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Accessing Access database files

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  Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-01 16:28 +0000
    Re: Accessing Access database files markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2014-07-01 09:55 -0700
      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-01 17:29 +0000
      Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-01 22:49 -0400
      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-02 10:03 +0000
        Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-02 21:06 -0400
          Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-03 09:48 +0000
            Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-03 16:31 -0400
              Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-03 22:03 +0000
                Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 12:01 -0400
                  Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-06 16:42 +0000
                    Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 12:45 -0400
                    Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 12:47 -0400
    Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-01 22:47 -0400
      Re: Accessing Access database files markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2014-07-01 20:11 -0700
        Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-02 21:05 -0400
    Re: Accessing Access database files Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-07-02 16:57 +1000
      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-02 10:20 +0000
        Re: Accessing Access database files Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2014-07-02 20:22 +0200
    Re: Accessing Access database files Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-02 09:40 -0700
      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-02 21:28 +0000
        Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-02 21:09 -0400
    Re: Accessing Access database files Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-02 17:08 -0400
      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-02 22:39 +0000
    Re: Accessing Access database files Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-07-05 16:28 -0700
      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-06 08:51 +0000
        Re: Accessing Access database files Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-07-06 19:01 +1000
          Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-06 17:11 +0000
            Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 15:17 -0400
              Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-06 19:30 +0000
                Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 19:10 -0400
                  Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-07 11:26 +0000
            Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 15:27 -0400
              Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-06 22:37 +0000
                Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 19:06 -0400
                  Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-07 11:45 +0000
                    Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-07 17:50 -0400
                      Re: Accessing Access database files Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-07-07 22:34 +0000
                        Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-07 19:24 -0400
      Re: Accessing Access database files Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-07-06 11:55 -0400

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#28884 — Accessing Access database files

Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java 
program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access 
database? 

I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table 
contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run 
it because all my computers run Linux.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28885

On 7/1/2014 9:28 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java
> program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access
> database?
>
> I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table
> contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run
> it because all my computers run Linux.


I haven't tried this myself, but Stack Overflow says:

"You can use JDBC-ODBC bridge by calling:

Class.forName("sun.jdbc.odbc.JdbcOdbcDriver")

Then you can use JDBC database URL in form:

jdbc:odbc:Driver={Microsoft Access Driver (*.mdb)};DBQ=c:\\Nwind.mdb

or if you configure your database in ODBC manager you can use its alias:

jdbc:odbc:northwind

"

You might need an older copy of the JDK because the driver was removed 
in JDK 8.  You can find drivers in a couple of places:

http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/
http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html

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#28888

On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:55:30 -0700, markspace wrote:

> On 7/1/2014 9:28 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java
>> program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access
>> database?
>>
>> I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table
>> contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run
>> it because all my computers run Linux.
> 
> 
> I haven't tried this myself, but Stack Overflow says:
> 
> "You can use JDBC-ODBC bridge by calling:
> 
> Class.forName("sun.jdbc.odbc.JdbcOdbcDriver")
> 
> Then you can use JDBC database URL in form:
> 
> jdbc:odbc:Driver={Microsoft Access Driver (*.mdb)};DBQ=c:\\Nwind.mdb
> 
> or if you configure your database in ODBC manager you can use its alias:
> 
> jdbc:odbc:northwind
> 
> "
> 
> You might need an older copy of the JDK because the driver was removed
> in JDK 8.  You can find drivers in a couple of places:
> 
> http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/
> http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html

Does this stuff work without a copy of the Access software?
I'm puzzled because EasySoft makes a big fuss about leaving the .mdb file 
on the PC its always lived on, but I have the .mdb files I'd like to look 
at already on my Linux box. 

What this is about: I'm in the process of taking over the Roster Manager 
role for my gliding club. The task is primarily concerned with looking 
after the rosters database. There is currently no ERD for it, so it would 
be nice if I could use the jsql tool to look at the schema by accessing 
the .mdb file.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28901

On 7/1/2014 12:55 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 7/1/2014 9:28 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java
>> program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access
>> database?
>>
>> I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table
>> contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run
>> it because all my computers run Linux.
>
>
> I haven't tried this myself, but Stack Overflow says:
>
> "You can use JDBC-ODBC bridge by calling:
>
> Class.forName("sun.jdbc.odbc.JdbcOdbcDriver")
>
> Then you can use JDBC database URL in form:
>
> jdbc:odbc:Driver={Microsoft Access Driver (*.mdb)};DBQ=c:\\Nwind.mdb
>
> or if you configure your database in ODBC manager you can use its alias:
>
> jdbc:odbc:northwind
>
> "

If you are on Windows then it works somewhat OK.

