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Timezones and versions of Java

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  Timezones and versions of Java loial <jldunn2000@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 07:38 -0700
    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-05-23 15:45 +0100
      Re: Timezones and versions of Java loial <jldunn2000@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 08:12 -0700
    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-05-23 16:26 +0100
    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-23 11:58 -0400
    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-24 11:50 +1200
      Re: Timezones and versions of Java Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-24 02:16 +0200
        Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-24 14:40 +1200
          Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lothar Kimmeringer <news200709@kimmeringer.de> - 2011-05-24 09:12 +0200
            Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-24 20:25 +1200
              Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-24 08:14 -0400
                Re: Timezones and versions of Java bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> - 2011-05-25 09:55 +0100
              Re: Timezones and versions of Java Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-05-24 12:32 +0000
                Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-25 12:04 +1200
                  Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-24 21:57 -0400
                  Re: Timezones and versions of Java Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscape.net> - 2011-05-25 09:39 +0300
                    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-25 19:49 +1200
                      Re: Timezones and versions of Java Nigel Wade <nmw-news@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2011-05-25 09:35 +0100
                      Re: Timezones and versions of Java Stanimir Stamenkov <s7an10@netscape.net> - 2011-05-25 14:55 +0300
                        Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-27 13:09 +1200
                          Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-26 22:11 -0400
                      Re: Timezones and versions of Java Steve Sobol <sjsobol@JustThe.net> - 2011-05-25 09:35 -0700
                        Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-26 11:34 +1200
                          Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-25 21:50 -0400
                    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-25 19:50 +1200
              Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lothar Kimmeringer <news200709@kimmeringer.de> - 2011-05-24 17:26 +0200
                Re: Timezones and versions of Java Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> - 2011-05-25 12:07 +1200
    Re: Timezones and versions of Java Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-24 19:34 -0700

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#4627

On 05/26/2011 09:09 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message<iriqn9$tt8$1@dont-email.me>, Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:
>
>> Wed, 25 May 2011 19:49:18 +1200, /Lawrence D'Oliveiro/:
>>
>>> In message<iri87l$no8$1@dont-email.me>, Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:
>>>
>>>> Java has a TZupdater (Timezone Updater) tool which takes care:
>>>
>>> So the answer is “no”: you need to download, install and run a separate
>>> tool to apply a patch to fix it up.
>>>
>>> How many people are going to bother with this?
>>
>> People who care or need it, people maintaining servers.
>
> Production servers? Are you really going to roll out a code patch willy-
> nilly across all your production systems?

Where'd you get "willy-nilly"?  No one said that.  You don't get to add that 
straw man and then treat it like Stanimir said it, Lawrence!  Shame on you, 
Lawrence!

> The problem is, why does Java need a CODE patch to apply a DATA update? The
> tzdata patch I referenced is just a data patch, no changes to any code at
> all. That’s why folks like Debian feel safe classifying such updates as
> “volatile”, being immediately applicable even to production systems running
> “stable” installations.

Still pulling your "No True Scotsman" bullshit, Lawrence.

First you said no one but Java needs a patch.  Then it was shown that, for 
example, Linux needs a patch.  Then you started making up stuff about the Java 
patch.  And who says the Java patch is a code patch?  Obviously it patches 
something in the bootstrap JAR world, but is it code?  Have you checked?

It's been shown time and again that your argument here is full of shit, so you 
keep changing the terms of your argument.  That's classic "No True Scotsman" 
baloney, there, Lawrence, old boy.

So how about you stop that crap?  I've seen you make valid, well-reasoned 
points before, so how about you make a habit of it, hm, Lawrence, old bean?

That's a good boy.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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#4577

In article <iric9v$l95$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro says...

> So the answer is ?no?: you need to download, install and run a separate tool 
> to apply a patch to fix it up.

Funny. At times I've had to do EXACTLYY THE SAME THING to update TZ data 
in the operating system.

Windows and Linux, both.
 
> How many people are going to bother with this?

People who want their clock to be correct.


-- 
Steve Sobol - Programming/WebDev/IT Support
sjsobol@JustThe.net

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#4584

In message <MPG.2846cfc422e5e705989760@news.justthe.net>, Steve Sobol wrote:

> In article <iric9v$l95$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro says...
> 
>> So the answer is “no”: you need to download, install and run a separate
>> tool to apply a patch to fix it up.
> 
> Funny. At times I've had to do EXACTLYY THE SAME THING to update TZ data
> in the operating system.

