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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #29282 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700 |
| Last post | 2014-12-02 04:54 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 432 — 42 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
Epic Fail Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-04 12:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail forthisit@gmail.com - 2014-04-04 11:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-04 22:09 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:44 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 09:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 10:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-05 15:25 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:29 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 12:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 15:54 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-09 16:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 13:00 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 21:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 15:17 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 00:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-09 22:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 00:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-10 16:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:35 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-10 17:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 21:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-11 23:10 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:18 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:23 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-12 20:14 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 19:21 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:25 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 16:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 09:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-12 10:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 13:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 00:25 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 10:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-14 02:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 17:59 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 02:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 18:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 14:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 21:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 12:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:02 -0700
Automatic scoping of locals (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:49 +0000
Re: Automatic scoping of locals (was: Epic Fail) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-05-02 22:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 03:04 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 21:42 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-11 16:13 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 22:15 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 16:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 18:42 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-13 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 04:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 11:56 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 14:53 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 07:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 21:21 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-15 04:07 -0500
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-14 09:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-14 22:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 04:10 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 02:40 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 06:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:20 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-15 12:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-15 20:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 23:50 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-15 21:31 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-16 14:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-16 06:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-19 17:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 00:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-16 22:45 -0400
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 13:07 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-23 20:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-23 14:41 -1000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-24 17:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-24 15:14 -0400
@ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:40 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 06:13 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 15:26 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 09:03 -0700
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:45 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 11:15 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:22 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:38 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 11:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 14:35 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 09:59 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:14 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:30 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:05 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:39 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 18:07 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 13:00 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 11:18 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:12 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 03:52 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 03:09 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 09:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 08:36 -1000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-30 10:18 +0000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 10:21 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 15:41 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 12:26 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-30 10:44 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 09:18 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-30 17:48 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-01 03:55 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-01 14:21 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-01 10:11 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-05-01 14:20 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-01 12:38 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:17 +0200
Re: @ and optimization stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:21 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:20 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:02 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 20:55 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:28 -0500
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:31 +0000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:23 +0000
Re: @ and optimization hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:32 -0700
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 08:50 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-26 22:52 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 20:33 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-27 11:53 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 01:05 -0400
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 21:34 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 13:37 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 22:03 +0100
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:24 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:48 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:09 +0100
Re: @ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-24 19:17 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:27 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-25 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-26 14:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 15:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 09:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 10:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 05:06 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-26 03:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 14:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:58 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:46 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 00:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:17 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 13:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 09:11 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:45 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 21:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:31 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-27 13:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 22:19 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-14 22:02 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 18:57 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-15 05:05 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 22:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:34 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-14 13:22 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-14 11:59 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-17 16:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-17 15:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-17 23:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-18 04:38 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-18 09:17 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:44 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:41 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 16:55 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-18 19:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 12:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:36 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-20 08:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-21 10:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-21 19:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-22 20:47 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-19 11:34 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-19 16:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 12:38 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 12:11 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-21 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 04:58 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:05 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-20 19:47 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 05:03 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 11:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 08:28 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 15:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 13:23 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-22 19:19 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Todd Hughes <noemail@dontemailme.org> - 2014-04-10 11:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 06:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-10 15:50 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 11:02 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:31 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-11 03:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:08 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 17:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 18:59 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 19:11 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-11 12:05 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 22:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 20:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Epic Fail visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-04-11 14:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2014-04-12 01:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-11-30 01:47 -0800
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 16:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-04 23:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 16:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 06:37 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 01:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-04 17:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-05 02:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-04-04 17:46 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:59 -1000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-05 08:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-05 14:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-05 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 19:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 10:46 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 13:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 19:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 12:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-06 16:40 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-06 22:04 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 23:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 23:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:34 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:29 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:33 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 19:33 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 20:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:23 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 03:24 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:20 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 14:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 08:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 20:27 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 02:57 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:00 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 16:10 +0200
Re: Epic Fail m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-04-07 07:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-07 01:02 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:49 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 19:01 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:13 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 20:34 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:04 -0700
[OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 00:42 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:14 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:15 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:10 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:35 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:48 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-04-07 11:26 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-07 17:54 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 12:14 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 09:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 12:53 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 00:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-06 13:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 07:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:18 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 08:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 22:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-06 12:08 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 22:03 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-07 01:29 -0700
locals in nested definitions (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-07 11:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 14:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 21:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-07 19:33 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-08 09:07 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 12:35 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 16:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 16:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 23:41 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 22:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 10:43 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 07:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 08:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:02 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 23:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 15:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 17:46 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 01:06 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 02:56 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:24 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-09 02:22 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 17:07 +0300
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 03:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 07:17 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 03:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:45 -0700
Re: Epic Fail kerdezixe@gmail.com - 2014-04-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 11:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:46 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:13 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-30 23:30 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 16:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-01 03:33 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-05-01 04:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 16:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-01 03:56 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 02:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 06:45 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-30 22:02 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-01 04:04 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-01 16:08 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-02 08:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-02 22:33 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-02 15:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-03 04:30 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-30 09:53 +0000
Forth on JVM (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-30 09:24 +0000
Re: Forth on JVM (was: Epic Fail) jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 17:14 -0700
Re: Forth on JVM (was: Epic Fail) jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 17:27 -0700
Re: Forth on JVM (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-05-01 15:25 +0000
Re: Forth on JVM (was: Epic Fail) "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2014-05-03 08:28 +0100
Re: Forth on JVM (was: Epic Fail) "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2014-05-01 07:52 +0100
Re: Forth on JVM Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-01 04:06 -0500
Re: Forth on JVM Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2014-05-01 14:28 +0200
Re: Epic Fail AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-04-29 20:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:09 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 09:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 11:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-29 20:13 +0000
