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Transposing single and double quotes.

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  Transposing single and double quotes. Swifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 15:04 +0000
    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2012-02-29 17:27 +0200
      Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Swifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 18:17 +0000
    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 07:28 -0800
    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Jake Jarvis <pig_in_shoes@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-29 16:39 +0100
    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Swifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 18:27 +0000
      Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Swifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com> - 2012-02-29 18:38 +0000
      Re: Transposing single and double quotes. KR <kristian.rasmussen@broadpark.no.spam.com> - 2012-02-29 19:45 +0100
        Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-02-29 19:59 +0100
          Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-02-29 22:28 +0000
            Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2012-03-01 07:52 +0200
              Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-03-01 07:54 +0000
                Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2012-03-01 10:18 +0200
                  Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-03-01 15:21 +0000
                    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2012-03-01 18:07 +0200
                Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Erwin Moller <erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-01 10:30 +0100
                  Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-03-01 15:29 +0000
                  Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-03-01 22:10 +0100
                    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Erwin Moller <erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-02 11:02 +0100
                      Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-03-02 13:17 +0100
                        Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Erwin Moller <erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-05 10:09 +0100
                    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. John G Harris <john@nospam.demon.co.uk> - 2012-03-02 16:27 +0000
                Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Dr J R Stockton <reply1209@merlyn.demon.co.uk> - 2012-03-02 22:05 +0000
                  Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-03-03 08:35 +0000
      Re: Transposing single and double quotes. "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> - 2012-02-29 20:47 +0200
        Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Swifty <steve.j.swift@gmail.com> - 2012-03-01 07:19 +0000
      Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Gene Wirchenko <genew@ocis.net> - 2012-02-29 14:18 -0800
    Re: Transposing single and double quotes. Dr J R Stockton <reply1209@merlyn.demon.co.uk> - 2012-03-01 21:55 +0000

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#12285 — Transposing single and double quotes.

Take a look at http://swiftys.org.uk/click.html and then try clicking
the button; you'll get an alert.

Next, try to change the single quotes in the alert box to double
quotes. 

My first attempt was to replace \' with \" but this caused the alert
not to pop up. See http://swiftys.org.uk/click_ss.html

A person whose initials are PT suggested transposing all of the
quotes, which you can see at http://swiftys.org.uk/click_pt.html

This works.

Why? And why did my click_ss.html NOT work at all?

-- 
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

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#12287

2012-02-29 17:04, Swifty wrote:

> See http://swiftys.org.uk/click_ss.html

It does not work because it has
onClick="alert('Please do not click the \"Click\" button again')"
which parses as
onClick="alert('Please do not click the \"
followed by something that the browser more or less ignored.

The point is that in HTML, a quoted attribute value ends with the same 
quotation mark as it started with. The use of “\” does not change this 
the least; it has no special role in HTML, it’s just yet another data 
character.

> http://swiftys.org.uk/click_pt.html

There the quoted attribute value starts and ends properly with the same 
quotation mark and does not contain that character inside the value.

> And why did my click_ss.html NOT work at all?

This is how the button element looks like in Firebug:

<input type="SUBMIT" again')"="" button="" click\"="" 
onclick="alert('Please do not click the \" value="Click" title="Does 
this appear?" name="a">

and when the button is clicked on, the error console properly shows

unterminated string literal
   alert('Please do not click the \

By the way, you can avoid the mess by using proper English quotation 
marks in English, and generally language dependent quotation marks, e.g.

onClick="alert('Please do not click the “Click” button again')"

These marks have no special meaning in HTML or JavaScript, so they can 
be used as data characters without any “escaping.”

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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#12302

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 17:27:26 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:

>By the way, you can avoid the mess by using proper English quotation 
>marks in English, and generally language dependent quotation marks, e.g.
>
>onClick="alert('Please do not click the “Click” button again')"

I'll have to research how I'd enter those characters, as that would be
my preferred solution.

-- 
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

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#12288

On Feb 29, 10:04 am, Swifty <steve.j.sw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My first attempt was to replace \' with \" but this caused the alert
> not to pop up. Seehttp://swiftys.org.uk/click_ss.html
> [ ... ]
> Why? And why did my click_ss.html NOT work at all?

