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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #29282 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700 |
| Last post | 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 374 — 32 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
Epic Fail Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-04 12:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail forthisit@gmail.com - 2014-04-04 11:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-04 22:09 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:44 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 09:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 10:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-05 15:25 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:29 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 12:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 15:54 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-09 16:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 13:00 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 21:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 15:17 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 00:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-09 22:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 00:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-10 16:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:35 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-10 17:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 21:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-11 23:10 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:18 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:23 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-12 20:14 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 19:21 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:25 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 16:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 09:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-12 10:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 13:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 00:25 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 10:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-14 02:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 17:59 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 02:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 18:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 14:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 21:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 12:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:02 -0700
Automatic scoping of locals (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 03:04 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 21:42 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-11 16:13 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 22:15 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 16:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 18:42 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-13 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 04:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 11:56 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 14:53 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 07:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 21:21 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-15 04:07 -0500
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-14 09:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-14 22:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 04:10 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 02:40 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 06:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:20 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-15 12:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-15 20:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 23:50 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-15 21:31 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-16 14:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-16 06:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-19 17:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 00:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-16 22:45 -0400
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 13:07 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-23 20:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-23 14:41 -1000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-24 17:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-24 15:14 -0400
@ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:40 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 06:13 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 15:26 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 09:03 -0700
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:45 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 11:15 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:22 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:38 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 11:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 14:35 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 09:59 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:14 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:30 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:05 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:39 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 18:07 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 13:00 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 11:18 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:12 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 03:52 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 03:09 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 09:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 08:36 -1000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 10:21 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 15:41 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 12:26 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:17 +0200
Re: @ and optimization stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:21 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:20 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:02 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 20:55 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:28 -0500
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:31 +0000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:23 +0000
Re: @ and optimization hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:32 -0700
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 08:50 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-26 22:52 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 20:33 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-27 11:53 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 01:05 -0400
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 21:34 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 13:37 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 22:03 +0100
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:24 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:48 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:09 +0100
Re: @ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-24 19:17 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:27 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-25 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-26 14:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 15:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 09:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 10:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 05:06 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-26 03:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 14:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:58 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:46 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 00:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:17 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 13:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 09:11 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:45 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 21:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:31 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-27 13:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 22:19 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-14 22:02 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 18:57 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-15 05:05 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 22:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:34 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-14 13:22 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-14 11:59 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-17 16:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-17 15:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-17 23:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-18 04:38 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-18 09:17 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:44 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:41 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 16:55 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-18 19:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 12:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:36 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-20 08:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-21 10:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-21 19:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-22 20:47 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-19 11:34 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-19 16:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 12:38 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 12:11 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-21 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 04:58 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:05 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-20 19:47 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 05:03 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 11:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 08:28 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 15:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 13:23 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-22 19:19 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Todd Hughes <noemail@dontemailme.org> - 2014-04-10 11:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 06:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-10 15:50 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 11:02 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:31 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-11 03:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:08 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 17:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 18:59 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 19:11 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-11 12:05 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 22:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 20:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Epic Fail visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-04-11 14:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2014-04-12 01:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 16:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-04 23:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 16:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 06:37 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 01:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-04 17:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-05 02:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-04-04 17:46 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:59 -1000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-05 08:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-05 14:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-05 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 19:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 10:46 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 13:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 19:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 12:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-06 16:40 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-06 22:04 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 23:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 23:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:34 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:29 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:33 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 19:33 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 20:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:23 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 03:24 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:20 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 14:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 08:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 20:27 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 02:57 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:00 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 16:10 +0200
Re: Epic Fail m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-04-07 07:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-07 01:02 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:49 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 19:01 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:13 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 20:34 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:04 -0700
[OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 00:42 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:14 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:15 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:10 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:35 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:48 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-04-07 11:26 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-07 17:54 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 12:14 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 09:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 12:53 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 00:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-06 13:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 07:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:18 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 08:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 22:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-06 12:08 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 22:03 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-07 01:29 -0700
locals in nested definitions (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-07 11:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 14:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 21:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-07 19:33 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-08 09:07 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 12:35 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 16:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 16:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 23:41 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 22:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 10:43 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 07:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 08:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:02 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 23:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 15:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 17:46 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 01:06 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 02:56 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:24 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-09 02:22 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 17:07 +0300
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 03:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 07:17 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 03:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:45 -0700
Re: Epic Fail kerdezixe@gmail.com - 2014-04-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 11:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:46 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:13 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 02:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-04-29 20:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:09 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 09:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 11:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 17:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2014Apr7.194040@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #29286 |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>Anton Ertl uses Forth in his compiler course.
