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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #57064 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-04-11 13:49 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-04-14 11:26 +1000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 77 — 16 participants |
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Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 13:49 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 17:11 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 14:40 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 18:17 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 15:26 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 19:11 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-11 13:13 -1000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2017-04-14 06:11 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-11 13:12 -1000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 16:38 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 16:46 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-11 17:17 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 17:45 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-12 04:27 -0500
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2017-04-14 06:13 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-14 10:23 -1000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 20:17 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 17:35 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 20:43 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 17:47 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 18:36 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:35 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-12 17:27 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-13 03:06 +0200
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-12 21:06 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-12 20:00 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 06:44 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-13 15:44 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 14:04 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-14 11:08 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-14 13:23 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-14 22:42 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-14 22:38 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-15 13:44 +0200
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-14 10:28 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-14 22:24 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-15 13:54 +0200
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-15 15:02 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-15 15:40 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-16 10:28 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-17 22:12 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-18 23:37 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 15:31 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-15 20:43 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-15 18:14 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-15 21:49 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-04-16 20:20 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-16 20:41 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-04-17 09:03 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-16 20:49 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-04-17 09:25 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-17 16:32 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-17 22:19 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-18 13:51 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 02:15 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-19 10:54 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-19 11:03 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-17 12:37 -1000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-15 17:18 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-16 09:07 +0100
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 23:26 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:47 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 19:53 -0400
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 19:03 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:45 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-04-12 01:15 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:51 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 18:47 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 01:19 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:57 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-12 09:14 +0000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 17:00 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-04-13 10:15 +1000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-04-13 13:17 +1000
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 06:46 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 05:59 -0700
Re: Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-04-14 11:26 +1000
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 13:49 -0700 |
| Subject | Russians about standard (survey taken in 2010 ) |
| Message-ID | <81f347ba-7521-4afc-a294-4f7d9f795cac@googlegroups.com> |
12 Mar 2010 a short survey was started at: http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2510 Summary (not in exact order, but grouped by professionals/hobbyists) Question was; what you will do with new Standard? Professionals: 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes 2. Will try to adopt - 1 vote 3. My projects has highest priority - 5 votes 4. We will wait and see - 4 votes Hobbyists: 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes 2. Will try to adopt - 9 votes 3. My expectations has highest priority - 2 votes Comments?
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 17:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocjgl2$cbq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57064 |
On 4/11/2017 4:49 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > 12 Mar 2010 a short survey was started at: > http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2510 > > Summary (not in exact order, but grouped by professionals/hobbyists) > > Question was; what you will do with new Standard? > > Professionals: > 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes > 2. Will try to adopt - 1 vote > 3. My projects has highest priority - 5 votes > 4. We will wait and see - 4 votes > > Hobbyists: > 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes > 2. Will try to adopt - 9 votes > 3. My expectations has highest priority - 2 votes > > Comments? Not really. Should this be something to comment on? -- Rick C
