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Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE

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  Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-03 21:20 +0100
    Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2015-07-04 22:44 +0200
      Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 08:05 +0100
        Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-05 07:54 -0400
          Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 13:47 +0100
            Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-07-05 09:01 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-07-05 09:09 -0400
              Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 14:24 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-07-05 09:34 -0400
                  Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 14:57 +0100
                    Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-05 11:39 -0400
                      Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-05 18:01 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-07-05 09:38 -0400
                  Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-07-05 09:44 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-07-05 11:29 -0400
      Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-07-05 07:59 -0400

#31946 — Re: Microsoft Word as a Java-IDE

On 03/07/2015 18:49, Stefan Ram wrote:

>    |         public class Main
>    |         { public static void main( final java.lang.String[] args )
>    |           { java.lang.System.out.printf( "a%nb%n" ); }}

<snip endless gabage>

Does some edu establishment actually pay you for this crap?
Your coding style is appalling, really, you are doing your students an 
enormous disservice. What happens when they get a real job and come out 
with this trash?

DuckDuckGo "java coding standards"

This is the problem with not having a recognized professional 
qualification for software engineering. Any wannabe guru can come up 
with any old useless garbage and profess an expertise?

Does your university realize what you are up to?
Maybe someone should tell them

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#31953

On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:

> On 03/07/2015 18:49, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>    |         public class Main
>>    |         { public static void main( final java.lang.String[] args )
>>    |           { java.lang.System.out.printf( "a%nb%n" ); }}
> <snip endless gabage>

> Does some edu establishment actually pay you for this crap?
> Your coding style is appalling, really, you are doing your students an 
> enormous disservice. What happens when they get a real job and come out 
> with this trash?

> DuckDuckGo "java coding standards"

> This is the problem with not having a recognized professional 
> qualification for software engineering. Any wannabe guru can come up 
> with any old useless garbage and profess an expertise?

> Does your university realize what you are up to?
> Maybe someone should tell them

I'm almost certain Stefan is a troll. He consistently ignores any comment
about his hilariously terrible style (as he is ought to ignore you), and if
you think about it, any student taught this style would be laughed out of
any possible interview, so after even one semester, there would be dozens
of complaints by students ruined for the commercial job market.

Considering he has used this style for years, logically, there would have
been hundreds if not thousands of complaints about his ridiculous style,
and no amount of tenure would be enough to weather that kind of feedback.

There is really no way he teaches something this bad and still has a job.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#31955

On 04/07/2015 21:44, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>
>> On 03/07/2015 18:49, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>     |         public class Main
>>>     |         { public static void main( final java.lang.String[] args )
>>>     |           { java.lang.System.out.printf( "a%nb%n" ); }}
>> <snip endless gabage>
>
>> Does some edu establishment actually pay you for this crap?
>> Your coding style is appalling, really, you are doing your students an
>> enormous disservice. What happens when they get a real job and come out
>> with this trash?
>
>> DuckDuckGo "java coding standards"
>
>> This is the problem with not having a recognized professional
>> qualification for software engineering. Any wannabe guru can come up
>> with any old useless garbage and profess an expertise?
>
>> Does your university realize what you are up to?
>> Maybe someone should tell them
>
> I'm almost certain Stefan is a troll. He consistently ignores any comment
> about his hilariously terrible style (as he is ought to ignore you), and if
> you think about it, any student taught this style would be laughed out of
> any possible interview, so after even one semester, there would be dozens
> of complaints by students ruined for the commercial job market.
>
> Considering he has used this style for years, logically, there would have
> been hundreds if not thousands of complaints about his ridiculous style,
> and no amount of tenure would be enough to weather that kind of feedback.
>
> There is really no way he teaches something this bad and still has a job.

That's a fair point.
I can't find 'Stefan Ram' in the list of academics in either the math or 
comp-sci departments at fu-berlin.de.

Damn, I thought I could spot a wind up/troll/sockpuppet after all these 
years.

