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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #59011 > unrolled thread

Editor for Forth

Started byCecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
First post2017-05-10 17:07 -0500
Last post2017-05-20 18:33 -0500
Articles 7 on this page of 87 — 18 participants

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  Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 17:07 -0500
    Re: Editor for Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 15:47 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 18:52 -0500
    Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 19:06 -0400
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 19:05 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 20:42 -0400
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-10 19:59 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 21:11 -0400
    Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 17:36 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-14 07:33 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 20:39 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-11 07:09 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 00:57 -0500
          Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 09:15 +0300
            Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 01:35 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 09:49 +0300
        Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 23:42 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 01:53 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 09:59 +0300
            Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 04:32 -0400
              Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 05:52 -0500
                Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 14:07 +0300
                  Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 07:10 -0500
                Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 14:10 -0400
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 00:15 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-11 07:53 +0200
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 01:20 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 23:44 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-11 08:57 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 04:34 -0500
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 06:29 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 07:05 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 08:05 -0700
              Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-12 19:34 -0500
                Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 18:21 -0700
                  Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-12 21:53 -0500
                    Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 23:37 -0700
                      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-13 02:50 -0500
                        Re: Editor for Forth Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:11 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 14:41 -0400
            Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 15:44 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 10:52 +0300
            Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-12 02:28 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 12:43 -0400
                Re: Editor for Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 10:17 -0700
                  Re: Editor for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-13 04:39 -0500
      Re: Editor for Forth Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-05-11 08:33 +0100
    Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 07:09 +0300
      Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 00:22 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 08:35 +0300
        Re: Editor for Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-05-11 00:46 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-05-11 00:50 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 00:32 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-11 08:03 +0000
    Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-12 04:50 -0700
      Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 12:54 -0400
        Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-14 07:09 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:48 -0400
            Re: Editor for Forth Mark C <mdcorbin@googlemail.com> - 2017-05-14 11:10 -0700
          Re: Editor for Forth peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2017-05-14 14:28 -0700
            Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:02 -0400
              Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 00:03 -0500
              Re: Editor for Forth peter.m.falth@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
    Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-12 19:35 -0500
      Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 21:16 -0400
      Re: Editor for Forth Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 22:53 -0700
        Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 02:51 -0400
          Re: Editor for Forth Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 00:02 -0700
            Re: Editor for Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-13 13:36 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-13 09:09 +0200
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-13 02:41 -0500
          Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 10:31 -0400
    Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 16:43 -0500
      Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:32 -0700
        Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 18:57 -0400
          Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 18:16 -0500
            Re: Editor for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-20 16:40 -0700
              Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-20 22:04 -0400
                Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 07:04 +0300
          Re: Editor for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-21 06:53 +0000
            Re: Editor for Forth Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 10:24 +0300
              Re: Editor for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-21 14:54 +0000
            Re: Editor for Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-21 20:11 +0200
              Re: Editor for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-21 14:23 -0400
            Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-21 13:23 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 18:15 -0500
        Re: Editor for Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-20 18:33 -0500

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#59635

FromRon Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com>
Date2017-05-21 10:24 +0300
Message-ID<ofrf4h$218$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#59633

On 05/21/17 09:53, Anton Ertl wrote:

> Not a single HDD death personally (and few in the workplace in the
> last 20 years)...

Same here.  I've had exactly one HDD death in the past 30 years.  So
yeah, the HDD is probably the least reliable HW in the computer, but
that's not to say it's unreliable.

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#59655

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2017-05-21 14:54 +0000
Message-ID<2017May21.165411@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#59635
Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> writes:
>So
>yeah, the HDD is probably the least reliable HW in the computer

Not in my experience.  Motherboards and power supplies have a much
higher failure rate in my experience.  However, if a motherborad or
power supply fails, you just swap it, whereas if a HDD fails, you have
to restore from backup and still lose some work (and then there are
those people who don't make backups).  My guess is that this is why
customers value HDD reliability more, and this is why they are more
reliable in practice.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2017: http://www.euroforth.org/ef17/

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#59678

Fromalbert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date2017-05-21 20:11 +0200
Message-ID<ofsl7n$p5$1@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#59633
In article <2017May21.085319@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>>Just remember that SSD have one thing in common with rotating media, a
>>lack of reliability.  I believe that presently rotating magnetic media
>>is the least reliable part of a computer.
>
>Certainly not of my computers.  My most recent hardware failure was a
>CPU (a Core i7-6700K not overclocked except for an hour or so early on),
>before that a motherboard, and several graphics cards.  At my workplace, power supplies are also
>
>Not a single HDD death personally (and few in the workplace in the
>last 20 years), but in the late 1990s a 6GB IBM HDD developed bad
>sectors when used in a removable frame; the power supply through the
>frame system was apparently spotty, and the HDD obviously did not
>protect enough against that; a low-level format fixed that.