In the future, try to post at least a subset of the relevant code when
you're looking for analysis.  The archives for a group like this are
likely to last a lot longer than your test page, and someone else with
a similar problem might benefit from seeing the code.  (I understand
that this is not always possible, but it certainly is here.)

Here is the snippet in question:

| <INPUT
|    ... other attributes
|    onClick="alert('Please do not click the \"Click\" button again')"
| >

The problem is in the nesting of your Javascript inside HTML.  HTML
attributes do not have the backslash escape feature that Javascript
and many other programming languages do.  So here is what the HTML
parser thinks your onclick attribute is:

| onClick="alert('Please do not click the \"

and of course the Javascript interpreter does not know what to do with
a function whose body looks like this:

| alert('Please do not click the \"

The suggestion to use

| onClick='alert("Please do not click the \"Click\" button again")'

does not suffer this problem, as the Javascript interpreter will
receive:

| alert("Please do not click the \"Click\" button again")

which is syntactically valid.

  -- Scott

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#12289

On 29.02.2012 16:04, wrote Swifty:
> Take a look at http://swiftys.org.uk/click.html and then try clicking
> the button; you'll get an alert.
> 
> Next, try to change the single quotes in the alert box to double
> quotes. 
> 
> My first attempt was to replace \' with \" but this caused the alert
> not to pop up. See http://swiftys.org.uk/click_ss.html
> 
> A person whose initials are PT suggested transposing all of the
> quotes, which you can see at http://swiftys.org.uk/click_pt.html
> 
> This works.
> 
> Why? And why did my click_ss.html NOT work at all?
> 

| <INPUT onClick="alert('Please do not click the \"Click\" button again')">

The rules of HTML say that the value of that 'onclick' attribute is
everything between the first " and the very *next* ".

The piece of code made from 'onclick' attribute value thus reads as

| alert('Please do not click the \

and contains syntax errors.



By the way, which webbrowser are you using? Modern ones will report
script errors somewhere.

-- 
Jake Jarvis

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#12303

Thanks for the replies everyone! I now know why it failed, and how to
use Yukka's nice quotes (I found how to enter them). 

This leaves me with a different question: How, in HTML, would I enter
the JavaScript necessary to get an alert popup:

Please don't click the "Click" button again.

Now, no matter what I choose as the opening quote, I'll run into a
premature matching character in my text.
Yukka's quotes sidestep this issue, but I can see myself running into
it sooner or later.

I apologise if this has turned into an HTML question, but with my
level of understanding, I have no way of determining this.

-- 
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

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#12304

The final outcome: http://swiftys.org.uk/images/click.jpg

The "Select" button on the page is an example, and I tell my users
that it does nothing. I just know that they will click the button, so
I wanted to tell them not to (a reference to the Hitch Hiker's Guide
to the Galaxy).

-- 
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

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#12305

On 29.02.2012 19:27, Swifty wrote:
> 
> This leaves me with a different question: How, in HTML, would I enter
> the JavaScript necessary to get an alert popup:
> 
> Please don't click the "Click" button again.

onClick="alert('Please don\'t click the \u0022Click\u0022 button again')"

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#12307

KR wrote:

> On 29.02.2012 19:27, Swifty wrote:
>> This leaves me with a different question: How, in HTML, would I enter
>> the JavaScript necessary to get an alert popup:
>> 
>> Please don't click the "Click" button again.
> 
> onClick="alert('Please don\'t click the \u0022Click\u0022 button again')"

More compatible and more efficient, also easier to type and read:

  onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click" button 
again')"

or

  onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click" button 
again')"

or 

  onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click" button 
again')"

(no line-break in-between, respectively)

This works because CDATA attribute values like that of event-handler 
attributes are parsed, e. g. for character entity references and character 
references.  That approach has the additional advantage of leaving the 
script engine less to do as it will only "see" the double-quote character as 
passed on from the user agent.

Of course, spaghetti code in attribute values should be avoided in the first 
place.

We have discussed this here before.


PointedEars
-- 
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
  -- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm> (404-comp.)