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#31956

On 7/5/2015 3:05 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 04/07/2015 21:44, Joerg Meier wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/07/2015 18:49, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>     |         public class Main
>>>>     |         { public static void main( final java.lang.String[]
>>>> args )
>>>>     |           { java.lang.System.out.printf( "a%nb%n" ); }}
>>> <snip endless gabage>
>>
>>> Does some edu establishment actually pay you for this crap?
>>> Your coding style is appalling, really, you are doing your students an
>>> enormous disservice. What happens when they get a real job and come out
>>> with this trash?
>>
>>> DuckDuckGo "java coding standards"
>>
>>> This is the problem with not having a recognized professional
>>> qualification for software engineering. Any wannabe guru can come up
>>> with any old useless garbage and profess an expertise?
>>
>>> Does your university realize what you are up to?
>>> Maybe someone should tell them
>>
>> I'm almost certain Stefan is a troll. He consistently ignores any comment
>> about his hilariously terrible style (as he is ought to ignore you),
>> and if
>> you think about it, any student taught this style would be laughed out of
>> any possible interview, so after even one semester, there would be dozens
>> of complaints by students ruined for the commercial job market.
>>
>> Considering he has used this style for years, logically, there would have
>> been hundreds if not thousands of complaints about his ridiculous style,
>> and no amount of tenure would be enough to weather that kind of feedback.
>>
>> There is really no way he teaches something this bad and still has a job.
>
> That's a fair point.
> I can't find 'Stefan Ram' in the list of academics in either the math or
> comp-sci departments at fu-berlin.de.

He does not teach there.

He teaches here:

http://www.berlin.de/vhs-reinickendorf/index.php?m0=1&m1=4&m2=5&sectid=3&cat=142

Arne

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#31958

On 05/07/2015 12:54, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/5/2015 3:05 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>> On 04/07/2015 21:44, Joerg Meier wrote:
>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:

<snip>

>> That's a fair point.
>> I can't find 'Stefan Ram' in the list of academics in either the math or
>> comp-sci departments at fu-berlin.de.
>
> He does not teach there.
>
> He teaches here:
>
> http://www.berlin.de/vhs-reinickendorf/index.php?m0=1&m1=4&m2=5&sectid=3&cat=142

Now that is absolutely fascinating.

Two, short, 1 week courses to learn Java so that the student can (and I 
quote directly from the translated course bumph)

"develop their skills in order to apply Java skillfully in studies or 
profession"

So, become a skillful Java developer in two weeks from a standing start 
for the low, low price of 238 Euros. Interestingly there doesn't seem to 
be anything about code style!

Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?

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#31959

On 07/05/2015 08:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 12:54, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 7/5/2015 3:05 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2015 21:44, Joerg Meier wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> That's a fair point.
>>> I can't find 'Stefan Ram' in the list of academics in either the math or
>>> comp-sci departments at fu-berlin.de.
>>
>> He does not teach there.
>>
>> He teaches here:
>>
>> http://www.berlin.de/vhs-reinickendorf/index.php?m0=1&m1=4&m2=5&sectid=3&cat=142
>>
>
> Now that is absolutely fascinating.
>
> Two, short, 1 week courses to learn Java so that the student can (and I
> quote directly from the translated course bumph)
>
> "develop their skills in order to apply Java skillfully in studies or
> profession"
>
> So, become a skillful Java developer in two weeks from a standing start
> for the low, low price of 238 Euros. Interestingly there doesn't seem to
> be anything about code style!
>
> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>
>
He provides his course notes free.
You have very harsh words for someone because of their coding style.

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#31960

On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> [...]
> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?

     Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31961

On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>> [...]
>> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>
>      Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.

Sorry, but suggesting that you can become a 'skillful user' of a huge 
and complex language like Java in two weeks is absurd. It also devalues 
your own skills, skills that may have taken half a working lifetime to 
obtain. Do you understand this?

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#31962

On 7/5/2015 9:24 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>>
>>      Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.
>
> Sorry, but suggesting that you can become a 'skillful user' of a huge
> and complex language like Java in two weeks is absurd. It also devalues
> your own skills, skills that may have taken half a working lifetime to
> obtain. Do you understand this?

     Do you understand that pelting someone with mud while cowering
behind a shield of anonymity might be considered impolite at best,
or unprofessional at worst?

     As far as I can tell you first appeared on Usenet three days ago
(in this guise), and your total participation has amounted to one
substantive post, two snarky posts, and four personal attacks on
Stefan Ram.  Given so brief a history it is perhaps rash of me to
form an opinion of you, but nonetheless I have done so.