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) C G Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2014-11-29 17:15 -0500
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2014-11-29 14:20 -0800
Re: Epic failure awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2014-11-29 23:35 +0100
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-30 00:31 +0100
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-11-29 17:41 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) mhx@iae.nl - 2014-11-30 00:04 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) mhx@iae.nl - 2014-11-30 00:09 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-11-30 17:22 +0100
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-30 02:13 +0000
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-11-29 18:55 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-11-30 16:50 +0000
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-01 01:22 +0100
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-02 06:00 +0100
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-02 06:37 +0100
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-12-02 12:28 +0000
Re: Epic failure Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-02 18:03 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-12-05 10:10 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-05 16:23 -0500
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-05 13:46 -0800
Re: Epic failure (was Epic Fail) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-01 07:54 +0000
Re: Epic failure awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2014-12-01 14:02 +0100
Re: Epic failure hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2014-12-01 15:04 -0800
Re: Epic failure awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2014-12-02 04:54 +0100
Page 14 of 22 — ← Prev page 1 … 12 13 [14] 15 16 … 22 Next page →
| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-04 21:59 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <55KdnZb6bppxKqLOnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29289 |
On 4/4/14 2:46 PM, Hannu Vuolasaho wrote: > On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:26:04 PM UTC+3, Jason Damisch wrote: > >> I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind >> boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" >> because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite >> usable and is *extremely* flexible. Java "won" because it was designed for a special purpose, and backed by a major organization pouring significant resources into that purpose. Moreover, it was an application domain that was exploding worldwide. Finally, it was grounded in existing technology and hence familiar to mainstream programmers. Forth was also designed for a special purpose: dedicated embedded system programming (although it has been used successfully in other areas). But no major organization backing, and idiosyncratic syntax. > I have read that there are two hard things in programming. Cache invalidation > and naming things. In Forth you name a lot of things and in collabrative > development it is nightmare. To understand your coworkers code when only hint > might be the name of the word. It is not very productive. One counter sympton > is to have rather long i_module_some_job_parameters functions in C. Having worked on and managed many team projects, some quite large, I can testify that that problem is more imagined than real, if the project is well-managed and the programmers willing to work within style guidelines (which all good professionals are). ... > With Forth it is always a bit of unknown territory in the beginning of new > project even there are some libs to support development. That is unknown > factor in management. No matter how good your designs are, the implementation > goes different direction than planned and takes more time. My experience (over 30 years using Forth) has been that using Forth in a project shortens the development time drastically compared to previous estimates based on other languages. > One thing is how Forth reacts bugs. It crashes hard while Javascript says > can't set property of undefined and continues like everything is working. > Now marketing can sell something and there is money coming from broken webapp. Much depends upon the particular environment. Java is designed for web-based, remote applications in which encountering an incompatibility must be responded to by a "soft fail". A Forth application can be made to respond that way, but in a low-level embedded controller the tradeoffs are different. In development, a cross-compiler can provide a lot of diagnostics after a crash, and in the field a restart is the most appropriate response. It's a different application domain with different requirements and expectations. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 08:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <533fc416$0$27156$e4fe514c@dreader35.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
In article <f357fc56-c996-4d72-a53d-194a13e276ec@googlegroups.com>, Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> wrote: >Why did Forth fail so badly? > >I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind >boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" >because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite >usable and is *extremely* flexible. The USA is a large failure. In 2014 it is estimated that less than 10% of the world population is living in the USA. (For those a bit dumb witted: spot the mistake.) > >Jason Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 14:45 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lhp1e9$1lf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29296 |
on 05/04/2014 09:51:33, wrote: > In article <f357fc56-c996-4d72-a53d-194a13e276ec@googlegroups.com>, > Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> wrote: >>Why did Forth fail so badly? >> >>I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind >>boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" >>because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite >>usable and is *extremely* flexible. > > The USA is a large failure. In 2014 it is estimated that less than > 10% of the world population is living in the USA. > > (For those a bit dumb witted: spot the mistake.) The US consumes 80% of the world's painkillers while suffering 0.08% of the world's pain. (Somehow, measuring success or failure always boils down to a few key figures, most of them ridiculous in their application to the argument.) > >> >>Jason > > Groetjes Albert
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 16:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xfvlrfkjv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> writes: > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be > mind boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth > Sucks" because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is > still quite usable and is *extremely* flexible. People want two things from a language: 1) Given a blank screen and a problem to solve, they want to be able to bang out a solution quickly. 2) Given a large existing program and a bug report (that might be an enhancement request), they again want to be able to bang out a solution quickly, WITHOUT requiring having the existing codebase in their head before they start. Most Forth success stories I've heard are about desire #1. Those kinds of successes are of course perfectly great. It seems to me that Forth was designed for #1 but has various aspects (lack of a type system, roll-your-own everything) that aren't so great for #2. Java is designed mostly around desire #2. In the 1990's-and-later world of complex software, maintaining code is a bigger task than initially writing it. Java isn't so good at desire #1, but that is acceptable for many projects where the code is expected to stay around for a long time. I don't hear many Forth stories about successes in area #2. Maybe they exist, but are not publicized outside the organizations doing the work. I don't know.
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| From | hughaguilar96@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 19:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <228fb0b6-f8af-4fd5-800d-b84a91d8aaa7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29305 |
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> writes: > > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be > > mind boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth > > Sucks" because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is > > still quite usable and is *extremely* flexible. > > People want two things from a language: The "people" that you are talking about are professionals, not professors --- there is a big difference. In the old days, Pascal was the standard language taught in college. A problem with Pascal however, is that each programmer on a multi-user computer doesn't get his own "sandbox." This is a big problem because the students tend to write buggy programs that can bring the whole system down. Also, the smarter ones tend to write programs that snoop into other users' space --- definitely a problem if the teacher has his stuff (like the homework answers, or the upcoming exam) on the same computer that the students are using. I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside of the sandbox. The colleges didn't care that Java is a bad language, because whatever the colleges choose is "good" by definition, and anybody who criticizes it gets an 'F' --- so if the college says that Java is good, then every graduate will believe in his stomach (if not in his heart) that Java is good --- and the critics of Java will have all switched over to mechanical-engineering where the distinction between good and bad is much more objective. I think that it is possible to make a secure Forth system. Doing so never occurred to me prior to reading about Java though, and by that time it was too late to compete with Java. I will make my language secure --- it is ITC, so doing so shouldn't be too difficult --- security might be a selling point for some.