Agrees with my experience. No hdd failures. First problem power supply.
Then motherboards and CPU's.
I've a Intel Plato board (90 Mhz '93) fail after >20 years.
If (that is if) it is the hard disk, it lasted for over 15 years.
I tend to replace disks after 5 years, but that is to increase
capacity.

While we're at it, what about cdroms?
As far as I'm concerned, also reliable. I've dozen's of backup CD's
from ciforth in the year 2000, onward. The first part of my log
was defective, and that has happened before 2002. I was able to
read and use all CD's I've made back then and restore the log.

>
>- anton

Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#59681

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-05-21 14:23 -0400
Message-ID<ofslph$qpm$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#59678
On 5/21/2017 2:11 PM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
>
> Agrees with my experience. No hdd failures. First problem power supply.
> Then motherboards and CPU's.
> I've a Intel Plato board (90 Mhz '93) fail after >20 years.
> If (that is if) it is the hard disk, it lasted for over 15 years.
> I tend to replace disks after 5 years, but that is to increase
> capacity.

I hope you understand the nature of statistics.  I have seen hard drive 
failures.  It is other hardware that seldom fails for me.  But then I 
don't keep a computer much more than four years.  Not much point.  They 
become inadequate to run current software.


> While we're at it, what about cdroms?
> As far as I'm concerned, also reliable. I've dozen's of backup CD's
> from ciforth in the year 2000, onward. The first part of my log
> was defective, and that has happened before 2002. I was able to
> read and use all CD's I've made back then and restore the log.

I think you just made the case for redundant backups.

-- 

Rick C

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#59680

FromCecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Date2017-05-21 13:23 -0500
Message-ID<ofslp0$qe2$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#59633
On 5/21/2017 1:53 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> Just remember that SSD have one thing in common with rotating media, a
>> lack of reliability.  I believe that presently rotating magnetic media
>> is the least reliable part of a computer.
> 
> Certainly not of my computers.  My most recent hardware failure was a
> CPU (a Core i7-6700K not overclocked except for an hour or so early on),
> before that a motherboard, and several graphics cards.  At my workplace, power supplies are also
> 
> Not a single HDD death personally (and few in the workplace in the
> last 20 years), but in the late 1990s a 6GB IBM HDD developed bad
> sectors when used in a removable frame; the power supply through the
> frame system was apparently spotty, and the HDD obviously did not
> protect enough against that; a low-level format fixed that.
> 
> And from what I read, power is also a significant problem for SSDs,
> and may be more relevant for most consumers than wear.  Enterprise
> drives have a feature "power-loss protection", but for consumer
> drives, the idea seems to be that you are out of luck when you happen
> to write to the SSD (or the SSD reorganizes itself) during a power
> failure.
> 
> - anton
> 
In 40 or so years of computing I've only had one HD go bad on me (would 
fail to start) and I was able to rescue the data, lots of other items 
have failed as mentioned above, recently I had a lightning close by and 
it took out the video card, and a CD Writer but everything else was OK.

The above being said I do backup my systems regularly just in case.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59617

FromCecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Date2017-05-20 18:15 -0500
Message-ID<ofqift$1un$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#59615
On 5/20/2017 5:32 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>> So how big should the Linux drive be for the system to be viable for a
>> log time?
> 
> You are fine with 120gb unless you have a lot of media files or
> exceptionally bloated dev environments.  You can always upgrade your
> disk, too.  Yes, use an SSD.  HDD is almost like magtape now.
> 
I also have several multi-Terabyte Windows disk drives on the PC that 
can be used for generic file storage.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#59619

FromCecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com>
Date2017-05-20 18:33 -0500
Message-ID<ofqjil$4mr$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#59615
On 5/20/2017 5:32 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>> So how big should the Linux drive be for the system to be viable for a
>> log time?
> 
> You are fine with 120gb unless you have a lot of media files or
> exceptionally bloated dev environments.  You can always upgrade your
> disk, too.  Yes, use an SSD.  HDD is almost like magtape now.
> 
Mainly things like Go, GCC, some Python and Tcl/Tk tools, several 
programmers editors, Wine, and several Forth tools. Right now I have 90 
GB free space with most of the above mentioned tools loaded. I was 
worried that after loading a few more programming tools it might be 
wiser to have a 240GB or 480GB SSD for Linux and right now I have not 
spent a lot of time on the Linux partition so it might be a good time to 
switch the HD drive and reload the OS before I spent more time 
configuring things.

I have several 240GB drives so it might not be a bad idea to swap it now 
before I get seriously started with using Linux.

The machine is an i7 3.4 GHz CPU with 24GB of RAM a bigger drive would 
have more room for a couple of vmWare Window CPUs in the SSD for booting 
speed.

I'll figure it out soon as I have a project I want to get started with 
and as part of evaluating if I should switch to Linux would be to do 
that project under Linux and see how it works out.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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