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Do 4thers also replace 7bitQuoteChar by 24bits?

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  Do 4thers also replace 7bitQuoteChar by 24bits? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2016-06-26 07:17 +0000
    Re: Do 4thers also replace 7bitQuoteChar by 24bits? lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-06-26 02:21 -0700
    Re: Do 4thers also replace 7bitQuoteChar by 24bits? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-06-26 09:05 +0000
      Re: Do 4thers also replace 7bitQuoteChar by 24bits? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2016-07-19 02:25 -0400

#48530 — Do 4thers also replace 7bitQuoteChar by 24bits?

Yes, it may be nice to be able to write in Chinese and Arabic
instead of just ASCII. But did we cancel "walking" when we got
the jet-plane.

What was insufficient about the single & double quote chars,
that needed them to be replaced by 3 bytes?

Investigating what was sent to show the 3 chars: "e"

# grep example /root/ORS.htm | hexdump -C | head -3 

00000000  49 6e 20 79 6f 75 72 20  65 78 61 6d 70 6c 65 20  
|In your example |
00000010  e2 80 9e 65 22 20 69 73  20 35 20 28 3d 20 e2 80  
|â..e" is 5 (= â.|
00000020  9e 31 30 31 e2 80 9c 20  69 6e 20 62 69 6e 61 72  
|.101â.. in binar|

   shows
e2 80 9e = "
65 = e
22 = "

So it's not even consistent. 
Or double-quote maps to multiple possibilities.

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#48532

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 7:17:16 PM UTC+12, Unknown wrote:
> e2 80 9e = "
> 65 = e
> 22 = "
> 
> So it's not even consistent. 
> Or double-quote maps to multiple possibilities.

You *do* realize that triple-byte character is not the same as the ASCII double-quote?

    ldo@theon:~> python3
    Python 3.5.1+ (default, Jun 10 2016, 09:03:40) 
    [GCC 5.4.0 20160603] on linux
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> b"\xe2\x80\x9e".decode()
    '„'
    >>> "%#04x" % ord(b"\xe2\x80\x9e".decode())
    '0x201e'
    >>> 
    ldo@theon:~> unicode 201e
    U+201E DOUBLE LOW-9 QUOTATION MARK
    UTF-8: e2 80 9e UTF-16BE: 201e Decimal: „ Octal: \020036
    „
    Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open)
    Unicode block: 2000..206F; General Punctuation
    Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)

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#48533

Unknown <dog@gmail.com> writes:
>Yes, it may be nice to be able to write in Chinese and Arabic
>instead of just ASCII. But did we cancel "walking" when we got
>the jet-plane.
>
>What was insufficient about the single & double quote chars,
>that needed them to be replaced by 3 bytes?
>
>Investigating what was sent to show the 3 chars: "e"
...
>   shows
>e2 80 9e = "
>65 = e
>22 = "
>
>So it's not even consistent. 
>Or double-quote maps to multiple possibilities.

That's a question about UTF-8, not about Forth.  But fortunately, I
can use Forth to answer it:

First, let's look what this character looks like:

s\" \xe2\x80\x9e" type

and as output I see a lower double-quote (like ",,", but as one glyph;
maybe I should have written "double-comma" instead of "lower
double-quote"), which is used in German for starting quotes.  For
ending quotes, German uses an (upper) double-quote, not the same
character.  My guess is that whoever wrote the text you looked at
normally writes in German or in another language that uses the same
convention.

Next let's look at what more we can find out about this character.  To
look it up, we need the Unicode code point number:

s\" \xe2\x80\x9e" drop xc@ hex.

(Hurray, sometimes the Xchar words are useful after all:-).

The output is 201e, and googling for it leads me to

http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2B201E

which tells me that the character name is "DOUBLE LOW-9 QUOTATION
MARK", contains additional info and points to other pages about this
character.

If you look at
http://www.utf8-chartable.de/unicode-utf8-table.pl?start=8192, you
also find opening and closing upper double-quotes (U+201C, U+201D),
and I often see these (I think; anyway, non-ASCII) quotes used in the
web instead of the universal ASCII double-quote.  I guess we are
seeing progress at work.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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#49226

On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 09:05:15 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
(Anton Ertl) wrote:

> That's a question about UTF-8, not about Forth.  But fortunately, I
> can use Forth to answer it: <snip>

> The [codepoint] is 201e, and googling for it leads me to
> 
> http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2B201E
> 
> which tells me that the character name is "DOUBLE LOW-9 QUOTATION
> MARK", contains additional info and points to other pages about this
> character.
> 
> If you look at
> http://www.utf8-chartable.de/unicode-utf8-table.pl?start=8192, you
> also find opening and closing upper double-quotes (U+201C, U+201D),
> and I often see these (I think; anyway, non-ASCII) quotes used in the
> web instead of the universal ASCII double-quote.  I guess we are
> seeing progress at work.
> 
I'd bet Windows or things designed for compatibility with Windows or
for compatibility with things compatible with Windows and so on.

Windows code page 1252, used by default and very widely for English
and 'Western European' Windows since at least XP, is _mostly_ the 
same as 'Latin-1' ISO-8859-1, except it assigns most of x80-9F as
additional graphics, including Unicode 2018-201A and 201C-201E. 
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows-1252

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