Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #34394 > unrolled thread

Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae

Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth

Contents

  Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-11-13 14:09 -0800
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-13 19:19 -0800
      Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-13 20:11 -0800
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-13 20:22 -0800
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-11-14 02:48 -0800
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Forth Wright <forthwrightly@spritely.net> - 2014-11-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae november.nihal@gmail.com - 2014-11-14 09:27 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-11-14 16:11 -0300
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-14 21:34 -0500
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-11-15 06:13 -0300
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw Rolf Schroedter <rolf.schroedter@dlr.de> - 2014-11-18 10:30 +0100
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-11-14 12:26 -0800
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-14 13:04 -0800
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-11-15 01:27 -0800
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-11-14 07:46 -1000
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-14 21:44 -0800
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-15 13:00 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-16 00:15 -0500
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-13 23:33 -0500
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-11-14 08:42 -0800
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-11-15 03:16 +0000
    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae ratiovsh@gmail.com - 2014-11-18 09:45 -0800
      Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-19 08:03 -0800
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-11-19 16:49 +0000
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-19 17:58 -0800
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-20 04:21 -0500
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-20 11:04 -0800
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-20 11:18 -0800
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-20 19:43 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-21 19:56 -0500
            Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-20 22:29 -0500
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-20 22:49 -0500
              Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-11-21 02:01 -0800
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-11-21 16:38 -0800
                  Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-21 20:31 -0500
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-11-22 11:30 -0800
                      Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-22 14:52 -0500
                    Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-11-23 05:02 -0600
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae "Rod Pemberton" <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> - 2014-11-21 19:43 -0500
                Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-11-22 01:33 +0100
        Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-19 18:12 +0100
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Softw all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-11-19 16:42 -0300
          Re: Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software From steering telescopes to steering Philae rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-11-19 16:12 -0500

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#34413

JUERGEN wrote:

> Just for your info.
> One aplication where Forth showed what it can do
> 
> Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software
> From steering telescopes to steering Philae
> Intersil's RTX processors and Forth software controlled the successful
> Philae landing

Latest update from the BBC.

The Philae Lander had accomplished >80% of the mission requirements by the 
time the battery ran out of energy to support the electronics. The drill has 
delivered a sample of the comet to the on-board analysis laboratory and the 
results of that have been delivered to Earth. The lander has also been re-
positioned slightly in an attempt to maximise access to sunlight by the 
largest solar panel. The team await 11:00 GMT for the next possible 
opportunity to be in contact with Philae if the 1.5 hours of sunlight the 
lander will see has managed to recharge the batteries sufficiently.

