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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #37348 > unrolled thread
| Started by | JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-03-17 12:47 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-03-26 06:34 +0000 |
| Articles | 8 on this page of 68 — 17 participants |
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What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-17 12:47 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 22:29 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 10:59 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:04 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 11:19 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:39 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-03-18 08:05 -1000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 18:34 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:05 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-03-17 19:11 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-19 00:28 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:00 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 11:33 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-18 22:15 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 07:53 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-03-19 17:17 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:01 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 18:42 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-18 23:56 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-19 02:46 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:27 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 22:21 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:43 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-20 15:41 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-29 16:23 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 16:43 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-29 22:53 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 08:00 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-20 14:43 +0100
...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-23 15:26 +0100
Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-23 10:39 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-24 01:18 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-24 17:45 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 00:08 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 00:43 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 07:07 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 08:06 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 15:19 -0400
Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 12:39 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-25 20:42 +0100
Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 16:41 -0400
Re: ...Tiny targets hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-25 22:32 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-26 09:35 +0000
Re: ...Tiny targets Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-03-26 14:52 +0200
Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 16:12 -0400
Re: ...Tiny targets albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-26 13:00 +0000
Re: ...Tiny targets anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-03-26 11:58 +0000
Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:10 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:16 -0700
Re: ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-27 13:01 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 06:45 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:57 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:09 +0100
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:59 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-20 21:47 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-21 02:30 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-21 17:52 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-22 01:27 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:15 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:47 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-22 18:39 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 16:32 -0700
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:35 +0000
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 15:55 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-28 03:36 -0400
Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:34 +0000
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-22 13:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f272bf76-c044-4f4d-a231-14741b08ee22@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #37535 |
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 1:27:09 AM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote: > On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 12:52:52 AM UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > > I think that people who worry about the size of the word-set, are doomed to failure anyway. They believe that learning the language involves reading a reference manual and learning what each word does, and so they suppose that the fewer words they have to learn and the thinner the manual, the sooner they will finish. They are doomed! This is not how programming languages are learned! To learn how to program in a language, it is necessary to write programs in that language. It is best to start writing a program on day one, before you have learned hardly any of the words in the language. As you go, you will find that you need words to do something in your program, so you scan through the reference manual until you find something likely, and you use it. You get your program to work, and then you are happy because you have succeeded. Your program may be badly written though, so you rewrite it using your new knowledge and you do a better job. Write a lot of programs, and write increasingly difficult programs, and pretty soon it will become easy. Never "study" the language though --- this is boring and you will fall asleep --- even if you drink coffee to stay awake, you won't learn anything, and you won't be any closer to being capable of writing a program in the language than you were before you began studying. > A lot of wasted time here - for you to write and for all of us to read. > > What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth > - this was the question. The word BYE is all that you need! > Do you have anything to contribute - otherwise stay out of my thread. > I will do what I think necessary anyway and it is a lot of fun > - except for answering postings like this. > > If you know so well how and why it does not work - by definition you know the inverse, how it works .... When I responded, I thought you were a novice Forth programmer interested in learning Forth. Only later did I realize that you are Juergen Pintaske the salesman at MPE. It is a waste of time to teach a salesman a technical skill such as programming. Most likely, Stephen told you that you had to learn the basics of Forth programming so that you would be a better salesman (so that you would less often make a fool out of yourself in front of the customers with your blithering ignorance of the subject). So you complained: "I have to learn all these Forth words? There are so many! How could I ever memorize such a lengthy list?" So Stephen said: "Dry your tears! You don't have to learn all of ANS-Forth, just a beginner's subset." So the result is that you are now on C.L.F. asking what the minimum beginner's subset of ANS-Forth is that you need to learn. My prediction for you is that you will never write a computer program in your entire life. Instead, you will leap straight into "leading expert" status --- you will hang out on C.L.F. teaching beginners about PAD and so forth, and you will use your exulted "leading expert" status to denounce my novice-package, saying that it "sucks" and that it was "written by a novice," etc.. You will demand that every Forth-200x programmer kiss your ring, and if they refuse you will deny them status as being Forth programmers. You will surround yourself with sycophants named Alex. Essentially, you will become what Elizabeth Rather currently is --- except that you won't drive Stephen Pelc out of MPE as Elizabeth Rather drove Charles Moore out of Forth Inc., because you will be smart enough to realize that you need somebody around to do the programming in the event that you find a paying customer for MPE on C.L.F.. There has already been one murder attempt on Elizabeth Rather's life. The next one might be more successful. Also, Elizabeth Rather is very old and may keel over from natural causes (too much wine for too many decades). So, you will be in the perfect position to take the helm --- just as Elizabeth Rather was the self-proclaimed "leading expert" of ANS-Forth, you will become the self-proclaimed "leading expert" of Forth-200x -- woo hoo! Good luck, brave Juergen: Sell! Sell! Sell!