The JDBC ODB bridge has some problems (at least early version did not
support multi-threaded usage) and Access has some limitations as
database.

But many people including me has used it. One just need to
know what not to do with the config.

Arne

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#28906

On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:55:30 -0700, markspace wrote:

> You might need an older copy of the JDK because the driver was removed
> in JDK 8.  You can find drivers in a couple of places:
> 
> http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/
> http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html
>
Thanks for those references. They look like exactly what I was hoping to 
find. So does the SQLeo application which is referenced from the 
UCanAcccess website.

I kind of skipped over them  at first: my bad. My excuse is that I'd been 
searching for ODBC/JDBC drivers earlier and had only found expensive paid-
for offerings (the same price or more than Access itself) that all 
targeted Access the database server rather than reading the file directly 
as I now see that Jackcess does.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28925

On 7/2/2014 6:03 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:55:30 -0700, markspace wrote:
>> You might need an older copy of the JDK because the driver was removed
>> in JDK 8.  You can find drivers in a couple of places:
>>
>> http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/
>> http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html
>>
> Thanks for those references. They look like exactly what I was hoping to
> find. So does the SQLeo application which is referenced from the
> UCanAcccess website.

If they suit your needs then fine.

> I kind of skipped over them  at first: my bad. My excuse is that I'd been
> searching for ODBC/JDBC drivers earlier and had only found expensive paid-
> for offerings (the same price or more than Access itself) that all
> targeted Access the database server rather than reading the file directly
> as I now see that Jackcess does.

There are no such thing as a MS Access database server.

MS Access is always embedded.

Arne

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#28929

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 21:06:37 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 7/2/2014 6:03 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:55:30 -0700, markspace wrote:
>>> You might need an older copy of the JDK because the driver was removed
>>> in JDK 8.  You can find drivers in a couple of places:
>>>
>>> http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/
>>> http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html
>>>
>> Thanks for those references. They look like exactly what I was hoping
>> to find. So does the SQLeo application which is referenced from the
>> UCanAcccess website.
> 
> If they suit your needs then fine.
> 
>> I kind of skipped over them  at first: my bad. My excuse is that I'd
>> been searching for ODBC/JDBC drivers earlier and had only found
>> expensive paid-
>> for offerings (the same price or more than Access itself) that all
>> targeted Access the database server rather than reading the file
>> directly as I now see that Jackcess does.
> 
> There are no such thing as a MS Access database server.
>
What about the JET server?
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28939

On 7/3/2014 5:48 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 21:06:37 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> On 7/2/2014 6:03 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Tue, 01 Jul 2014 09:55:30 -0700, markspace wrote:
>>>> You might need an older copy of the JDK because the driver was removed
>>>> in JDK 8.  You can find drivers in a couple of places:
>>>>
>>>> http://jackcess.sourceforge.net/
>>>> http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html
>>>>
>>> Thanks for those references. They look like exactly what I was hoping
>>> to find. So does the SQLeo application which is referenced from the
>>> UCanAcccess website.
>>
>> If they suit your needs then fine.
>>
>>> I kind of skipped over them  at first: my bad. My excuse is that I'd
>>> been searching for ODBC/JDBC drivers earlier and had only found
>>> expensive paid-
>>> for offerings (the same price or more than Access itself) that all
>>> targeted Access the database server rather than reading the file
>>> directly as I now see that Jackcess does.
>>
>> There are no such thing as a MS Access database server.
>>
> What about the JET server?

Never heard about it.

Google seems to indicate that it is a Solaris admin tool of
some kind.

What is it?

Arne

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#28940

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:31:33 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 7/3/2014 5:48 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> What about the JET server?
> 
> Never heard about it.
> 
> Google seems to indicate that it is a Solaris admin tool of some kind.
> 
> What is it?
>
I think a number of products from different sources share the JET moniker 
but AFAIK only MS use it for a database engine.
 
Its the database server part of MS Access. Add a graphical package to it 
and there's your desktop Access app. It can use ODBC to connect to other 
databases or to accept ODBC connections from clients. And, of course, 
wherever ODBC goes, JDBC can go too. 

More than yo ever wanted to know can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Access

I've known the name for years (it stands for Joint Engine Technology) and 
that it was the guts of Access but never more than  that. Now you know 
why I was surprised and gratified to find that there is a JDBC driver 
that can access .MDB files without talking to the MS Jet database engine.

