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What's the best non-JVM native language to look at?

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  What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-16 04:35 -0800
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-16 13:05 +0000
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-16 07:05 -0800
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-16 16:11 +0000
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-16 20:39 +0000
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-16 16:18 -0500
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-16 21:50 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-16 17:27 -0500
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-01-17 10:28 -0600
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-17 18:08 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-01-17 15:44 -0600
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 02:09 +0000
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-17 22:15 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 17:21 +0000
                  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 12:41 -0500
                    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 19:46 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-18 03:56 -0400
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-18 08:58 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 02:02 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-17 22:17 -0500
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 17:36 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-28 10:13 -0400
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-28 16:21 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-28 22:09 +0000
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 20:02 -0500
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-16 11:30 -0600
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-16 23:27 +0100
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-17 01:08 -0400
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-01-17 01:43 -0800
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-17 01:53 -0800
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-17 11:03 -0500
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-17 11:27 -0500
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 19:49 -0500
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-19 12:35 +0000
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-19 17:05 -0500
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-19 23:44 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-19 19:45 -0500
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 19:55 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 20:04 -0500
                  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 15:38 -0500
                    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 18:30 -0500
                      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 19:43 -0500
                        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 20:16 -0500
                          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 20:30 -0500
                          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 20:43 -0500
                            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-21 00:55 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-20 21:41 +0000
                  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 17:10 -0500
                    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-21 08:59 +0000
                    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-21 04:03 -0600
                      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-21 11:53 +0000
                        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:09 +0000
                    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:05 +0000
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-20 21:39 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 17:21 -0500
                  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:17 +0000
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 22:34 -0500

Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]

#27367

On 01/20/2014 03:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/19/2014 8:04 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> On 01/19/2014 07:55 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> ????
>>>
>>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>>>
>>>
>>  From the presentation:
>> Platform-specific Features
>> Similar features with different APIs and implementations
>> Do not try to reuse code for these features
>> Some examples:
>> Application lifecycle (PLM)
>> Background processing
>> Tiles and toast notifications
>> Image/video capture
>> System services
>> App bar
>> Networking differences
>
> I did not watch it.

Me neither.
I downloaded the slides for the first part of the presentation.
Then I would have been required to register before any more access. :(

> But "Do not try to reuse code for these features" sounds like
> "the API is the same but you should do things differently".

Actually, the point was that these APIs are different and here
is what you can do to maximize code reuse.

One of the slides promises:
<quote>
We are on the path to
Windows and Windows Phone
convergence
</quote>

> Which does not surprise me.
>
> Arne
>
>

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#27368

On 1/20/2014 6:30 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
> On 01/20/2014 03:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 1/19/2014 8:04 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>> On 01/19/2014 07:55 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> ????
>>>>
>>>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>>>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>  From the presentation:
>>> Platform-specific Features
>>> Similar features with different APIs and implementations
>>> Do not try to reuse code for these features
>>> Some examples:
>>> Application lifecycle (PLM)
>>> Background processing
>>> Tiles and toast notifications
>>> Image/video capture
>>> System services
>>> App bar
>>> Networking differences
>>
>> I did not watch it.
>
> Me neither.
> I downloaded the slides for the first part of the presentation.
> Then I would have been required to register before any more access. :(
>
>> But "Do not try to reuse code for these features" sounds like
>> "the API is the same but you should do things differently".
>
> Actually, the point was that these APIs are different and here
> is what you can do to maximize code reuse.
>
> One of the slides promises:
> <quote>
> We are on the path to
> Windows and Windows Phone
> convergence
> </quote>

"these APIs are different" is not a very technical description. It
is even close to me misleading.

MS invented a new API to be shared between Windows 8 and
Windows Phone 8.

Exactly what was requested in this thread.

Windows Phone did not get the full version in 8.0.

People that has counted say that WP 8 WinRT has
2800/11000 of what Win8 WinRT has (measured in
public members of the classes).

