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Microsoft Spartan will support Applets

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  Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-19 08:51 +0800
    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-03-18 21:37 -0400
      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-19 10:01 +0800
        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-03-18 22:05 -0400
    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-19 17:15 +1100
      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-19 19:41 +0100
        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 09:14 +1100
          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-19 23:42 +0100
          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-03-23 21:55 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-24 14:05 +1100
              Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-24 10:52 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 07:36 +1100
                  Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-26 10:00 +0100
                    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-26 22:52 +1100
                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 08:13 -0400
                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 06:40 +1100
                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 15:52 -0400
                            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 07:22 +1100
                              Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 16:43 -0400
                                Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 07:59 +1100
                                  Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 17:07 -0400
                                    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 08:24 +1100
                                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2015-03-27 14:41 +0000
                                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-28 08:24 +1100
                                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2015-03-28 16:58 +0000
                                            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 17:45 +1100
                                  Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:10 -0400
                                    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 22:13 +1100
                                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:37 -0400
                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:32 -0400
                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:40 -0400
                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-26 14:30 +0100
                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 06:37 +1100
                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-26 23:04 +0100
                            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-28 08:28 +1100
                              Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2015-03-28 17:31 +0000

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#31382

On 3/26/2015 4:59 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1qvi$g2q$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>     In any case, this sub-thread is (as I said at the start)
>> something of a digression.  For myself, I feel that Java on a
>> server or on a desktop running local applications is fine --
>> but Java in a browser?  No Thank You, Very Much.  My $0.02.
>
> Only a few relics and old fogies are talking about Java in the browser
> these days.  It doesn't belong there and never has.  Oracle and the
> browser vendors themselves are doing everything they can to convince the
> few remaining Richards etc. to get with the real world and leave the
> browser for HTML5.

     This *entire thread* is about Java in the browser!  As someone
who's posted nine messages (so far) to a Java-in-the-browser thread,
which are you: fogy or relic?

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31383

"Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1scv$kt3$1@dont-email.me...

>     This *entire thread* is about Java in the browser!  As someone
> who's posted nine messages (so far) to a Java-in-the-browser thread,
> which are you: fogy or relic?

I deliberately hijacked the thread to destroy the notion of Java in the 
browser.  Somebody had to!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31389

Qu0ll <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1scv$kt3$1@dont-email.me...
>>     This *entire thread* is about Java in the browser!  As someone
>> who's posted nine messages (so far) to a Java-in-the-browser thread,
>> which are you: fogy or relic?
> I deliberately hijacked the thread to destroy the notion of Java in the 
> browser.

Java in the browser...   but that isn't what webstart does.  Ok, it might
download a .jnlp file from the web, and that will get "executed" by the
javaws utility, but once the .jnlp file is there (and an icon placed on 
the desktop), then there's no more connection to the web browser.

Now, tell me more about how downloading a big platform-specific(*) .exe 
or .dmg or .apk or .tar.gz is better than downloading a small .jnlp and
have that download only the *new* parts of the big application.

*: and it's usually not only OS- and OS-version specific, but also 32/64-
bit'ness-specific, and maybe specific to some more aspects of the local 
system...

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#31391

"Andreas Leitgeb"  wrote in message 
news:slrnmhar31.uoi.avl@login.logic.tuwien.ac.at...

----------------
Java in the browser...   but that isn't what webstart does.  Ok, it might
download a .jnlp file from the web, and that will get "executed" by the
javaws utility, but once the .jnlp file is there (and an icon placed on
the desktop), then there's no more connection to the web browser.

Now, tell me more about how downloading a big platform-specific(*) .exe
or .dmg or .apk or .tar.gz is better than downloading a small .jnlp and
have that download only the *new* parts of the big application.

*: and it's usually not only OS- and OS-version specific, but also 32/64-
bit'ness-specific, and maybe specific to some more aspects of the local
system...
------------

Java Web Start is absolute mess and a devil of a thing to get working and 
stay working.  It relies on there being a JRE on the client system which is 
not the way of the future.

Oracle does not want you to use it and is doing everything they can to steer 
you away from it so if you want to keep battling away with it without any 
official support, then go right ahead...

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31395

Qu0ll <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> wrote:
> Java Web Start is absolute mess and a devil of a thing to get working and 
> stay working.

Tell me more about the mess that screws are, when the only tool you know
is a hammer...

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#31397

"Andreas Leitgeb"  wrote in message 
news:slrnmhdnes.uoi.avl@login.logic.tuwien.ac.at...

> Tell me more about the mess that screws are, when the only tool you know
> is a hammer...

