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A friendly tech-forum

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  A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 11:09 +0200
    Re: A friendly tech-forum mentificium@gmail.com - 2015-12-06 06:05 -0800
      Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 16:20 +0200
    A friendly tech-forum foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-12-06 06:17 -0800
      Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-06 16:24 +0200
    Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-06 22:57 -0500
      Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 06:58 +0200
        Re: A friendly tech-forum JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-12-07 08:34 -0800
          Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 19:40 +0200
            Re: A friendly tech-forum hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-09 18:31 -0800
          Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 12:48 -0500
        Re: A friendly tech-forum Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-12-07 18:44 +0100
          Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 12:56 -0500
            Re: A friendly tech-forum Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-12-07 19:19 +0100
              Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-08 02:02 -0500
            Re: A friendly tech-forum JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-12-07 10:26 -0800
              Re: A friendly tech-forum jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 11:19 -0800
              Re: A friendly tech-forum Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-12-07 23:41 +0100
                Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-08 02:36 -0500
                Re: A friendly tech-forum "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-12-13 14:14 +1100
                  Re: A friendly tech-forum hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-12-12 20:59 -0800
                    Re: A friendly tech-forum "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-12-15 23:52 +1100
                      Re: A friendly tech-forum "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-12-15 08:16 -1000
                        Re: A friendly tech-forum "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-12-16 12:55 +1100
            Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 21:49 +0200
              Re: A friendly tech-forum jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 18:53 -0800
                Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 07:09 +0200
                  Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-08 02:52 -0500
              Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-08 03:00 -0500
                Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 10:22 +0200
                  Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 13:15 -0500
              Re: A friendly tech-forum visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-12-08 19:15 -0800
                Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 08:12 +0200
                  Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 01:50 -0500
                  Re: A friendly tech-forum mhx@iae.nl - 2015-12-08 23:40 -0800
                    Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-09 10:01 +0200
                    Re: A friendly tech-forum Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2015-12-09 11:15 +0000
          Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-07 21:48 +0200
          Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-08 01:53 -0500
        Re: A friendly tech-forum "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-12-08 01:50 -0500
          Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 08:55 +0200
          Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 01:57 -0500
            Re: A friendly tech-forum Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-12-08 20:32 +0100
              Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-08 15:27 -0500
        Re: A friendly tech-forum Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 04:24 -0800
        Re: A friendly tech-forum Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-12-10 04:52 -0800
          Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 01:31 -0500
            Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 10:05 +0200
              Re: A friendly tech-forum Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 04:59 -0800
              Re: A friendly tech-forum krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-12-11 05:32 -0800
                Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 18:26 +0200
                  Re: A friendly tech-forum krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-12-12 08:46 -0800
                    Re: A friendly tech-forum Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 19:00 +0200
              Re: A friendly tech-forum rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 15:13 -0500

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#44102 — A friendly tech-forum

I and a couple other people decided we were tired of dealing with the
hostile environments on various tech forums.  So we started up a new one:

https://codethoughts.org/index.php

It's free.  It's friendly.

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#44103

On Sunday, December 6, 2015 at 1:09:20 AM UTC-8, Ron Aaron wrote:
> I and a couple other people decided we were tired of dealing with the
> hostile environments on various tech forums.  So we started up a new one:
> 
> https://codethoughts.org/index.php
> 
> It's free.  It's friendly.

In remembrance of the Chinese students who thought they 
were merely advancing some ideas about democracy, may we 
use the friendly forum to correct some problems in Peking? 

Remember Tiananmen Massacre 

25071 94761 40175 50190 42307 54386 16536 
65361 87771 59802 35171 28159 76604 28747 
93005 59366 06976 30670 87663 47042 25764 
14735 57790 86150 24848 45066 39372 81266 

Overthrow Chinese Government << http://ai.neocities.org/GIX.html 
-- 
Major goal in life: Trigger a Technological Singularity; 
Minor goal: Overthrow the unelected government of China; 
Minor goal: Win a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine; 
Minor goal: [X] Reunification of East and West Germany. 

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#44105

On 06/12/2015 16:05, mentificium@gmail.com wrote:

> In remembrance of the Chinese students who thought they 
> were merely advancing some ideas about democracy, may we 
> use the friendly forum to correct some problems in Peking? 

No. Politics is specifically excluded as a discussion topic.  As are a
few other things, which if you read the "Policies" you'll know.