MS has also stated that they will increase that in 8.1
(already released for Win, soon to be released for WP)
and further increase it in 9.

But some classes may never be in WP. I am skeptical about
namespaces like:
* Windows.Devices.Enumeration.Pnp
* Windows.Devices.HumanInterfaceDevice
* Windows.Graphics.Printing

Arne

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#27369

On 01/20/2014 07:43 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/20/2014 6:30 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> On 01/20/2014 03:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 1/19/2014 8:04 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:55 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> ????
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>>>>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  From the presentation:
>>>> Platform-specific Features
>>>> Similar features with different APIs and implementations
>>>> Do not try to reuse code for these features
>>>> Some examples:
>>>> Application lifecycle (PLM)
>>>> Background processing
>>>> Tiles and toast notifications
>>>> Image/video capture
>>>> System services
>>>> App bar
>>>> Networking differences
>>>
>>> I did not watch it.
>>
>> Me neither.
>> I downloaded the slides for the first part of the presentation.
>> Then I would have been required to register before any more access. :(
>>
>>> But "Do not try to reuse code for these features" sounds like
>>> "the API is the same but you should do things differently".
>>
>> Actually, the point was that these APIs are different and here
>> is what you can do to maximize code reuse.
>>
>> One of the slides promises:
>> <quote>
>> We are on the path to
>> Windows and Windows Phone
>> convergence
>> </quote>
>
> "these APIs are different" is not a very technical description. It
> is even close to me misleading.

I guess short of registering for the course and watching 4-6 hours
of video you could download the first section of slides, as I've done.
>
> MS invented a new API to be shared between Windows 8 and
> Windows Phone 8.

MS has "invented" a lot of stuff. They've also produced
two platforms, Windows 8 and  Windows Phone 8, as you've noted.

>
> Exactly what was requested in this thread.
>
> Windows Phone did not get the full version in 8.0.
>
> People that has counted say that WP 8 WinRT has
> 2800/11000 of what Win8 WinRT has (measured in
> public members of the classes).
>
> MS has also stated that they will increase that in 8.1
> (already released for Win, soon to be released for WP)
> and further increase it in 9.

They've also produced a 4-6 hour video course that:
 >>
After this presentation, you should have a good
understanding of:
Major similarities and differences between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8
How to build apps for both Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 with maximum
code reuse
This presentation does not cover:
How to write a Windows Phone 8 app
How to write a Windows 8 app
A way to write apps that automatically run on both platforms (not possible)
<<

>
> But some classes may never be in WP. I am skeptical about
> namespaces like:
> * Windows.Devices.Enumeration.Pnp
> * Windows.Devices.HumanInterfaceDevice
> * Windows.Graphics.Printing
>
> Arne
>
>
>

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#27370

On 01/20/2014 08:16 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> But some classes may never be in WP. I am skeptical about
>> namespaces like:
>> * Windows.Devices.Enumeration.Pnp
>> * Windows.Devices.HumanInterfaceDevice
>> * Windows.Graphics.Printing
The other day a clerk at the Verizon store
checked checked me out completely on his handheld device.
Credit card, printed receipt, the whole nine yards.

