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Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty

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Jon Ribbens wrote:

> On 2016-01-20, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>> Cezary Tomczyk wrote:
>>> I am not sure whether using implicitly labels is a good idea. I think
>>> there were some problems with screen readers, but I am not quite sure at
>>> the moment.
>> I would like to see evidence of that.  I would understand problems with
>> layout engines (like dotted borders around the checkbox on focus), but
>> screen readers?
> 
> WCAG 1.0 checkpoint 12.4 says "Associate labels explicitly with their
> controls". "Explicitly" probably means "using the 'for' attribute" as
> opposed to "implicitly by nesting the control within the label
> element", because that's the way the HTML 4.01 spec uses those terms.
> It's not entirely clear what the W3C meant when they wrote the
> standard, because WCAG 1.0 is a mess.

Not only that; it has been succeeded by WCAG 2.0 more than 5 years ago, and

,-<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/>
| 
| […] Although it is possible to conform either to WCAG 1.0 or to WCAG 2.0
| (or both), the W3C recommends that new and updated content use WCAG 2.0.
| The W3C also recommends that Web accessibility policies reference WCAG
| 2.0.
 
>   https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL

HTML 4.01, too, is no longer the current version of HTML.  It has been 
succeeded by HTML5 more than a year ago:

<https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-html5-20141028/>

> There was presumably a reason for this rule,

Yes, but not only is that assumption not enough for a design decision, is 
irrelevant now that more recent layout engines are no longer based on HTML 
4.01.

> On the other hand, WCAG 2.0 Technique H44 describes a way of
> conforming to WCAG 2.0 by using the explicit 'for' attribute,
> and there is no other technique I can see at a glance which
> describes a way of conforming by using nesting instead. On the
> other other hand, WCAG 2.0 Failure Technique F68, which is also
> relevant, does mention the implicit nesting method. It's not
> entirely clear what the W3C meant when they wrote the standard,
> because WCAG 2.0 is a mess.

I was not of that opinion before, but reading this I have to agree: it is a 
mess :)
 
So, given these contradictory recommendations regarding accessibility, one 
should do what I said in the first place: If there is no known problem with 
nested elements, do not insist on using “for” and “id” attributes instead.

-- 
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.de/faq> | SVN: <http://PointedEars.de/wsvn/>
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | ES Matrix: <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix>
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Bunyip <bunyip@koalanet.com.au> - 2016-01-20 13:28 +1000
  Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty JJ <jj4public@vfemail.net> - 2016-01-20 12:30 +0700
    Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Bunyip <bunyip@koalanet.com.au> - 2016-01-20 17:55 +1000
      Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty JJ <jj4public@vfemail.net> - 2016-01-20 19:29 +0700
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-01-20 13:46 +0100
  Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 08:23 +0000
    Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-20 15:52 +0100
      Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 15:43 +0000
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-20 17:15 +0100
          Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-01-20 17:53 +0000
            Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-20 20:39 +0100
              Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-01-20 22:46 +0000
          Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 07:53 +0000
            Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-21 10:52 +0100
              Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Cezary Tomczyk <cezary.tomczyk@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 10:26 +0000
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-22 00:07 +0100
  Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-01-20 10:28 +0100
    Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Bunyip <bunyip@koalanet.com.au> - 2016-01-21 08:05 +1000
      Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-21 00:59 +0100
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 03:17 +0100
          Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-21 08:54 +0100
            Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 12:17 +0100
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2016-01-21 14:16 +0000
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-21 19:52 -0800
          Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-22 09:48 +0100
            Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-22 10:45 -0800
              Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-23 19:41 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-24 17:51 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-25 19:46 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 11:09 -0800
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-01-23 22:22 +0000
        Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-27 11:06 -0800
          Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-28 14:46 +0100
            Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-28 10:30 -0800
              Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-28 20:06 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-28 23:32 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-01-29 09:05 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-29 06:02 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-29 20:54 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2016-01-29 10:36 +0000
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-02-09 04:39 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2016-02-09 18:07 +0000
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-01-29 09:32 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-29 20:34 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-01-29 16:50 -0300
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-01-30 03:31 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-30 04:19 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-01-30 05:01 +0100
              Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-01-28 16:39 -0300
            Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-29 06:04 -0800
              Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-29 20:54 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-29 14:55 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-30 04:55 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-30 15:48 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-01-31 21:02 +0100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-01-31 13:08 -0800
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2016-02-01 12:28 +1100
                Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2016-02-01 17:58 -0800
  Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2016-01-20 06:25 -0800
  Re: Give alert if form checkbox array is empty Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-01-20 12:54 -0300

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