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31965

On 05/07/2015 14:34, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 7/5/2015 9:24 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>> On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>>>
>>>      Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.
>>
>> Sorry, but suggesting that you can become a 'skillful user' of a huge
>> and complex language like Java in two weeks is absurd. It also devalues
>> your own skills, skills that may have taken half a working lifetime to
>> obtain. Do you understand this?
>
>      Do you understand that pelting someone with mud while cowering
> behind a shield of anonymity might be considered impolite at best,
> or unprofessional at worst?

Do you think that suggesting that it's possible to become 'skillful' in 
the java programming language in two weeks is 'professional'

It's a simple question and while your admirable defense of a collegue is 
noted you should also try to answer it.

You've made you opinions on my 'attack' quite clear but are strangely 
silent on the issue at hand.

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#31967

On 7/5/2015 9:57 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 14:34, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 7/5/2015 9:24 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>> On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>>>>
>>>>      Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but suggesting that you can become a 'skillful user' of a huge
>>> and complex language like Java in two weeks is absurd. It also devalues
>>> your own skills, skills that may have taken half a working lifetime to
>>> obtain. Do you understand this?
>>
>>      Do you understand that pelting someone with mud while cowering
>> behind a shield of anonymity might be considered impolite at best,
>> or unprofessional at worst?
>
> Do you think that suggesting that it's possible to become 'skillful' in
> the java programming language in two weeks is 'professional'

The text states what is covered in the courses:

Behandelt werden: Literale, Typen, Operatoren, Ausdrücke, Namen, Nutzung 
von Dokumentation, Aufrufe statischer Methoden, Anweisungen, 
Importdeklarationen, Konstanten- und Variablendeklarationen, 
Deklarationen statischer Methoden, Verzweigungen (if, switch), Schleifen 
(while, for, do), Reihungen (arrays), Klassendeklarationen, 
Paketdeklarationen, getrennte Übersetzung sowie nach Möglichkeit von 
Teilnehmern gewünschte Themen.

Behandelt werden die objektorientierte Programmierung und Themen, die 
jeder Java-Programmierer kennen muß: Aufrufe von Objektmethoden, Ober- 
und Untertypen, Objekte, Referenznamen, Erzeugung neuer Objekte, Felder, 
Referenzeffekte, die Nullreferenz, Referenzparameter, 
Referenzergebnisse, Deklaration nichstatischer Felder und Methoden, 
Anfangsgründe graphischer Benutzeroberflächen mit JavaFX (Fenster und 
Eingabefelder) Konstruktoren, Hüllklassen und Autoboxing, 
Methodenreferenzen, Annotationen, assert, instanceof, exceptions, 
"private" und "public", Behälter (wie "List" und "Map"), Typargumente 
und Typparameter, Ströme, Schnittstellen und Methodenschnittstellen, 
Vererbung und Überschreiben, anonyme innere Klassen, abstrakte Methoden 
und Klassen, Polymorphie sowie nach Möglichkeit weitere von Teilnehmern 
gewünschte Themen.

I think that can be summarized as being Java language syntax plus
a little bit OO and collections.

It can be covered in 2 weeks. Very dense and I think the students
need to be motivated to hang on, but it can be covered.

Whether:

ihre Fähigkeiten auszubauen, um Java gekonnt in Studium oder Beruf 
anwenden zu können

should be translated to:

to develop their skills in order to apply Java skillfully in studies or 
profession can

and how those words should be interpreted in Volkshochschule
context I don't know.

But I have a strong suspicion that neither do you.

Arne

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#31968

On 05/07/2015 16:39, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/5/2015 9:57 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>> On 05/07/2015 14:34, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 7/5/2015 9:24 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>>> On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>>> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:n

<snip>

> Whether:
>
> ihre Fähigkeiten auszubauen, um Java gekonnt in Studium oder Beruf
> anwenden zu können
>
> should be translated to:
>
> to develop their skills in order to apply Java skillfully in studies or
> profession can
>
> and how those words should be interpreted in Volkshochschule
> context I don't know.
>
> But I have a strong suspicion that neither do you.

Really, well that's very interesting. How about

... provides an introduction to the Java programming language.

All you can do in two weeks is provide an introduction.
In fact, it takes at least a week of intensive training to even start to 
understand 'OO' in any depth and that's training people who are cross 
training from another non-OO language.