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| From | Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 10:46 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ke82k9lcll2plff5m82ohh1rt2ktmv63n0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #29309 |
On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT), hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote: >On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > >I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside of the sandbox. I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in introductory courses. Java was competing with C. For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer Science 101. But C has those pesky pointers. Which means students have to understand how the machine works: memory, addresses, pointers, dereferencing, double pointers. And you have to remember to free your memory. Java got rid of pointers and got rid of memory management. Now Professor could teach Computer Science 101 a little more like BASIC ---just programming --- instead of having his students have to understand how the machine works. CS 101 got a whole lot easier to teach (with fewer complaints from students). But the your average young programmer is now a lot more insulated from the machine. - Assad
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 13:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhrda6$q8$3@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29318 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 10:46:49 +0100 Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> wrote: > On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT), hughaguilar96@yahoo.com > wrote: > >On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > > > >I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard > >language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security > >features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside > >of the sandbox. > > I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in > introductory courses. > > Java was competing with C. Java was built on C++. > > For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer > Science 101. > > But C has those pesky pointers. Which means students have to > understand how the machine works: memory, addresses, pointers, > dereferencing, double pointers. And you have to remember to free your > memory. > > Java got rid of pointers and got rid of memory management. Java got rid of almost everything of C++ and make object orientation as a must. -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 19:58 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <hi83k9lqvhmsl5t0bs3dpnlmqihus92agi@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #29319 |
On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 13:20:38 +0200, Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote: > >On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 10:46:49 +0100 >Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> wrote: > >> I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in >> introductory courses. Java was competing with C. > >Java was built on C++. > >> >> For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer >> Science 101. >> >> But C has those pesky pointers. Which means students have to >> understand how the machine works: memory, addresses, pointers, >> dereferencing, double pointers. And you have to remember to free your >> memory. >> >> Java got rid of pointers and got rid of memory management. > >Java got rid of almost everything of C++ and make object orientation >as a must. You're right, good point. I focused on C because C++ is almost never taught as a first course. However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. But that gets ugly real fast since the object oriententation in C++ is complicated by its being built on top of C -- with C poking through. Templates are also complicated. C++ may be a powerful language, but it is not simple and it is not 'beautiful' in the sense of either simplicity or elegance. So, yes, I think that aspect of Java made it even more appealing to academia. It took care of the 'problems' of the first *two* intro courses, not just the first one ;) - Assad
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 12:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x7g72w93a.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29329 |
Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> writes: > However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C > was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was > introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except maybe in some context like embedded development. The MIT SICP (Scheme-based) curriculum was popular in the 1980's-1990's and now MIT is using Python while CMU is using ML. The ML approach sounded like it was working well: https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic."
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| From | "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 16:40 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <op.xdww1oa26zenlw@localhost> |
| In reply to | #29330 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:28:57 -0400, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except > maybe in some context like embedded development. There is a truly incredulous "Really?" waiting for you sir! Do you remember the other languages that were taught at colleges and universities 20 to 30 years ago? e.g., FORTRAN, COBOL, mainframe assembly, ... I don't know how C could be *anywhere* near as bad a choice as the other horrid languages colleges and universities once taught. The only exceptions would be Pascal and BASIC, and they didn't generally teach BASIC because it was unstructured and could lead to "spaghetti" code. Unfortunately, Pascal back then was "impotent" or "neutered." (Hey, you guys insist on using "carnal knowledge"...) Pascal simply couldn't do any low-level stuff back then. I.e., there is an accepted ideology in computer science (CS) departments as to what is an acceptable programming language to be taught and what isn't. > "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory > curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its > very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new > course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the > sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." See, see, see what I mean! There it is. That's a (new) CS department ideology. First it was "spaghetti" code, then it was "untamed pointers", and now it's apparently "object-oriented programming", being "reserved" for "advanced" students. It seems that all CS professors all hate the widely accepted languages and their programming concepts. Just ask Anton. He's teaching Forth now. That's like teaching Latin or Sumerian in a world that speaks English and Chinese. It's insane. I'm wondering if he's going to teach them how to patch concrete next. That's probably a far more useful life skill for the majority of students ... Rod Pemberton
