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JavaFX disappearing in Java 11

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  JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Chris Riesbeck <Chris.Riesbeck@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 13:10 -0600
    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 14:15 -0500
      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 08:30 +0800
        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 19:37 -0500
          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 11:09 +0800
          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 05:19 -0800
            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-10 00:02 +0100
              Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-09 19:28 -0500
                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-10 03:12 +0100
                  Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-09 21:28 -0500
                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-10 21:41 +0800
                      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-10 21:09 -0500
                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-11 10:46 +0800
                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-10 22:39 -0500
            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-09 19:23 -0500
        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Ricardo Palomares Martinez <rpm.NOADS@proyectonave.es> - 2018-03-10 19:20 +0100
          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-11 10:49 +0800
            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-03-12 15:36 -0700
    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 11:49 -0800
      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 15:00 -0500
        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 12:32 -0800
          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 16:51 -0500
            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-09 00:57 +0100
              Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 19:20 -0500
                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 19:23 -0500
                  Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-08 19:28 -0500
                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-03-09 08:44 +0000
              Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-10 00:03 +0100
                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-09 19:20 -0500
                  Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-10 03:07 +0100
                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-09 21:32 -0500
                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-10 09:50 +0100
                      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-10 16:39 +0100
                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-10 21:06 -0500
                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 06:50 -0700
                            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-12 23:41 +0800
                              Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 09:10 -0700
                                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-13 07:33 +0800
                                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-12 20:15 -0400
                                  Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 05:46 -0700
                                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-13 09:55 -0400
                                  Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 06:42 -0700
                                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-13 09:50 -0400
                                      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 06:57 -0700
                                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-13 10:08 -0400
                                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 07:58 -0700
                                            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-15 12:23 -0400
                                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2018-03-13 02:28 +0100
                                  Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-03-13 11:39 +0000
                                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-13 07:54 -0400
                                      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-03-13 12:45 +0000
                                    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 05:42 -0700
                                      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-13 23:27 +0100
                                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-14 08:35 +0800
                                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 05:03 -0700
                                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 05:08 -0700
                                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-15 11:50 +0100
                                            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 05:47 -0700
                                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> - 2018-03-15 12:28 +0000
                                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 12:08 -0700
                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-13 00:58 +0100
                            Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-12 20:02 -0400
                      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-10 21:03 -0500
                        Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 05:45 -0700
                          Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-12 20:07 -0400
              Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Uniqua Lykerd <uniqualykerd@protonmail.com> - 2018-03-29 21:22 -0400
                Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte.net> - 2018-03-30 04:37 +0200
    Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Gianluca Bonetti <gianluca.bonetti@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 09:59 -0700
      Re: JavaFX disappearing in Java 11 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2018-03-12 20:17 -0400

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#38172

On 3/13/2018 8:46 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> Webstart just makes sense. They just click a link to a JNLP which
> downloads the jars they need for the client side classes and starts the
> client JVM. We then create a client-server application from this by
> opening a socket connection to a server running JVM.

> This change doesn't make sense, though so far I'm not making sense of
> Java 9.  I tried to compile my project in 9 and it complained I had
> multiple dependencies with the same class names, in different
> packages.  These are in 3rd party jars so I don't know how to fix
> that.
It is not urgent.

"Oracle will extend support for Web Start in Java SE 8 from March, 2019, 
through at least March 2025."

 > Is there a new technology that does what webstart does?  I'm not clear
 > what they're saying about jlink.

jlink is packing a custom install.

I don't see it as a direct replacement of JWS.

Arne

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#38170

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 8:15:14 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Well -according to the announcement that triggered this thread, then
> Java Web Start is dead as well.
> 

Of course being declared "dead" doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Some things are dead because the dependency disappeared.  Browsers are dropping support for Flash so it will soon be officially dead, unless you keep your users running an old browser.  Browsers killed the applets but JNLP shouldn't require browsers to support it even over the internet, though we're only using it to run a client server app within the local network.
We still login to a government vendor portal using activeX.

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#38171

On 3/13/2018 9:42 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 8:15:14 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Well -according to the announcement that triggered this thread, then
>> Java Web Start is dead as well.
> 
> Of course being declared "dead" doesn't mean it doesn't work.

"Oracle will not include Java Web Start in Java SE 11 (18.9 LTS) and later."

Arne

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#38173

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 9:50:52 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> "Oracle will not include Java Web Start in Java SE 11 (18.9 LTS) and later."
> 
> Arne

Not include means it's a separate download or there will be no existing version that works with 11?  If the latter, than webstart users just can't allow Java newer than 10 (or 8?) until an equivalent alternative is available.