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#12312

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote on 29 feb 2012 in comp.lang.javascript:

> More compatible and more efficient, also easier to type and read:
> 
>   onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click"
>   button again')"
> 

Incorrect.

alert() does not render string-content as html does,
" is not translated.

[chrome and ie9 tested]

-- 
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

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#12317

2012-03-01 0:28, Evertjan. wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote

Please don’t feed the troll. As you will most probably see, the troll 
will bite you, whether your comments are correct or (as here) not.

>>    onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click"
>>    button again')"
>>
>
> Incorrect.
>
> alert() does not render string-content as html does,

Of course HTML parsing rules don’t apply when alert() processes its 
argument. They do apply when an HTML document containing the above 
attribute specification is processed.

> " is not translated.

It is “translated” (recognized as an entity reference) when the 
attribute value is processed by an HTML user agent.

> [chrome and ie9 tested]

Not with the code under discussion.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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#12319

Jukka K. Korpela wrote on 01 mrt 2012 in comp.lang.javascript:

> 2012-03-01 0:28, Evertjan. wrote:
> 
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote
> 
> Please don’t feed the troll. As you will most probably see, the troll 
> will bite you, whether your comments are correct or (as here) not.

This NG is not about being bitten, but about Javascript, which existence 
is not even recognized by Thomas.
 
>>>    onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click"
>>>    button again')"
>>
>> Incorrect.
>>
>> alert() does not render string-content as html does,
> 
> Of course HTML parsing rules don’t apply when alert() processes its 
> argument. 

Perhaps "of cource" to you, but this is a repeating error made by me and 
many others, while we do know better.

And not "of cource", since it would be much nicer if html-parsing of the 
alert() string was done.

> They do apply when an HTML document containing the above 
> attribute specification is processed.

That is not the part I was commenting on.

>> " is not translated.
> 
> It is “translated” (recognized as an entity reference) when the 
> attribute value is processed by an HTML user agent.

Quot non in casu.

>> [chrome and ie9 tested]
> 
> Not with the code under discussion.

This is the code under discussion in my posting:

>>>    onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the "Click"
>>>    button again')"

-- 
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

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#12320

2012-03-01 9:54, Evertjan. wrote:

>> Of course HTML parsing rules don’t apply when alert() processes its
>> argument.
>
> Perhaps "of cource" to you, but this is a repeating error made by me and
> many others, while we do know better.

It’s “of course” after understanding, at a very basic level, what HTML 
is and what JavaScript is. Practical confusion is a different matter—it 
often happens that we forget or overlook things that we surely know 
better, but then you should slap on your head and say “of course”!

> And not "of cource", since it would be much nicer if html-parsing of the
> alert() string was done.

No, that would be all wrong. If JavaScript code has been embedded into 
an HTML document, then HTML parsing has already been performed when 
alert() gets its food. If it has not, then it would be absurd to apply 
HTML parsing rules (e.g., when JavaScript code is used in a context that 
has nothing to do with HTML).

>> It is “translated” (recognized as an entity reference) when the
>> attribute value is processed by an HTML user agent.
>
> Quot non in casu.

“How many not in [a/the] case”! Does not sound to make sense, whatever 
it is intended to relate to.

>>> [chrome and ie9 tested]
>>
>> Not with the code under discussion.
>
> This is the code under discussion in my posting:
>
>>>>     onclick="window.alert('Please don\'t click the"Click"
>>>>     button again')"

So what does the following document do in your tests?

<!doctype html>
<title>Test</title>
<a onclick=
"window.alert('Please don\'t click the &quot;Click&quot; button again')"
 >foo</a>

(I hope your are not referring to the effects of line breaks introduced 
by news posting or reading software. It is true that the resident troll 
himself might attack such issues in other people’s postings, but you 
should know better.)

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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#12322

Jukka K. Korpela wrote on 01 mrt 2012 in comp.lang.javascript:

[..]

> <a onclick=
> "window.alert('Please don\'t click the &quot;Click&quot; button again')" 
> >foo</a>

mmm, yes, that is different from:

<script type='text/javascript'>
window.alert('Please don\'t click the &quot;Click&quot; button again');
</script>

But why?