You need to get some more tools.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31398

On 03/26/2015 04:59 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1qvi$g2q$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>     In any case, this sub-thread is (as I said at the start)
>> something of a digression.  For myself, I feel that Java on a
>> server or on a desktop running local applications is fine --
>> but Java in a browser?  No Thank You, Very Much.  My $0.02.
>
> Only a few relics and old fogies are talking about Java in the browser
> these days.  It doesn't belong there and never has.  Oracle and the
> browser vendors themselves are doing everything they can to convince the
> few remaining Richards etc. to get with the real world and leave the
> browser for HTML5.
>
Deployment in the Browser
<https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/deployment/deployment_toolkit.htm#BABJHEJA>

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#31399

"Jeff Higgins"  wrote in message news:mf8mjg$98p$1@dont-email.me...

> Deployment in the Browser
> <https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/deployment/deployment_toolkit.htm#BABJHEJA>

Note that was for JavaFX *2*.  We are currently at version *8*.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31401

On 03/29/2015 07:13 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Jeff Higgins"  wrote in message news:mf8mjg$98p$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> Deployment in the Browser
>> <https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/deployment/deployment_toolkit.htm#BABJHEJA>
>>
>
> Note that was for JavaFX *2*.  We are currently at version *8*.
>
Oops.
Deployment in the Browser
<https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/deploy/deployment_toolkit.html#BABJHEJA>

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#31400

On 03/26/2015 08:13 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
> On 3/26/2015 7:52 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>>
>> JavaFX *does* have a new deployment strategy (installer packages with VM
>> included) and does an incredible amount of things that Swing could never
>> do and in a completely different and improved way.  Plus, it now runs on
>> iOS, Android and Embedded platforms as well without any local JVM.
>
>      Slight digression: By "without any local JVM" I guess you mean the
> JVM (or a required subset) is delivered along with the application.  Is
> this safe?  How do I know I'm not being handed an unpatched, out-of-date
> JVM?  How do I know I'm not being handed a *hacked* JVM?
>
>      Way back when, it was supposed to be safe to download and run Java
> code: The JVM that you yourself had installed to run it would police
> the safety of the downloaded code.  The scheme was less than perfectly
> air-tight (ahem), but may have been slightly more secure than just
> downloading and running a random executable.  Are you saying that the
> latter is now Oracle's preferred modus operandi?
>
Self-Contained Application Packaging
<https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/deployment/self-contained-packaging.htm#BCGIBBCI>

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#31402

On 03/29/2015 07:32 AM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
> On 03/26/2015 08:13 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
>> On 3/26/2015 7:52 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>>>
>>> JavaFX *does* have a new deployment strategy (installer packages with VM
>>> included) and does an incredible amount of things that Swing could never
>>> do and in a completely different and improved way.  Plus, it now runs on
>>> iOS, Android and Embedded platforms as well without any local JVM.
>>
>>      Slight digression: By "without any local JVM" I guess you mean the
>> JVM (or a required subset) is delivered along with the application.  Is
>> this safe?  How do I know I'm not being handed an unpatched, out-of-date
>> JVM?  How do I know I'm not being handed a *hacked* JVM?
>>
>>      Way back when, it was supposed to be safe to download and run Java
>> code: The JVM that you yourself had installed to run it would police
>> the safety of the downloaded code.  The scheme was less than perfectly
>> air-tight (ahem), but may have been slightly more secure than just
>> downloading and running a random executable.  Are you saying that the
>> latter is now Oracle's preferred modus operandi?
>>
> Self-Contained Application Packaging
> <https://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/deployment/self-contained-packaging.htm#BCGIBBCI>
>
Update to Java 8
Self-Contained Application Packaging
<https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/deploy/self-contained-packaging.html#BCGIBBCI>

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#31374

On 03/26/2015 12:52 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Silvio"  wrote in message news:5513cabf$0$2829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
>> Not bad as a replacement for Swing, but nothing more than that.
>> Lacking a completely new application deployment strategy there is
>> nothing special about FX. Still needs a VM on the client. Still needs
>> to ship all application code (and third party libraries) to the
>> client. Still lets you do your own version management.
>
> JavaFX *does* have a new deployment strategy (installer packages with VM
> included) and does an incredible amount of things that Swing could never
> do and in a completely different and improved way.  Plus, it now runs on
> iOS, Android and Embedded platforms as well without any local JVM.
>

I know and that is about the worst deployment strategy since getting 12 
floppy disks to install Borland C++. And it is about the same age, 
packaged JVM's have existed since the earliest Java desktop applications 
came to Windows.

>> Nobody needs that shit anymore.
>
> It's not "shit" and maybe you should take another more recent look (like
> now) and see that you are quite wrong about this in so many ways!