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| From | "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 22:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lhsfgg$kvf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29332 |
on 06/04/2014 21:40:27, "Rod Pemberton" wrote: > On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:28:57 -0400, Paul Rubin > <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > >> I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except >> maybe in some context like embedded development. > > There is a truly incredulous "Really?" waiting for you sir! > > Do you remember the other languages that were taught at colleges and > universities 20 to 30 years ago? e.g., FORTRAN, COBOL, mainframe > assembly, ... > > I don't know how C could be *anywhere* near as bad a choice as the > other horrid languages colleges and universities once taught. The only > exceptions would be Pascal and BASIC, and they didn't generally teach > BASIC because it was unstructured and could lead to "spaghetti" code. > Unfortunately, Pascal back then was "impotent" or "neutered." (Hey, > you guys insist on using "carnal knowledge"...) Pascal simply couldn't > do any low-level stuff back then. I.e., there is an accepted ideology > in computer science (CS) departments as to what is an acceptable > programming language to be taught and what isn't. > >> "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory >> curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its >> very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new >> course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the >> sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." > > See, see, see what I mean! There it is. That's a (new) CS department > ideology. > > First it was "spaghetti" code, then it was "untamed pointers", and > now it's apparently "object-oriented programming", being "reserved" > for "advanced" students. It seems that all CS professors all hate the > widely accepted languages and their programming concepts. Just ask > Anton. He's teaching Forth now. That's like teaching Latin or Sumerian > in a world that speaks English and Chinese. It's insane. I'm wondering > if he's going to teach them how to patch concrete next. That's > probably a far more useful life skill for the majority of students ... > > > Rod Pemberton > CS, academia or otherwise, have got one thing right for educating students for a useful career; modularity & paralellism are becoming (actually, have been for some time) major issues in large scale software development. C is no longer fit for purpose.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 23:25 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhsgo3$q70$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #29333 |
Alex McDonald wrote:
> CS, academia or otherwise, have got one thing right for educating
> students for a useful career; modularity & paralellism are becoming
> (actually, have been for some time) major issues in large scale software
> development. C is no longer fit for purpose.
There's another important thing: A "language of the decade" lasts a decade.
Usually the next decade has another language of the decade. If you burn out
programmers quickly and let them drive taxi for the rest of their life,
teaching them the current language of the decade is sufficient. If you
think of teaching as long-term investment, teach them concepts, and a number
of very different languages so that they know that they don't know it all.
What quite a lot of professors dodge in the 101 course is the "understanding
the machine" part. One thing I hate about Java code (not Java itself) is
that the programmers don't understand the machine, and therefore write silly
code ("onion programming" - layers of layers of abstraction, needed to hide
the details they don't actually understand). Java itself has been created
by someone who certainly has a deep understanding of what the machine does,
and how it works, and this also explains why the early Java projects did run
on pretty weak hardware. The bloatware current Java programs are is not a
failure of the language, but a failure of teaching.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 23:48 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhsi3e$uj$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29334 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 23:25:23 +0200
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:
> Alex McDonald wrote:
> > CS, academia or otherwise, have got one thing right for educating
> > students for a useful career; modularity & paralellism are becoming
> > (actually, have been for some time) major issues in large scale
> > software development. C is no longer fit for purpose.
>
> There's another important thing: A "language of the decade" lasts a
> decade. Usually the next decade has another language of the decade.
> If you burn out programmers quickly and let them drive taxi for the
> rest of their life, teaching them the current language of the decade
> is sufficient. If you think of teaching as long-term investment,
> teach them concepts, and a number of very different languages so that
> they know that they don't know it all.
It is very good thing to solve same problem in several languages.
It really widens perspective of how problems are solved in most
natural way on each particular language.
>
> What quite a lot of professors dodge in the 101 course is the
> "understanding the machine" part.
Every programmer should try at least one assembler, I think.