The compiler course uses C because it works with C-based tools. I
have been wondering whether we should switch to something else.
I have an elective course on stack-based languages where I teach Forth
and Postscript.
>Anton is now trying to teach Forth to beginners,
Trying? :-)
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2013: http://www.euroforth.org/ef13/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 00:52 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhva76$h7h$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #29388 |
Anton Ertl wrote: >>Anton is now trying to teach Forth to beginners, > > Trying? :-) According to my stats, the Austria users for Gforth on Android jumped from 8 to 58 in the last month. So we can say, the beginners are trying, too ;-). -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 16:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4ffa1dfd-1a64-4cc8-98d1-9ac680534c7f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29412 |
On Monday, April 7, 2014 11:52:22 PM UTC+1, Bernd Paysan wrote: > > According to my stats, the Austria users for Gforth on Android jumped from 8 > to 58 in the last month. So we can say, the beginners are trying, too ;-). > Does Android run GForth in a protected space, or is the entire system able to be clobbered by an errant command? (How many bricks may be the result of the enthusiasm? ;)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 06:37 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <lhvqt7$lid$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29413 |
I don't think there's cause to worry; unless gforth runs as "root", it can't do much damage. On 04/08/2014 02:13 AM, Assad Ebrahim wrote: > > Does Android run GForth in a protected space, or is the entire > system able to be clobbered by an errant command? > > (How many bricks may be the result of the enthusiasm? ;) >
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 01:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <li1voj$c08$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #29413 |
Assad Ebrahim wrote: > Does Android run GForth in a protected space, or is the entire > system able to be clobbered by an errant command? It's a normal app, it can read and write the SD card. If that breaks your phone, almost every app could do that. > (How many bricks may be the result of the enthusiasm? ;) Yours is still the only case I know, and you said it was a hardware damage, unrelated to Gforth. For some serious security related stuff (like net2o), I'll change the storage of the sources on the sdcard to the app's private hierarchy. But for development, that's the ideal place, because you can access it with a file browser and you don't have to root the phone. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 10:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5343cc8d$0$24945$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29412 |
In article <lhva76$h7h$1@online.de>, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: >Anton Ertl wrote: >>>Anton is now trying to teach Forth to beginners, >> >> Trying? :-) > >According to my stats, the Austria users for Gforth on Android jumped from 8 >to 58 in the last month. So we can say, the beginners are trying, too ;-). Looking around I see a lot of long time Forthers trying out Android gForth. > >-- >Bernd Paysan >"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" >http://bernd-paysan.de/ > -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-04 17:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <op.xdtaiqy96zenlw@localhost> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 13:26:04 -0400, Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> wrote: > Why did Forth fail so badly? > I don't know all the historical aspects of it. I can tell you that Forth had a few failures which received extremely negative press. I can tell you that Forth became known as being "write once" language, meaning it was too cryptic for anyone to figure out once coded. Yes, that's even in the context of the IOCCC contest for obfuscated C. Ironic? I can tell you that C is far more powerful and flexible in many ways, IMO obviously. Forth is very rudimentary by comparison. I can also tell you what I think are weaknesses in the language. Usually, these issues are dismissed by the experts here as trivial or unimportant. Unfortunately, that doesn't change people's perception. People complain for a reason. Only fixing the language issues as perceived by others changes people's perception. That's something the Forth community is unwilling to do. This alienates those who would consider using Forth. I.e., someone who likes their steak well done and not burnt, is not going to eat a steak seared on the outside and cooked rare on the inside even if the expertly trained classical chef believes that's the best method of preparation. They want their steak fixed the way they like it. > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind > boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" > because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite > usable and is *extremely* flexible. I don't think it's mind boggling. Sun was a hugely successful software company, worth billions of dollars, that produced Java at their expense, rapidly updated and fixed issues with the language, maintained and produced it for decades, and gave to the general public for free. It's much the same thing FSF does, except they aren't wealthy, and are dependent on a