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Microsoft Spartan will support Applets

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  Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-19 08:51 +0800
    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-03-18 21:37 -0400
      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-19 10:01 +0800
        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-03-18 22:05 -0400
    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-19 17:15 +1100
      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-19 19:41 +0100
        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 09:14 +1100
          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-19 23:42 +0100
          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-03-23 21:55 -0400
            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-24 14:05 +1100
              Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-24 10:52 +0100
                Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 07:36 +1100
                  Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-26 10:00 +0100
                    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-26 22:52 +1100
                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 08:13 -0400
                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 06:40 +1100
                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 15:52 -0400
                            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 07:22 +1100
                              Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 16:43 -0400
                                Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 07:59 +1100
                                  Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-03-26 17:07 -0400
                                    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 08:24 +1100
                                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2015-03-27 14:41 +0000
                                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-28 08:24 +1100
                                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2015-03-28 16:58 +0000
                                            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 17:45 +1100
                                  Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:10 -0400
                                    Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 22:13 +1100
                                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:37 -0400
                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:32 -0400
                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-29 07:40 -0400
                      Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-26 14:30 +0100
                        Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 06:37 +1100
                          Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2015-03-26 23:04 +0100
                            Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2015-03-28 08:28 +1100
                              Re: Microsoft Spartan will support Applets Andreas Leitgeb <avl@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2015-03-28 17:31 +0000

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#31330 — Microsoft Spartan will support Applets

http://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/02/26/open-source-and-spartan-browser.aspx

"Spartan will have an extensions capability, allowing applets to run 
with the browser"

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#31331

On 3/18/2015 8:51 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
> http://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/02/26/open-source-and-spartan-browser.aspx
>
>
> "Spartan will have an extensions capability, allowing applets to run
> with the browser"

I am not surprised, but you should not consider it a pro-applet
decision.

The needed an extension mechanism to support Flash (due to market share)
and SilverLight (to avoid making angry SL developers even more angry) -
and the same extension mechanism can also be used to create a Java
plugin.

Arne

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#31333

On 3/19/2015 9:37 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 3/18/2015 8:51 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>> http://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/02/26/open-source-and-spartan-browser.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>> "Spartan will have an extensions capability, allowing applets to run
>> with the browser"
>
> I am not surprised, but you should not consider it a pro-applet
> decision.
>

You're just a "glass half empty" kinda guy Arne.

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#31334

On 3/18/2015 10:01 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 9:37 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 3/18/2015 8:51 PM, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> http://redmondmag.com/articles/2015/02/26/open-source-and-spartan-browser.aspx
>>>
>>> "Spartan will have an extensions capability, allowing applets to run
>>> with the browser"
>>
>> I am not surprised, but you should not consider it a pro-applet
>> decision.
>>
>
> You're just a "glass half empty" kinda guy Arne.

In this particular case: yes. Sorry.

:-)

Arne

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#31335

"Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:med6i8$qth$1@speranza.aioe.org...

> "Spartan will have an extensions capability, allowing applets to run with 
> the browser"

Great! So finally you will have the one and only place to run your 
wonderful, out-dated and deprecated technology that Oracle themselves is 
trying to get you to move away from.

Just make sure all your millions of customers are running the latest version 
of Windows and Spartan and you're finally on to a real winner!

And I have absolutely no doubt that Microsoft will make running applets an 
incredibly seamless, streamlined experience with no nasty warnings, pop-up, 
security configuration settings or blockages in the way of simply clicking 
and running the damn things ;-)

Meanwhile, *everyone* else in the world will be enjoying seamless, 
streamlined *modern* browser-based technologies like HTML5, CSS, Canvas and 
WebGL.

But I am sure you will have no problem competing with those stupid people...

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31336

On 03/19/2015 07:15 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Richard Maher"  wrote in message news:med6i8$qth$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>> "Spartan will have an extensions capability, allowing applets to run
>> with the browser"
>
> Great! So finally you will have the one and only place to run your
> wonderful, out-dated and deprecated technology that Oracle themselves is
> trying to get you to move away from.
>
> Just make sure all your millions of customers are running the latest
> version of Windows and Spartan and you're finally on to a real winner!
>
> And I have absolutely no doubt that Microsoft will make running applets
> an incredibly seamless, streamlined experience with no nasty warnings,
> pop-up, security configuration settings or blockages in the way of
> simply clicking and running the damn things ;-)
>
> Meanwhile, *everyone* else in the world will be enjoying seamless,
> streamlined *modern* browser-based technologies like HTML5, CSS, Canvas
> and WebGL.
>
> But I am sure you will have no problem competing with those stupid
> people...
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

Luckily we always have JWS...

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#31338

"Silvio"  wrote in message 
news:550b185d$0$2970$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl...