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#44104

Looks very good Ron.  Pardon my marketing bias, but how are you promoting it?

BF

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#44106

On 06/12/2015 16:17, foxaudioresearch@gmail.com wrote:
> Looks very good Ron.  Pardon my marketing bias, but how are you promoting it?

Thanks -

Well, we just started to roll it out publicly.  No promotion per se,
just mentioning it here and there.  Do you have ideas on how to promote
it?  (you can mail me...)

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#44118

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 04:09:15 -0500, Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> wrote:

> I and a couple other people decided we were tired of dealing with the
> hostile environments on various tech forums.  So we started up a new one:
>
> [link]
>
> It's free.  It's friendly.

While I'm sure your purpose is noble, every sword has two edges.
What some view as a being polite and troll free, others may
view as discriminatory, exclusionary, and pro-censorship.  You
can't have both.  If someone has the right to ban you from speaking
freely, should they have ever been granted the right to converse
with you in the first place?  Birds of a feather flock together ...
Over time exclusionary environments shift toward the majority belief
of those in control and discriminate against the minority.  This
problem affects all forums with logins and walled-off fiefdoms
like Facebook.  Freedom is founded upon dissenting voices,
openness, optional anonymity, and a willingness to listen others
out of respect.  Many of the world's most brilliant minds have
said and done things which are or once were hated.


Rod Pemberton


-- 
How to kill Facebook.  Tell a bunch of fourth graders that
only old people use Facebook.  Wait eight years.

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#44120

On 07/12/2015 05:57, Rod Pemberton wrote:

> While I'm sure your purpose is noble, every sword has two edges.
> What some view as a being polite and troll free, others may
> view as discriminatory, exclusionary, and pro-censorship.  You
> can't have both. 

Yes you can.  A polite society is not necessarily discriminatory, it is
one in which individuals engage their brains before opening their
mouths.  I think a technical forum where ad-hominem attacks are not
permitted is something that is needed (and so far, the feedback I've
received agrees).  Similarly, there's no reason or call for divisive
off-topic discussions there.  That's what the cesspool called Reddit is for.

Look at "Stack Overflow" and "Slashdot" as examples of places where
derogatory language towards the perceived "newbie" is rampant, where
people are told their questions are stupid etc. etc... and think how
many of those people who've been kicked in the teeth will now avoid
entering technological fields (or will have the somewhat justified
notion that many geeks are immature adolescents).

If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
be left alone. You're free to ask newbie questions, or advertise your
wares, or discuss any technical subject - as long as you're polite and
respectful of others.  Leave off your discussions of politics, macrame
or culinary achievements.

If that's too onerous, don't join.

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#44121

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 4:58:52 AM UTC, Ron Aaron wrote:
> On 07/12/2015 05:57, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> 
> > While I'm sure your purpose is noble, every sword has two edges.
> > What some view as a being polite and troll free, others may
> > view as discriminatory, exclusionary, and pro-censorship.  You
> > can't have both. 
> 
> Yes you can.  A polite society is not necessarily discriminatory, it is
> one in which individuals engage their brains before opening their
> mouths.  I think a technical forum where ad-hominem attacks are not
> permitted is something that is needed (and so far, the feedback I've
> received agrees).  Similarly, there's no reason or call for divisive
> off-topic discussions there.  That's what the cesspool called Reddit is for.
> 
> Look at "Stack Overflow" and "Slashdot" as examples of places where
> derogatory language towards the perceived "newbie" is rampant, where
> people are told their questions are stupid etc. etc... and think how
> many of those people who've been kicked in the teeth will now avoid
> entering technological fields (or will have the somewhat justified
> notion that many geeks are immature adolescents).
> 
> If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
> they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
> be left alone. You're free to ask newbie questions, or advertise your
> wares, or discuss any technical subject - as long as you're polite and
> respectful of others.  Leave off your discussions of politics, macrame
> or culinary achievements.
> 
> If that's too onerous, don't join.

Congratulations. Will join soon. 
I had hoped to find this here on CLF when I came as a newbee, but too often it gets personal rather than technical. These should open their own group.
You will not have to advertise much - the message is getting around already. Freedom includes as well, that a group defines who comes to the party - else has to stay out. Or open an own group.
... and I do like the example of a sword - my knives all cut on one side only - sufficient as a tool - I do not need a weapon.