flawed ideology, and license which perpetuates robbery. It's also much the same thing that Microsoft does. MS first sells you an OS, then they provide rapid updates and fixes, maintain and produce the OS for decades, for free - after the initial expense. Other projects, like ANDF (Tendra C compiler), tend to come out of university settings where they turn the project over the public. However, no one is familiar or skilled enough with the code, or frequently lack the resources or time to use the code, so the project in reality was actually abandoned. The original creators, university students and professors move on to other projects. So, there is no expert human support to take the project forward. You can see this with most MIT or BSD licensed code. I.e., it would be best called dump-ware, software dumped into the public without any support. > It goes like this. If you program in Java, you can't fail. If you > program in Forth, you can't win. It does not matter how good or bad > you are. Would you consider the position of Greg or Chuck at this > point in time a win or a fail? > > The Wikipedia article on Java states that in 2014 Java is the most > popular programming language with 9 million developers. No. Quote: "... is one of the most popular ..." One, not *IS*. The first source they cite show it's the second most popular. The other source they cite is the well know TIOBE index. It shows Java is in a constant battle with C for first place, with Java taking the lead for some years with C for others. Of course, Java is derived from C. > How many developers do you think actually make money programming in > Forth? Probably about 9! > > I'm not trying to Flame or Troll. I'd just like to hear a really > good explanation of this. It makes me upset. The problem with the Forth community is that they have their heads buried in the sand, or hand over their ears or eyes or mouths, like those metaphorical monkeys. They typically take offense when I say that, but I'll explain it yet again. I wasn't and am not currently flaming or trolling then either, even though my responses have been taken that way and will likely be yet again. Many brilliant ideas simply fail. Period. End-of-story. It doesn't matter that they were or still are brilliant ideas. They failed for various reasons: too early, too late, failure to adapt, negative public perception, infighting, too much standardization, too little standardization, too open, too closed, lack of funding, lack of profit, no purpose, etc. Once an idea has failed, there is almost no coming back, no chance at a recovery. The world has moved on. However, the Forth community is like a cult. It keeps on insisting that Forth must succeed because Forth is great! So, Forth must be rewarded for it's greatness! Even you did this by saying Forth is so flexible and you're upset that it's not well used. It's like reading about a failed cult that just won't give up on their savior coming no matter how many times the predictions were wrong. Yet, if you don't see the Forth community as a cult, you should still realize that it is. The Forth community has a savior: Chuck Moore. Any time the Forth community is "wishing" or "praying" for something new, they begin by discussing Charles Moore and what he is or isn't doing today. Savior... Sometimes it's a disciple or missionary who spreads the gospel, e.g., Jeff Fox, Julian Noble, Ms. Rather, etc. See it yet? No? Brainwashed. > How bad did we fail? Well, out of the Billions and Billions of > cellphones which have ever been produced, not a single one has been > programmed in Forth or uses Forth as an operating system! 99.99% of > them are programmed in Java? Why? Free. Widely available. Permanence or long-lasting. Financially supported by a major corporation(s). Based off of C language so skilled programmers are readily available. Etc. > I mean I had a $15 cell phone. The > hardware is probably more powerful than my old Atari ST. It has a > faster processor and more RAM. There are only about 5 games for it, and > they are all programmed in Java. Truth be known, these games are so > slow as to be nearly unplayable. It would be undoable to put Llamatron > on the thing, not because of the small screen size, but because it just > couldn't use a Java library to push around a sufficient number of > sprites very well. I know that all of you I.T. people in here are just > going to say buy a more expensive phone, but that's not my point. > > It's not like Java is the [ideal] language for everything. FYI, idea -> ideal. Aren't all general-purpose languages ideal for everything? That's what makes them general purpose after all ... Some would say general purpose means they're weak in certain areas, but I would disagree with that. Remember, C and Forth are general purpose languages. Others argue that domain specific languages are the way to go. Of course, you must have that domain specific language available to use it. "Therein lies the rub." > It is C++ on top of a virtual machine. I think it's C not C++. > I probably would not recommend it for resource constrained embedded > systems. That's a common complaint of those who look at the memory footprint of a language like C versus Forth or other languages, instead of looking at the language functionality. You forgo so much functionality and available software by using a non-C derived language or not using C/C++. > But just like nobody every go fired for buying IBM, nobody ever go fired > for using Java. The internet is driving the distribution