Again I'm not sure what that article was referring to, "will need to 
transition to other deployment technologies such as the jlink and/or 
third party packaging and deployment solutions" but if they're replacing javaws for some reason there should be some way to do what it does.

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#38174

On 3/13/2018 9:57 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 9:50:52 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> "Oracle will not include Java Web Start in Java SE 11 (18.9 LTS) and later."
> 
> Not include means it's a separate download or there will be no
> existing version that works with 11?

The wording later in the text seem to indicate the latter.

 From Oracle. Maybe an open source project will evolve to fill the gap. 
"Maybe".

>                                     If the latter, than webstart users
> just can't allow Java newer than 10 (or 8?) until an equivalent
> alternative is available.

8 and 11 are LTS.

9 and 10 are not LTS.

So 8 may be best.

Arne

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#38175

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> 
>  From Oracle. Maybe an open source project will evolve to fill the gap. 
> "Maybe".
> 

So, what does webstart do?

1) Verifies a specific version of Java is installed.  Is there another easy way to do this?

2) Delivers an app, copying jars, and verifying publisher.  How do other delivery services work ie Steam?
I bought a computer last year which came with 5 games.  They all require a login to a digital service, which you connect to each time you run the game and it downloads any updates before you start.

3) Checks your OS <resources os="Windows">.  Normally everyone runs Windows so this is not an issue.  We do have one user with a Mac but they don't run our application on it.

4) Displays a splash screen.  The JNLP splash disappears anyway as soon as it gets into the initial class, and our application requires some loading before it displays the first window, so we already have a custom splash window to cover this time.

5) Runs the application.  Isn't there another (platform independent) way to execute the client command of javaw.exe and pass the corresponding arguments as specified in the <application-desc main-class=> tag?

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#38186

On 3/13/2018 10:58 AM, Eric Douglas wrote:
> So, what does webstart do?
> 
> 1) Verifies a specific version of Java is installed.  Is there
> another easy way to do this?
> 
> 2) Delivers an app, copying jars, and verifying publisher.  How do
> other delivery services work ie Steam? I bought a computer last year
> which came with 5 games.  They all require a login to a digital
> service, which you connect to each time you run the game and it
> downloads any updates before you start.
> 
> 3) Checks your OS <resources os="Windows">.  Normally everyone runs
> Windows so this is not an issue.  We do have one user with a Mac but
> they don't run our application on it.
> 
> 4) Displays a splash screen.  The JNLP splash disappears anyway as
> soon as it gets into the initial class, and our application requires
> some loading before it displays the first window, so we already have
> a custom splash window to cover this time.
> 
> 5) Runs the application.  Isn't there another (platform independent)
> way to execute the client command of javaw.exe and pass the
> corresponding arguments as specified in the <application-desc
> main-class=> tag?

Java Web Start is not that unique.

.NET click once did the same thing.

Various app stores does something similar.

Somebody already mentioned Steam.

The only thing that made Java Web Start unique was that it
shipped with Java.

Arne

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#38164

On 12-03-18 17:10, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 11:41:11 AM UTC-4, Richard Maher wrote:
>>>
>>> Web "deployment" is relatively simple.  If you can write code that
>>> will run in any browser, it will run on any device, a PC, a Mac, an
>>> Android tablet or phone, an iOS tablet or phone, or a Linux machine
>>> (though I think the percentage of users running Linux as the client
>>> is relatively small).  They should already have a web browser and
>>> should not have to install anything.  Probably the most annoying part
>>> of coding is adjusting the look for various screen sizes.
>>
>> IMHO Only for tiny devices such as watches. Linear scalability for
>> phones/tablets, and desktops works. God bless CSS display: flex; et al.
>>
> You do have to write different code to allow different screen sizes.
> For instance pull up www.philadelphiaeagles.com.  If I open this in my desktop browser it does look horrible if I shrink my window too small.  If  I open this in my iPhone it is a completely different site. (it redirects from www. to m.)  My company's web site was horrible on mobile for a long time.  They've outsourced that to a company that is rewriting it so the mobile looks better now, just loads slow as I believe the image file sizes are too big.
> 

You always have to accommodate for different screen sizes if an 
application may be used on different types of devices or if you want to 
allow users to work with smaller windows sizes (remember cascade/tile?).

Making a responsive HTML+CSS client using ems and a tine set of media 
queries makes that infinitely simpler than any other technique I have 
ever used. Pixel based windows layouts where very hard to behave like 
what we would now call responsive (I have done it for about ten years). 
Using Swing layouts was even worse (remember GirdBagLayout? That sucked 
big time).