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 14:40 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <be4661a3-7929-4c8b-8ae2-b74a1e017ff8@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57065 |
среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 0:11:56 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: > On 4/11/2017 4:49 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > 12 Mar 2010 a short survey was started at: > > http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2510 > > > > Summary (not in exact order, but grouped by professionals/hobbyists) > > > > Question was; what you will do with new Standard? > > > > Professionals: > > 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes > > 2. Will try to adopt - 1 vote > > 3. My projects has highest priority - 5 votes > > 4. We will wait and see - 4 votes > > > > Hobbyists: > > 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes > > 2. Will try to adopt - 9 votes > > 3. My expectations has highest priority - 2 votes > > > > Comments? > > Not really. Should this be something to comment on? > What do you mean? Not real answers, not real votes, or all these votes are results of mistake? :)
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 18:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocjkfc$qn6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57066 |
On 4/11/2017 5:40 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 0:11:56 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: >> On 4/11/2017 4:49 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> 12 Mar 2010 a short survey was started at: >>> http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2510 >>> >>> Summary (not in exact order, but grouped by professionals/hobbyists) >>> >>> Question was; what you will do with new Standard? >>> >>> Professionals: >>> 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes >>> 2. Will try to adopt - 1 vote >>> 3. My projects has highest priority - 5 votes >>> 4. We will wait and see - 4 votes >>> >>> Hobbyists: >>> 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes >>> 2. Will try to adopt - 9 votes >>> 3. My expectations has highest priority - 2 votes >>> >>> Comments? >> >> Not really. Should this be something to comment on? >> > > What do you mean? Not real answers, not real votes, or all these votes are results of mistake? :) What is the significance of the vote? -- Rick C
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 15:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5f42d8bf-a995-495b-8040-b9e8a34c70b8@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57067 |
> > What do you mean? Not real answers, not real votes, or all these votes are results of mistake? :) > > What is the significance of the vote? What exactly is still unclear? Professionals (i.e. writing programs in Forth at work): use/maybe/no 0 / 5 / 5 Non-professionals: use/maybe/no 0 / 9 / 2 So Standard (in Russian version, btw) is important for 82% of those who use Forth just for fun and only for 50% of professional programmers.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 19:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocjnlr$5kq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57068 |
On 4/11/2017 6:26 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> What do you mean? Not real answers, not real votes, or all these votes are results of mistake? :) >> >> What is the significance of the vote? > > What exactly is still unclear? > > Professionals (i.e. writing programs in Forth at work): use/maybe/no 0 / 5 / 5 > Non-professionals: use/maybe/no 0 / 9 / 2 > > So Standard (in Russian version, btw) is important for 82% of those who use Forth just for fun and only for 50% of professional programmers. Ok, but why is this significant? -- Rick C
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 13:13 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <hJidnbjIhsmK_nDFnZ2dnUU7-LdQAAAA@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #57068 |
On 4/11/17 12:26 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> What do you mean? Not real answers, not real votes, or all these votes are results of mistake? :) >> >> What is the significance of the vote? > > What exactly is still unclear? > > Professionals (i.e. writing programs in Forth at work): use/maybe/no 0 / 5 / 5 > Non-professionals: use/maybe/no 0 / 9 / 2 > > So Standard (in Russian version, btw) is important for 82% of those who use Forth just for fun and only for 50% of professional programmers. > Much too small a group to be statistically significant. Cheers, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth D. Rather FORTH, Inc. 6080 Center Drive, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90045 USA
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| From | The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-14 06:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3a6eed02-6294-40ca-91d5-45d26e104bbe@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57068 |
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 12:26:04 AM UTC+2, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > So Standard (in Russian version, btw) is important for 82% of those who use Forth just for fun and only for 50% of professional programmers. I have no idea what I am. The largest Forth programs I write are the ones that are professionally used (and usually for a significant amount of time - even long after I've left the organization). On the other hand, I consider myself a hobby programmer.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 13:12 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <hJidnbnIhsl3_3DFnZ2dnUU7-LfNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #57066 |
On 4/11/17 11:40 AM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 0:11:56 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: >> On 4/11/2017 4:49 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> 12 Mar 2010 a short survey was started at: >>> http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2510 >>> >>> Summary (not in exact order, but grouped by professionals/hobbyists) >>> >>> Question was; what you will do with new Standard? >>> >>> Professionals: >>> 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes >>> 2. Will try to adopt - 1 vote >>> 3. My projects has highest priority - 5 votes >>> 4. We will wait and see - 4 votes >>> >>> Hobbyists: >>> 1. Will switch to it immediately - 0 votes >>> 2. Will try to adopt - 9 votes >>> 3. My expectations has highest priority - 2 votes >>> >>> Comments? >> >> Not really. Should this be something to comment on? >> > > What do you mean? Not real answers, not real votes, or all these votes are results of mistake? :) This is useless unless we know (a) who conducted the study, and (b) who the participants were. I suspect Russians may have a different attitude toward industry standards than Americans and Europeans. Cheers, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth D. Rather FORTH, Inc. 6080 Center Drive, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90045 USA
