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Re: Difference between client and server side cookie

From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.javascript
Subject Re: Difference between client and server side cookie
Date 2016-03-14 01:54 +0100
Organization PointedEars Software (PES)
Message-ID <4382627.JkLruRRTPY@PointedEars.de> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <nc287b$frb$1@dont-email.me> <XnsA5CA6DFFFD47Eeejj99@194.109.6.166> <87wpp67j6w.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <2325956.yKQUHyJ2TD@PointedEars.de> <87y49m54i6.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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Ben Bacarisse wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> writes:
>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> He's saying that there are sometimes cookies "on the server" --
>>> specifically they are sent there every time a client makes a request for
>>> which a cookie is relevant.
>>
>> In fact, only cookie *names* and *values* are sent with every HTTP
>> request that applies to their “domain”, “path” and “secure” attributes,
>> unless they have expired (as specified by the “expires” attribute in a
>> former HTTP response header “Set-Cookie” field value or in the value
>> assigned to the document.cookie property).
>>
>>> Where are they while the server is using them if not "on the server"?
>>
>> Still stored on the client machine.
> 
> And on the server while the server is processing the request.

Nonsense.

>> Cookies are data (stored in local files) only whose *names* and *values* 
>> are incorporated into a HTTP request header “Cookie” field value.
> 
> But it is not a cookie only when in some client's store.

Yes, it is.

> The RFC (6265) defines a cookie as a name/value pair

No, it does not:

| 4.2.2.  Semantics
| 
|    Each cookie-pair represents a cookie stored by the user agent.  The
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|    cookie-pair contains the cookie-name and cookie-value the user agent
|    received in the Set-Cookie header.
| 
|    Notice that the cookie attributes are not returned. […]

> and it is still a cookie as that name/value pair is sent over the wire. 

No, it is not.  A representation is _not_ the real thing.  Like in 
ECMAScript where a string representation of an object is _not_ the object 
itself.

> This is clear from the language the RFC uses:

Your interpretation is not supported by that RFC; in fact, it is refuted by 
that.
 
>   "The semantics of individual cookies in the Cookie header are not
>   defined"
> 
>   "if the Cookie header contains two cookies with the same name"
> 
>   "if the user agent fails to return one or more cookies in the Cookie
>   header"

By the RFCs own definition, the Cookie header (field) value is _not_ a 
cookie, too.  It is a comma-separated list of cookie name-value pairs 
(“cookie-pairs”) sent by the client to the server.  The RFC is
contradicting itself here partially, due to imprecise wording.
 
>   "The active network attacker can intercept these cookies"
> 
>   "the user agent will include that cookie in HTTP requests"

Fallacy: Straw man.  The first phrase is referring to the information sent 
from the server to the client, not vice-versa, as the value of each
“Set-Cookie” *response* header field does constitute a cookie on the client
*if it is stored there*.  As for the second phrase, see above.

> and so on.

Fallacy: Hasty generalization.

> It is perfectly reasonable to talk of the cookie in transit,
> in the header and arriving (to be stored however temporarily) on the
> server.

No, it is not.
 
>>> It's a small point, but it's not wrong.
>>
>> Yes, it is.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#Implementation>
> 
> The RFC is definitive.  If this Wikipedia article contradicts it,
> Wikipedia needs to be corrected.

You are, in the best case, misinterpreting the RFC (which is only a 
*Proposed* Standard now, so in no way definitive; see RFC 2026, §4.4.1) 
completely.  In the worst case, you are quoting from it selectively 
deliberately in order to support your opinion.  Fallacy: Cherry picking.
 
-- 
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.de/faq> | SVN: <http://PointedEars.de/wsvn/>
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | ES Matrix: <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix>
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

Difference between client and server side cookie bit-naughty@hotmail.com - 2016-03-12 05:38 -0800
  Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-12 15:02 +0100
  Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-03-12 16:19 +0100
    Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-12 23:32 +0100
      Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-12 20:23 -0300
        Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-13 10:48 +0100
          Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-03-13 10:42 +0000
            Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-13 12:05 +0100
              Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-03-13 11:46 +0000
            Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-13 13:46 +0100
              Re: Difference between client and server side cookie bit-naughty@hotmail.com - 2016-03-13 07:07 -0700
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-13 16:34 +0100
              Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-03-13 23:42 +0000
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-14 01:54 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-14 10:36 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-14 11:43 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-14 10:21 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-14 15:01 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-14 11:52 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-14 17:06 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-14 13:17 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-14 19:43 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-14 16:17 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-14 23:22 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-14 19:38 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-14 23:44 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-14 21:49 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-15 10:18 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-15 11:39 -0300
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2016-03-15 09:40 +0000
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-15 12:08 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Stefan Weiss <krewecherl@gmail.com> - 2016-03-15 13:22 +0100
                Re: Difference between client and server side cookie "Evertjan." <exxjxw.hannivoort@inter.nl.net> - 2016-03-15 15:53 +0100
          Re: Difference between client and server side cookie Aleksandro <aleksandro@gmx.com> - 2016-03-13 13:51 -0300
    Re: Difference between client and server side cookie bit-naughty@hotmail.com - 2016-03-13 07:09 -0700

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