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#44123

On 07/12/2015 18:34, JUERGEN wrote:

> 
> Congratulations. Will join soon. 

Thanks, look forward to your participation.

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#44166

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 10:40:19 AM UTC-7, Ron Aaron wrote:
> On 07/12/2015 18:34, JUERGEN wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Congratulations. Will join soon. 
> 
> Thanks, look forward to your participation.

Ron is welcoming sales-people to his forum --- therefore his forum will contain only advertisements, with zero information content --- note that Juergen Pintaske is employed doing sales for MPE, and MPE makes its money doing "joint projects" with Forth Inc., and Juergen's contribution at EuroForth was to suggest that Leon Wagner and Stephen Pelc take turns every other year at being the "benevolent dictator" for Forth programmers such as myself.

My objection to Elizabeth Rather is that she declared ANS-Forth to be the Standard (with a capital 'S') --- if she was just selling SwiftForth then I wouldn't care, as everybody has a right to sell their product even if it has such low quality as to be useless --- however, declaring oneself to be the Standard setter, and declaring everybody else to be non-standard, is the ultimate form of trolling (certainly a bold marketing strategy for Forth Inc., but it degrades the Forth community who are actually writing software).

Ultimately, it is all about money.

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#44125

On 12/7/2015 11:34 AM, JUERGEN wrote:
> On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 4:58:52 AM UTC, Ron Aaron wrote:
>> On 07/12/2015 05:57, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>> While I'm sure your purpose is noble, every sword has two edges.
>>> What some view as a being polite and troll free, others may
>>> view as discriminatory, exclusionary, and pro-censorship.  You
>>> can't have both.
>>
>> Yes you can.  A polite society is not necessarily discriminatory, it is
>> one in which individuals engage their brains before opening their
>> mouths.  I think a technical forum where ad-hominem attacks are not
>> permitted is something that is needed (and so far, the feedback I've
>> received agrees).  Similarly, there's no reason or call for divisive
>> off-topic discussions there.  That's what the cesspool called Reddit is for.
>>
>> Look at "Stack Overflow" and "Slashdot" as examples of places where
>> derogatory language towards the perceived "newbie" is rampant, where
>> people are told their questions are stupid etc. etc... and think how
>> many of those people who've been kicked in the teeth will now avoid
>> entering technological fields (or will have the somewhat justified
>> notion that many geeks are immature adolescents).
>>
>> If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
>> they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
>> be left alone. You're free to ask newbie questions, or advertise your
>> wares, or discuss any technical subject - as long as you're polite and
>> respectful of others.  Leave off your discussions of politics, macrame
>> or culinary achievements.
>>
>> If that's too onerous, don't join.
>
> Congratulations. Will join soon.
> I had hoped to find this here on CLF when I came as a newbee, but too often it gets personal rather than technical. These should open their own group.
> You will not have to advertise much - the message is getting around already. Freedom includes as well, that a group defines who comes to the party - else has to stay out. Or open an own group.
> .... and I do like the example of a sword - my knives all cut on one side only - sufficient as a tool - I do not need a weapon.

It is *easy* to avoid the "personal" stuff here.  Don't start anything 
and when others do, don't reply!  No one has ever been forced at 
gunpoint to participate in any exchange on usenet, vitriolic or otherwise.

There are some people here who I generally don't reply to.  It's just 
not productive.

-- 

Rick

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#44124

Ron Aaron wrote:
> If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
> they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
> be left alone.

Haha.  That's precisely what he's complaining about: as he is a troll, he is 
discriminated ;-).  Trolls need safe spaces under their bridges, where they 
must be allowed to insult and diffame, which is their natural behavior.  Or 
why do you want to oppress minorities?

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#44126

On 12/7/2015 12:44 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Ron Aaron wrote:
>> If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
>> they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
>> be left alone.
>
> Haha.  That's precisely what he's complaining about: as he is a troll, he is
> discriminated ;-).  Trolls need safe spaces under their bridges, where they
> must be allowed to insult and diffame, which is their natural behavior.  Or
> why do you want to oppress minorities?

Not trying to start anything here, but depending on the judgement of the 
moderators, many of your posts would be restricted.  In fact the overall 
posting style of this group would not be tolerated at many moderated 
forums.

"Troll" is in the eye of the beholder.