of online or cloud applications that execute just-in-time. Is Forth well suited for that? I don't think so. C isn't suited for that either. You have to compile it. Most users don't want to be bothered with compiling applications. They just want apps to work correctly. Even programmers just want applications to work correctly. I'm not about to spend my time without pay to fix Opera or Mozilla Firefox. If I've got a problem with them, it gets downgraded to an earlier version with pre-compiled binaries. I'm not building it from scratch to end up with it not compiling because GLIBC, or a half-dozen other libraries are incompatible versions. This happens *ALL* the time with Linux software packages distributed as source. I recently attempted to update one software package and had to download about fifteen different libraries and install them. Fortunately, they were pre-compiled with binaries. Even so, it still took almost and hour. > I mean even if I started a project trying to write an embedded system > on a resources constrained device, and I chose to do it in Java, no > matter what kind of train wreck I produced, I would probably not be > fired, but would be hired for the next job, even possibly to reproduce > the same results. At this point, most rational people would conclude that Forth is so far behind or rarely used that it's a bad choice, even if it truly was the correct choice from a technical perspective. I.e., most managers would fire or strongly consider firing you for using/chosing Forth over C, Java, etc. "What *is* he thinking? ... drinking?" They simply can't find anyone who want to kill their resume by programming in Forth. > How did we lose so badly? Hopefully, I've provided some non-cult insight to that above. Rod Pemberton
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 02:49 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhnjvc$5ha$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29287 |
On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 17:41:04 -0400 "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> wrote: > On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 13:26:04 -0400, Jason Damisch > <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > It is C++ on top of a virtual machine. > > I think it's C not C++. I actually looked at source code. JIT is written in C++, JNI bindings in C and everything else in Java. -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-04 17:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b1050ef1-5dc3-4bee-9948-913984da0d58@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:26:04 PM UTC+3, Jason Damisch wrote: > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind > boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" > because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite > usable and is *extremely* flexible. I have read that there are two hard things in programming. Cache invalidation and naming things. In Forth you name a lot of things and in collabrative development it is nightmare. To understand your coworkers code when only hint might be the name of the word. It is not very productive. One counter sympton is to have rather long i_module_some_job_parameters functions in C. Also the flexibility is another issue. When better and good developer work and better makes interesting, not easily understandable word it takes time to use, refactor or copy it. How about adding junior to this kind of development? A lot of time is used to even tell what words are used, what they mean and how project should be developed. In C there are usually some kind of documentation but in forth there is the code to read. > What is more religious? Using Forth or trying to slam the square peg of > the most popular single stack everything is a function everything is an > object programming language into the round hole of every computer problem > in creation with a jack hammer? Religion has nothing to do it as long as you use Emacs to write the code :) People want to use familiar things. If in one project provided some experience of jack hammer tool, then we know our jack hammer and then we use it, even normal screwdriver would do the job. With Forth it is always a bit of unknown territory in the beginning of new project even there are some libs to support development. That is unknown factor in management. No matter how good your designs are, the implementation goes different direction than planned and takes more time. One thing is how Forth reacts bugs. It crashes hard while Javascript says can't set property of undefined and continues like everything is working. Now marketing can sell something and there is money coming from broken webapp. So is Forth is different and that's why it sucks on the desks of those who make decisions. Best regards, Hannu Vuolasaho
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-04 21:59 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <55KdnZb6bppxKqLOnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29289 |