 
-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34491

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 4:09:45 PM UTC-6, JUERGEN wrote:
> Just for your info.
> One aplication where Forth showed what it can do
> 
> Comet Landing - a triumph for Forth in Hardware and Forth in Software
> From steering telescopes to steering Philae
> Intersil's RTX processors and Forth software controlled the successful Philae landing
> 
> Southampton, UK - 13 November 2014 - A proud Forth Community knows that these niche processors and niche languages are sometimes the only choice, and others will re-look at Forth and it's capabilities now again.
> MPE can announce, that MPE Compilers were used on this project.
> It was Intersil RTX Processors running some Forth in hardware, and the Forth programming language that made it happen. Goo processor architectures do not die - they just convert into IP, and MPE can still supply the RTX2000 IP today together with the compiler Tools.
> Intersil's RTX processors made sure the landing on the asteroid was successful. And up to 10 of them are working now in the Philae controlling the systems to gather data about the comet.
> One additional point for using this processor was the availability in radhard - but this was the reason for Intersil to manufacture it in the first place - why else have it in radhard.
> The Forth language was used to program them. A language very close to "radhard software", as the interactive programming structure combining smaller words into larger phrases speeds up programming and makes debugging easier. Certifying code is eased as well, as this language fits nicely into structure of the code. It is like writing a book: first there are letters - Machine Code, then Forth, then words combine these and combine as well words to new words and phrases. When the book is finished, the application is ready.
> And the RTX is still available - some versions difficult to get but the IP in VHDL for FPGA is available from MPE today - and used in special applications.
> For the inventor of Forth this landing must be quite satisfying, as he was involved in many ways: 
> Chuck Moore designed Forth about 45 years ago to control large telescopes as the tools available were not good enough for him.
> Chuck Moore designed the Novix chip to improve speed by putting Forth words in silicon - improving speed and reducing current consumption at the same time.
> Chuck Moore's Novix chip, then adapted and manufactured a series of RTX processors in radhard technology by Intersil.
> And now the landing on Philae using his technology. He must be very proud about this achievement, now on his new venture with a 144 Multicore Forth processor.
> We at MPE can only salute the Rosetta all the people involved and make the IP of the RTX2000 available for projects - used in FPGAs today.
> 
> END
> About MPE Microprocessor Engineering
> MPE is a privately held company based in Southampton UK, founded in 1981 to develop and sell software tools such as compilers, specialising in real-time embedded systems.
> Professional and Standard compilers are available for: ARM and Cortex-M0/M1/M3/M4, ARM/StrongARM/XScale, 386/486/Pentium, H8S, H8/300H and H8/Tiny, Coldfire, 9S12/68HC12, MSP430 and 8051. Custom implementations are available on request.
> 
> MPE also offers as hardware and software consultancy, with particular expertise in high-performance Forth systems and rapid compilation. Projects are staffed by both MPE employees and external consultants.
> 
> MPE products are used in application areas such as glass-grinding, payment terminals, vending machines, bomb-disposal and construction planning. They have been used in products all over the world and as far as comets and Mars.
> 
> Technical Information:
> MPE MicroProcessor Engineering
> Stephen Pelc, MD
> Tel:		+44 (0)23 8063 1441
> Email: 		stephen@mpeforth.com
> Web: 		http://www.mpeforth.com
> 
> PR Contact:
> MPE MicroProcessor Engineering
> Juergen Pintaske
> Tel: 		+44 (0) 7736 70 76 74
> Email: 		juergen@exemark/.com
> Web: 		http://www.mpeforth.com





   Do  you folks   believe in dreams  and visions?

    I have seen  a comet or asteroid  land   in  the North  Atlantic
    in  a  vision.  I have  been doing dream reasearch for  decades!

    Thanks  ,

     vsh

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34506

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:45:22 AM UTC-8, rati...@gmail.com wrote:

>    Do  you folks   believe in dreams  and visions?

I was watching a television program about comets in my motel room after Forth Day.  I saw that the television program was suggesting it would be possible for humans to deflect such a wayward comet such that it would not crash into the Earth.  But, after following the "New Space" movement for over a decade, I will conclude that we still may not be able to have the redundant quick response heavy lift reusable launch capabilities necessary to accomplish such a task. In my opinion, I think that if they discovered a killer asteroid next week, and that if we only had two weeks afterwards to deflect it, we as a species would be reduced to the stone age by the fourth week.   

Humans... not as powerful or god-like as we would like to suppose.

Jason

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34507

Jason Damisch wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:45:22 AM UTC-8, rati...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>>    Do  you folks   believe in dreams  and visions?
> 
> I was watching a television program about comets in my motel room after
> Forth Day.  I saw that the television program was suggesting it would be
> possible for humans to deflect such a wayward comet such that it would not
> crash into the Earth.  But, after following the "New Space" movement for
> over a decade, I will conclude that we still may not be able to have the
> redundant quick response heavy lift reusable launch capabilities necessary
> to accomplish such a task. In my opinion, I think that if they discovered
> a killer asteroid next week, and that if we only had two weeks afterwards
> to deflect it, we as a species would be reduced to the stone age by the
> fourth week.
> 
> Humans... not as powerful or god-like as we would like to suppose.
> 
> Jason

Sometimes it is down to the money and political will and sufficiently 
educated workforce to get such projects off the ground early enough to be of 
real use. Sadly, it seems that the politics will keep the money out of the 
hands of those who could build such technologies until it will be too late.