There is also an ODBC equivalent, written in C++, to the JDBC UCanAccess 
driver but it can only read .mdb files.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28962

On 7/3/2014 6:03 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:31:33 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> On 7/3/2014 5:48 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>
>>> What about the JET server?
>>
>> Never heard about it.
>>
>> Google seems to indicate that it is a Solaris admin tool of some kind.
>>
>> What is it?
>>
> I think a number of products from different sources share the JET moniker
> but AFAIK only MS use it for a database engine.
>
> Its the database server part of MS Access.

There are no database server in MS Access. It is embedded database only.

> More than yo ever wanted to know can be found here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Access

That articles not not mention any "JET server" at all. In fact it
explicit states:

"Microsoft Access is a file server-based database"

> I've known the name for years (it stands for Joint Engine Technology) and
> that it was the guts of Access but never more than  that. Now you know
> why I was surprised and gratified to find that there is a JDBC driver
> that can access .MDB files without talking to the MS Jet database engine.

The data exist in a disk file. Of course you can write Java code that
can read that file.

But MS only supports going through the Jet Engine.

Arne

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#28971

On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:01:32 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 7/3/2014 6:03 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:31:33 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/3/2014 5:48 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>
>>>> What about the JET server?
>>>
>>> Never heard about it.
>>>
>>> Google seems to indicate that it is a Solaris admin tool of some kind.
>>>
>>> What is it?
>>>
>> I think a number of products from different sources share the JET
>> moniker but AFAIK only MS use it for a database engine.
>>
>> Its the database server part of MS Access.
> 
> There are no database server in MS Access. It is embedded database only.
> 
>> More than yo ever wanted to know can be found here:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Access
> 
> That articles not not mention any "JET server" at all. In fact it
> explicit states:
> 
> "Microsoft Access is a file server-based database"
>
This is "no mention at all"?

"Microsoft Access, also known as Microsoft Office Access, is a database 
management system from Microsoft that combines the relational Microsoft 
Jet Database Engine with a graphical user interface and software-
development tools." 
- the first sentence on the page I posted the URL for.

> The data exist in a disk file. Of course you can write Java code that
> can read that file.
>
Of course, and the Java code exists. Jackcess is a Java class library 
that implements low level access to it and UCanAccess is a Java class 
library is a JDBC driver which delegates file access to Jackcess and SQL 
interpretation to the HSQLDB class library.
 
> But MS only supports going through the Jet Engine.
>
Indeed, and very many of the ODBC Access drivers connect to it, though it 
can be quite difficult to understand exactly what any particular driver 
does because descriptions provided by the authors and vendors of third 
party drivers are often anything but clear. I think MS-provided ODBC 
drivers use the JET Database Engine. 

And, since at least some JDBC Access drivers are wrappers for ODBC 
drivers, its safe to say that the same applies to them too. My original 
search, which was probably for "JDBC Access", only found a few commercial 
drivers with eye-watering prices and which failed to say whether or not 
they used the JET Database Engine to handle Access database files.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28972

On 7/6/2014 12:42 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:01:32 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>
>> On 7/3/2014 6:03 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 16:31:33 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/3/2014 5:48 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What about the JET server?
>>>>
>>>> Never heard about it.
>>>>
>>>> Google seems to indicate that it is a Solaris admin tool of some kind.
>>>>
>>>> What is it?
>>>>
>>> I think a number of products from different sources share the JET
>>> moniker but AFAIK only MS use it for a database engine.
>>>
>>> Its the database server part of MS Access.
>>
>> There are no database server in MS Access. It is embedded database only.
>>
>>> More than yo ever wanted to know can be found here:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Access
>>
>> That articles not not mention any "JET server" at all. In fact it
>> explicit states:
>>
>> "Microsoft Access is a file server-based database"
>>
> This is "no mention at all"?

Correct.

> "Microsoft Access, also known as Microsoft Office Access, is a database
> management system from Microsoft that combines the relational Microsoft
> Jet Database Engine with a graphical user interface and software-
> development tools."
> - the first sentence on the page I posted the URL for.

I can really not see the term "JET server" anywhere in that paragraph.

It talks about DBMS and engine, which does not imply a server. They
apply to both database servers and embedded databases.