With knowledge of assembler, knowing many other things
in order to solve real world problems is much easier
to understand.
Eg I first learned z80 assembler and when I first saw
C and Forth it was very easy to understand.
One thing I hate about Java code
> (not Java itself) is that the programmers don't understand the
> machine, and therefore write silly code ("onion programming" - layers
> of layers of abstraction, needed to hide the details they don't
> actually understand).
I don't agree here. It is actually OO that forces onion programming.
Layers of abstractions are there in design patterns:
wrapper, decorator, facade ... ;)
Java itself has been created by someone who
> certainly has a deep understanding of what the machine does, and how
> it works, and this also explains why the early Java projects did run
> on pretty weak hardware.
One thing that is needed in functional world, that is GC (lot of
closures and recursion), is not needed at all in OO world.
Languages that don't force GC (or minimize it's
use) will always perform better than languages that force usage of GC.
The bloatware current Java programs are is
> not a failure of the language, but a failure of teaching.
Well executing "hello world" in java maps several gigabytes of memory...
but implementation of Java is very good
--
Click OK to continue...
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 15:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xa9byp0gx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29335 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > One thing that is needed in functional world, that is GC (lot of > closures and recursion), is not needed at all in OO world. Eh? Java, Python, Ruby, and even Forth aren't particularly "functional", but benefit from GC. > Languages that don't force GC (or minimize it's use) will always > perform better than languages that force usage of GC. GC done properly seems to cause a fairly minor speed hit, and a more substantial memory footprint hit. That basically means you trade software development expenses for hardware resource expenses (you need a bigger computer to run the program). With today's hardware, the tradeoff generally looks good for GC. In the 1970's it may have been the other way around.
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 00:08 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhsj8j$uj$2@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29337 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:17:02 -0700 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > > One thing that is needed in functional world, that is GC (lot of > > closures and recursion), is not needed at all in OO world. > > Eh? Java, Python, Ruby, and even Forth aren't particularly > "functional", but benefit from GC. You don;t have to write free(p) but you have to write close(fd) ;) I didn't knew forth has GC? Started to learn about it after I first saw it in 1987 ;) > > > Languages that don't force GC (or minimize it's use) will always > > perform better than languages that force usage of GC. > > GC done properly seems to cause a fairly minor speed hit, and a more > substantial memory footprint hit. When allocations are small there is not much of a speed hit. Hit comes when programs allocate more memory as GC have to scan much wider area. That introduces unnecessary swapping and slowdowns and prevents scalability as nothing can run during scan period. When there is enough memory not big problem, but imagine half of program is swapped on disk and GC has to scan disk ;) That basically means you trade > software development expenses for hardware resource expenses (you > need a bigger computer to run the program). With today's hardware, > the tradeoff generally looks good for GC. In the 1970's it may have > been the other way around. Agreed. Todays hardware is very powerful that's why such things can exist in a first place ;) Hack my daughter's tablet is 2GB of ram 4 core CPU! -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 15:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x1txaoznp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29338 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > I didn't knew forth has GC? Started to learn about > it after I first saw it in 1987 ;) http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/garbage-collection.zip > Hit comes when programs allocate more memory as GC have to scan much > wider area.... nothing can run during scan period. It is not done that way any more in high performance systems.
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 00:29 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhskgu$uj$3@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29340 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:34:34 -0700 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > > I didn't knew forth has GC? Started to learn about > > it after I first saw it in 1987 ;) > > http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/garbage-collection.zip > > > Hit comes when programs allocate more memory as GC have to scan much > > wider area.... nothing can run during scan period. > > It is not done that way any more in high performance systems. How it is done, than? It surely cannot be done without another performance hit in this or other way. -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 16:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xob0edpv2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29342 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes:
>> > wider area.... nothing can run during scan period.
> How it is done, than? It surely cannot be done without another
> performance hit in this or other way.
1. Serious GC's usually work by copying live data to a new heap and then
switching, so there's no sweep phase that touches all the garbage.