We are keeping a look out though.

<http://www.nasa.gov/asteroid-and-comet-watch/#.VGzKAfGA_T8>


-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34513

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Paul E Bennett wrote:
> > I was watching a television program about comets in my motel room after
> > Forth Day.  I saw that the television program was suggesting it would be
> > possible for humans to deflect such a wayward comet such that it would not
> > crash into the Earth.  But, after following the "New Space" movement for
> > over a decade, I will conclude that we still may not be able to have the
> > redundant quick response heavy lift reusable launch capabilities necessary
> > to accomplish such a task. In my opinion, I think that if they discovered
> > a killer asteroid next week, and that if we only had two weeks afterwards
> > to deflect it, we as a species would be reduced to the stone age by the
> > fourth week.
> > 
> > Humans... not as powerful or god-like as we would like to suppose.
> > Jason
> 
> Sometimes it is down to the money and political will and sufficiently 
> educated workforce to get such projects off the ground early enough to be of 
> real use. Sadly, it seems that the politics will keep the money out of the 
> hands of those who could build such technologies until it will be too late.

A more likely danger than a comet impact, is a Carrington Event. This could shut down the power-grid. It would also zap all microprocessors in operation, shutting down transportation (all post-1990 cars have micro-controllers) and communication (including C.L.F., although that might be a good thing). All of this zapped electronics can be repaired --- the problem is that if everything fails at once it will be an apocalypse, and nobody will repair anything because everybody will all be hunting vermin with .22 rifles and blowing each other away with over-powered handguns.

Earlier this year we had a near miss with a solar flare, and it is really a matter of "when" and not "if." Also, a Carrington Event can be caused by detonating a nuke in the upper atmosphere --- research has been done on this and it is well know now at exactly the correct altitude to do it, and what kind of nuke to use --- a single nuke could shut down the entire North American continent.

I have read that it is reasonably easy to radiation-harden the power-generating plants, yet this hasn't been done. The issue was brought before Congress by a group that is very worried about the possibility. The result, not surprisingly, is that our leadership calculated the possibility of this happening prior to the next election, and determined that it was too small to make it worth them getting accused of being "tax and spend" politicians, so they did nothing. 

Even if we did know that a comet was going to hit Earth decades ahead of time, we most likely would do nothing because our leadership would say: "Let the next administration deal with that problem." Only when the comet is less than 2 years away would the politicians heroically try to deflect it --- or, more likely, they all go hide out under Mount Weather so there can be a "continuance of government" (what civilization needs most: idiots in charge to screw up royally in the future, just as in the past).

Anyway, I see the best use of these radhard RTX2000 processors to be hardening important electronics (mostly the power-grid) here on Earth against a Carrington Event --- not usage in the very occasional Philae-type mission --- as I said before, the only way to make money with micro-controllers is to sell in volume, not to have a single big-news mission like Philae.

P.S. Nuking a comet isn't necessarily going to deflect it; it may just break it up into smaller pieces, and it continues on the same course. This could result in multiple hits to the planet, rather than just one, which could make the disaster worse rather than better. Also, a lot of comets aren't one piece to start with, so nuking it may have no effect at all --- there is no atmosphere in outer space, so the chunks can't be "blown away" by a bomb, as there is no air to blow with.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34515