I remember a group I was kicked out of.  I discovered it was moderated 
by posting a link to a closely related group and the message never 
showed up.  I reposted and got a reply from the group owner saying they 
didn't allow the "endorsement" of other groups.  I made a post to ask 
the boundaries of the restrictions and was booted because I called it a 
restricted group and he thought my using that term was "trolling"!  lol 
  How can you know what is acceptable and what is not if you don't 
ask???!!!  I certainly didn't know I was "endorsing" anything.

So this new forum may be great, but what exactly is "troll" behavior? 
Is it like pornography and the Supreme Court of the US, "I know it when 
I see it"?

-- 

Rick

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#44128

rickman wrote:
> So this new forum may be great, but what exactly is "troll" behavior?
> Is it like pornography and the Supreme Court of the US, "I know it when
> I see it"?

Trolls are provoking, and not contributing to factual discussion.  As such, 
they drag the hole discussion down, as people respond to their provocation.  
Trolls usually try to provoke under the level of moderation, and hope that 
the provoked response is above that level so that they can finger-point to 
the insulted.

It is not clear whether the trolls are doing that intentional or as 
byproduct of personal disorders or general incompetence; if the latter is 
the case, the troll will not realize what he's doing, and wonder why he 
provoked angry responses.  Some people do trolling as game.  And some have 
other disorders that spoil the discission, but don't fit with that 
description.

Hugh for example is not a troll by the usual definition: He does contribute 
to technical discussion, and on the other hand, when he provokes, he's 
clearly way above the level of any moderation.  However, he certainly 
contributes to the overall unfriendly climate here.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#44140

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 13:19:06 -0500, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:

> rickman wrote:

>> So this new forum may be great, but what exactly is "troll" behavior?
>> Is it like pornography and the Supreme Court of the US, "I know it
>> when I see it"?
>
> Trolls are provoking, and not contributing to factual discussion.

Really? ...

How many times have you discussed your anti-American views?
How many times have you posted about revisionist world history?
How many times have you brought up copyright laws?
How many times have you discussed your own microprocessor designs?
How many times have you discussed China issues?
etc.

How many times has 'rickman' posted about microprocessors?
How many times has 'rickman' posted about Forth? (0)
How many times has 'rickman' called someone a troll? (many)

How many times has Hugh ranted about Mrs. Rather etc? (god-like)


Rod Pemberton


-- 
How to kill Facebook.  Tell a bunch of fourth graders that
only old people use Facebook.  Wait eight years.

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#44129

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 5:56:31 PM UTC, rickman wrote:
> On 12/7/2015 12:44 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> > Ron Aaron wrote:
> >> If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
> >> they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
> >> be left alone.
> >
> > Haha.  That's precisely what he's complaining about: as he is a troll, he is
> > discriminated ;-).  Trolls need safe spaces under their bridges, where they
> > must be allowed to insult and diffame, which is their natural behavior.  Or
> > why do you want to oppress minorities?
> 
> Not trying to start anything here, but depending on the judgement of the 
> moderators, many of your posts would be restricted.  In fact the overall 
> posting style of this group would not be tolerated at many moderated 
> forums.
> 
> "Troll" is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> I remember a group I was kicked out of.  I discovered it was moderated 
> by posting a link to a closely related group and the message never 
> showed up.  I reposted and got a reply from the group owner saying they 
> didn't allow the "endorsement" of other groups.  I made a post to ask 
> the boundaries of the restrictions and was booted because I called it a 
> restricted group and he thought my using that term was "trolling"!  lol 
>   How can you know what is acceptable and what is not if you don't 
> ask???!!!  I certainly didn't know I was "endorsing" anything.
> 
> So this new forum may be great, but what exactly is "troll" behavior? 
> Is it like pornography and the Supreme Court of the US, "I know it when 
> I see it"?
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick

Rick I am surprised to hear this - not much different to your job, if somebody misbehaves, a warning, at some point of repetition - fired. What is the problem. The group rules define who they want to liaise with - this is what the freedom of choice of the group is. Why are these closed groups started - you want to enjoy the other members. And avoid the abuse happening here.

I remember the abuse I got when I suggested to give more power to the vendors in the Standards Group, to bring the language forward. Several recent events support my suggestion. 