> Luckily we always have JWS...

Umm, not really.  Oracle doesn't want you to use that either.  All we really 
have is pure Java for server-side and JavaFX for client-side.  Anything else 
is not really supported or encouraged any more.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31339

On 03/19/2015 11:14 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Silvio"  wrote in message
> news:550b185d$0$2970$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
>
>> Luckily we always have JWS...
>
> Umm, not really.  Oracle doesn't want you to use that either.  All we
> really have is pure Java for server-side and JavaFX for client-side.
> Anything else is not really supported or encouraged any more.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

Which is exactly what I meant to say, except for the FX part. Oracle 
doesn't really want you to use that also but they just don't want to 
upset everyone at once.

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#31359

On 3/19/2015 6:14 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Silvio"  wrote in message
> news:550b185d$0$2970$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl...
>
>> Luckily we always have JWS...
>
> Umm, not really.  Oracle doesn't want you to use that either.  All we
> really have is pure Java for server-side and JavaFX for client-side.
> Anything else is not really supported or encouraged any more.

????

applet/object tag, Java Web Start and real desktop apps are deployment 
methodologies.

AWT, Swing and JavaFX are GUI frameworks.

I don't really understand the JWS vs JavaFX point.

Arne

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#31360

"Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message 
news:5510c401$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...

> applet/object tag, Java Web Start and real desktop apps are deployment 
> methodologies.

Correct - except the first 2 are no longer supported or recommended by 
Oracle.

> AWT, Swing and JavaFX are GUI frameworks.

Correct - except the first 2 are no longer supported or recommended by 
Oracle.

> I don't really understand the JWS vs JavaFX point.

JavaFX apps are meant to be deployed using their own application packaging 
mechanism which bundles an appropriate JRE with the installer (on the 
desktop that it is).  If JavaFX ever becomes truly viable on iOS or Android 
then it will be available through the app stores like everything else.

JWS has nothing to do with JavaFX.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31361

On 03/24/2015 04:05 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message
> news:5510c401$0$287$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
>
>> applet/object tag, Java Web Start and real desktop apps are deployment
>> methodologies.
>
> Correct - except the first 2 are no longer supported or recommended by
> Oracle.
>
>> AWT, Swing and JavaFX are GUI frameworks.
>
> Correct - except the first 2 are no longer supported or recommended by
> Oracle.
>
>> I don't really understand the JWS vs JavaFX point.
>
> JavaFX apps are meant to be deployed using their own application
> packaging mechanism which bundles an appropriate JRE with the installer
> (on the desktop that it is).  If JavaFX ever becomes truly viable on iOS
> or Android then it will be available through the app stores like
> everything else.
>
> JWS has nothing to do with JavaFX.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

Come on guys, let's stop fooling ourselves here.

If you have to maintain existing client side 
applications/applets/whatever then that is bad enough and I feel sorry 
for you because you have to hold on to the end of a slippery rope.

But deep down we all know better than to develop new GUIs with Java or 
even plan to support existing ones for too long. Anybody who decides to 
believe otherwise is in for a tough ride.

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#31362

"Silvio"  wrote in message news:551133f7$0$2953$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl... 

> Come on guys, let's stop fooling ourselves here.

Who is being fooled?

> If you have to maintain existing client side 
> applications/applets/whatever then that is bad enough and I feel sorry 
> for you because you have to hold on to the end of a slippery rope.

Agreed.

> But deep down we all know better than to develop new GUIs with Java or 
> even plan to support existing ones for too long. Anybody who decides to 
> believe otherwise is in for a tough ride.

Have you even *tried* JavaFX?

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

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#31370

On 03/24/2015 09:36 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Silvio"  wrote in message news:551133f7$0$2953$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>> Come on guys, let's stop fooling ourselves here.
>
> Who is being fooled?
>
>> If you have to maintain existing client side
>> applications/applets/whatever then that is bad enough and I feel sorry
>> for you because you have to hold on to the end of a slippery rope.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> But deep down we all know better than to develop new GUIs with Java or
>> even plan to support existing ones for too long. Anybody who decides
>> to believe otherwise is in for a tough ride.
>
> Have you even *tried* JavaFX?
>
> --

Sure. I have done so at several points in time, starting when we still 
had the JavaFX Script language. I hated the whole script idea but when 
they ditched that and reduced it to no more than the new Swing I tried 
it again, porting a small part of an application which was already 
legacy just try it.

Not bad as a replacement for Swing, but nothing more than that. Lacking 
a completely new application deployment strategy there is nothing 
special about FX. Still needs a VM on the client. Still needs to ship 
all application code (and third party libraries) to the client. Still 
lets you do your own version management.