Our web applications come with CSS templates and a "Style design" GUI 
that let's users configure their own fonts, colors, backgrounds, widths, 
margins etc. for various user interface elements into named "themes". 
They can then apply those to various end user interfaces like 
questionnaires, dashboards (with SVG graphics) and application interfaces.
The responsive CSS core takes care of everything. This is almost 
impossible to do using any other GUI mechanism. Hell, even Linux 
desktops are styled with CSS nowadays. If only there was some HTML in 
there we could really build a gorgeous desktop.

>>>
>>> Java deployment over the web using webstart is almost as simple, and
>>> cleaner because you don't have to worry about a browser window and
>>> should get a consistent look and feel,
>>
>> Please educate yourself about the the display property in Web App
>> manifests.
>>
> I don't know about that, or where I could find a good example of a web app site, just that any site I view in the browser (ie safari on my phone) still has the URL bar at the top and navigation buttons at the bottom.
> 

You must be looking at some very poorly designed websites. There are 
plenty of them around.

>>> but it does require a JRE
>>> install and only works on Windows, Mac OS, or Linux.
>>
>> Who is installing a JRE on their client these days??? That Oracle
>> Dickhead who made Applets so difficult to activate should be shot!
>>
> Applets are dead, we're talking webstart.
> 

Webstart is just as dead. At least Applets had their use once. Webstart 
was a horrible idea to start with and never took off.

>>>
>>> App store deployment is cleaner for mobile as again you're running
>>> standalone, not inside some browser window.  It does require an
>>> install, and does allow you to prompt for permission to do things you
>>> can't do in a browser.
>>
>> I like that simple permissions model but, quite rightly, some point out
>> that asking for all permissions up from without any context as to what
>> they will be used for leads the user to make an uninformed decision as
>> useless as "Do you agree to the Ts and Cs?".
>>
>> For better or worse the Web has opted for only asking for Geolocation
>> access when it is needed or only asking for microphone access after the
>> user has clicked a button for record.
>>
>> I'm not suffering from conviction either way.
>>
>> BTW There's not much left that you "can't do in a browser". Background
>> Geolocation a notable exception due to a whole cabal of reasons. Cheif
>> among them Jerk bloody Archibald.
> 
> There have been some apps overusing the prompt, requesting permission to do things like access the camera they shouldn't need to do.  Agreed it's probably a better model if it can ask permissions in the middle of an app if you click the 'snap a photo' button then it asks do you want to give this app permission to the camera and it gives you the 3 choices 1) yes right now, 2) no, or 3) yes and never ask again for this app.
> I know one thing I've heard doesn't work well in web code is accessing the client file system.
> 

You describe how accessing features like Geolocation works in browsers.

Accessing user file systems is very much overdone in business 
applications. In the end people resort to using shared network locations 
to be able to collaborate (which is then poorly supported by the same 
applications).
Proper up/download can be implemented very conveniently in a browser. 
Sharing resources like documents and media files can be supported much 
easier and infinitely more secure.

In some areas desktop applications have actual advantages. But these 
advantages are decreasing and web applications are closing in. Web 
applications have huge advantages in many other areas. Desktop 
applications can only partially keep up by using Citrix-like setups.

Part of the mobile app hausse is caused by nitwit decision makers who 
believe the hype that every B2C company, web shop, television show or 
pop concert needs it's own app. Doing that instead of a properly 
designed web site is counter productive and sooner or later people will 
start to realize that.

Google is already moving tablets away from Android and towards ChromeOS. 
That is a good decision. Many mobile apps turn a tablet into a clumsy 
big smartphone.

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#38165

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 02:28:38 +0100, Silvio wrote:

> You always have to accommodate for different screen sizes if an
> application may be used on different types of devices or if you want to
> allow users to work with smaller windows sizes (remember cascade/tile?).
>
That is easy enough in Swing. Call JFrame.getToolkit() and use the toolkit 
to find the screen size. Provided that your code expresses component 
dimensions as %age of screen size then scaling a window layout becomes 
automatic. I do this as a matter of course and my Java Apps work on a 
variety of screens ranging from SVGA to 1600x900 without any fuss or 
bother.
 
> Using Swing layouts was even worse (remember GirdBagLayout? That sucked
> big time).
>
GridBagLayout has *always* sucked IMO. 