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#27371

On 1/20/2014 8:16 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
> On 01/20/2014 07:43 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 1/20/2014 6:30 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>> On 01/20/2014 03:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 1/19/2014 8:04 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:55 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>>>>>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>>>>>  From the presentation:
>>>>> Platform-specific Features
>>>>> Similar features with different APIs and implementations
>>>>> Do not try to reuse code for these features
>>>>> Some examples:
>>>>> Application lifecycle (PLM)
>>>>> Background processing
>>>>> Tiles and toast notifications
>>>>> Image/video capture
>>>>> System services
>>>>> App bar
>>>>> Networking differences
>>>>
>>>> I did not watch it.
>>>
>>> Me neither.
>>> I downloaded the slides for the first part of the presentation.
>>> Then I would have been required to register before any more access. :(
>>>
>>>> But "Do not try to reuse code for these features" sounds like
>>>> "the API is the same but you should do things differently".
>>>
>>> Actually, the point was that these APIs are different and here
>>> is what you can do to maximize code reuse.
>>>
>>> One of the slides promises:
>>> <quote>
>>> We are on the path to
>>> Windows and Windows Phone
>>> convergence
>>> </quote>
>>
>> "these APIs are different" is not a very technical description. It
>> is even close to me misleading.
>
> I guess short of registering for the course and watching 4-6 hours
> of video you could download the first section of slides, as I've done.
>>
>> MS invented a new API to be shared between Windows 8 and
>> Windows Phone 8.
>
> MS has "invented" a lot of stuff.

Yes.

But wouldn't it make more sense to criticize them for not doing
something if they did not do it?

Arne

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#27372

On 01/20/2014 08:43 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/20/2014 8:16 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> On 01/20/2014 07:43 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2014 6:30 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>> On 01/20/2014 03:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 1/19/2014 8:04 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:55 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>> ????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>>>>>>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>  From the presentation:
>>>>>> Platform-specific Features
>>>>>> Similar features with different APIs and implementations
>>>>>> Do not try to reuse code for these features
>>>>>> Some examples:
>>>>>> Application lifecycle (PLM)
>>>>>> Background processing
>>>>>> Tiles and toast notifications
>>>>>> Image/video capture
>>>>>> System services
>>>>>> App bar
>>>>>> Networking differences
>>>>>
>>>>> I did not watch it.
>>>>
>>>> Me neither.
>>>> I downloaded the slides for the first part of the presentation.
>>>> Then I would have been required to register before any more access. :(
>>>>
>>>>> But "Do not try to reuse code for these features" sounds like
>>>>> "the API is the same but you should do things differently".
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the point was that these APIs are different and here
>>>> is what you can do to maximize code reuse.
>>>>
>>>> One of the slides promises:
>>>> <quote>
>>>> We are on the path to
>>>> Windows and Windows Phone
>>>> convergence
>>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> "these APIs are different" is not a very technical description. It
>>> is even close to me misleading.
>>
>> I guess short of registering for the course and watching 4-6 hours
>> of video you could download the first section of slides, as I've done.
>>>
>>> MS invented a new API to be shared between Windows 8 and
>>> Windows Phone 8.

You've snipped my comment.

They've also produced a 4-6 hour video course that:
 >>
After this presentation, you should have a good
understanding of:
Major similarities and differences between Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8
How to build apps for both Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 with maximum
code reuse
This presentation does not cover:
How to write a Windows Phone 8 app
How to write a Windows 8 app
A way to write apps that automatically run on both platforms (not possible)
<<


>>
>> MS has "invented" a lot of stuff.
>
> Yes.
>
> But wouldn't it make more sense to criticize them for not doing
> something if they did not do it?
>
Huh? Now's my turn for the ????

*I'm* not criticizing anyone.
I'm pointing to Microsoft's own course on current
best practices in code reuse between w8 & wp8.

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#27363

On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:55:06 -0500, Jeff Higgins wrote:

> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> 
>> ????
> 
> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-
windows-phone-8-app-development>.

I hadn't seen that, but had read about the incompatible Win8 APIs in an 
article in The Register.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#27364

On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:55:06 -0500, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> ????
>>
>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-
> windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>
> I hadn't seen that, but had read about the incompatible Win8 APIs in an
> article in The Register.

Just because something is written on the internet, then it is
not necessarily true.

Microsoft actually publishes documentation where it is clearly
indicated what is supported on what platforms.

Speculation like "There's absolutely no excuse for file system APIs to
differ" based on a story on a web site, when the documentation clearly
states that a number of classes for file system access actually are
supported on both Win8 and WinPC8.

