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Re: presentable Java features and programs

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  Re: presentable Java features and programs Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-04-06 21:20 -0400
    Re: presentable Java features and programs Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-04-06 21:23 -0400
    Re: presentable Java features and programs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-04-06 21:24 -0400
      Re: presentable Java features and programs Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-04-06 21:35 -0400
        Re: presentable Java features and programs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-04-08 09:20 -0700
        Re: presentable Java features and programs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-04-12 22:12 -0400
          Re: presentable Java features and programs Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-04-12 22:17 -0400

#31508 — Re: presentable Java features and programs

On 4/6/2015 6:50 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>    A Java course participant asked me near the start of the
>    beginner's course: »What can one do with Java? Could you
>    show me three Java programs?«.

     "What can one do with Java?  Nothing that can't be done in some
other language.  I'll give you a referral to our COBOL professor, or
to a guidance counsellor if you'd like to change your major."

     What can one do with a hammer?  One can build, or one can
destroy.  The building may be shoddy, and the destruction may be
incomplete -- these depend on the circumstances and on the talent
and application of the hammerer -- but basically, that's It.

     In short: Silly question.  Something along the lines of "Why
Java as opposed to SNOBOL?" might have been more worthy, but ...

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31511

On 04/06/2015 09:20 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 4/6/2015 6:50 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>    A Java course participant asked me near the start of the
>>    beginner's course: »What can one do with Java? Could you
>>    show me three Java programs?«.
>
>      "What can one do with Java?  Nothing that can't be done in some
> other language.  I'll give you a referral to our COBOL professor, or
> to a guidance counsellor if you'd like to change your major."
>
>      What can one do with a hammer?  One can build, or one can
> destroy.  The building may be shoddy, and the destruction may be
> incomplete -- these depend on the circumstances and on the talent
> and application of the hammerer -- but basically, that's It.
>
>      In short: Silly question.  Something along the lines of "Why
> Java as opposed to SNOBOL?" might have been more worthy, but ...
>
Wow.

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#31512

On 4/6/2015 9:20 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 4/6/2015 6:50 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>    A Java course participant asked me near the start of the
>>    beginner's course: »What can one do with Java? Could you
>>    show me three Java programs?«.
>
>      "What can one do with Java?  Nothing that can't be done in some
> other language.  I'll give you a referral to our COBOL professor, or
> to a guidance counsellor if you'd like to change your major."
>
>      What can one do with a hammer?  One can build, or one can
> destroy.  The building may be shoddy, and the destruction may be
> incomplete -- these depend on the circumstances and on the talent
> and application of the hammerer -- but basically, that's It.
>
>      In short: Silly question.  Something along the lines of "Why
> Java as opposed to SNOBOL?" might have been more worthy, but ...

Long time since you were a student?

:-)

It can be very motivating to show some examples of real
world stuff instead of the traditional hello world
examples.

Arne

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#31513

On 4/6/2015 9:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/6/2015 9:20 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 4/6/2015 6:50 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>    A Java course participant asked me near the start of the
>>>    beginner's course: »What can one do with Java? Could you
>>>    show me three Java programs?«.
>>
>>      "What can one do with Java?  Nothing that can't be done in some
>> other language.  I'll give you a referral to our COBOL professor, or
>> to a guidance counsellor if you'd like to change your major."
>>
>>      What can one do with a hammer?  One can build, or one can
>> destroy.  The building may be shoddy, and the destruction may be
>> incomplete -- these depend on the circumstances and on the talent
>> and application of the hammerer -- but basically, that's It.
>>
>>      In short: Silly question.  Something along the lines of "Why
>> Java as opposed to SNOBOL?" might have been more worthy, but ...
>
> Long time since you were a student?
>
> :-)
>
> It can be very motivating to show some examples of real
> world stuff instead of the traditional hello world
> examples.

     Yeah, well, okay.  BUT!!!  Why is this person taking your class
in the first place?  What motivated him to spend a beautiful sunny
Spring afternoon learning about generics instead of romancing another
(non-)student of the gender he prefers?  If the student is in your
class under duress, I sincerely doubt you'll seduce him with a load
of code he's not yet learned to read.

     It is rare that motivation can be impressed on someone from without,
and rarer still that such an "alien heat" turns out to be a Good Thing.

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31536

On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 21:35:57 -0400, Eric Sosman
<esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> wrote:

>On 4/6/2015 9:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

[snip]

>> It can be very motivating to show some examples of real
>> world stuff instead of the traditional hello world
>> examples.
>
>     Yeah, well, okay.  BUT!!!  Why is this person taking your class
>in the first place?  What motivated him to spend a beautiful sunny
>Spring afternoon learning about generics instead of romancing another
>(non-)student of the gender he prefers?  If the student is in your
>class under duress, I sincerely doubt you'll seduce him with a load
>of code he's not yet learned to read.