-- 
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

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#12324

2012-03-01 17:21, Evertjan. wrote:

>> <a onclick=
>> "window.alert('Please don\'t click the&quot;Click&quot; button again')"
>>> foo</a>
>
> mmm, yes, that is different from:
>
> <script type='text/javascript'>
> window.alert('Please don\'t click the&quot;Click&quot; button again');
> </script>
>
> But why?

Because by HTML rules up to and including HTML 4.01, and in actual 
browser behavior for HTML (as opposite to XHTML), the content model of 
<script> elements is CDATA. This means that normal HTML processing is 
suppressed: the content is taken as data, not interpreted as markup, 
except for the end tag </script>, which is recognized.

This means that the literal string &quot; is passed to the JavaScript 
interpreter.

Within an attribute value, entity references are recognized, and instead 
of the &quot; reference, the ASCII quotation mark (") is passed.

-- 
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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#12321

On 3/1/2012 8:54 AM, Evertjan. wrote:

<snip>

> Quot non in casu.
>

Hi Evertjan,

Since my Latin leaves a lot to be desired, I had to Google that one.
But:
Your search - "Quot non in casu" - did not match any documents.

How disappointing.
But "Quod" instead of "Quot" seems to mean:
"which is not the case", which makes sense.

I learn something new every day. :-)

When it comes to Latin I always say:
ne quid nimis


Regards,
Erwin Moller

-- 
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without 
evidence."
-- Christopher Hitchens

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#12323

Erwin Moller wrote on 01 mrt 2012 in comp.lang.javascript:

> On 3/1/2012 8:54 AM, Evertjan. wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> Quot non in casu.
>>
> 
> Hi Evertjan,
> 
> Since my Latin leaves a lot to be desired, I had to Google that one.
> But:
> Your search - "Quot non in casu" - did not match any documents.

> How disappointing.
> But "Quod" instead of "Quot" seems to mean:
> "which is not the case", which makes sense.

You are quite right, in sensu strictior.
 
> I learn something new every day. :-)
> 
> When it comes to Latin I always say:
> ne quid nimis

Panta rhei, kai ouden menei.

-- 
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

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#12329

Erwin Moller wrote:

> On 3/1/2012 8:54 AM, Evertjan. wrote:
> <snip>
>> Quot non in casu.
> 
> Hi Evertjan,

This is Network News, not e-mail.

> […]
> But "Quod" instead of "Quot" seems to mean:
> "which is not the case", which makes sense.

Do you mean that the Latin expression as such makes sense, or do you mean 
that it makes sense in this context?  Because if you mean the latter, you 
are mistaken, as is the pseudonymous address-munging author of the precursor 
of your posting (whom I had therefore killfiled long ago, but who does not 
appear to have noticed that).

The context matters in which String values are used.  It is irrelevant that 
the String value is used as argument to the alert() method here.  It is very 
relevant that the String value is part of an (X)HTML attribute value, 
because that is parsed by the markup parser of the user agent *before* 
control is passed on to the script engine.

There must be an error in the Matrix [1].


PointedEars
___________
[1] No, not *that* Matrix, although it will see an extensive update soon.
-- 
Prototype.js was written by people who don't know javascript for people
who don't know javascript. People who don't know javascript are not
the best source of advice on designing systems that use javascript.
  -- Richard Cornford, cljs, <f806at$ail$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>

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#12342

On 3/1/2012 10:10 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
> Erwin Moller wrote:
>
>> On 3/1/2012 8:54 AM, Evertjan. wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Quot non in casu.
>>
>> Hi Evertjan,
>
> This is Network News, not e-mail.
>

"Network News"? Is that an old or new cable show?
I call it usenet or newsgroups, but of course, you can call it "Network 
News".
And I am fully aware it isn't the same as private e-mail.

What is the reason you tell me this exactly?
Do you object to the fact I uses Evertjan's name to start the posting 
instead of something cold and impersonal?

Newsgroups are run by people.


>> […]
>> But "Quod" instead of "Quot" seems to mean:
>> "which is not the case", which makes sense.
>
> Do you mean that the Latin expression as such makes sense, or do you mean
> that it makes sense in this context?

