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Primitive return value after exception in method

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  Primitive return value after exception in method Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-01 14:30 +0800
    Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-09-01 09:23 +0200
      Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-01 15:38 +0800
      Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-09-01 11:49 -0400
        Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-09-01 19:05 +0200
          Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-09-02 08:34 +0200
            Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-09-02 22:18 -0400
            Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 09:12 +0100
              Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-08 17:16 +0800
                Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 12:39 +0100
                  Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-08 19:49 +0800
                    Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 12:59 +0100
                      Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-08 20:13 +0800
                        Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 13:15 +0100
                          Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Richard Maher <maher_rjSPAMLESS@hotmail.com> - 2013-09-08 20:20 +0800
                            Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 13:27 +0100
              Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-09-08 12:33 +0200
                Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 12:41 +0100
                  Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:15 +0200
                    Re: Primitive return value after exception in method lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-09-08 13:24 +0100
    Re: Primitive return value after exception in method Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2013-09-01 13:57 -0700

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#25187 — Primitive return value after exception in method

Hi,

I know this is a case of suck-it-and see but I'd like a reference to the 
architectural performance description please. (I'm pretty bad at seeding 
Google)

if: -

int fred = -1;
try {
	fred = someMethod(String blah);
} catch (e) {};

Now before someMethod raised an exception it had set the designated and 
referenced RETURN value to say 1, what will the value of fred be?

Cheers Richard Maher

PS. Sorry again for the Java 101 question but too many beers for the 
SCJP and for some reason Google does not have an obvious answer.

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#25188

On 01.09.13 08.30, Richard Maher wrote:
> int fred = -1;
> try {
> fred = someMethod(String blah);

This is a syntax error.

   fred = someMethod("blah");

> } catch (e) {};
>
> Now before someMethod raised an exception it had set the designated and
> referenced RETURN value to say 1, what will the value of fred be?

If someMethod throws an exception it never returns normally and so fred 
never gets assigned anything else but it's initial value -1.

Java does not pass any arguments or return values by reference. Although 
the passed values might be references itself. But this makes no 
difference here. Fred is never changed by the call to someMethod if 
someMethod throws, regardless of its return type.

The story changes only if you pass a reference type to someMethod and 
someMethod make changes to this instance before the exception is thrown.


Marcel

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#25189

On 9/1/2013 3:23 PM, Marcel Müller wrote:
> The answer

Thank-you

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#25196

On 9/1/2013 3:23 AM, Marcel Müller wrote:
> On 01.09.13 08.30, Richard Maher wrote:
>> int fred = -1;
>> try {
>> fred = someMethod(String blah);
>
> This is a syntax error.
>
>    fred = someMethod("blah");

I think Richard knows that but just messed up when typing in the
question.

>> } catch (e) {};
>>
>> Now before someMethod raised an exception it had set the designated and
>> referenced RETURN value to say 1, what will the value of fred be?
>
> If someMethod throws an exception it never returns normally and so fred
> never gets assigned anything else but it's initial value -1.
>
> Java does not pass any arguments or return values by reference. Although
> the passed values might be references itself. But this makes no
> difference here. Fred is never changed by the call to someMethod if
> someMethod throws, regardless of its return type.

I don't even think that this (for the return value) is particular
Java specific.

It must be somewhere between "by definition" and "in practice always"
that variable = functioncall only assigns to variable after
functioncall is completed without exception for imperative
languages.

Arne

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#25197

On 01.09.13 17.49, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Java does not pass any arguments or return values by reference. Although
>> the passed values might be references itself. But this makes no
>> difference here. Fred is never changed by the call to someMethod if
>> someMethod throws, regardless of its return type.
>
> I don't even think that this (for the return value) is particular
> Java specific.

Well, it is not only Java specific, of course. But there are languages 
that can return values in case of exceptions. E.g. ABAP comes into my mind.


Marcel

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#25208

On 01.09.2013 19:05, Marcel Müller wrote:
> On 01.09.13 17.49, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> Java does not pass any arguments or return values by reference. Although
>>> the passed values might be references itself. But this makes no
>>> difference here. Fred is never changed by the call to someMethod if
>>> someMethod throws, regardless of its return type.
>>
>> I don't even think that this (for the return value) is particular
>> Java specific.
>
> Well, it is not only Java specific, of course. But there are languages
> that can return values in case of exceptions. E.g. ABAP comes into my mind.

One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in Java - 
albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object 
reference into the method and modify the state of that object before you 
throw the exception.

Kind regards

	robert

-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

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#25216

On 9/2/2013 2:34 AM, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 01.09.2013 19:05, Marcel Müller wrote:
>> On 01.09.13 17.49, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Java does not pass any arguments or return values by reference.
>>>> Although
>>>> the passed values might be references itself. But this makes no
>>>> difference here. Fred is never changed by the call to someMethod if
>>>> someMethod throws, regardless of its return type.
>>>
>>> I don't even think that this (for the return value) is particular
>>> Java specific.
>>
>> Well, it is not only Java specific, of course. But there are languages
>> that can return values in case of exceptions. E.g. ABAP comes into my
>> mind.
>
> One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in Java -
> albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object
> reference into the method and modify the state of that object before you
> throw the exception.