On 11/19/2014 8:58 PM, hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:49:50 AM UTC-7, Paul E Bennett wrote:
>>> I was watching a television program about comets in my motel room after
>>> Forth Day.  I saw that the television program was suggesting it would be
>>> possible for humans to deflect such a wayward comet such that it would not
>>> crash into the Earth.  But, after following the "New Space" movement for
>>> over a decade, I will conclude that we still may not be able to have the
>>> redundant quick response heavy lift reusable launch capabilities necessary
>>> to accomplish such a task. In my opinion, I think that if they discovered
>>> a killer asteroid next week, and that if we only had two weeks afterwards
>>> to deflect it, we as a species would be reduced to the stone age by the
>>> fourth week.
>>>
>>> Humans... not as powerful or god-like as we would like to suppose.
>>> Jason
>>
>> Sometimes it is down to the money and political will and sufficiently
>> educated workforce to get such projects off the ground early enough to be of
>> real use. Sadly, it seems that the politics will keep the money out of the
>> hands of those who could build such technologies until it will be too late.
>
> A more likely danger than a comet impact, is a Carrington Event. This could shut down the power-grid. It would also zap all microprocessors in operation, shutting down transportation (all post-1990 cars have micro-controllers) and communication (including C.L.F., although that might be a good thing). All of this zapped electronics can be repaired --- the problem is that if everything fails at once it will be an apocalypse, and nobody will repair anything because everybody will all be hunting vermin with .22 rifles and blowing each other away with over-powered handguns.
>
> Earlier this year we had a near miss with a solar flare, and it is really a matter of "when" and not "if." Also, a Carrington Event can be caused by detonating a nuke in the upper atmosphere --- research has been done on this and it is well know now at exactly the correct altitude to do it, and what kind of nuke to use --- a single nuke could shut down the entire North American continent.
>
> I have read that it is reasonably easy to radiation-harden the power-generating plants, yet this hasn't been done. The issue was brought before Congress by a group that is very worried about the possibility. The result, not surprisingly, is that our leadership calculated the possibility of this happening prior to the next election, and determined that it was too small to make it worth them getting accused of being "tax and spend" politicians, so they did nothing.
>
> Even if we did know that a comet was going to hit Earth decades ahead of time, we most likely would do nothing because our leadership would say: "Let the next administration deal with that problem." Only when the comet is less than 2 years away would the politicians heroically try to deflect it --- or, more likely, they all go hide out under Mount Weather so there can be a "continuance of government" (what civilization needs most: idiots in charge to screw up royally in the future, just as in the past).
>
> Anyway, I see the best use of these radhard RTX2000 processors to be hardening important electronics (mostly the power-grid) here on Earth against a Carrington Event --- not usage in the very occasional Philae-type mission --- as I said before, the only way to make money with micro-controllers is to sell in volume, not to have a single big-news mission like Philae.
>
> P.S. Nuking a comet isn't necessarily going to deflect it; it may just break it up into smaller pieces, and it continues on the same course. This could result in multiple hits to the planet, rather than just one, which could make the disaster worse rather than better. Also, a lot of comets aren't one piece to start with, so nuking it may have no effect at all --- there is no atmosphere in outer space, so the chunks can't be "blown away" by a bomb, as there is no air to blow with.

You show a very broad base of ignorance.

-- 

Rick

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34518

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:58:50 PM UTC-8, hughag...@yahoo.com wrote:

> A more likely danger than a comet impact, is a Carrington Event.
> This could shut down the power-grid. 

I agree that a Carrington Event is also a concern.


> I have read that it is reasonably easy to radiation-harden
> the power-generating plants, yet this hasn't been done. 

I assert that nuclear power plants should especially be rad-hardened.


> Even if we did know that a comet was going to hit Earth decades 
> ahead of time, we most likely would do nothing because 
> our leadership would say: "Let the next administration deal 
> with that problem." 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis

People thought that Aphophis might hit the Earth.  There was about a half
year between it's discovery, and the time when it passed close to Earth.
It is possible that a NEO might be discovered within only a few weeks of
it passing by the Earth.  My memory seems to indicate that there were a
few of these in the news during the last few years. 

I will not make the assumption that we will be able to find, catalog,
and plot the orbits of all NEOs such that we will have 99.99% certainty
that we will be able to have a two year or a four year window of 
opportunity to be able to divert the catastrophe.  This in spite of being
told otherwise by Amy Mainzer, bless her heart. 

http://www.space.com/13129-killer-asteroids-wise.html

Even if such an emergency were to arise, humanity still does not have
a rapid response heavy lift reusable launch vehicle capable of handling
the problem.

