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Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes

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Chris Beall wrote:

> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> Chris Beall wrote:
>>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> Based on previous experience, I would advise greater care with
>> statements on quirksmode.org.  Less than with w3schools.com, but still.
> 
> […] With regard to the reversal, by IE, of multiple class names, I
> verified it via experiment (around about IE 6, as I recall) and coded to
> compensate (two lines added).  It is possible this is no longer necessary,
> […]

I have tested something similar with IE 8 today (we have still customers 
using it) and at least the Developer Tools show multiple adjacent class 
selectors in different order than in the source code.  They appear to be 
sorted alphanumerically.
 
>>> but did not extensively research, that some more complex selectors, such
>>> as groups, may be split into multiple rules within 'your browser', which
>>> I interpreted to mean 'the DOM as built by your browser'.
>> I see.  But does that not show *again* that this/your current approach is
>> inefficient, and unreliable at best?
> 
> It has been reliable for several years, cross-browser.

For a distinct subset of stylesheets only.  I prefer general, reusable 
approaches that work in the target environments regardless how the code 
operated on is written.  I am not alone there.  And that is not because
I *am* doing commercial work; I do not-for-profit Web development in my
free time as well.  Working full-time, free time has become even more 
precious; I do not want to waste it on code rewrites.

>> I also do not think that style rules are part of the document tree.
> 
> If that were true, my modification of style rules would not work at all,
> but it does.

Your logic is flawed.

> On Firefox, using Firebug, I see the following (greatly abridged)
> structure:
> document
> - styleSheets
> -- 0 (and probably others, per length at this level)
> --- cssRules
> ---- 0 (and probably others, per length at this level)
> ----- style
> ------ many many style property names and values, which can be modified
> and are acted upon by the UA

I think it is a specious argument that uses solely the *display* of 
information in *one* browser with *one* extension to define a technical 
term.

>> […]  So you can also not modify the declarations of a ruleset without
>> checking that it does not consist of grouped selectors, so that the
>> modification would not have side-effects.
> 
> I do not have to check because I do not usually use grouped selectors and
> certainly not when I plan to modify the properties beneath them.

What does your response have to do with my argument?
 
>> But since items should not be hidden by default (think of NoScript &
>> friends), it should be
>>
>>   ul.filtered.no-foo li.foo {
>>     /* or transitions */
>>     display: none;
>>   }
>>
>> With the latter approach, you could hide all items of category “foo” with
>> the one-liner
>>
>>   ul.className += " no-foo";
>>
>> assuming that “ul” refers to the ancestor/parent element (here: an “ul”
>> element).
> 
> I *think* I followed that, but I'm still not clear on the advantage.

It is supposed to work everywhere (where both client-side scripting and CSS 
are supported and enabled), and it does not require elaborate code to do so.

> Perhaps that's because long ago, when I started modifying my list, I saw
> the need for a function, which I then wrote.  As a result, if I want to
> hide all the list items of class 'foo', I make a one-line call to that
> function.

It is a common fallacy to assume that abstracting complexity away removes it 
from the equation.  You have actually increased total complexity because the 
function call has a (considerable) price, too.  Script profilers are 
contained in several modern in-browser developer tools, so you do not have 
to take anyone’s word for it.
 
> I suspect the key difference in our approaches is that I am doing very
> simple things and you, apparently, are doing rather complex ones.

I have been adressing *your* use-case (as you presented it here).  Besides, 
I cannot think of anything simpler than filtering a list by category with 
regard to the use of CSS class names, except simple one-element-specific 
property changes.

>>> Suggestion: When using an acronym for the first time, spell it out in
>>> full, followed by the acronym within parentheses.
>> Not feasible or useful (in Usenet).  There is no particular “first time”
>> there to begin with.
> 
> How about 'first time within a thread'?

AISB, there is no particular “first time” in Usenet.  When the posting in 
which a term was explained had expired, what then?  One would have to repeat 
the explanation in every posting to make sure that such an (incredibly lazy) 
reader would not have to consult the archives.

And, in fact, most things have been asked before, and *are* available in 
public archives which you should read before posting.  You are simply asking 
for too much here.