Arne

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#27373

On 20/01/14 22:10, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:55:06 -0500, Jeff Higgins wrote:
>>> On 01/19/2014 07:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>
>>>> ????
>>>
>>> I suspect Martin Gregorie means this:
>>> <http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/windows-8-and-
>> windows-phone-8-app-development>.
>>
>> I hadn't seen that, but had read about the incompatible Win8 APIs in an
>> article in The Register.
>
> Just because something is written on the internet, then it is
> not necessarily true.

You're kidding, I never knew that, well you really do learn something 
new every day on 'the internet' don't you?

Sheesh


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer,
treacherous feline and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#27374

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>
>> I hadn't seen that, but had read about the incompatible Win8 APIs in an
>> article in The Register.
> 
> Just because something is written on the internet, then it is
> not necessarily true.

Despite its often bloke-y tone, The Register _is_ an actual journalistic
publication and one that _does_ have specific knowledge of IT and the
IT industry. I'd say they're a fairly reliable source in this field
(less so on climate change which for some reason appears to be a
favorite bugbear of theirs), and I wouldn't dismiss a reference to
them as "merely something written on the Internet." 
 
-- 
Leif Roar Moldskred

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#27375

On 21/01/14 10:03, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>
>>> I hadn't seen that, but had read about the incompatible Win8 APIs in an
>>> article in The Register.
>>
>> Just because something is written on the internet, then it is
>> not necessarily true.
>
> Despite its often bloke-y tone, The Register _is_ an actual journalistic
> publication and one that _does_ have specific knowledge of IT and the
> IT industry. I'd say they're a fairly reliable source in this field
> (less so on climate change which for some reason appears to be a
> favorite bugbear of theirs), and I wouldn't dismiss a reference to
> them as "merely something written on the Internet."

That's a fair assessment, I've always found The Register (.co.uk) 
entertaining and informative. They don't *appear* to have any particular 
axe to grind.

Having said that I can't really comment on their attitude to 'climate 
change' as I make a point of avoiding the often hysterical rhetoric 
employed by both sides of the argument.

My view? anyone who thinks we can continue to exploit the limited 
resources of our planet indefinitely is obviously one brick short of a 
full load.


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer,
treacherous feline and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#27379

On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 11:53:27 +0000, lipska the kat wrote:

> On 21/01/14 10:03, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 1/20/2014 4:41 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hadn't seen that, but had read about the incompatible Win8 APIs in
>>>> an article in The Register.
>>>
>>> Just because something is written on the internet, then it is not
>>> necessarily true.
>>
>> Despite its often bloke-y tone, The Register _is_ an actual
>> journalistic publication and one that _does_ have specific knowledge of
>> IT and the IT industry. I'd say they're a fairly reliable source in
>> this field (less so on climate change which for some reason appears to
>> be a favorite bugbear of theirs), and I wouldn't dismiss a reference to
>> them as "merely something written on the Internet."
> 
> That's a fair assessment, I've always found The Register (.co.uk)
> entertaining and informative. They don't *appear* to have any particular
> axe to grind.
> 
> Having said that I can't really comment on their attitude to 'climate
> change' as I make a point of avoiding the often hysterical rhetoric
> employed by both sides of the argument.
> 
> My view? anyone who thinks we can continue to exploit the limited
> resources of our planet indefinitely is obviously one brick short of a
> full load.
>
Agreed, and its really only one of their writers, Lewis Page, who is less 
than balanced on this subject. 


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#27378

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 17:10:01 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> Just because something is written on the internet, then it is not
> necessarily true.
>
True, but The Register has a pretty good record for accuracy in its IT 
and science articles. These days its more accurate and often gives more 
technical detail than New Scientist can manage.
 