As Forth programmers, you folks ought to know better than to just assume 
that any given attempt to solve a problem may need several iterations 
before it is solved.  So, a four year window with a single launch of a 
very expensive rocket requiring a very large ground crew with a very 
complex to implement plan might not be adequate, I know.

Only a rapid response heavy lift reusable launch vehicle would provide
reasonable certainty of being able to divert one of these things. 

Atleast we have Elon Musk.  But, even he said that he does not know how
to bring back a second stage.  Their plan right now is to be able to fly
back the first stage, and just chuck the second stage.  That is about as
good we humans can hope for in the near future.

Sigh!

Jason

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34519

Photos: Potentially Dangerous Asteroids
http://www.space.com/20151-potentially-dangerous-asteroids-images.html


Asteroid Impact Threat: Experts Report on Early-Warning Strategies
http://www.space.com/27809-asteroid-impact-early-warning-system.html

Jason

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34530

On Thursday, November 20, 2014 12:04:13 PM UTC-7, Jason Damisch wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:58:50 PM UTC-8, hughag...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > A more likely danger than a comet impact, is a Carrington Event.
> > This could shut down the power-grid. 
> 
> I agree that a Carrington Event is also a concern.
> 
> > I have read that it is reasonably easy to radiation-harden
> > the power-generating plants, yet this hasn't been done. 
> 
> I assert that nuclear power plants should especially be rad-hardened.

My post conflated an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) caused by a Carrington Event, with radiation, although they are actually different.

An EMP will cause current to flow through conductors, causing electronics to get fried. It is static electricity. It doesn't matter if the electronics is in operation at the time or not. Small delicate circuitry, such as inside of a processor, is more vulnerable than big wiring (although the actual Carrington Event zapped telegraphs and even burned one telegraph operator). 

I don't know what radiation does to electronic equipment. I doubt that this is comparable to an EMP at all though, so the "radhard" processors such as the RTX2010 are not necessarily going to be resistant to a Carrington Event.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34551

On Thu, 20 Nov 2014 22:43:14 -0500, <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 20, 2014 12:04:13 PM UTC-7, Jason Damisch wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:58:50 PM UTC-8, hughag...@yahoo.com  
>> wrote:

>>> I have read that it is reasonably easy to radiation-harden
>>> the power-generating plants, yet this hasn't been done.
>>
>> I assert that nuclear power plants should especially be rad-hardened.
>
> My post conflated an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) caused by a Carrington  
> Event, with radiation, although they are actually different.
>
> An EMP will cause current to flow through conductors, causing  
> electronics to get fried.

...

> It is static electricity.

Static electricity?  No.
Induced current.  Yes.

According to Wikipedia, an EMP can have both an electric field
and magnetic field.

If the EMP has a magnetic field component, then this could/would
induce a current in conductors.  I.e., a changing magnetic field
induces current, as per Faraday's law of induction.  The change
is from almost no change in the local magnetic field to a sudden
magnetic field from the EMP pulse.

If the magnetic field is sufficiently large, the induced current
could be large enough to burn up traces, resistors, inductors,
destroy ICs and damage static sensitive components.  It's very
possible that the induced currents are minimal even for a very
large EMP.  My recollection is that most of the field strength
laws are inversely proportional to either distance or the square
of distance.  I.e., the field strength declines rapidly the
further you're away from the source.  I don't know if that's the
case for an EMP pulse.  It may just be for things like magnets
and electromagnets which have static (non-changing) fields.


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34529

On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 20:58:49 -0500, <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote:

> [...]
> Anyway, I see the best use of these radhard RTX2000 processors to be  
> hardening important electronics (mostly the power-grid) here on Earth  
> against a Carrington Event --- [...]

Most U.S. produced, radiation hardened processors are
subject to ITAR restrictions.  I.e., even where legal,
their use is avoided to prevent unintentional ITAR
violations.

Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?

http://www.sandia.gov/media/rhp.htm

Why would they use radiation hardened processors for the
power-grid?  That's an extra expense for protection from
highly unlikely events.  It's almost like a homeowner
investing in a lightning rod or a horse whip.  You might
need one someday, but it's far more likely you never will.
I.e., this doesn't seem to pass a cost versus benefit test.

There is a certain sense of efficiency and practicality
that engineers and businessmen have that others seem
to lack.  This reminds me of the photo of a man on his
bicycle in Donetsk, Ukraine staring at a small gas
pipeline.  Most of it is low to the ground, much like a
fence.  Of course, it's way too low to cross over roads.
So, it was raised, but only over the roads ...  It was
raised just enough so that an average height truck
wouldn't hit the pipe.


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34531

On 11/20/2014 10:29 PM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 20:58:49 -0500, <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> Anyway, I see the best use of these radhard RTX2000 processors to be
>> hardening important electronics (mostly the power-grid) here on Earth
>> against a Carrington Event --- [...]
>
> Most U.S. produced, radiation hardened processors are
> subject to ITAR restrictions.  I.e., even where legal,
> their use is avoided to prevent unintentional ITAR
> violations.
>
> Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
> hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
>
> http://www.sandia.gov/media/rhp.htm
>
> Why would they use radiation hardened processors for the
> power-grid?  That's an extra expense for protection from
> highly unlikely events.  It's almost like a homeowner
> investing in a lightning rod or a horse whip.  You might
> need one someday, but it's far more likely you never will.
> I.e., this doesn't seem to pass a cost versus benefit test.
>
> There is a certain sense of efficiency and practicality
> that engineers and businessmen have that others seem
> to lack.  This reminds me of the photo of a man on his
> bicycle in Donetsk, Ukraine staring at a small gas
> pipeline.  Most of it is low to the ground, much like a
> fence.  Of course, it's way too low to cross over roads.
> So, it was raised, but only over the roads ...  It was
> raised just enough so that an average height truck
> wouldn't hit the pipe.

Given a major CME event, is radiation a real problem?  I thought the 
issue was the EMP.  I would think we would be extinguished by a lower 
level of radiation than our electronics would be.

-- 

Rick

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34536

On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:29:53 UTC, Rod Pemberton  wrote:
> Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
> hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
> 
Because the Pentium, compared to the RTX is a power hog.
According to something I read about the Philae project,
the overriding constraint was the power budget. The RTX
was/is the lowest power consuming rad-hardened device
available. That it runs Forth is cool, but the instruction
set had nothing to do with its selection as the processor
to use. It was the power budget. I did see it confirmed
just today (over on the Fignition Forth mailing list
(a google group)) that 9 of the 10 Forth CPUs were coded
directly in Forth. The other was coded in C, with obviously
some sort of C to Forth compiler to produce the under-lying
machine code.


> Why would they use radiation hardened processors for the
> power-grid?  That's an extra expense for protection from
> highly unlikely events.  It's almost like a homeowner
> investing in a lightning rod or a horse whip.  You might
> need one someday, but it's far more likely you never will.
> I.e., this doesn't seem to pass a cost versus benefit test.
> 
Agree. Although it's probably not a cost versus benefit, well,
not *directly*. It would have been considered on a cost/likelihood
calculation. It's known as ALARP, and was probably rejected
due to the projected likelihood of it ever happening being condifered
very low. Cost *does* come into ALARP though, hence why I said
not *directly*. So yeah, I would agree.

In casae you're interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALARP

> This reminds me of the photo of a man on his
> bicycle in Donetsk, Ukraine staring at a small gas
> pipeline.  Most of it is low to the ground, much like a
> fence.  Of course, it's way too low to cross over roads.
> So, it was raised, but only over the roads ...  It was
> raised just enough so that an average height truck
> wouldn't hit the pipe.
> 
That wouldn't have been a gas pipe. It would be a steam pipe.
They're all over the ex-soviet countries. Heat for homes is
generated centrally and piped (as high-pressure steam) directly
into peoples homes. They're damn hot. At, least if you live
close to the steam generator! When I lived/worked in Kazakhstan
I would have to crack the windows open a little in winter as
it was boiling in the house. However, it was -45C (-49F) outside!