2. The copy operation is done in fairly small chunks rather frequently,
and bigger chunks less often ("generational GC"). The small collections
are very fast and the bigger ones generally aren't noticible enough to
be a problem in non-realtime systems.
3. GC can be multithreaded so some parts of it run concurrently with the
application, again decreasing visible pauses.
4. Applications are usually multithreaded and it's sometimes possible to
let some application threads keep running while others are being GC'd.
That means the application never stops doing work for the user.
5. Computers today have enough memory that swapping is a sign of serious
breakage rather than normal operation.
Yes GC has overhead, but it can be spread across the program execution
enough that the 1980s complaint of long GC pauses is a non-issue for
most applications today.
Keep in mind also that the usual alternative to GC is copying the data
around much more in the application, instead of just passing pointers.
That is also overhead.
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 00:58 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhsm5v$uj$4@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29343 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 16:01:37 -0700
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes:
> >> > wider area.... nothing can run during scan period.
> > How it is done, than? It surely cannot be done without another
> > performance hit in this or other way.
>
> 1. Serious GC's usually work by copying live data to a new heap and
> then switching, so there's no sweep phase that touches all the
> garbage.
>
> 2. The copy operation is done in fairly small chunks rather
> frequently, and bigger chunks less often ("generational GC"). The
> small collections are very fast and the bigger ones generally aren't
> noticible enough to be a problem in non-realtime systems.
>
> 3. GC can be multithreaded so some parts of it run concurrently with
> the application, again decreasing visible pauses.
I think you don't know how exactly GC works. Sweep faze can
be done in parallel with program, no question, but scanning
part cannot. Problem is not sweep but scan.
>
> 4. Applications are usually multithreaded and it's sometimes possible
> to let some application threads keep running while others are being
> GC'd. That means the application never stops doing work for the user.
Impossible without knowing exactly what application does.
It also does not knows if memory is swapped or not.
During scan faze it cannot run in parallel with program.
Parallel GC is just multithreaded GC and that does not means
parallel with application.
>
> 5. Computers today have enough memory that swapping is a sign of
> serious breakage rather than normal operation.
That is dependent on programers. Who knows what is running
on particular server. Say there are plenty of VM's
under host OS. It is easy to imagine performance breakage
in such situation.
>
> Yes GC has overhead, but it can be spread across the program execution
> enough that the 1980s complaint of long GC pauses is a non-issue for
> most applications today.
>
> Keep in mind also that the usual alternative to GC is copying the data
> around much more in the application, instead of just passing pointers.
True, but it is negligible. Imagine what compacting GC has to do:
Scan for used references than copy whole heap than update
all references in program...
--
Click OK to continue...
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 16:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xzjjy5956.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29344 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > I think you don't know how exactly GC works. Sweep faze can > be done in parallel with program, no question, but scanning > part cannot. Problem is not sweep but scan. Oh ok, by scanning you mean what is called the mark phase in mark-sweep style collectors. Yes, both parts can be done concurrently with the application, e.g. "treadmill" GC. >> some application threads keep running while others are being GC'd. > Impossible without knowing exactly what application does. All that's needed is for the objects to not interfere, which is doable if the language is set up for that. Erlang works that way (user threads are completely isolated from each other, so there can be a separate GC for each thread), for example. > It also does not knows if memory is swapped or not. During scan faze > it cannot run in parallel with program. Parallel GC is just > multithreaded GC and that does not means parallel with application. Cheng's 2001 dissertation is pretty readable and the technology has improved since then too: http://reports-archive.adm.cs.cmu.edu/anon/2001/CMU-CS-01-174.pdf > That is dependent on programers. Who knows what is running > on particular server. Say there are plenty of VM's > under host OS. It is easy to imagine performance breakage > in such situation. Normally you wouldn't run a high-memory application in that sort of environment. Smaller gc'd apps in Python, Ruby, etc. run on those things just fine. And sure, servers can be underprovisioned, but that's just broken as stated. > True, but it is negligible. Imagine what compacting GC has to do: Scan > for used references than copy whole heap than update all references in > program... That's usually done incrementally as mentioned. I think it might be efficient for you to study the literature a bit before making further pronouncements.
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