Compare the difference: this
<http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/3702> versus this
<http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/tzupdater/1.3.38/tzupdater-1_3_38-2011e.zip>

The first one is a diff. What does it do? Why, just look at the diff itself,
and you can see what it does. No hidden surprises there; it’s not even code,
it’s just data, i.e. timezone rules. How to apply it? Just use patch(1), a
standard utility available on all self-respecting open-source-based systems.

What’s the second one? It’s a .jar file with a readme. What does it do?
Don’t know for sure, actually. The readme says one thing, but without source
code to refer to, how can you be sure?

How do you roll out that Oracle patch? You have to double-click it or
something on every single system where you want to install it. Do you have
to reboot or something afterwards? To be safe, probably yes.

How do you roll out the tzdata patch? That’s easy: you can run a bulk SSH
loop across all your systems.

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#4589

On 05/25/2011 07:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In message<MPG.2846cfc422e5e705989760@news.justthe.net>, Steve Sobol wrote:
>
>> In article<iric9v$l95$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro says...
>>
>>> So the answer is “no”: you need to download, install and run a separate
>>> tool to apply a patch to fix it up.
>>
>> Funny. At times I've had to do EXACTLYY THE SAME THING to update TZ data
>> in the operating system.
>
> Compare the difference: this
> <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/3702>  versus this
> <http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/tzupdater/1.3.38/tzupdater-1_3_38-2011e.zip>
>
> The first one is a diff. What does it do? Why, just look at the diff itself,
> and you can see what it does. No hidden surprises there; it’s not even code,
> it’s just data, i.e. timezone rules. How to apply it? Just use patch(1), a
> standard utility available on all self-respecting open-source-based systems.
>
> What’s the second one? It’s a .jar file with a readme. What does it do?
> Don’t know for sure, actually. The readme says one thing, but without source
> code to refer to, how can you be sure?
>
> How do you roll out that Oracle patch? You have to double-click it or
> something on every single system where you want to install it. Do you have
> to reboot or something afterwards? To be safe, probably yes.
>
> How do you roll out the tzdata patch? That’s easy: you can run a bulk SSH
> loop across all your systems.

"No true Scotsman", Lawrence.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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#4563

In message <iri87l$no8$1@dont-email.me>, Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

> Java has a TZupdater (Timezone Updater) tool which takes care:

Actually the link (bypassing the licence-agreement page) is here
<http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/tzupdater/1.3.38/tzupdater-1_3_38-2011e.zip>.

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#4538

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> In message <l0t0ynlpptf2$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
>> 
>> Because these files are part of the runtime-classes which are
>> Java and are therefor platform independent.
> 
> Is that like saying you can never take the plane from an airport in your 
> town, because other towns don’t have airports?

No, it's more like saying, that I prefer wearing my own watch even
if I reside in an area where you can see public clocks very often.


Regards, Lothar
-- 
Lothar Kimmeringer                E-Mail: spamfang@kimmeringer.de
               PGP-encrypted mails preferred (Key-ID: 0x8BC3CD81)

Always remember: The answer is forty-two, there can only be wrong
                 questions!

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#4553

In message <10v5xwjy2wwvr$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>> In message <l0t0ynlpptf2$.dlg@kimmeringer.de>, Lothar Kimmeringer wrote:
>>> 
>>> Because these files are part of the runtime-classes which are
>>> Java and are therefor platform independent.
>> 
>> Is that like saying you can never take the plane from an airport in your
>> town, because other towns don’t have airports?
> 
> No, it's more like saying, that I prefer wearing my own watch even
> if I reside in an area where you can see public clocks very often.

No, it’s more like saying you aren’t allowed to use the public clock, you 
must go by my watch.

Java isn’t giving you the choice of whether to be stupid or clever, it’s 
forcing you to always be stupid.

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#4559

On Mon, 23 May 2011 07:38:54 -0700 (PDT), loial <jldunn2000@gmail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>
>
>Do I need to do something different in Java 1.6?.

read the release notes for the two versions and those in between to
see the corrections made to timezone data.  Timezones are as goofy as
the spellings of female babies.  It is big job to keep track of all
the eccentricities.

The later version will be the more correct.
-- 
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
How long did it take after the car was invented before owners understood 
cars would not work unless you regularly changed the oil and the tires?
We have gone 33 years and still it is rare to uncover a user who 
understands computers don't work without regular backups.

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