> Speculation like "There's absolutely no excuse for file system APIs to
> differ" based on a story on a web site, when the documentation clearly
> states that a number of classes for file system access actually are
> supported on both Win8 and WinPC8.
>
That's not speculation. Thats me saying that its inexcusable if it 
happens because there is so much prior art where this is done correctly 
by MS and others.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#27362

On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:45:53 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 1/19/2014 6:44 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:05:26 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> Isn't that exactly what MS did with WinRT?
>>>
>> Thats what they *said* they did, but apparently what they said and what
>> they did are not the same.
>>
>> Its not impossible: its only a matter of providing the same[*] API in
>> an ARM box as is already implemented in an X86 box. Proof that this is
>> quite possible is given by the seamless port of Debian Linux and the
>> GNU C compiler toolset to the RaspberryPi (ARM) from the PC (X86). I
>> know, because I've done it with both my own and some 3rd party
>> packages, that you can use cvs to checkout a set of sources and
>> makefiles from a PC running Linux to an RPi running Raspbian (the
>> Debian port) and compile it without changing anything that was checked
>> out. If the tiny Raspberry Pi Foundation can make this work, than
>> Microsoft certainly should be able to do the same.
>>
>> [*] 'same' as in functionally identical interfaces after compiling them
>> on any of the target hardware.
>>
>>> But I am not sure that it matters so much. Any attempt to use the same
>>> UI on a phone and a PC will fail miserable.
>>>
>> Why do you say that? There's absolutely no excuse for file system APIs
>> to differ
> 
> ????
> 
> Isn't that what Windows.Storage.Streams.FileInputStream,
> Windows.Storage.Streams.FileOutputStream and the rest provide?
> 
>>     If your OS exposes a set of, say, APIs to manage a graphical
>> display, that should work on all hardware regardless of whether the
>> code implementing the system side of the API is the same on all
>> hardware or not. In fact I'd expect the system code to differ in order
>> to do something sensible with the different screen sizes, pixel size
>> and colour palettes supported by target hardware and to hide
>> differences between a single-touch screen and a mouse. Again, this is
>> nothing new. the X system works perfectly well on the RPi and can
>> easily handle different screen sizes and resolutions. I can easily run
>> code written for a WinCE-based PNA on a Windows box after its been
>> recompiled. Actually its running on a remote Linux box under Wine and
>> using my Linux laptop's display: the window it presents on the laptop
>> is a lot bigger than the PNA's screen, but it has the same aspect ratio
>> and much better resolution and, given that mouse clicks and drags and a
>> keyboard are used instead of the single touch PNA screen with a
>> graphical keyboard, inputs  works exactly the same too.
> 
> ????
> 
> The menus of a modern PC app is useless on a phone.
>
Sure - I'm not saying they should be the same, only that I don't see any 
reason why a program shouldn't use the same API to display menus and 
accept input from them regardless of how the OS chooses to display the 
menus. After all, a program that is useful on a desktop, tablet or phone 
will need to display the same menus and accept the same inputs from them 
regardless of which device its running on. Similar arguments apply to all 
the other elements of a graphical interface.

Now that the idea of letting a desktop graphical program work with more 
than one window has virtually disappeared (apart from one or two 
exceptions like the GIMP) it should be even easier to port such an 
application provided only that the API remains the same, its window is 
allowed to occupy the whole of a small screen and that graphical elements 
are allowed to overlay each other on the smallest screens, i.e. while a 
menu may be a top bar with drop-down submenus on a desktop or tablet, on 
a phone the menu and submenus would overlay each other exactly as they do 
at present on some phones. The application does not need to know how the 
graphical screen manager has arranged them on screen: thats can be taken 
care of by the OS.

  
> That is not something I am making up.
> 
Agreed.

> Try comparing how web browsers look on PC and phone.
>
See above.