For the sort of layouts I generally use, i.e. paint a screen rather like 
we used to do with one of the 4GLs (Sculptor, DBase, etc), I prefer 
Riverlayout to any other layout manager I've tried. It was originated by 
Datadosen and was at www.datadosen.se/riverlayout but that site is now 
rearranged and the link is broken. I have source if you want it.

Or you could try MigLayout,  http://www.miglayout.com/ - I haven't used 
it but it gets quite a lot of nice mentions and its documentation looks 
well thought out and clear.


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38166

On 3/13/2018 7:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> For the sort of layouts I generally use, i.e. paint a screen rather like
> we used to do with one of the 4GLs (Sculptor, DBase, etc), I prefer
> Riverlayout to any other layout manager I've tried. It was originated by
> Datadosen and was at www.datadosen.se/riverlayout but that site is now
> rearranged and the link is broken. I have source if you want it.

It looks like it is on GitHub:

https://github.com/Deses/RiverLayout

Arne

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#38168

On Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:54:05 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 3/13/2018 7:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> For the sort of layouts I generally use, i.e. paint a screen rather
>> like we used to do with one of the 4GLs (Sculptor, DBase, etc), I
>> prefer Riverlayout to any other layout manager I've tried. It was
>> originated by Datadosen and was at www.datadosen.se/riverlayout but
>> that site is now rearranged and the link is broken. I have source if
>> you want it.
> 
> It looks like it is on GitHub:
> 
> https://github.com/Deses/RiverLayout
> 
Thanks for that.

I tried a few searches, but they didn't appear to find it - only outdated 
links to Datadosen and a mass of irrelevant artsy-craftsy hits. 


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38167

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 7:39:21 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> That is easy enough in Swing. Call JFrame.getToolkit() and use the toolkit 
> to find the screen size. Provided that your code expresses component 
> dimensions as %age of screen size then scaling a window layout becomes 
> automatic. I do this as a matter of course and my Java Apps work on a 
> variety of screens ranging from SVGA to 1600x900 without any fuss or 
> bother.
>  
> > Using Swing layouts was even worse (remember GirdBagLayout? That sucked
> > big time).
> >
> GridBagLayout has *always* sucked IMO. 
> 

I believe GridBagLayout is the one layout I have in a test class which looked like the most flexible one.  For our application I use null layout and set all controls with fixed size and location with non-resizable windows, requiring a minimum resolution to run it.  I find if we give users too much flexibility they just mess themselves up.  When we used to use Office 2000 they had an Office toolbar docked to the top of the desktop.  One user managed to run Word and undocked it's toolbar and dragged it under the Office toolbar and called IT to find it.

Keeping things simple and standard really helps.  If we let users assign their own custom colors to controls they would mess themselves up, or get confused looking at someone else's screen, so we color controls and all colors are hard coded and meaningful.  A red control has an error, a yellow control is a required field, a blue control has a special inquiry function.

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#38176

On 2018-03-13 13:42, Eric Douglas wrote:
> For our application I use null layout and set all controls with fixed size and location with non-resizable windows, requiring a minimum resolution to run it.  

Are you for real?

-- 
DF.

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#38177

On 14-Mar-18 6:27 AM, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> On 2018-03-13 13:42, Eric Douglas wrote:
>> For our application I use null layout and set all controls with
>> fixed size and location with non-resizable windows, requiring a
>> minimum resolution to run it.
> 
> Are you for real?
> 

:-)

I'd love to see an orientation change on his phone!

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#38178

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 8:35:14 PM UTC-4, Richard Maher wrote:
> I'd love to see an orientation change on his phone!

It's a Swing application, doesn't run on a phone..

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#38179

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 6:27:52 PM UTC-4, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> > For our application I use null layout and set all controls with fixed size and location with non-resizable windows, requiring a minimum resolution to run it.  
> 
> Are you for real?
> 
> -- 
> DF.

It is simpler for the users and the developer, as we've converted over an old character based system which was much more limiting.  It used to be just 25 rows and 80 columns of text, everything printed to a specific x,y and keyboard navigation through one field at a time.  Have you tried rewriting an entire application (sales order, purchase order, inventory management, MRP) by yourself?  I am currently the entire IT department.  I've had one person helping over the years, people I've trained, we've gone through a few and the good ones leave for better paying jobs.  You sound like a whipper snapper who grew up with tablets.  Don't criticize what you don't know.