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 16:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8e586043-6555-41cc-b301-ecbec6137747@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57070 |
> This is useless unless we know (a) who conducted the study, and (b) who > the participants were. I suspect Russians may have a different attitude > toward industry standards than Americans and Europeans. a) Currently I'm an owner of that resource and this is my survey b) This is unofficial forum of forthers in Russia. No bots allowed, all accounts must be approved manually Yes, in Russia standards means more than in USA/Europe. USSR technical school was based on the mandatory State Standards with detailed hierarchy and following Standards was a federal law (when applicable). However, content were not defined strict, with focus on requirements to issued documents. I.e. no statement like 'every program must use Alt-X to quit', but 'every input and output must be described'. State Standard 19.506-79 describes a required chapters for programming language documentation, but not forces any language features. Currently, any particular document with a status 'internal Standard of organization' means more in Russia, than any ANS. ISO, IEEE and some other Standards may be applied, but not ANS. > Much too small a group to be statistically significant. It was free to vote or not, and 21 forthers are not too small compared to c.l.f. You should not remind me of statistics, since this is an area of my practical interest :) If only acceptable result for you is '1000 forthers in Russia are waiting to start programming in Forth, and needs only new version of ANS', this is certainly not true.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 16:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3202a6d0-f528-4538-9260-4cddfd54296e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57072 |
Oh, next thread has a survey too! :) http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2509 'The main result of Standard should be:' 1. Moving to new approaches in programming - 4 votes 2. Supporting cross-platform capabilities for Forth - 7 votes 3. Providing a complete guide how to write my own translator - 6 votes 4. Library unification - 5 votes 5. Forth promotion - 1 vote 6. Combining the efforts of forters in at least something - 4 votes
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 17:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87wpaqlbry.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #57073 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes: > 'The main result of Standard should be:' I'd add: documenting a shared understanding of how a Forth implementation can be expected to behave. That's a weaker statement than "provide cross-platform capabilities for Forth", but stronger than the Colorforth situation where OR can someitmes mean exclusive or. > 3. Providing a complete guide how to write my own translator - 6 votes That's interesting. Certainly a standard shouldn't be an implementation guide. But a lot of the existing standardized features seem to be provided for the purpose of enabling implementing Forth in Forth. And yet, doing it entirely with Standard words is at best awkward. It would be nice if the next standard could streamline some of that, though it would be helped along by a reference implementation. I imagine something like a slightly expanded version of eForth to include stuff like wordlists.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 17:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2dd9859e-62ce-4fd6-ad50-d824564afb70@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57075 |
среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 3:17:38 UTC+3 пользователь Paul Rubin написал: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes: > > 'The main result of Standard should be:' > > I'd add: documenting a shared understanding of how a Forth > implementation can be expected to behave. That's a weaker statement > than "provide cross-platform capabilities for Forth", but stronger than > the Colorforth situation where OR can someitmes mean exclusive or. > > > 3. Providing a complete guide how to write my own translator - 6 votes > > That's interesting. Certainly a standard shouldn't be an implementation > guide. But a lot of the existing standardized features seem to be > provided for the purpose of enabling implementing Forth in Forth. And > yet, doing it entirely with Standard words is at best awkward. It would > be nice if the next standard could streamline some of that, though it > would be helped along by a reference implementation. I imagine > something like a slightly expanded version of eForth to include stuff > like wordlists. All variants of answer were based on most active threads and opinions appeared there at that time, so cross-platform and libraries are just a demanded features, but not strict statements, of course. A very strong voice was about implementation guide, sourced from most skilled and active programmers. I clearly see a trend when newbies are asking about user guide, but later they need an implementation guide. This corresponds to Forth phylosophy, I think. 'We may explain how to write your own Forth, but have some done for you, if you want to start right now'. In this case, if someone's Forth is really better, nobody will use his own, even after writing. So professionals should not be scary on letting others to try ;)
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 04:27 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <2LydnbUJIqllb3DFnZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #57075 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes: >> 'The main result of Standard should be:' > > I'd add: documenting a shared understanding of how a Forth > implementation can be expected to behave. That's a weaker statement > than "provide cross-platform capabilities for Forth", but stronger than > the Colorforth situation where OR can someitmes mean exclusive or. > >> 3. Providing a complete guide how to write my own translator - 6 votes > > That's interesting. Certainly a standard shouldn't be an implementation > guide. But a lot of the existing standardized features seem to be > provided for the purpose of enabling implementing Forth in Forth. Really? I find that idea quite surprising. Of course, any language which can't bootstrap itself is in some sense incomplete. But what features do you think are provided for that purpose? > And yet, doing it entirely with Standard words is at best awkward. Completely impossible, I would have thought. At least, you're going to need a cross-assembler and some way to access low-level I/O. Andrew.