Implying that two weeks is enough to become skillful in any aspect of 
the language is quite frankly delusional. Take a look at yourself, you 
have been waffling on about the language for years now and you still 
don't know it all :-)

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#31963

On 07/05/2015 09:24 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>>
>>      Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.
>
> Sorry, but suggesting that you can become a 'skillful user' of a huge
> and complex language like Java in two weeks is absurd. It also devalues
> your own skills, skills that may have taken half a working lifetime to
> obtain. Do you understand this?
>
>
<http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/html_jf47ht81Ht/21-tage>

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#31964

On 07/05/2015 09:38 AM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
> On 07/05/2015 09:24 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>> On 05/07/2015 14:09, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
>>>
>>>      Only the people who pay attention to pseudonymous FUD-flingers.
>>
>> Sorry, but suggesting that you can become a 'skillful user' of a huge
>> and complex language like Java in two weeks is absurd. It also devalues
>> your own skills, skills that may have taken half a working lifetime to
>> obtain. Do you understand this?
>>
>>
> <http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~ram/pub/html_jf47ht81Ht/21-tage>
>
Shrug on the 403. "Lernen Sie programmieren in zehn Jahren"

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#31966

On 7/5/2015 8:47 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 05/07/2015 12:54, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 7/5/2015 3:05 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2015 21:44, Joerg Meier wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>> That's a fair point.
>>> I can't find 'Stefan Ram' in the list of academics in either the math or
>>> comp-sci departments at fu-berlin.de.
>>
>> He does not teach there.
>>
>> He teaches here:
>>
>> http://www.berlin.de/vhs-reinickendorf/index.php?m0=1&m1=4&m2=5&sectid=3&cat=142
>>
> 
> Now that is absolutely fascinating.
> 
> Two, short, 1 week courses to learn Java so that the student can (and I
> quote directly from the translated course bumph)
> 
> "develop their skills in order to apply Java skillfully in studies or
> profession"
> 
> So, become a skillful Java developer in two weeks from a standing start
> for the low, low price of 238 Euros. Interestingly there doesn't seem to
> be anything about code style!
> 
> Gotta be a scam. Does anyone actually fall for this snake oil?
> 
> 

Not a scam at all.  I taught Java (as well as other courses like C and
C++) in a week for corporations.  These courses cost a lot more than
$238 Euros, but the corporations happily paid because they got results.

No, they were not expert programmers at the end of a week.  But they did
have the basics down and were productive.  They also had enough
information to have a good idea where to look for things they didn't know.

It paid well, but I got tired of all the travel.  It was fun for the
first 10 years or so, but 75K+ air miles and 25+ weeks away each year
wasn't much fun any more.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#31957

On 7/4/2015 4:44 PM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 21:20:20 +0100, Eternal Hope wrote:
>
>> On 03/07/2015 18:49, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>     |         public class Main
>>>     |         { public static void main( final java.lang.String[] args )
>>>     |           { java.lang.System.out.printf( "a%nb%n" ); }}
>> <snip endless gabage>
>
>> Does some edu establishment actually pay you for this crap?
>> Your coding style is appalling, really, you are doing your students an
>> enormous disservice. What happens when they get a real job and come out
>> with this trash?
>
>> DuckDuckGo "java coding standards"
>
>> This is the problem with not having a recognized professional
>> qualification for software engineering. Any wannabe guru can come up
>> with any old useless garbage and profess an expertise?
>
>> Does your university realize what you are up to?
>> Maybe someone should tell them
>
> I'm almost certain Stefan is a troll. He consistently ignores any comment
> about his hilariously terrible style (as he is ought to ignore you),

His coding style is bizarre.

But he has been participating in cljp discussions for many
years (many of hos discussions are probably more on the academic
side of programming, but ...).

No indication of troll IMHO.

>                                                                      and if
> you think about it, any student taught this style would be laughed out of
> any possible interview, so after even one semester, there would be dozens
> of complaints by students ruined for the commercial job market.
>
> Considering he has used this style for years, logically, there would have
> been hundreds if not thousands of complaints about his ridiculous style,
> and no amount of tenure would be enough to weather that kind of feedback.
>
> There is really no way he teaches something this bad and still has a job.

Maybe he don't teach his style!?!?

Arne

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