On 4/4/14 2:46 PM, Hannu Vuolasaho wrote: > On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:26:04 PM UTC+3, Jason Damisch wrote: > >> I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind >> boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" >> because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite >> usable and is *extremely* flexible. Java "won" because it was designed for a special purpose, and backed by a major organization pouring significant resources into that purpose. Moreover, it was an application domain that was exploding worldwide. Finally, it was grounded in existing technology and hence familiar to mainstream programmers. Forth was also designed for a special purpose: dedicated embedded system programming (although it has been used successfully in other areas). But no major organization backing, and idiosyncratic syntax. > I have read that there are two hard things in programming. Cache invalidation > and naming things. In Forth you name a lot of things and in collabrative > development it is nightmare. To understand your coworkers code when only hint > might be the name of the word. It is not very productive. One counter sympton > is to have rather long i_module_some_job_parameters functions in C. Having worked on and managed many team projects, some quite large, I can testify that that problem is more imagined than real, if the project is well-managed and the programmers willing to work within style guidelines (which all good professionals are). ... > With Forth it is always a bit of unknown territory in the beginning of new > project even there are some libs to support development. That is unknown > factor in management. No matter how good your designs are, the implementation > goes different direction than planned and takes more time. My experience (over 30 years using Forth) has been that using Forth in a project shortens the development time drastically compared to previous estimates based on other languages. > One thing is how Forth reacts bugs. It crashes hard while Javascript says > can't set property of undefined and continues like everything is working. > Now marketing can sell something and there is money coming from broken webapp. Much depends upon the particular environment. Java is designed for web-based, remote applications in which encountering an incompatibility must be responded to by a "soft fail". A Forth application can be made to respond that way, but in a low-level embedded controller the tradeoffs are different. In development, a cross-compiler can provide a lot of diagnostics after a crash, and in the field a restart is the most appropriate response. It's a different application domain with different requirements and expectations. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 08:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <533fc416$0$27156$e4fe514c@dreader35.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
In article <f357fc56-c996-4d72-a53d-194a13e276ec@googlegroups.com>, Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> wrote: >Why did Forth fail so badly? > >I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind >boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" >because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite >usable and is *extremely* flexible. The USA is a large failure. In 2014 it is estimated that less than 10% of the world population is living in the USA. (For those a bit dumb witted: spot the mistake.) > >Jason Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 14:45 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lhp1e9$1lf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29296 |
on 05/04/2014 09:51:33, wrote: > In article <f357fc56-c996-4d72-a53d-194a13e276ec@googlegroups.com>, > Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> wrote: >>Why did Forth fail so badly? >> >>I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind >>boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" >>because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite >>usable and is *extremely* flexible. > > The USA is a large failure. In 2014 it is estimated that less than > 10% of the world population is living in the USA. > > (For those a bit dumb witted: spot the mistake.) The US consumes 80% of the world's painkillers while suffering 0.08% of the world's pain. (Somehow, measuring success or failure always boils down to a few key figures, most of them ridiculous in their application to the argument.) > >> >>Jason > > Groetjes Albert
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 16:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xfvlrfkjv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> writes: > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be > mind boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth > Sucks" because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is > still quite usable and is *extremely* flexible. People want two things from a language: 1) Given a blank screen and a problem to solve, they want to be able to bang out a solution quickly. 2) Given a large existing program and a bug report (that might be an enhancement request), they again want to be able to bang out a solution quickly, WITHOUT requiring having the existing codebase in their head before they start. Most Forth success stories I've heard are about desire #1. Those kinds of successes are of course perfectly great. It seems to me that Forth was designed for #1 but has various aspects (lack of a type system, roll-your-own everything) that aren't so great for #2. Java is designed mostly around desire #2. In the 1990's-and-later world of complex software, maintaining code is a bigger task than initially writing it. Java isn't so good at desire #1, but that is acceptable for many projects where the code is expected to stay around for a long time. I don't hear many Forth stories about successes in area #2. Maybe they exist, but are not publicized outside the organizations doing the work. I don't know.