> Again, while this may introduce some redundancy, I have found it helpful

“*Some* redundancy”? :->  Do you really think what you are asking has never 
been asked (here) before?

> when trying to read a 4-year-old thread, outside the context of others
> from the period.

There you have it.  RTFM, STFW.
 
>> The recommendations for text formatting in Usenet are: *bold/emphasized*,
>> _underline/corrected_, and /italic/ (I use the last one for foreign
>> words; there are others who use it for emphasis).  At least the
>> Mozilla(/5.0)-based newsreaders implement it that way.
> 
> Yes, but not everyone uses those

Hence “at least”.

> and I had no way of knowing if you were among those who do not.

The newsreader that I am using is irrelevant; the *plain-text* formatting is 
used for displaying a posted, primarily not composing a to-be-posted 
message, by several newsreaders.

> It is an unfortunate coincidence that the position of the word allowed for
> easy mis-interpretation.

I do not think a *careful* reader *willing to do some research* could have 
misunderstood.  There is an “e.g.” in there, after all.  However, English is 
not my native language, so I *might* be mistaken.
 
>>> and hence did not understand the subsequent syntax.
>> When someone knows CSS it can be assumed by now that at least the
>> *existence* of LESS is common knowledge to them (it will be hard to find
>> employment in Web development if you do not know what it is).  Especially
>> here as there is an ECMAScript-based variant of LESS both server-side,
>> for Node.js, and client-side.
> 
> Anything can be assumed.  It is always risky.  In this case your
> assumption was incorrect.  FYI, I am not seeking employment.

And JFYI: This is not a support forum, it is a place for technical 
discussions; help is a (welcome) by-product of them.  *You* are the one who 
seeks information from more experienced people this way.  So it is *your* 
task to word questions and read answers carefully, and ask about all things 
that you do not understand (using the appropriate medium).  It is _not_ my 
or anyone else’s tasks to answer in a form that is easily understandable to 
you, to anticipate your wishes, or to foresee your misinterpretations.

IOW: It is simply not practical and too much to ask for to explain 
everything in advance.  This is all our free time, and you are getting 
decades of accumulated knowledge and experience for free here.  You get
what you paid for.  TINSTAAFL.
 
>> You can trim, but you also can summarize quotes, using the “[summary]”
>> notation.
> 
> I'll try to remember that.  I was not aware of it.  I have noticed that
> some people don't like to have their original words altered.

Hence the rectangular brackets.

<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>

-- 
PointedEars
FAQ: <http://PointedEars.de/faq> | SVN: <http://PointedEars.de/wsvn/>
Twitter: @PointedEars2 | ES Matrix: <http://PointedEars.de/es-matrix>
Please do not Cc: me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-27 16:30 -0400
  Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2014-10-27 14:07 -0700
    Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-27 17:43 -0400
    Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2014-10-28 09:48 +1100
      Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Michael Haufe (TNO)" <tno@thenewobjective.com> - 2014-10-27 22:45 -0700
        Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2014-10-28 19:31 +1100
          Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-28 09:59 -0400
          Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-28 15:26 +0100
          Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2014-10-31 12:29 +1100
  Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-27 22:20 +0100
    Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-27 18:11 -0400
      Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-27 23:45 +0100
        Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-27 20:38 -0400
          Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-28 19:49 +0100
            Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-28 17:56 -0400
              Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-29 21:07 +0100
                Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-30 12:50 -0400
                Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-30 19:13 +0100
                Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-30 17:17 -0400
                Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-31 20:35 +0100
        Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-27 23:19 -0400
          Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2014-10-28 10:11 +0000
            Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-10-28 11:42 +0000
              Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-28 09:52 -0400
            Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-28 09:49 -0400
              Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes John Harris <niam@jghnorth.org.uk.invalid> - 2014-10-29 15:48 +0000
          Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-28 15:54 +0100
        Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2014-10-30 08:12 -0700
  Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Joao Rodrigues <groups_jr-1@yahoo.com.br> - 2014-10-29 15:23 -0200
    Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-29 21:47 +0100
      Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-10-30 07:32 +0100
    Re: DOM style object property names with vendor prefixes "Chris Beall" <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> - 2014-10-30 10:47 -0400

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