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-22 13:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c0a5d93d-71ef-48ae-892d-44385af4a10f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #37535 |
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 1:27:09 AM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote: > What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth > - this was the question. Well, I looked you up on the internet. It turns out that you have already written a book: "Forth Lite Tutorial" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM So, why are you asking the question on C.L.F. now? Doesn't "Forth Lite" mean the same thing as: "minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth"? You must already know the answer, if you wrote a book on the subject. Are you planning on writing another book? I suggest the title: "Limping Forth Tutorial" That should be a big seller! All of the C programmers in the world will immediately throw away their C compilers and buy your book ($4.25) --- and they will also buy VFX, you hope. I was told that VFX costs $1270 (MPE's website is down right now, so I can't verify the price). This is quite a lot of money! For that much money, I would expect it to be delivered to my door by a marching band and a team of cheerleaders. Tell us, Juergen, how much of a commission do you make? > Do you have anything to contribute - otherwise stay out of my thread. > I will do what I think necessary anyway and it is a lot of fun > - except for answering postings like this. Am I running your customers off, Mister Super-Salesman? Well, if you are feeling down, just remember what Zig Ziglar said: "Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude."
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-22 18:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <meng8r$mrk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #37535 |
On 3/22/2015 4:27 AM, JUERGEN wrote: > > A lot of wasted time here - for you to write and for all of us to read. > > What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth > - this was the question. > > Do you have anything to contribute - otherwise stay out of my thread. > I will do what I think necessary anyway and it is a lot of fun > - except for answering postings like this. > > If you know so well how and why it does not work - by definition you know the inverse, how it works .... Do us all a favor and not reply to Hugh's messages when there is no point in replying. If he is being negative and raining on your parade there is no point in telling him he is raining on your parade. Just move on to the next, much happier post... well, sometimes happier... this *is* c.l.f after all. ;) -- Rick
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-22 16:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <411c1261-12d9-4c3d-93e2-aaac58b48d0e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #37535 |
On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 1:27:09 AM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote: > On Sunday, March 22, 2015 at 12:52:52 AM UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > > Your topic heading said: "Beginner's ANS-Forth." Apparently we are discussing education, which isn't what I was talking about above (I was talking about using Forth for micro-controllers). Actually, I don't really care all that much about education, as nobody will volunteer to learn Forth if they don't see the experts making money using Forth in micro-controllers and they don't have an expectation that they will do the same --- other than Gavino, nobody's goal is to have fun, and Gavino is not the most motivated guy around because there are easier ways to have fun, so the fun-seeker gets distracted from Forth pretty quickly (you can't learn Forth if you have a two minute attention-span). > > > > Since we are discussing education though, I will put in my two-cents worth. > > > > The beginner at learning Forth doesn't really care how many primitives there are, because that is something that the compiler-writer has to deal with, not the user. So, the whole thread has diverged into irrelevance by discussing how many primitives are needed, and how some apparently primitive words can actually be implemented in terms of other primitives, although usually at a great cost in efficiency --- this is only an issue for people like Bernd Payson with his B16 that has only 32 primitives, and require the designer to decide which will be anointed with a hardware implementation --- all nonsense anyway, for both beginner and expert, as such a processor will never be anything except a toy. > > > > The beginner at learning Forth does benefit from having a small "word set" (your term) of high-level words, because that is what he is dealing with. For example, in my language I get rid of a lot of cruft such as DO loops (done better with BEGIN and locals) and TO (done better with !), and >R (done better with locals). Although I have some new features (lambda functions), I get rid of a lot of old features, so my language comes out smaller than ANS-Forth, and presumably easier to learn (DO loops are very difficult for beginners to grasp, especially if >R is also available as it clashes). I don't actually know "how many words" I have, as the language design is still in flux --- it is somewhat of a meaningless statistic anyway, as it is more important to keep the understandable words and get rid of the confusing words, than to worry about counting how many words there are. > > > > The beginner at learning Forth mostly benefits from having code libraries available so he doesn't have to write everything from scratch. This is the point that I have made repeatedly, and which Elizabeth Rather is dead set against. The beginner needs to succeed at writing programs in order to learn anything and to be motivated to continue. All programs work with data, and that data has to be held in data-structures --- so the beginner (expert too), is hugely benefited from having general-purpose data-structures available that he can use. If the beginner is forced to