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| From | hughaguilar96@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-05 19:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <228fb0b6-f8af-4fd5-800d-b84a91d8aaa7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29305 |
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> writes: > > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be > > mind boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth > > Sucks" because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is > > still quite usable and is *extremely* flexible. > > People want two things from a language: The "people" that you are talking about are professionals, not professors --- there is a big difference. In the old days, Pascal was the standard language taught in college. A problem with Pascal however, is that each programmer on a multi-user computer doesn't get his own "sandbox." This is a big problem because the students tend to write buggy programs that can bring the whole system down. Also, the smarter ones tend to write programs that snoop into other users' space --- definitely a problem if the teacher has his stuff (like the homework answers, or the upcoming exam) on the same computer that the students are using. I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside of the sandbox. The colleges didn't care that Java is a bad language, because whatever the colleges choose is "good" by definition, and anybody who criticizes it gets an 'F' --- so if the college says that Java is good, then every graduate will believe in his stomach (if not in his heart) that Java is good --- and the critics of Java will have all switched over to mechanical-engineering where the distinction between good and bad is much more objective. I think that it is possible to make a secure Forth system. Doing so never occurred to me prior to reading about Java though, and by that time it was too late to compete with Java. I will make my language secure --- it is ITC, so doing so shouldn't be too difficult --- security might be a selling point for some.
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| From | Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 10:46 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ke82k9lcll2plff5m82ohh1rt2ktmv63n0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #29309 |
On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT), hughaguilar96@yahoo.com wrote: >On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > >I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside of the sandbox. I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in introductory courses. Java was competing with C. For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer Science 101. But C has those pesky pointers. Which means students have to understand how the machine works: memory, addresses, pointers, dereferencing, double pointers. And you have to remember to free your memory. Java got rid of pointers and got rid of memory management. Now Professor could teach Computer Science 101 a little more like BASIC ---just programming --- instead of having his students have to understand how the machine works. CS 101 got a whole lot easier to teach (with fewer complaints from students). But the your average young programmer is now a lot more insulated from the machine. - Assad
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 13:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhrda6$q8$3@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29318 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 10:46:49 +0100 Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> wrote: > On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 19:22:09 -0700 (PDT), hughaguilar96@yahoo.com > wrote: > >On Saturday, April 5, 2014 4:01:08 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > > > >I think that the reason why Java replaced Pascal as the standard > >language taught in college, was because of its much-touted security > >features --- buggy or malicious programs can't wreak havoc outside > >of the sandbox. > > I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in > introductory courses. > > Java was competing with C. Java was built on C++. > > For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer > Science 101. > > But C has those pesky pointers. Which means students have to > understand how the machine works: memory, addresses, pointers, > dereferencing, double pointers. And you have to remember to free your > memory. > > Java got rid of pointers and got rid of memory management. Java got rid of almost everything of C++ and make object orientation as a must. -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 19:58 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <hi83k9lqvhmsl5t0bs3dpnlmqihus92agi@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #29319 |
On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 13:20:38 +0200, Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> wrote: > >On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 10:46:49 +0100 >Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> wrote: > >> I don't think Java was competing with Pascal for airtime in >> introductory courses. Java was competing with C. > >Java was built on C++. > >> >> For a while C was the standard language being taught in Computer >> Science 101. >> >> But C has those pesky pointers. Which means students have to >> understand how the machine works: memory, addresses, pointers, >> dereferencing, double pointers. And you have to remember to free your >> memory. >> >> Java got rid of pointers and got rid of memory management. > >Java got rid of almost everything of C++ and make object orientation >as a must. You're right, good point. I focused on C because C++ is almost never taught as a first course. However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. But that gets ugly real fast since the object oriententation in C++ is complicated by its being built on top of C -- with C poking through. Templates are also complicated. C++ may be a powerful language, but it is not simple and it is not 'beautiful' in the sense of either simplicity or elegance. So, yes, I think that aspect of Java made it even more appealing to academia. It took care of the 'problems' of the first *two* intro courses, not just the first one ;) - Assad
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 12:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x7g72w93a.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29329 |
Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> writes: > However, when a pair of courses are offered (e.g. CS 101 and 102), C > was often the language of the first course, and then C++ was > introduced in the second to set the scene for object oriented design. I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except maybe in some context like embedded development. The MIT SICP (Scheme-based) curriculum was popular in the 1980's-1990's and now MIT is using Python while CMU is using ML. The ML approach sounded like it was working well: https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic."