The vendors I can trust: their motive is straight forward - to serve the customers  and to make money - their salary. So they will make sure the product is what their customers want. The motives of others in the Standards group i cannot judge, and they are the majority, hmmm
In contrast the vendors represent the silent majority, definitely larger - the customers who give feedback - to the standards group or to the vendors?
It was an interesting experience to participate in the standards meeting as a guest, and it was very positive.

A unique experience as is documented elsewhere - he will make sure that I cannot participate in such a meeting again - this is what I call democracy.
In a closed group this would not happen. Or at least the rules would be clearer.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#44130

On Monday, 7 December 2015 18:26:52 UTC, JUERGEN  wrote:
> On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 5:56:31 PM UTC, rickman wrote:
> > On 12/7/2015 12:44 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> > > Ron Aaron wrote:
> > >> If you take a look at the policies of our forum, I think you'll see
> > >> they're not particularly restrictive.  Just don't be a troll, and you'll
> > >> be left alone.
> > >
> > > Haha.  That's precisely what he's complaining about: as he is a troll, he is
> > > discriminated ;-).  Trolls need safe spaces under their bridges, where they
> > > must be allowed to insult and diffame, which is their natural behavior.  Or
> > > why do you want to oppress minorities?
> > 
> > Not trying to start anything here, but depending on the judgement of the 
> > moderators, many of your posts would be restricted.  In fact the overall 
> > posting style of this group would not be tolerated at many moderated 
> > forums.
> > 
> > "Troll" is in the eye of the beholder.
> > 
> > I remember a group I was kicked out of.  I discovered it was moderated 
> > by posting a link to a closely related group and the message never 
> > showed up.  I reposted and got a reply from the group owner saying they 
> > didn't allow the "endorsement" of other groups.  I made a post to ask 
> > the boundaries of the restrictions and was booted because I called it a 
> > restricted group and he thought my using that term was "trolling"!  lol 
> >   How can you know what is acceptable and what is not if you don't 
> > ask???!!!  I certainly didn't know I was "endorsing" anything.
> > 
> > So this new forum may be great, but what exactly is "troll" behavior? 
> > Is it like pornography and the Supreme Court of the US, "I know it when 
> > I see it"?
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Rick
> 
> Rick I am surprised to hear this - not much different to your job, if somebody misbehaves, a warning, at some point of repetition - fired. What is the problem. The group rules define who they want to liaise with - this is what the freedom of choice of the group is. Why are these closed groups started - you want to enjoy the other members. And avoid the abuse happening here.
> 
> I remember the abuse I got when I suggested to give more power to the vendors in the Standards Group, to bring the language forward. Several recent events support my suggestion. 
> 
> The vendors I can trust: their motive is straight forward - to serve the customers  and to make money - their salary. So they will make sure the product is what their customers want. The motives of others in the Standards group i cannot judge, and they are the majority, hmmm
> In contrast the vendors represent the silent majority, definitely larger - the customers who give feedback - to the standards group or to the vendors?
> It was an interesting experience to participate in the standards meeting as a guest, and it was very positive.
> 
> A unique experience as is documented elsewhere - he will make sure that I cannot participate in such a meeting again - this is what I call democracy.
> In a closed group this would not happen. Or at least the rules would be clearer.

Iyt's a binary 32 things to disagree on and 2^32 opinions in the world, and finding one different from yourself. Oh, my god (not yours ... :D), and at 43 bits that's a true 3/4 OR relationship of having a fight.

Farts to you all ...

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#44133

JUERGEN wrote:
> I remember the abuse I got when I suggested to give more power to the
> vendors in the Standards Group, to bring the language forward.

Yes, that was a very typical case for a troll posting by the definition of 
the term troll: Combination of clueless behavior and serious provokation 
slightly below "obvious insult" threshold.  Allows the troll to finger-point 
to the insulted and their angry responds.

You know why the vendors exist, because that fits your limited knowledge of 
what motivates people: make money.  The vendors are indeed there to make 
money.  That's easy (the consequence is that they want to rubber stamp their 
products as "standard" and otherwise keep it incompatible with their 
competitor; they are the main force that is holding the standard back - they 
represent their customer by claiming that any change may break their code).  
Why are other people there, why do they dominate the TC?  You don't know, 
don't understand, and don't want to find out; they are just in your way, and 
you want to give me lessons about "democracy"?