-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#27365

On 1/20/2014 4:39 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:45:53 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 1/19/2014 6:44 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>      If your OS exposes a set of, say, APIs to manage a graphical
>>> display, that should work on all hardware regardless of whether the
>>> code implementing the system side of the API is the same on all
>>> hardware or not. In fact I'd expect the system code to differ in order
>>> to do something sensible with the different screen sizes, pixel size
>>> and colour palettes supported by target hardware and to hide
>>> differences between a single-touch screen and a mouse. Again, this is
>>> nothing new. the X system works perfectly well on the RPi and can
>>> easily handle different screen sizes and resolutions. I can easily run
>>> code written for a WinCE-based PNA on a Windows box after its been
>>> recompiled. Actually its running on a remote Linux box under Wine and
>>> using my Linux laptop's display: the window it presents on the laptop
>>> is a lot bigger than the PNA's screen, but it has the same aspect ratio
>>> and much better resolution and, given that mouse clicks and drags and a
>>> keyboard are used instead of the single touch PNA screen with a
>>> graphical keyboard, inputs  works exactly the same too.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> The menus of a modern PC app is useless on a phone.
>>
> Sure - I'm not saying they should be the same, only that I don't see any
> reason why a program shouldn't use the same API to display menus and
> accept input from them regardless of how the OS chooses to display the
> menus. After all, a program that is useful on a desktop, tablet or phone
> will need to display the same menus and accept the same inputs from them
> regardless of which device its running on. Similar arguments apply to all
> the other elements of a graphical interface.

But applications does not have the same menus on PC and phone. The
phone version is usually a lot simpler.

Arne

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#27380

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 17:21:24 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 1/20/2014 4:39 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:45:53 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 1/19/2014 6:44 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>      If your OS exposes a set of, say, APIs to manage a graphical
>>>> display, that should work on all hardware regardless of whether the
>>>> code implementing the system side of the API is the same on all
>>>> hardware or not. In fact I'd expect the system code to differ in
>>>> order to do something sensible with the different screen sizes, pixel
>>>> size and colour palettes supported by target hardware and to hide
>>>> differences between a single-touch screen and a mouse. Again, this is
>>>> nothing new. the X system works perfectly well on the RPi and can
>>>> easily handle different screen sizes and resolutions. I can easily
>>>> run code written for a WinCE-based PNA on a Windows box after its
>>>> been recompiled. Actually its running on a remote Linux box under
>>>> Wine and using my Linux laptop's display: the window it presents on
>>>> the laptop is a lot bigger than the PNA's screen, but it has the same
>>>> aspect ratio and much better resolution and, given that mouse clicks
>>>> and drags and a keyboard are used instead of the single touch PNA
>>>> screen with a graphical keyboard, inputs  works exactly the same too.
>>>
>>> ????
>>>
>>> The menus of a modern PC app is useless on a phone.
>>>
>> Sure - I'm not saying they should be the same, only that I don't see
>> any reason why a program shouldn't use the same API to display menus
>> and accept input from them regardless of how the OS chooses to display
>> the menus. After all, a program that is useful on a desktop, tablet or
>> phone will need to display the same menus and accept the same inputs
>> from them regardless of which device its running on. Similar arguments
>> apply to all the other elements of a graphical interface.
> 
> But applications does not have the same menus on PC and phone. The phone
> version is usually a lot simpler.
> 
I'd say that depends on the program and what it is expected to do. 

And, BTW, we're almost there in a lot of respects: Swing's layout 
managers and Xserver manage most of what's needed here, apart from their 
use of pixel counts to set the size of displayed objects. I accept that 
this is most unlikely to change but would like to point out that if the 
sizes of said displayed objects were given in fractions of the screen or 
containing window size, then programs using them would be even more 
portable than they are at present.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#27355

On 01/16/2014 07:35 AM, Saxo wrote:

>  From what I've written so far you might be able to see where the disorientation / confusion originates from ... My mind says I should do some C proramming where there is the best chance to do some work with it at some company one day. But my heard tells me to do some more fancy stuff like Go or D.

Thanks. Just got my first Go workspace set up. The go tool seems to work 
as advertised. Now to tackle the for loop.

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