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#38182

On 2018-03-14 13:08, Eric Douglas wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 6:27:52 PM UTC-4, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
>>> For our application I use null layout and set all controls with fixed size and location with non-resizable windows, requiring a minimum resolution to run it.  
>>
>> Are you for real?
>>
> 
> It is simpler for the users and the developer, as we've converted over an old character based system which was much more limiting.  It used to be just 25 rows and 80 columns of text, everything printed to a specific x,y and keyboard navigation through one field at a time.  Have you tried rewriting an entire application (sales order, purchase order, inventory management, MRP) by yourself?  I am currently the entire IT department.  I've had one person helping over the years, people I've trained, we've gone through a few and the good ones leave for better paying jobs.  You sound like a whipper snapper who grew up with tablets.  Don't criticize what you don't know.

I know those work conditions well enough to relate. Yes, I have at least
once tried to rewrite a legacy application by myself; tried long enough
to decide that it wasn't going to do it, and have managed to avoid it
since. Lucky me, I guess.

Pardon my reaction; I guess it was too impulsive. It's just that... I'm
stumped. I understand that UIs don't have to be shiny to be useful, but
I'm just shuddering at the thought of creating a UI using absolute
coordinates. I don't understand it. Even if the resulting UI were good
enough for whichever work is concerned, using, say, fixed dimension
widgets and letting a basic layout manager take care of them would seem
so much less of a hassle than specifying it all by hand.

I understand that there are, more often than not, idiosyncrasies lurking
beneath the surface in our line of work, compelling choices which to the
uninformed observer will seem obtuse. I'm not excluding that it might be
the case in your situation, and you have my sympathies if it does. It's
just that... well, you have been a prolific contributor to this group in
the recent past, and one that quite regularly presents situations or
advocates solutions that are, let's say, unorthodox. As such, I have at
times been wondering whether you were spinning for the sake of spin. Not
that I would blame you if you did, mind you; just that I would stop
listening. In that sense, my earlier question wasn't rhetorical -- I'm
genuinely wondering whether you're for real. If you tell me, yes, then
that's good enough for me.

-- 
DF.

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#38184

On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 6:51:23 AM UTC-4, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> Pardon my reaction; I guess it was too impulsive. It's just that... I'm
> stumped. I understand that UIs don't have to be shiny to be useful, but
> I'm just shuddering at the thought of creating a UI using absolute
> coordinates. I don't understand it. Even if the resulting UI were good
> enough for whichever work is concerned, using, say, fixed dimension
> widgets and letting a basic layout manager take care of them would seem
> so much less of a hassle than specifying it all by hand.
> 

It is no doubt unconventional but I think it makes sense once you see the where, the how, the why.  I am currently still using a 3rd party API for windows/frames, putting in all the 'widget' controls using custom Swing.  I have a main menu which is Java based.  Some menu options kick off a new Java session, some still run the old character based windows because I don't have a mass conversion tool or the manpower to convert them all.  A fixed x/y/w/h is not difficult since I hard coded standard fonts for consistency.

The API is a hybrid so the old code which is Business BASIC syntax (Java wasn't invented when we started) still works and we can create and use Java objects and methods directly.  Our first big goal with Java was just to make newer looking screens which were laid out the same as the old screens to ease the transition for users who were used to the old screens.  My second big goal was to invent new screen designs which could do everything the old screens did and more with less user interaction.

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#38183

On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 05:08:15 -0700, Eric Douglas wrote:

> It is simpler for the users and the developer, as we've converted over
> an old character based system which was much more limiting.  It used to
> be just 25 rows and 80 columns of text, everything printed to a specific
> x,y and keyboard navigation through one field at a time.  Have you tried
> rewriting an entire application (sales order, purchase order, inventory
> management, MRP) by yourself?  I am currently the entire IT department. 
> I've had one person helping over the years, people I've trained, we've
> gone through a few and the good ones leave for better paying jobs.  You
> sound like a whipper snapper who grew up with tablets.  Don't criticize
> what you don't know.

I solved that problem another way: wrote a version of Curses in Java that 
can be used with any Java program needing a 24x80 display instead of awt, 
Swing, etc.


-- 
Martin    | martin at
Gregorie  | gregorie dot org

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#38181

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 6:27:52 PM UTC-4, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> On 2018-03-13 13:42, Eric Douglas wrote:
> > For our application I use null layout and set all controls with fixed size and location with non-resizable windows, requiring a minimum resolution to run it.  
> 
> Are you for real?
> 
> -- 
> DF.

I actually write JFrame windows just for testing.  My API is just the Swing controls, which go on a window generated by the API of the hybrid language we use, which puts everything in a fixed x,y with a fixed width,height.

http://documentation.basis.com/BASISHelp/WebHelp/winmethods3/bbjwindow_addwrappedjcomponent.htm

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