Including and int array with one element.

Arne

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#25242

On 02/09/13 07:34, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 01.09.2013 19:05, Marcel Müller wrote:
>> On 01.09.13 17.49, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Java does not pass any arguments or return values by reference.
>>>> Although
>>>> the passed values might be references itself. But this makes no
>>>> difference here. Fred is never changed by the call to someMethod if
>>>> someMethod throws, regardless of its return type.
>>>
>>> I don't even think that this (for the return value) is particular
>>> Java specific.
>>
>> Well, it is not only Java specific, of course. But there are languages
>> that can return values in case of exceptions. E.g. ABAP comes into my
>> mind.
>
> One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in Java -
> albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object
> reference into the method and modify the state of that object before you
> throw the exception.
>
> Kind regards
>
>      robert

I've just read this thread and frankly I'm surprised that apparently 
experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of thing 
is even attempted. Here's my thinking.

Cohesion is a fundamental aspect of good 'OO' design.
Simply put this means that a class should implement one well defined 
fragment of a system and nothing else.

It seems to follow then that a method of such a class should be equally 
cohesive which means that it should do one small part of the whole.

Given this situation and if we accept that an exception is used to 
indicate to the caller that an exceptional situation has occurred then 
why in the name of sanity would anyone want to rely in any way on a 
value 'returned' from a method that has thrown an exception?

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25243

On 9/8/2013 4:12 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
n
> why in the name of sanity would anyone want to rely in any way on a
> value 'returned' from a method that has thrown an exception?

I don't recall ANYONE except YOU introducing the "rely" terminology.

Personally I'm chasing down a few bugs and got useful advice from 
technically competent people like Patricia that ruled out some of the 
more crazy options I was considering.
>
> lipska
>

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#25247

On 08/09/13 10:16, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 9/8/2013 4:12 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
> n
>> why in the name of sanity would anyone want to rely in any way on a
>> value 'returned' from a method that has thrown an exception?
>
> I don't recall ANYONE except YOU introducing the "rely" terminology.

Why else would you care what the return value from a method that throws 
an exception is. If you are not interested in it then why bother to 
concern yourself with it in the first place, it's pretty simple really.

If you want to see some value the use a debug statement or wrap it in 
the exception.

Examining anything other than the exception in an exceptional situation 
doesn't compute.

> Personally I'm chasing down a few bugs and got useful advice from
> technically competent people like Patricia that ruled out some of the
> more crazy options I was considering.

How interesting.


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25250

On 9/8/2013 7:39 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 08/09/13 10:16, Richard Maher wrote:
>> On 9/8/2013 4:12 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> n
>>> why in the name of sanity would anyone want to rely in any way on a
>>> value 'returned' from a method that has thrown an exception?
>>
>> I don't recall ANYONE except YOU introducing the "rely" terminology.
>
> Why else would you care what the return value from a method that throws
> an exception is. If you are not interested in it then why bother to
> concern yourself with it in the first place, it's pretty simple really.
>

Why would anyone not think like you? Good Point.

> If you want to see some value the use a debug statement or wrap it in
> the exception.
>
> Examining anything other than the exception in an exceptional situation
> doesn't compute.
>
>> Personally I'm chasing down a few bugs and got useful advice from
>> technically competent people like Patricia that ruled out some of the
>> more crazy options I was considering.
>
> How interesting.

Dear lipska the pussy

Fuck off!

Yours Sincerely Richard Maher

Ps. How long would you like to go on dip-shit?

>
>

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#25251

On 08/09/13 12:49, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 9/8/2013 7:39 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 08/09/13 10:16, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2013 4:12 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> n
>>>> why in the name of sanity would anyone want to rely in any way on a
>>>> value 'returned' from a method that has thrown an exception?
>>>
>>> I don't recall ANYONE except YOU introducing the "rely" terminology.
>>
>> Why else would you care what the return value from a method that throws
>> an exception is. If you are not interested in it then why bother to
>> concern yourself with it in the first place, it's pretty simple really.
>>
>
> Why would anyone not think like you? Good Point.
>
>> If you want to see some value the use a debug statement or wrap it in
>> the exception.
>>
>> Examining anything other than the exception in an exceptional situation
>> doesn't compute.
>>
>>> Personally I'm chasing down a few bugs and got useful advice from
>>> technically competent people like Patricia that ruled out some of the
>>> more crazy options I was considering.
>>
>> How interesting.
>
> Dear lipska the pussy
>
> Fuck off!
>
> Yours Sincerely Richard Maher
>
> Ps. How long would you like to go on dip-shit?

You have no idea you wanker.

However, in deference to other readers of this group I suggest we take 
this offline. Or are you a coward as well as a loud mouth prick.


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25252

On 9/8/2013 7:59 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> Ps. How long would you like to go on dip-shit?
>
> You have no idea you wanker.
>
> However, in deference to other readers of this group I suggest we take
> this offline. Or are you a coward as well as a loud mouth prick.
>
>
Sorry? If you're going to call me out can I at least have the Lat:Lng to 
the bike sheds? And what does your Mother look like?