Nobody needs that shit anymore.

Silvio

PS: OK, some applications like the well known Java IDEs (Eclipse, NB, 
IDEA) do all right but they serve a developer community willing to do 
the work themselves.

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#31371

"Silvio"  wrote in message news:5513cabf$0$2829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

> Not bad as a replacement for Swing, but nothing more than that. Lacking a 
> completely new application deployment strategy there is nothing special 
> about FX. Still needs a VM on the client. Still needs to ship all 
> application code (and third party libraries) to the client. Still lets you 
> do your own version management.

JavaFX *does* have a new deployment strategy (installer packages with VM 
included) and does an incredible amount of things that Swing could never do 
and in a completely different and improved way.  Plus, it now runs on iOS, 
Android and Embedded platforms as well without any local JVM.

> Nobody needs that shit anymore.

It's not "shit" and maybe you should take another more recent look (like 
now) and see that you are quite wrong about this in so many ways!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31372

On 3/26/2015 7:52 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
>
> JavaFX *does* have a new deployment strategy (installer packages with VM
> included) and does an incredible amount of things that Swing could never
> do and in a completely different and improved way.  Plus, it now runs on
> iOS, Android and Embedded platforms as well without any local JVM.

     Slight digression: By "without any local JVM" I guess you mean the
JVM (or a required subset) is delivered along with the application.  Is
this safe?  How do I know I'm not being handed an unpatched, out-of-date
JVM?  How do I know I'm not being handed a *hacked* JVM?

     Way back when, it was supposed to be safe to download and run Java
code: The JVM that you yourself had installed to run it would police
the safety of the downloaded code.  The scheme was less than perfectly
air-tight (ahem), but may have been slightly more secure than just
downloading and running a random executable.  Are you saying that the
latter is now Oracle's preferred modus operandi?

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31377

"Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf0t3v$ab7$1@dont-email.me...

>  Slight digression: By "without any local JVM" I guess you mean the
> JVM (or a required subset) is delivered along with the application.  Is
> this safe?  How do I know I'm not being handed an unpatched, out-of-date
> JVM?  How do I know I'm not being handed a *hacked* JVM?

What I mean by "no local JVM" is in reference to say the way JavaFX apps are 
deployed and run on iOS.  There is a product called RoboVM which translates 
the Java bytecodes into actual Objective-C and compiles it so what you end 
up with is just another native, Objective-C application; not really a Java 
application at all.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31378

On 3/26/2015 3:40 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf0t3v$ab7$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>  Slight digression: By "without any local JVM" I guess you mean the
>> JVM (or a required subset) is delivered along with the application.  Is
>> this safe?  How do I know I'm not being handed an unpatched, out-of-date
>> JVM?  How do I know I'm not being handed a *hacked* JVM?
>
> What I mean by "no local JVM" is in reference to say the way JavaFX apps
> are deployed and run on iOS.  There is a product called RoboVM which
> translates the Java bytecodes into actual Objective-C and compiles it so
> what you end up with is just another native, Objective-C application;
> not really a Java application at all.

     Ah.  So, you just download and run an executable, and hope for the
best.  Java without even Java's imperfect sandbox.

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31379

"Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1o05$26c$1@dont-email.me...

>  Ah.  So, you just download and run an executable, and hope for the
> best.  Java without even Java's imperfect sandbox.

But how is this different from any other app available in the iOS App Store?

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#31380

On 3/26/2015 4:22 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1o05$26c$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>  Ah.  So, you just download and run an executable, and hope for the
>> best.  Java without even Java's imperfect sandbox.
>
> But how is this different from any other app available in the iOS App
> Store?

     I have no experience with the iOS App Store.  None.

     It does occur to me, though, that adding an extra layer of
translation (bytecode to machine instructions) might make the
verification/inspection process harder.

     In any case, this sub-thread is (as I said at the start)
something of a digression.  For myself, I feel that Java on a
server or on a desktop running local applications is fine --
but Java in a browser?  No Thank You, Very Much.  My $0.02.

-- 
esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid
"Don't be afraid of work. Make work afraid of you." -- TLM

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#31381

"Eric Sosman"  wrote in message news:mf1qvi$g2q$1@dont-email.me...

>     In any case, this sub-thread is (as I said at the start)
> something of a digression.  For myself, I feel that Java on a
> server or on a desktop running local applications is fine --
> but Java in a browser?  No Thank You, Very Much.  My $0.02.

Only a few relics and old fogies are talking about Java in the browser these 
days.  It doesn't belong there and never has.  Oracle and the browser 
vendors themselves are doing everything they can to convince the few 
remaining Richards etc. to get with the real world and leave the browser for 
HTML5.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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