Arne

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#28973

On 7/6/2014 12:42 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:01:32 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> The data exist in a disk file. Of course you can write Java code that
>> can read that file.
>>
> Of course, and the Java code exists. Jackcess is a Java class library
> that implements low level access to it and UCanAccess is a Java class
> library is a JDBC driver which delegates file access to Jackcess and SQL
> interpretation to the HSQLDB class library.
>
>> But MS only supports going through the Jet Engine.
>>
> Indeed, and very many of the ODBC Access drivers connect to it, though it
> can be quite difficult to understand exactly what any particular driver
> does because descriptions provided by the authors and vendors of third
> party drivers are often anything but clear. I think MS-provided ODBC
> drivers use the JET Database Engine.

I am sure it does.

> And, since at least some JDBC Access drivers are wrappers for ODBC
> drivers, its safe to say that the same applies to them too. My original
> search, which was probably for "JDBC Access", only found a few commercial
> drivers with eye-watering prices and which failed to say whether or not
> they used the JET Database Engine to handle Access database files.

Very likely they do. Selling a commercial product based on reverse
engineering of MDB format would be rather risky.

Arne

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#28900

On 7/1/2014 12:28 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java
> program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access
> database?
>
> I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table
> contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run
> it because all my computers run Linux.

I don't think you can get it to work.

The semi-official way to do it is to use the JDBC ODBC bridge.

But that uses the Access ODBC driver which only exist on Windows.

You need a Windows computer.

Arne

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#28903

On 7/1/2014 7:47 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> The semi-official way to do it is to use the JDBC ODBC bridge.
>
> But that uses the Access ODBC driver which only exist on Windows.
>
> You need a Windows computer.

Two of the links I posted used Java only, and therefore will run on any 
system that runs a JRE/JDK.

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#28923

On 7/1/2014 11:11 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 7/1/2014 7:47 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> The semi-official way to do it is to use the JDBC ODBC bridge.
>>
>> But that uses the Access ODBC driver which only exist on Windows.
>>
>> You need a Windows computer.
>
> Two of the links I posted used Java only, and therefore will run on any
> system that runs a JRE/JDK.

Really just one. The second software use the first software
for file access.

Such software do exist.

But it is based on reverse engineering. If it works then fine, but
if it don't then little to do about it.

Arne

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#28905

Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:

>Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java 
>program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access 
>database? 
>
>I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table 
>contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run 
>it because all my computers run Linux.

You need a JDBC driver for the Access database. Google turned up this
one <http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html>. The site includes
some details to help connect the database to Open Office so you can
examine the tables without writing any Java code.

I haven't tried it because I use the JDBC-ODBC bridge on a Windows
machine but that would require an ODBC driver on your Linux computer.
 

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#28907

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 16:57:27 +1000, Gordon Levi wrote:

> Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java
>>program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access
>>database?
>>
>>I don't need to update the database, just examine the schema and table
>>contents. I don't have a copy od the Access software and nowhere to run
>>it because all my computers run Linux.
> 
> You need a JDBC driver for the Access database. Google turned up this
> one <http://ucanaccess.sourceforge.net/site.html>. The site includes
> some details to help connect the database to Open Office so you can
> examine the tables without writing any Java code.
> 
> I haven't tried it because I use the JDBC-ODBC bridge on a Windows
> machine but that would require an ODBC driver on your Linux computer.

Actually, UCanAccess fits the bill almost perfectly and using SQLeo 
rather than Office Libre as the client application gets closer to what I 
need for looking at the DB schema. Either oocalc or a very simple bit of 
Java that can write query results into a text file can handle my data 
extraction needs.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#28912

On 02.07.2014 12:20, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> Actually, UCanAccess fits the bill almost perfectly and using SQLeo
> rather than Office Libre as the client application gets closer to what I
> need for looking at the DB schema. Either oocalc or a very simple bit of
> Java that can write query results into a text file can handle my data
> extraction needs.

Thanks for the pointer!  I always used Open/Libre Office when in needed 
to access an Access database - even for modifications.

Kind regards

	robert

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#28909

On Tue, 1 Jul 2014 16:28:25 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
<martin@address-in-sig.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>Is there a JDBC driver or non-JDBC class library that would give a Java 
>program read/write access to the tables and schema in a MS Access 
>database? 

have a look at http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdbc.html

under the ODBC bridge.  I that is how you can get at them, not wildly
efficient, but I doubt you need it.

-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com
A program is only as good as its worst piece of code.
~ Joshua Cramer

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