A false dichotomy. Try them elsewhere.

I mean it makes sense in the context used by Evertjan (in the sense that 
it conveyed what he wanted to say) BUT I don't have a strong opinion 
about which of you is right (until I read Korpela's response).
So I am not stating you or Evertjan was right since you both know more 
about the subject at hand than I do.


> Because if you mean the latter, you
> are mistaken, as is the pseudonymous address-munging author of the precursor
> of your posting (whom I had therefore killfiled long ago, but who does not
> appear to have noticed that).

And yes, that "pseudonymous address-munging author" was the very same 
person: me.
Feel free to killfile erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl if that email address 
doesn't pass your naming conventions too.

Furthermore I noticed you killfiled me when I had to correct the 
nonsense you spread in comp.lang.php on a few occasions and you didn't 
respond.

But it suits me fine: Killfile to your heart's content.
Don't forget your Ninja Turtle's warcry when you are at it.
Or some Star Trek &quot;.


>
> The context matters in which String values are used.  It is irrelevant that
> the String value is used as argument to the alert() method here.  It is very
> relevant that the String value is part of an (X)HTML attribute value,
> because that is parsed by the markup parser of the user agent *before*
> control is passed on to the script engine.
>

You are most of the time a didactic disaster, as in this case.
When you have a good day you sometimes explain things nicely, but most 
of the time you sound like some autistic nerd with a huge minority 
complex. You try to convince people of your huge knowledge and 
intellect, but for reasons beyond your understanding, most people don't 
appreciate you. Strange, isn't it?
If you like to talk about that some more, feel free to contact me by email.

Luckily Jukka Korpela DID explain in this very thread when and why 
&quot; gets interpreted as an entity reference.

<snipped irrelevant Matrix jokes>

As usual, with high regards,
Erwin Moller (now killfiled again by Thomas Lahn)


-- 
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without 
evidence."
-- Christopher Hitchens

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#12343

Erwin Moller wrote:

> Newsgroups are run by people.

By many people, not just two of them.  All of them are potential readers.

>>> […]
>>> But "Quod" instead of "Quot" seems to mean:
>>> "which is not the case", which makes sense.
>>
>> Do you mean that the Latin expression as such makes sense, or do you mean
>> that it makes sense in this context?
> 
> A false dichotomy. Try them elsewhere.

It is not a dichotonomy.  It is trying to determine what you meant by that 
comment.

> I mean it makes sense in the context used by Evertjan (in the sense that
> it conveyed what he wanted to say)

So, the former.

> BUT I don't have a strong opinion about which of you is right (until I
> read Korpela's response).

Which show that you have not been paying attention.

> So I am not stating you or Evertjan was right since you both know more
> about the subject at hand than I do.

You would react differently if you would answer truthfully about this.

>> Because if you mean the latter, you
>> are mistaken, as is the pseudonymous address-munging author of the
>> precursor of your posting (whom I had therefore killfiled long ago, but
>> who does not appear to have noticed that).
> 
> And yes, that "pseudonymous address-munging author" was the very same
> person: me.

No, it was not you.  For a start, you are (hopefully) not using a pseudonym.

> Feel free to killfile erwinmollerusenet@xs4all.nl if that email address
> doesn't pass your naming conventions too.

Does that mean this is not an e-mail address either?

> Furthermore I noticed you killfiled me when I had to correct the
> nonsense you spread in comp.lang.php on a few occasions and you didn't
> respond.

Those are two fallacies, one of them ad hominem and (by intention) probably 
also ad populum.  Rest assured that you have no clue whom you are replying 
to.
 
> But it suits me fine: Killfile to your heart's content.
> Don't forget your Ninja Turtle's warcry when you are at it.
> Or some Star Trek ".

I can see that you are not paying attention and cannot be reasoned with, so 
further consideration of your postings is most certainly a waste of time.

> Luckily Jukka Korpela DID explain in this very thread when and why
> " gets interpreted as an entity reference.

I had already explained it before.


PointedEars
-- 
Danny Goodman's books are out of date and teach practices that are
positively harmful for cross-browser scripting.
  -- Richard Cornford, cljs, <cife6q$253$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk> (2004)

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