I give you a hint: There also are people who *use* Forth.  There are people 
who develop systems and have a different business model than the extremely 
simple one; since there is not much money in Forth, there are more of them 
than vendors - these people found a better economical nice to exist than the 
vendors.  There are also people who *teach* Forth, with other intentions 
than to sell more products.

And then you scratch your head why you get angry responses.  I give you a 
hint: By supporting a minority of the TC, and showing disrespect to the rest 
of the TC, you seriously insulted people.  Maybe you did it unintentionally, 
but you did, nonetheless.  And you completely and utterly failed to grasp 
what happened (or pretended so).

And somehow this lack of being able to understand things seems to be our 
fault.  That's very typical for a troll.  A troll wants to "win" an 
argument, not to gain wisdom.

I remember that you once told us in Xian, the Chinese restaurant in Munich 
were we had our monthly Forth meetings more than a decade ago, what you 
though Usenet was for: to troll other people.  You didn't say "troll", you 
described the behavior - "win" by provoking the most responses.  And you 
seemed to be convinced that was the right way to use it.  But if you want to 
"win" that game, don't complain that you are getting angry responses - it's 
part of this weird "game".

I said I will vote against your inclusion into the TC next time, based on 
your written statement that you only want more power for the vendors - you 
are welcome if you want to speak for yourself, but I don't think a sock 
puppet is acceptable: the vendors shall not gain votes by letting sock 
puppets join.  We already have a "no proxy vote" policy in place; for the 
same reasons - some people might collect proxy votes.  If you think that 
makes it impossible for you to participate again, remember that one counter-
vote on a decision is still considered acceptable.

So only if my argument is convincing, *then* it is impossible for you to 
join, because there will be a majority against you - if my argument is 
convincing, it is a reality that exists independent of me.  Everything else 
is a Hugh-like reality distortion: I didn't kick Hugh out of the mailing 
list, he himself did.  It was a consensus between him and everybody else 
that we shouldn't take his insults any longer.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#44141

On Mon, 07 Dec 2015 17:41:35 -0500, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:

> JUERGEN wrote:

>> I remember the abuse I got when I suggested to give more power to the
>> vendors in the Standards Group, to bring the language forward.
>
> I give you a hint: By supporting a minority of the TC, and showing
> disrespect to the rest of the TC, you seriously insulted people.

Ron,

I wish you well in your utopic endeavor Ron, but the eventual
outcome is already obvious to me: anarchy or dictatorship.

If you weren't seriously paying attention to my comments, re-read
those lines above by Bernd and JUERGEN in regards to the TC, which
is another "walled off kingdom" of sorts, and then re-read my
statements summarized here:

"[...] Birds of a feather flock together ...  Over time exclusionary
environments shift toward the majority belief of those in control
and discriminate against the minority.  [...] Freedom is founded
upon dissenting voices, openness, optional anonymity, and a
willingness to listen others out of respect."

;-)

Clearly, the TC wasn't accepting of dissenting voices.  The majority
did discriminate against the minority.  And, there wasn't respect of
of certain TC members or potential members.

The Japanese supposedly have a saying which says the nail which
sticks out gets hammered down.

German culture is extremely authoritarian and dominating.  It's
why Volkswagen employees followed orders to produce a vehicle
which would pass emissions and sell well in other countries.  When
communication is only one direction, it didn't matter that they
couldn't actually do so.

> Everything else is a Hugh-like reality distortion:

Hugh's only reality distortion is his incessant rants on
Ms. Rather et. al.

The rest of what he says seems sane, although sometimes radical.


Rod Pemberton

-- 
How to kill Facebook.  Tell a bunch of fourth graders that
only old people use Facebook.  Wait eight years.

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#44230

Bernd Paysan wrote:
> JUERGEN wrote:
> > I remember the abuse I got when I suggested to give more power to the
> > vendors in the Standards Group, to bring the language forward.
> [...]
> And then you scratch your head why you get angry responses.  I give you a
> hint: By supporting a minority of the TC, and showing disrespect to the rest
> of the TC, you seriously insulted people.  Maybe you did it unintentionally,
> but you did, nonetheless.  And you completely and utterly failed to grasp
> what happened (or pretended so).

Chuck expressed his disillusionment with Forth-94 by walking out.
No doubt the remaining TC members would have felt they'd been
insulted.  Chuck could have saved himself grief by pretending to go
along with the process.  Instead he chose to quit and suffer the fallout.
What would you do?

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