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#25253

On 08/09/13 13:13, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 9/8/2013 7:59 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> Ps. How long would you like to go on dip-shit?
>>
>> You have no idea you wanker.
>>
>> However, in deference to other readers of this group I suggest we take
>> this offline. Or are you a coward as well as a loud mouth prick.
>>
>>
> Sorry? If you're going to call me out can I at least have the Lat:Lng to
> the bike sheds? And what does your Mother look like?

You can contact me at mahertheprick@gmail.com

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25255

On 9/8/2013 8:15 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 08/09/13 13:13, Richard Maher wrote:
>> On 9/8/2013 7:59 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> Ps. How long would you like to go on dip-shit?
>>>
>>> You have no idea you wanker.
>>>
>>> However, in deference to other readers of this group I suggest we take
>>> this offline. Or are you a coward as well as a loud mouth prick.
>>>
>>>
>> Sorry? If you're going to call me out can I at least have the Lat:Lng to
>> the bike sheds? And what does your Mother look like?
>
> You can contact me at mahertheprick@gmail.com
>

Lipska the PUSSY alright! Just as I thought.

Good luck with your mate(s) tomorrow.

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#25257

On 08/09/13 13:20, Richard Maher wrote:
> On 9/8/2013 8:15 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 08/09/13 13:13, Richard Maher wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2013 7:59 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>> Ps. How long would you like to go on dip-shit?
>>>>
>>>> You have no idea you wanker.
>>>>
>>>> However, in deference to other readers of this group I suggest we take
>>>> this offline. Or are you a coward as well as a loud mouth prick.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sorry? If you're going to call me out can I at least have the Lat:Lng to
>>> the bike sheds? And what does your Mother look like?
>>
>> You can contact me at mahertheprick@gmail.com
>>
>
> Lipska the PUSSY alright! Just as I thought.
>
> Good luck with your mate(s) tomorrow.

Well, that's a no then unsurprisingly.

I'll keep the email address just in case you change your mind pansy boy.

Need a reminder?

mahertheprick@gmail.com

I kid you not, it's a real address



-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25246

On 08.09.2013 10:12, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 02/09/13 07:34, Robert Klemme wrote:

>> One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in Java -
>> albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object
>> reference into the method and modify the state of that object before you
>> throw the exception.

> I've just read this thread and frankly I'm surprised that apparently
> experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of thing
> is even attempted.

Where do you see that?

Cheers

	robert

-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

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#25248

On 08/09/13 11:33, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 08.09.2013 10:12, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 02/09/13 07:34, Robert Klemme wrote:
>
>>> One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in Java -
>>> albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object
>>> reference into the method and modify the state of that object before you
>>> throw the exception.
>
>> I've just read this thread and frankly I'm surprised that apparently
>> experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of thing
>> is even attempted.
>
> Where do you see that?

Where do I see what?

Someone asked a question, I gave my opinion ... I don't see the problem.

Where do I see what?


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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#25254

On 08.09.2013 13:41, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 08/09/13 11:33, Robert Klemme wrote:
>> On 08.09.2013 10:12, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 02/09/13 07:34, Robert Klemme wrote:
>>
>>>> One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in Java -
>>>> albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object
>>>> reference into the method and modify the state of that object before
>>>> you
>>>> throw the exception.
>>
>>> I've just read this thread and frankly I'm surprised that apparently
>>> experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of thing
>>> is even attempted.
>>
>> Where do you see that?
>
> Where do I see what?

That "experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of 
thing is even attempted".

We're discussing language behavior in this thread.  I do not see that 
someone is seriously suggesting to actually do that and return values 
even in case of an exception.  That's why I asked.

	robert


-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

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#25256

On 08/09/13 13:15, Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 08.09.2013 13:41, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 08/09/13 11:33, Robert Klemme wrote:
>>> On 08.09.2013 10:12, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> On 02/09/13 07:34, Robert Klemme wrote:
>>>
>>>>> One can pass values back to the caller in this situation even in
>>>>> Java -
>>>>> albeit not via return value.  All you need to do is to pass an object
>>>>> reference into the method and modify the state of that object before
>>>>> you
>>>>> throw the exception.
>>>
>>>> I've just read this thread and frankly I'm surprised that apparently
>>>> experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of
>>>> thing
>>>> is even attempted.
>>>
>>> Where do you see that?
>>
>> Where do I see what?
>
> That "experienced developers are apparently suggesting that this sort of
> thing is even attempted".
>
> We're discussing language behavior in this thread.  I do not see that
> someone is seriously suggesting to actually do that and return values
> even in case of an exception.  That's why I asked.

How is this 'language behavior'?

... Anyway, people *have* been suggesting ways of setting a value via a 
reference that can later (presumably) be inspected (presumably to infer 
something) *after* an exception has occurred.

Does nothing about this activity seem unsafe to you?

lipska


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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