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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #28486 > unrolled thread
| Started by | akk <akk@nospam.org> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-02-16 19:21 +0100 |
| Last post | 2014-02-18 13:17 +0000 |
| Articles | 3 on this page of 43 — 16 participants |
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Forth in oblivion akk <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-16 19:21 +0100
Re: Forth in oblivion Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-16 12:03 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-02-16 15:47 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2014-03-05 15:25 +0000
Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 00:06 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-18 06:15 -0500
Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 09:52 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-18 18:16 -0500
Re: Forth in oblivion visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-02-18 19:05 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-02-19 09:47 +0100
Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-19 04:08 -0600
Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-19 05:39 -0500
Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-19 04:09 -0600
Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-19 06:18 -0500
Re: Forth in oblivion Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-02-19 03:35 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-02-20 10:06 -0600
Re: Forth in oblivion "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <notagoodone@invalid.org.invalid> - 2014-02-23 21:17 +0000
Re: Forth in oblivion "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-02-24 01:18 -0500
Re: Forth in oblivion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-02-23 21:44 -1000
Re: Forth in oblivion hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-02 04:36 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 14:30 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 15:34 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-03 16:53 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 17:10 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-04 10:28 +0000
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-03 21:05 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-03 18:42 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-03-03 23:54 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-04 13:49 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 17:23 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-05 04:02 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-05 19:01 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-06 02:17 +0000
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-06 23:48 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-07 17:23 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] hostilefork@gmail.com - 2014-03-08 01:37 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-08 20:32 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-03-04 22:15 -0800
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 16:41 -0500
Re: Rebol, Red, Haxe languages, was [Re: Forth in oblivion] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-04 17:06 -0500
Re: Forth in oblivion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-03-05 11:11 -0600
Re: Forth in oblivion hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-07 21:14 -0800
Re: Forth in oblivion albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-02-18 13:17 +0000
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-03-05 11:11 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <Y_2dnfvGi7Apx4rOnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #28860 |
hostilefork@gmail.com wrote: > Hello comp.lang.forth (I've never posted here before!) Hi! > So rather than be in oblivion, I'm wondering if we can team up and > share knowledge? We are still at the design input phase for Rebol > v.3 (open source Apache2 as of 12-Dec-2012!) and Red has been BSD > since the beginning. So getting input from Forth users would be > great for us. We're a friendly and thriving community on > StackOverflow chat, and there's a good vibe to it: > > http://rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq > > So as the kids on the playground might say: can you and I be > friends? :-) Or even if we have to stay on separate paths, I'd like > to know *why*. What's the missing feature that our Forth-inspired > language didn't take, which is leading to your lack of satisfaction? > If this isn't the right place or people to ask that question, where > should I be taking it? All IMO: Forth is a very particular language with a very particular design. Every language is to some extent a compromise, and every successful language has its own sweet spot. Forth's is that it combines considerable expressive power with interactivity, extensibility, and, crucially, simplicity. This simplicity isn't just on the surface, it goes very deep: it is possible to build tiny (by modern standards) implementations of Forth, and unlike most other languages, its users tend to understand its implementation. In that sense, Forth is the exact opposite of the "high priesthood" of many other languages. Unlike most languages with interactive interpreters, Forth is used for real-time control. This has some interesting consequences: for example, there can be no pauses for garbage collection. [Of course, there may be complex Forths, or non-real-time Forths, or whatever; but this is how Forth has been used, and what it was designed for.) So, that's Forth: where does Rebol fit in? Andrew.
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| From | hughaguilar96@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-03-07 21:14 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <8ec40779-bff9-43b0-a146-2039afc49b08@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #28860 |
On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:36:40 AM UTC-7, hosti...@gmail.com wrote: > I think all the not-on-the-Tiobe-index languages share a common pain of trying to explain their value. Kids today (and even some adults) don't understand the Catch-22 of "your language isn't popular, so I won't take any time to look at it". (If regardless of merit, how can anything new get popular, if people only look at things that are built on infrastructure that is already popular?) This is a common problem everywhere, and not just in programming. Banks only lend money for a business if the borrower can show examples of that kind of business being successful already, which results in a lot of look-alike businesses, often next-door to each other. This is why I was unimpressed by Ayn Rand's "Objectivism" --- an objective comparison only works if the observer already knows what his criteria is. John Galt's engine development would never have gotten financing because he wouldn't have been able to compare it to anything in existence and show that it was better, because it was something completely new. She got around this problem in the book by having him just build the engine in his spare time using spare parts --- but zero-budget development isn't the way that innovations get implemented in the real-world (not even at Testra, although they were pretty close). This is the same objection I have to Gérard Debreu and his general-equilibrium theory, which is ironic because Ayn Rand is considered libertarian and Debreu is considered communist. This is described in the old joke about how, if Edison had worked under our modern way of thinking, he wouldn't have invented the light-bulb --- he would have invented a bigger candle. > This inspired me to do some research. I'd like to get an answer to the question of: "For the dedicated members of the Forth community, what needs is Forth meeting that Rebol (today) and Red (tomorrow) can't meet?" Let me turn around the question: "For the dedicated members of the Forth community, what needs is Forth failing to meet that Forth desperately needs that all modern languages do meet?" The answer for me is: quotations (the quotation obviously needs to have access to the creator function's local variables). I have abandoned Forth-200x because of their failure to meet this need (and because Payson chose to fake it, rather that face the problem, and I just don't associate with such dishonest people) --- I am writing my own language primarily to meet this one need. Does Red have quotations or closures or anything similar?
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-02-18 13:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <53035d56$0$25275$e4fe514c@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #28486 |
In article <53010196$0$6654$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net>, akk <akk@nospam.org> wrote: >Now Forth has even dropped completely from tiobe index: >http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html > >Comes from beating this horse dead, instead of feeding it with >innovation... I see that Factor is in the list of languages that exist, and apparently Forth doesn't exist. Tell you what? This only serves to totally destroy Tiobe's credibility to me. Groetjes Albert > -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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