     Then sell him on how he can doing something in his area of
interest more easily.

>     It is rare that motivation can be impressed on someone from without,
>and rarer still that such an "alien heat" turns out to be a Good Thing.

     But one can coax motivation.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#31559

On 4/6/2015 9:35 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 4/6/2015 9:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 4/6/2015 9:20 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2015 6:50 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>    A Java course participant asked me near the start of the
>>>>    beginner's course: »What can one do with Java? Could you
>>>>    show me three Java programs?«.
>>>
>>>      "What can one do with Java?  Nothing that can't be done in some
>>> other language.  I'll give you a referral to our COBOL professor, or
>>> to a guidance counsellor if you'd like to change your major."
>>>
>>>      What can one do with a hammer?  One can build, or one can
>>> destroy.  The building may be shoddy, and the destruction may be
>>> incomplete -- these depend on the circumstances and on the talent
>>> and application of the hammerer -- but basically, that's It.
>>>
>>>      In short: Silly question.  Something along the lines of "Why
>>> Java as opposed to SNOBOL?" might have been more worthy, but ...
>>
>> Long time since you were a student?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> It can be very motivating to show some examples of real
>> world stuff instead of the traditional hello world
>> examples.
>
>      Yeah, well, okay.  BUT!!!  Why is this person taking your class
> in the first place?  What motivated him to spend a beautiful sunny
> Spring afternoon learning about generics instead of romancing another
> (non-)student of the gender he prefers?  If the student is in your
> class under duress, I sincerely doubt you'll seduce him with a load
> of code he's not yet learned to read.
>
>      It is rare that motivation can be impressed on someone from without,
> and rarer still that such an "alien heat" turns out to be a Good Thing.

People usually start to learn programming because they want to write
programs.

And then they find out that they need to learn a ton of stuff where
the examples typical are very far from the type of program they
want to write.

To keep them motivated then showing them that what they are learning
are all small pieces of a large puzzle that will enable them achieve
their goal can be a very good thing.

It is very natural for students to wonder whether what they are
learning is something useful out in the real world.

Arne

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#31560

On 4/12/2015 10:12 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/6/2015 9:35 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 4/6/2015 9:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2015 9:20 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2015 6:50 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>>    A Java course participant asked me near the start of the
>>>>>    beginner's course: »What can one do with Java? Could you
>>>>>    show me three Java programs?«.
>>>>
>>>>      "What can one do with Java?  Nothing that can't be done in some
>>>> other language.  I'll give you a referral to our COBOL professor, or
>>>> to a guidance counsellor if you'd like to change your major."
>>>>
>>>>      What can one do with a hammer?  One can build, or one can
>>>> destroy.  The building may be shoddy, and the destruction may be
>>>> incomplete -- these depend on the circumstances and on the talent
>>>> and application of the hammerer -- but basically, that's It.
>>>>
>>>>      In short: Silly question.  Something along the lines of "Why
>>>> Java as opposed to SNOBOL?" might have been more worthy, but ...
>>>
>>> Long time since you were a student?
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> It can be very motivating to show some examples of real
>>> world stuff instead of the traditional hello world
>>> examples.
>>
>>      Yeah, well, okay.  BUT!!!  Why is this person taking your class
>> in the first place?  What motivated him to spend a beautiful sunny
>> Spring afternoon learning about generics instead of romancing another
>> (non-)student of the gender he prefers?  If the student is in your
>> class under duress, I sincerely doubt you'll seduce him with a load
>> of code he's not yet learned to read.
>>
>>      It is rare that motivation can be impressed on someone from without,
>> and rarer still that such an "alien heat" turns out to be a Good Thing.
>
> People usually start to learn programming because they want to write
> programs.
>
> And then they find out that they need to learn a ton of stuff where
> the examples typical are very far from the type of program they
> want to write.
>
> To keep them motivated then showing them that what they are learning
> are all small pieces of a large puzzle that will enable them achieve
> their goal can be a very good thing.
>
> It is very natural for students to wonder whether what they are
> learning is something useful out in the real world.

Example of this and a teacher less student friendly than Stefan
from the university where I studied (not related to programming,
but it is really not domain specific): a certain teacher had just
filled 6 blackboards with math and asked whether there were
any questions, one student asked whether all that math really
could be used in the real world, and the teach replied that
"the real world is an uninteresting special case".

:-)

Arne

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