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API vc MVC

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  API vc MVC Leonan Luppi <leonan.luppi@gmail.com> - 2015-05-11 19:04 -0700
    Re: API vc MVC Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2015-05-12 08:09 +0200
      Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-27 22:36 -0400
    Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-27 22:40 -0400
      Re: API vc MVC Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-28 11:55 +0800
        Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-28 18:56 -0400
          Re: API vc MVC Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-29 07:03 +0800
            Re: API vc MVC Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-29 08:10 +0800
              Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-30 22:43 -0400
            Re: API vc MVC e.d.programmer@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 05:14 -0700
              Re: API vc MVC Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 16:30 +0100
                Re: API vc MVC Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-07-30 05:46 +0800
                  Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-30 22:56 -0400
                Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-30 22:53 -0400
                  Re: API vc MVC Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-07-31 15:10 +0200
                    Re: API vc MVC Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-07-31 15:12 +0200
                      Re: API vc MVC Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-01 09:04 +0800
                    Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-31 19:34 -0400
                      Re: API vc MVC Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 05:39 +0100
                        Re: API vc MVC Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-08-01 10:13 +0000
                          Re: API vc MVC Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-08-01 21:54 +0100
                            Re: API vc MVC Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-08-01 22:49 +0000
                              Re: API vc MVC Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 07:57 +0100
                                Re: API vc MVC Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-08-02 07:49 +0000
                                  Re: API vc MVC Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 09:28 +0100
              Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-30 22:45 -0400
                Re: API vc MVC e.d.programmer@gmail.com - 2015-07-31 05:31 -0700
            Re: API vc MVC Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-30 22:41 -0400
          Re: API vc MVC Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 16:24 +0100

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#32240

On 01/08/2015 11:13, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Aug 2015 05:39:12 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>
>> I stick to plain vanilla when I can and I don't mind admitting it and
>> there's not much I can't do, in fact I can't think of anything I can't
>> do and I don't need a framework to do it. My SQL is spare, and usually
>> works OOTB, my java compiles first time. Years of practice and studious
>> avoidance of frameworks.
>>
>> Give me a basic text editor, a terminal and a runtime and compiler and
>> I'm good to go
>>
> Yep. I see no need for JUnit either: having used it, I wasn't impressed
> with the appearance or content of the test results.

I got into the whole "write your test, then write your code to pass the 
test" thing for a while but, I don't know, maybe I was missing something 
but it seemed to take the fun out of it and certainly interrupted my flow.

> I use the same approach for C development.

emacs, gcc, make and gdb does it for me.

gdb has gotta be the killer app for c devs :-)

I'm currenty working on a memory manager, just for fun
I'm a bit slow on the uptake so I'm sticking with 32 bit AT&T x86 
assembler at the moment, I might move up to 64 bit if I can find the 
time. I doubt I could do it without gdb. It's been a while since I 
looked at it ... never enough time is there?

> Also, because the test
> harnesses have very few dependencies,

Ah now there's a thing, dependencies. All these frameworks come with 
their own dependencies, do they all work together nicely? or do they 
conflict, still, there's always Maven :-)

> its entirely practical to
> distribute them with the source so anybody can use the regression tests
> to check that they have successfully compiled and installed the code.

I don't suffer from dependency hell, mainly because my code doesn't have any
apart from an old mysql JDBC driver. Oh yes, and I use some email 
validator that comes in a jar file and hasn't been changed for ... years 
really.

My currently most successful commercial web site makes me a good monthly 
income, relies on Tomcat to serve the static and dynamic content (no 
Apache httpd), can support at least 1000 concurrent sessions and has 
been resisting an incessant onslaught from Russian botnets for several 
months now and it's still up, Tomcat still has resources to spare and 
not a framework in sight. Just defensive programming, common sense and 
not using stuff I don't understand.

'nuff said :-)



-- 
Laughing Spam Fritter

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#32241

On Sat, 01 Aug 2015 21:54:48 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:

>> Yep. I see no need for JUnit either: having used it, I wasn't impressed
>> with the appearance or content of the test results.
> 
> I got into the whole "write your test, then write your code to pass the
> test" thing for a while but, I don't know, maybe I was missing something
> but it seemed to take the fun out of it and certainly interrupted my
> flow.
>
That's exactly what you mustn't do. Ideally the test is written from the 
functional specs - which I can get close to because I tend to write the 
description, which corresponds to the module/class level comment and the 
associated function/method descriptions and prototypes/method signatures 
along with any externally visible constants, IOW a module spec before any 
code. However, I do write these as a set of comments with skeletal code 
interspersed so they should compile correctly. I find this helps me get 
the interfaces right and assists with splitting the code up into sensible 
functions/methods. 