It is shit in my book. You seem to enjoy taking part in rearguard 
action. Most of us have just moved on.

>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

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#31376

"Silvio"  wrote in message news:55140a09$0$2924$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

> I know and that is about the worst deployment strategy since getting 12 
> floppy disks to install Borland C++. And it is about the same age, 
> packaged JVM's have existed since the earliest Java desktop applications 
> came to Windows.

You mean the "worst deployment strategy" like every existing Windows, MacOS 
or Linux application currently uses? And for mobiles apps, every existing 
iOS and Android app uses?

Do you have some other "magic" strategy that no one knows about?

> It is shit in my book. You seem to enjoy taking part in rearguard action. 
> Most of us have just moved on.

You can keep your books then.

So what have "most of us" moved on *to*?

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31384

On 03/26/2015 08:37 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Silvio"  wrote in message news:55140a09$0$2924$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
>> I know and that is about the worst deployment strategy since getting
>> 12 floppy disks to install Borland C++. And it is about the same age,
>> packaged JVM's have existed since the earliest Java desktop
>> applications came to Windows.
>
> You mean the "worst deployment strategy" like every existing Windows,
> MacOS or Linux application currently uses? And for mobiles apps, every
> existing iOS and Android app uses?

I am pretty sure most of my Android apps do not include a copy of 
Android. I am sure most of the Windows applications I once used did not 
include a copy of Windows because they would have been quite expensive 
otherwise.

And I do think that mobile apps the Android/iOS way are a bad idea also 
but they where necessary in the past, not unlike client side desktop 
applications used to be the only viable option.

>
> Do you have some other "magic" strategy that no one knows about?
>
>> It is shit in my book. You seem to enjoy taking part in rearguard
>> action. Most of us have just moved on.
>
> You can keep your books then.
>
> So what have "most of us" moved on *to*?

Something you have probably not yet heard of or have discarded as new 
fashioned nonsense: web applications.

You know, those things the good old fashioned guys kept telling us are a 
stupid idea that will never go anywhere.

>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

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#31392

"Silvio"  wrote in message 
news:55148251$0$2873$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl...

> I am pretty sure most of my Android apps do not include a copy of Android. 
> I am sure most of the Windows applications I once used did not include a 
> copy of Windows because they would have been quite expensive otherwise.

Java apps on Android do not include a copy of Android either, same goes for 
Java on Windows so what madness is this?

> And I do think that mobile apps the Android/iOS way are a bad idea also 
> but they where necessary in the past, not unlike client side desktop 
> applications used to be the only viable option.

Bad idea?  Then why do most mobile users prefer them to browser-based apps? 
And I really mean *most* mobile users.

> Something you have probably not yet heard of or have discarded as new 
> fashioned nonsense: web applications.
>
> You know, those things the good old fashioned guys kept telling us are a 
> stupid idea that will never go anywhere.

There are applications (native) and there are web sites (run in browsers). 
There is nothing else.  If you are happy to deploy your "application" as a 
web site then don't expect many happy users.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31396

Qu0ll <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Silvio"  wrote in message 
> news:55148251$0$2873$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
>> I am pretty sure most of my Android apps do not include a copy of Android. 
>> I am sure most of the Windows applications I once used did not include a 
>> copy of Windows because they would have been quite expensive otherwise.
> Java apps on Android do not include a copy of Android either,

Because Android fortunately has some kind of "Java" on it, already,
and therefore, at least on Android, Java apps don't have to ship a JVM
alongside.  The kind of concept that Oracle seems so scared of, lately...

>> And I do think that mobile apps the Android/iOS way are a bad idea also 
>> but they where necessary in the past, not unlike client side desktop 
>> applications used to be the only viable option.
> Bad idea?  Then why do most mobile users prefer them to browser-based apps? 
> And I really mean *most* mobile users.

It most likely depends on whether the app is useable offline. If it is,
then obviously users will want it offline.   If the app is just a client 
for some service on the web, then users probably want to download as little
as necessary to be able to use the online service.

The reason why there are even apps for web services, like FB, G+, Gmail,...
is that most browsers on tablets still suck and many web sites just aren't
designed for small screen phones/tablets or have special tablet-versions of
their web sites that lack certain features.

> There are applications (native) and there are web sites (run in browsers). 
> There is nothing else.

Obviouly nothing else within your horizon, which doesn't mean that there 
really isn't anything else.  There certainly *was* something else during
the last 10 years, and it worked pretty well for our customers.

Not sure if they will prefer to pay for rewriting the app as a web site,
or have an app manually rolled out to a large number of intranet-clients,
or if they will bite the bullet and just stick with JVM 1.6, that still
works and hasn't got a self destruction timer built in.

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