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| From | The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-14 06:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e9424c3a-aa7d-4bcc-b610-88a265e13c9a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57073 |
On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 1:46:32 AM UTC+2, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > Oh, next thread has a survey too! :) > > http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2509 > > 'The main result of Standard should be:' > 1. Moving to new approaches in programming - 4 votes > 2. Supporting cross-platform capabilities for Forth - 7 votes > 3. Providing a complete guide how to write my own translator - 6 votes > 4. Library unification - 5 votes > 5. Forth promotion - 1 vote > 6. Combining the efforts of forthers in at least something - 4 votes 7. Code portability and reuse???
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-14 10:23 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <ZIqdnd_cndUvsmzFnZ2dnUU7-UHNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #57286 |
On 4/14/17 3:13 AM, The Beez wrote: > On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 1:46:32 AM UTC+2, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >> Oh, next thread has a survey too! :) >> >> http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2509 >> >> 'The main result of Standard should be:' >> 1. Moving to new approaches in programming - 4 votes >> 2. Supporting cross-platform capabilities for Forth - 7 votes >> 3. Providing a complete guide how to write my own translator - 6 votes >> 4. Library unification - 5 votes >> 5. Forth promotion - 1 vote >> 6. Combining the efforts of forthers in at least something - 4 votes > > 7. Code portability and reuse??? > Items 1-6 are all good things to do, particularly for a group, but #7 is the only real purpose of a language standard. Cheers, Elizabeth -- Elizabeth D. Rather FORTH, Inc. 6080 Center Drive, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90045 USA
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 20:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocjrgj$foe$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57072 |
On 4/11/2017 7:38 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > It was free to vote or not, and 21 forthers are not too small > compared to c.l.f. You should not remind me of statistics, since this > is an area of my practical interest :) You may know something of statistics, but I doubt you know very much about surveys. You asked some people to respond to a survey which some did. But the survey means nothing without interpretation. So anyone can interpret the results as they choose. -- Rick C
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 17:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <73129d66-0711-479e-8570-cb7b52498a8e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57074 |
среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 3:17:17 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: > On 4/11/2017 7:38 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > > > It was free to vote or not, and 21 forthers are not too small > > compared to c.l.f. You should not remind me of statistics, since this > > is an area of my practical interest :) > > You may know something of statistics, but I doubt you know very much > about surveys. > > You asked some people to respond to a survey which some did. But the > survey means nothing without interpretation. So anyone can interpret > the results as they choose. > This is why I'm asking interpretation here.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 20:43 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocjt2l$jid$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57076 |
On 4/11/2017 8:35 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 3:17:17 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: >> On 4/11/2017 7:38 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> >>> It was free to vote or not, and 21 forthers are not too small >>> compared to c.l.f. You should not remind me of statistics, since this >>> is an area of my practical interest :) >> >> You may know something of statistics, but I doubt you know very much >> about surveys. >> >> You asked some people to respond to a survey which some did. But the >> survey means nothing without interpretation. So anyone can interpret >> the results as they choose. >> > > This is why I'm asking interpretation here. I don't see any special significance to your data. It was a small group self-selected and the questions don't have a lot of context. I can assign at least three different interpretations to the four people who selected "We will wait and see". That's the trouble with polls. The intended meaning of the questions can be very different from the meaning understood by the subjects. -- Rick C
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 17:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <efb8af8d-5d96-4872-acaa-0a24b07c6115@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57078 |
среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 3:43:59 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: > On 4/11/2017 8:35 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > среда, 12 апреля 2017 г., 3:17:17 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал: > >> On 4/11/2017 7:38 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > >>> > >>> It was free to vote or not, and 21 forthers are not too small > >>> compared to c.l.f. You should not remind me of statistics, since this > >>> is an area of my practical interest :) > >> > >> You may know something of statistics, but I doubt you know very much > >> about surveys. > >> > >> You asked some people to respond to a survey which some did. But the > >> survey means nothing without interpretation. So anyone can interpret > >> the results as they choose. > >> > > > > This is why I'm asking interpretation here. > > I don't see any special significance to your data. It was a small group > self-selected and the questions don't have a lot of context. I can > assign at least three different interpretations to the four people who > selected "We will wait and see". > > That's the trouble with polls. The intended meaning of the questions > can be very different from the meaning understood by the subjects. > > -- > > Rick C List your question/answers and I will create a new survey.
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