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| From | "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 16:40 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <op.xdww1oa26zenlw@localhost> |
| In reply to | #29330 |
On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:28:57 -0400, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except > maybe in some context like embedded development. There is a truly incredulous "Really?" waiting for you sir! Do you remember the other languages that were taught at colleges and universities 20 to 30 years ago? e.g., FORTRAN, COBOL, mainframe assembly, ... I don't know how C could be *anywhere* near as bad a choice as the other horrid languages colleges and universities once taught. The only exceptions would be Pascal and BASIC, and they didn't generally teach BASIC because it was unstructured and could lead to "spaghetti" code. Unfortunately, Pascal back then was "impotent" or "neutered." (Hey, you guys insist on using "carnal knowledge"...) Pascal simply couldn't do any low-level stuff back then. I.e., there is an accepted ideology in computer science (CS) departments as to what is an acceptable programming language to be taught and what isn't. > "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory > curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its > very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new > course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the > sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." See, see, see what I mean! There it is. That's a (new) CS department ideology. First it was "spaghetti" code, then it was "untamed pointers", and now it's apparently "object-oriented programming", being "reserved" for "advanced" students. It seems that all CS professors all hate the widely accepted languages and their programming concepts. Just ask Anton. He's teaching Forth now. That's like teaching Latin or Sumerian in a world that speaks English and Chinese. It's insane. I'm wondering if he's going to teach them how to patch concrete next. That's probably a far more useful life skill for the majority of students ... Rod Pemberton
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| From | "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-06 22:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lhsfgg$kvf$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29332 |
on 06/04/2014 21:40:27, "Rod Pemberton" wrote: > On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:28:57 -0400, Paul Rubin > <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > >> I'm terrified to learn that C or C++ was ever used in academia except >> maybe in some context like embedded development. > > There is a truly incredulous "Really?" waiting for you sir! > > Do you remember the other languages that were taught at colleges and > universities 20 to 30 years ago? e.g., FORTRAN, COBOL, mainframe > assembly, ... > > I don't know how C could be *anywhere* near as bad a choice as the > other horrid languages colleges and universities once taught. The only > exceptions would be Pascal and BASIC, and they didn't generally teach > BASIC because it was unstructured and could lead to "spaghetti" code. > Unfortunately, Pascal back then was "impotent" or "neutered." (Hey, > you guys insist on using "carnal knowledge"...) Pascal simply couldn't > do any low-level stuff back then. I.e., there is an accepted ideology > in computer science (CS) departments as to what is an acceptable > programming language to be taught and what isn't. > >> "Object-oriented programming is eliminated from the introductory >> curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its >> very nature, and hence unsuitable for our purposes. A proposed new >> course on object-oriented design methodology will be offered at the >> sophomore level for those students who wish to study this topic." > > See, see, see what I mean! There it is. That's a (new) CS department > ideology. > > First it was "spaghetti" code, then it was "untamed pointers", and > now it's apparently "object-oriented programming", being "reserved" > for "advanced" students. It seems that all CS professors all hate the > widely accepted languages and their programming concepts. Just ask > Anton. He's teaching Forth now. That's like teaching Latin or Sumerian > in a world that speaks English and Chinese. It's insane. I'm wondering > if he's going to teach them how to patch concrete next. That's > probably a far more useful life skill for the majority of students ... > > > Rod Pemberton > CS, academia or otherwise, have got one thing right for educating students for a useful career; modularity & paralellism are becoming (actually, have been for some time) major issues in large scale software development. C is no longer fit for purpose.
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