write custom data-structures, he will get bogged down, and he will quit without having ever completed a single program --- this is primarily why nobody is learning Forth (all Forth programmers are over 40 years old, and there is no next generation) --- nobody really wants to spend time implementing self-balancing binary trees or hash tables or any other kinds of data-structures, as this is both difficult and boring, and it is really more a job for mathematicians than programmers (binary trees were studied as far back as the 19th century, at a time when being an expert on electricity primarily involved scuffing your boots on the rug and then zapping a cat in the nose with static-discharge). > > > > I think that people who worry about the size of the word-set, are doomed to failure anyway. They believe that learning the language involves reading a reference manual and learning what each word does, and so they suppose that the fewer words they have to learn and the thinner the manual, the sooner they will finish. They are doomed! This is not how programming languages are learned! To learn how to program in a language, it is necessary to write programs in that language. It is best to start writing a program on day one, before you have learned hardly any of the words in the language. As you go, you will find that you need words to do something in your program, so you scan through the reference manual until you find something likely, and you use it. You get your program to work, and then you are happy because you have succeeded. Your program may be badly written though, so you rewrite it using your new knowledge and you do a better job. Write a lot of programs, and write increasingly difficult programs, and pretty soon it will become easy. Never "study" the language though --- this is boring and you will fall asleep --- even if you drink coffee to stay awake, you won't learn anything, and you won't be any closer to being capable of writing a program in the language than you were before you began studying. > > > > P.S. I may provide >R because it is useful when you have a variable number of parameters, but will discourage its use in general, and will encourage the use of locals --- I could describe >R as being expert-level and tell beginners to ignore it. > > A lot of wasted time here - for you to write and for all of us to read. Why is this wasted time? This is the best advice I've got for people trying to learn Forth --- I wasn't being negative or raining on our parade. If you want to learn Forth, then do as I advised: don't study the language, but rather dive right into writing programs and look up what you need as you go --- you can't be a computer programmer except by writing computer programs. If you don't want to learn Forth, then piss off --- C.L.F. is for people who want to learn Forth --- C.L.F. is not a platform for salespeople. This goes for Elizabeth Rather too!
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| From | "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-26 06:35 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth |
| Message-ID | <mf09b6$46n$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #37535 |
JUERGEN wrote: > otherwise stay out of my thread. You don't own Usenet, and you don't own any threads on Usenet.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-27 15:55 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth |
| Message-ID | <mf4cig$et5$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #37671 |
On 3/26/2015 2:35 AM, WJ wrote: > JUERGEN wrote: > >> otherwise stay out of my thread. > > You don't own Usenet, and you don't own any threads > on Usenet. I think that is Juergen's way of saying you are a very annoying person. -- Rick
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| From | "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-28 03:36 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth |
| Message-ID | <op.xv653gk8wa0t4m@localhost> |
| In reply to | #37695 |
On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:55:47 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > On 3/26/2015 2:35 AM, WJ wrote: >> JUERGEN wrote: >>> otherwise stay out of my thread. >> >> You don't own Usenet, and you don't own any threads >> on Usenet. > > I think that is Juergen's way of saying you are a very > annoying person. > WJ, this is what happens when you snip context and author reply lines ... You get blamed and insulted. Rickman, by saying "you", you're referring to WJ, but JUERGEN's comment was in reply to Hugh, not WJ. See here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.forth/pYZEhsI08I8/yN4U0UT5k0gJ MSG-ID <85502ac7-cdf6-4142-9a43-1a0f8416fb7d@googlegroups.com> Rod Pemberton
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| From | "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-03-26 06:34 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth |
| Message-ID | <mf0993$3uq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #37528 |
hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote: > To learn how to program in a language, it is necessary > to write programs in that language. It is best to > start writing a program on day one, before you have > learned hardly any of the words in the language. As > you go, you will find that you need words to do > something in your program, so you scan through the > reference manual until you find something likely, and > you use it. You get your program to work, and then you > are happy because you have succeeded. Your program may > be badly written though, so you rewrite it using your > new knowledge and you do a better job. Write a lot of > programs, and write increasingly difficult programs, > and pretty soon it will become easy. Never "study" the > language though --- this is boring and you will fall > asleep --- even if you drink coffee to stay awake, you > won't learn anything, and you won't be any closer to > being capable of writing a program in the language > than you were before you began studying. This is the procedure that I tend to follow.
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