Just so you know :-)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34548

On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:01:04 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:29:53 UTC, Rod Pemberton  wrote:
> > Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
> > hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
> > 
> Because the Pentium, compared to the RTX is a power hog.

The idea of using a Pentium as a micro-controller on a spaceship is pretty funny --- only Rod would think of that! --- but I suppose it is better than the IBM360 that was used during the Apollo missions.

20 years ago when I worked at Testra, the 80186 and the NEC V20 were sometimes used as micro-controllers. I asked about that at Testra, and was told that they were terrible choices --- almost any micro-controller would be better --- the x86 were only used because the programmer was already familiar with it from MS-DOS computers and/or wanted to use MS-DOS on the micro-controller (if it had a hard-disk). The x86 processors use way too much juice. They also are extremely slow on interrupt response time (the NEC chips slightly better because they can save all the registers with a single instruction), and most micro-controller programs spend over 50% of their time in ISRs. The x86 are also very expensive, although that wouldn't be an issue with a spaceship that presumably has a huge budget --- it would be an issue for any down-to-Earth project.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34553

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:38:46 -0500, <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:01:04 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
>> On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:29:53 UTC, Rod Pemberton  wrote:

>> > Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
>> > hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
>> >
>> Because the Pentium, compared to the RTX is a power hog.
>
> The idea of using a Pentium as a micro-controller on a spaceship is  
> pretty funny --- only Rod would think of that!

Really?  ...  Why?

It seems Intel chips have been used quite a bit for just that:
http://www.cpushack.com/space-craft-cpu.html


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34561

On Friday, November 21, 2014 8:31:52 PM UTC-5, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:38:46 -0500, <hughaguilar> wrote:
> > On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:01:04 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> >> On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:29:53 UTC, Rod Pemberton  wrote:
> 
> >> > Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
> >> > hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
> >> >
> >> Because the Pentium, compared to the RTX is a power hog.
> >
> > The idea of using a Pentium as a micro-controller on a spaceship is  
> > pretty funny --- only Rod would think of that!
> 
> Really?  ...  Why?
> 
> It seems Intel chips have been used quite a bit for just that:
> http://www.cpushack.com/space-craft-cpu.html
> 
> 
> Rod Pemberton

Thanks for this really interesting Link, Rod!
Seems to be it needs an update about the comet mission, and seems to be the RTX2000 was the cheapest of all these micros listed!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34562

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 14:30:19 -0500, <visualforth@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 8:31:52 PM UTC-5, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 19:38:46 -0500, <hughaguilar> wrote:
>> > On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:01:04 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
>> >> On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:29:53 UTC, Rod Pemberton  wrote:

>> >> > Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
>> >> > hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
>> >> >
>> >> Because the Pentium, compared to the RTX is a power hog.
>> >
>> > The idea of using a Pentium as a micro-controller on a spaceship is
>> > pretty funny --- only Rod would think of that!
>>
>> Really?  ...  Why?
>>
>> It seems Intel chips have been used quite a bit for just that:
>> http://www.cpushack.com/space-craft-cpu.html
>>
> Thanks for this really interesting Link, Rod!
> Seems to be it needs an update about the comet mission, and seems to be  
> the RTX2000 was the cheapest of all these micros listed!

If you go to CPUShack's home page, they have an article
on the Philae mission and RTX2000 setup used.