Once this has been done, its the right time & place to write the test 
scripts so they end up being written to the the spec rather than to the 
code. Its also a good time to set up the interface code module for the 
test harness. Since this is just an if..then..else totem pole containing 
essentially no other logic, this is as good a time as any to write it. 
All the tests, testing logic and corner cases can be set up and tested in 
the test scripts. These are entirely linear: conditions aren't needed 
because any possible set of inputs and call sequences can be expressed in 
a linear script.
 
>> I use the same approach for C development.
> 
> emacs, gcc, make and gdb does it for me.
> 
> gdb has gotta be the killer app for c devs :-)
>
I find using a debugger is a lot slower that using diagnostic tracing but 
obviously we differ there. Besides, I like leaving the diagnostics in the 
finished code and always under the control of a debug option because this 
the overheads are minimal and troubleshooting problems, often the result 
of the code being used in ways that nobody thought of, that can occur 
later is much easier. 

> I'm currenty working on a memory manager, just for fun I'm a bit slow on
> the uptake so I'm sticking with 32 bit AT&T x86 assembler at the moment,
> I might move up to 64 bit if I can find the time. I doubt I could do it
> without gdb. It's been a while since I looked at it ... never enough
> time is there?
> 
Likewise, I'm in the midst of a configurable 8/16 bit emulator for 68xx, 
63xx and 65xx series chips. This is a C program because the lack of 
unsigned numeric variables made hardware register emulation very nasty i 
Java, bit I digress. Currently there are between 50 and 60 test scripts 
used to exercise its various modules. A complete regression test, which 
uses the complete set of test scripts, currently runs in 1.3 seconds,   

> Ah now there's a thing, dependencies. All these frameworks come with
> their own dependencies, do they all work together nicely? or do they
> conflict, still, there's always Maven :-)
>
Quite. I use make for C and ant for Java, CVS gets used for both  and, 
errm, not a lot more apart from my C and Java test harness. However I 
have used Flex+bison (lex+yacc if you prefer) and curses with C and Coco/
R with Java. I now have one toe in the git water and may well move 
entirely to it. Similarly, I'd now use Coco/R for C rather than flex
+bison. 
 
> I don't suffer from dependency hell, mainly because my code doesn't have
> any apart from an old mysql JDBC driver.
>
Same here, though in my case its the PostgreSQL JDBC driver.

> Oh yes, and I use some email
> validator that comes in a jar file and hasn't been changed for ... years
> really.
>
Javamail and mstor here.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#32242

On 01/08/2015 23:49, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Aug 2015 21:54:48 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>

...

>> Ah now there's a thing, dependencies. All these frameworks come with
>> their own dependencies, do they all work together nicely? or do they
>> conflict, still, there's always Maven :-)
>>
> Quite. I use make for C and ant for Java, CVS gets used for both  and,
> errm, not a lot more apart from my C and Java test harness. However I
> have used Flex+bison (lex+yacc if you prefer) and curses with C and Coco/
> R with Java. I now have one toe in the git water and may well move
> entirely to it.

I use git exclusively now, it can be a bit obscure sometimes, for me 
anyway. I'm getting a bit long in the tooth now and the old gray matter 
isn't quite as sharp as it was.

Anyway, bitbucket offers free private git repos so I use them, although 
github is far more fashionable :-) I still take hard backups to a usb 
stick and tar.gz the source to a gmail account just to be safe 
(paranoid? me?). I Don't like dropbox.

>> I don't suffer from dependency hell, mainly because my code doesn't have
>> any apart from an old mysql JDBC driver.
>>
> Same here, though in my case its the PostgreSQL JDBC driver.
>
>> Oh yes, and I use some email
>> validator that comes in a jar file and hasn't been changed for ... years
>> really.
>>
> Javamail and mstor here.

Yes, I use javamail to notify customers of the various stages in the 
order fulfillment process and to send an sms to my cell phone when an 
order has been placed.

I needed email validation during the sign up process well before I had 
the email working, maybe I can ditch the 3rd party validator jar now but 
if it ain't broke etc.



-- 
Laughing Spam Fritter

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#32243

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 07:57:21 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:

> Anyway, bitbucket offers free private git repos so I use them, although
> github is far more fashionable :-) I still take hard backups to a usb
> stick and tar.gz the source to a gmail account just to be safe
> (paranoid? me?). I Don't like dropbox.
>
My main repository is on one of my Linux boxes and is backed up to 
rotating rust (a rotated pair of USB hard drives kept in a fire safe). I 
use Sourceforge for wider publication/collaboration.