For those who haven't seen CPUShack previously, it has a
large amount of pictures of CPUs, since they collect them,
along with some other information.  E.g., for Harris
Semiconductor they have 34 pictures of their processors:

http://www.cpushack.com/chippics/Harris/


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34571

Rod Pemberton <buzzoff@nonamewhichexists.cmm> wrote:
> 
> It seems Intel chips have been used quite a bit for just that:
> http://www.cpushack.com/space-craft-cpu.html

Which reminds me: I did a Forth port for the 1750A.  It was a great
architecture, very well-suited to Forth, complete with a
single-instruction direct-threaded NEXT.  Also, the interrupt
structure was very well-organized, easy to use, and fast.  The
floating-point support was a bit weird, though.  Overall, it was one
of the nicest architectures I've ever programmed.

Andrew.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34549

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:01:03 -0500, Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com>  
wrote:
> On Friday, 21 November 2014 03:29:53 UTC, Rod Pemberton  wrote:

>> Also, why would they use RTX2000 series when radiation
>> hardened Intel Pentiums have been available since 1998?
>>
> Because the Pentium, compared to the RTX is a power hog.
> According to something I read about the Philae project,
> the overriding constraint was the power budget. The RTX
> was/is the lowest power consuming rad-hardened device
> available. That it runs Forth is cool, but the instruction
> set had nothing to do with its selection as the processor
> to use. It was the power budget. I did see it confirmed
> just today (over on the Fignition Forth mailing list
> (a google group)) that 9 of the 10 Forth CPUs were coded
> directly in Forth. The other was coded in C, with obviously
> some sort of C to Forth compiler to produce the under-lying
> machine code.
>

Fair enough.

Although, I did mean that in the context of Hugh's belief
they'd use the RTX2000 for the power grid.  I really can't
see most businesses choosing a solution which might be
harder or costlier for them to maintain.  I guess the lack
of programmers for Forth, and even smaller group of hackers
who would attack Forth systems, could be considered a
"security" feature ...  Of course, it's very possible that
US laws might, currently or in the future, force them to
take protections against terrorist or world wars.

>> This reminds me of the photo of a man on his
>> bicycle in Donetsk, Ukraine staring at a small gas
>> pipeline.  Most of it is low to the ground, much like a
>> fence.  Of course, it's way too low to cross over roads.
>> So, it was raised, but only over the roads ...  It was
>> raised just enough so that an average height truck
>> wouldn't hit the pipe.
>>
>
> That wouldn't have been a gas pipe. It would be a steam pipe.

Yes, I was thinking hydrocarbon gas.  Although, steam is a gas ...
So, is it still a gas pipepline?  :-)

> They're all over the ex-soviet countries. Heat for homes is
> generated centrally and piped (as high-pressure steam) directly
> into peoples homes. They're damn hot. At, least if you live
> close to the steam generator! When I lived/worked in Kazakhstan
> I would have to crack the windows open a little in winter as
> it was boiling in the house. However, it was -45C (-49F) outside!

A relative had to do much the same when living in New York city
in a building with steam heat.

Supposedly, the air conditioning in an old urban building of a
former employer, now demolished, ran on city supplied steam.


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#34550

Op Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:01:03 -0800 (PST) schreef Mark Wills:

<snip>
> That wouldn't have been a gas pipe. It would be a steam pipe.
> They're all over the ex-soviet countries. Heat for homes is
> generated centrally and piped (as high-pressure steam) directly
> into peoples homes. They're damn hot. At, least if you live
> close to the steam generator! When I lived/worked in Kazakhstan
> I would have to crack the windows open a little in winter as
> it was boiling in the house. However, it was -45C (-49F) outside!
> 
> Just so you know :-)

Some cities in the Netherlands have 'stadsverwarming, city heating' were
the remaining heat of electric powerplant is distributed through big
isolated underground pipes. I have worked at Sonnenborgh, the old
observatory, that has this and my current home has it too. At the moment it
heats my room a little for the first time this winter. Outside it's about
+10 C. Much higher than the -7 C or lower in the US.
I guess I'm spoiled ;-)
-- 
Coos

CHForth, 16 bit DOS applications
http://home.hccnet.nl/j.j.haak/forth.html 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.forth

csiph-web