A pertinent question for the likes of Bitbucket, Github, Google, 
Sourceforge, .... who offer free services is "where do they make their 
money?".  We know the answer for Google (and so to avoid them if you want 
any privacy), but its not so obvious for the repositories. Knowing the 
answer is a good indication of their future stability and what tricks 
they might get up to (ads in the 'free' Windows downloader in the case of 
Sourceforge) if they get desperate for cash.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#32244

On 02/08/2015 08:49, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 07:57:21 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>
>> Anyway, bitbucket offers free private git repos so I use them, although
>> github is far more fashionable :-) I still take hard backups to a usb
>> stick and tar.gz the source to a gmail account just to be safe
>> (paranoid? me?). I Don't like dropbox.
>>


> A pertinent question for the likes of Bitbucket, Github, Google,
> Sourceforge, .... who offer free services is "where do they make their
> money?".

Well github charges for private repos (IIRC)
Bitbucket charges for any more than 5 users on any one account
But I know what you mean.

Microsoft are now (apparently) charging 10 dollars a year to play 
solitaire on Windows 10 if you don't want ads.

I say you aint seen nothing yet

The device I'm writing this on is one of these tiny solid state ASUS 
thingies running Winows 8.1, it's an amazing device, I even installed 
Tomcat, Eclipse and java on it and it all just works. I bought it as I 
travel around with my hobby and needed something small to use in hotels 
etc. I'll try 10 and if I get pissed off I stick Mint on it.

I do all my dev on a facsimilie of my CentOS production server (Ubuntu) 
and I'm investigating other distros for suitability by running them in 
VirtuaBox on my wife's super fast work machine which she uses to work 
from home via TeamViewer.

My entire business is developed and maintained using only FOSS software, 
I have written my own CMS,  financial managament system and account 
manager, I use my own home brewed cart and write all my own AJAX, I 
build my dynamic HTML using the standard java org.w3c.Dom libraries. All 
this using the bog standard reference implementations of the standard 
JDK from Oracle.

So, anyone thinking that you need to use frameworks to get anything done 
is on the wrong track.

You don't *need* them, you really don't

> We know the answer for Google (and so to avoid them if you want
> any privacy), but its not so obvious for the repositories. Knowing the
> answer is a good indication of their future stability and what tricks
> they might get up to (ads in the 'free' Windows downloader in the case of
> Sourceforge) if they get desperate for cash.

Hence offsite, and hard copy backups.

-- 
Laughing Spam Fritter

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#32227

On 7/29/2015 8:14 AM, e.d.programmer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:04:02 PM UTC-4, Richard Maher wrote:
>> C'mon Arne mate you know that's non-sequitur. The cost of using
>> crap like jQuery is it's inefficient, restrictive, and can't work
>> with new HTML5 features such a worker-threads. Support for this
>> plethora of libraries is iffy at best and why are you recommending
>> using anything other than what Microsoft is paying for and overtly
>> supporting?

> I interviewed for a job once, they were only looking for someone who
> knows jQuery, so maybe a good thing I didn't get it.

In general it is good not to get a job where the only requirement is
X and you don't know X.

>                                                    As far as I
> know our web site just uses html, javascript, php.

jQuery is JavaScript. A JavaScript library/framework.

Arne

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#32230

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 10:45:33 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> In general it is good not to get a job where the only requirement is
> X and you don't know X.
> 
> >                                                    As far as I
> > know our web site just uses html, javascript, php.
> 
> jQuery is JavaScript. A JavaScript library/framework.
> 
> Arne

That is the problem in the programming world, there's never an only requirement.  They claimed they were looking for a Java developer, then they say they only want someone who also knows jQuery.

If you're looking for a good programming job it helps to be proficient in Java, jQuery, Javascript, PHP, SQL, HTML, CSS, Swing, Spring... and a few more.

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#32225

On 7/28/2015 7:03 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 7/29/2015 6:56 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> Do you also write your own web server, your own OS and
>> build your own hardware?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> No need to spend time doing something that other have done for you.
>
> C'mon Arne mate you know that's non-sequitur. The cost of using crap
> like jQuery is it's inefficient, restrictive, and can't work with new
> HTML5 features such a worker-threads.

There are a lot of web sites out there that have managed to use
jQuery!

>                                        Support for this plethora of
> libraries is iffy at best

Many of the more popular JS frameworks has much better support
than a home grown framework.

As an example jQuery is CDN hosted by both Google and Microsoft.

Arne

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#32196

On 28/07/2015 23:56, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/27/2015 11:55 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 10:40 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 5/11/2015 10:04 PM, Leonan Luppi wrote:
>>>> I have a sad doubt about this subject's. Today what is better?

<snip>

> Do you also write your own web server

Did that years ago

> your own OS and

Thinking about it

> build your own hardware?

Laptops no, servers yes

> :-)
>
> No need to spend time doing something that other have done for you.

Nonsense, do it because it's fun

-- 
Laughing Spam Fritter

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