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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #56541 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-04-01 12:10 -0400 |
| Last post | 2017-04-08 01:37 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 202 — 25 participants |
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Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 12:10 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-01 17:06 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 16:37 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 19:21 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-01 17:16 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 01:26 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 12:51 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 18:50 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 19:18 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 21:29 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 22:01 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-02 21:46 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 21:54 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-02 22:26 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 08:34 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-01 18:47 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 01:28 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 04:02 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 12:39 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-02 15:44 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 20:56 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 01:16 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 21:38 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 16:42 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-08 12:41 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-01 17:31 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-01 22:03 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 01:39 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-01 22:56 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 12:32 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 12:45 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-02 22:03 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same wordsas "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same wordsas "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-04-13 20:35 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same wordsas "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-04-13 20:37 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same wordsas "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 19:11 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 12:58 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-02 22:06 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-03 10:49 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 01:21 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-04-02 13:58 +0100
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 11:16 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 19:38 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-02 22:10 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-02 22:02 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 15:31 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 23:48 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 23:49 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 10:23 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-03 15:56 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-03 20:57 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-03 08:08 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-02 19:22 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 22:46 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 20:38 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 07:07 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 00:17 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 07:41 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-07 20:23 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 00:15 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-02 21:45 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-04-04 02:08 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-04 03:45 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-04-04 06:25 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-07 20:19 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 17:33 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-08 18:45 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 19:03 +0000
Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-03 08:23 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? joel.rees@gmail.com - 2017-04-06 03:02 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 15:46 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-07 18:59 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 20:57 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 20:37 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 01:31 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 21:45 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-07 20:32 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 01:31 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-08 06:18 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? mhx@iae.nl - 2017-04-08 03:01 -0700
Starting Forth (was: Is there a free version ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-08 12:34 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 15:53 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-09 09:36 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-07 20:30 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 17:51 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 01:22 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 23:01 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-08 23:23 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 17:11 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-09 18:18 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 23:05 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 03:11 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-09 12:24 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-09 14:16 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-09 13:50 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-10 11:20 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-10 18:49 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-10 19:42 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-11 15:26 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 10:24 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 20:42 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 11:28 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-04-09 07:32 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-08 14:30 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 16:53 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-09 14:44 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-09 08:19 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 00:26 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-09 21:39 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 07:47 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-09 21:51 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 09:18 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-10 11:41 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-10 07:57 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-10 12:27 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-10 15:57 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-04-11 13:24 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-12 01:32 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 23:37 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-10 16:59 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-10 17:49 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 14:32 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 12:09 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-11 12:18 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 15:54 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 01:47 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 12:39 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 02:33 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? mhx@iae.nl - 2017-04-11 04:12 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 03:14 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:02 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 14:24 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 03:09 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 21:37 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 15:59 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? john <anon@example.com> - 2017-04-12 17:12 +0100
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 14:19 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 03:54 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-11 21:12 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 07:19 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 00:27 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 07:32 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 12:49 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-11 21:37 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 07:53 +0300
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:25 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 16:27 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 12:52 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 12:53 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 03:51 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 00:22 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-13 15:59 +0100
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-13 13:07 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-12 03:58 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 02:54 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 18:29 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-04-09 07:23 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-09 08:04 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-04-09 23:23 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 10:00 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-10 09:21 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 10:49 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-10 10:26 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 03:10 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same wordsas "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-04-13 20:55 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-07 12:41 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 20:48 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 14:03 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-07 21:21 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-08 03:28 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 02:39 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 12:45 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 00:26 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 14:38 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 01:20 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 16:17 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-04-08 12:49 +0100
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murpy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-09 01:01 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-09 10:06 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-09 19:37 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-09 16:09 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-09 17:26 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? minforth@arcor.de - 2017-04-09 22:32 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-09 22:44 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 18:47 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-10 12:31 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-10 10:18 -1000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-10 18:11 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-11 03:21 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 11:02 -0700
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-12 04:42 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-11 13:51 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-04-08 14:04 +0000
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-04-08 09:10 +0200
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-08 12:50 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 21:31 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-04-07 20:50 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 22:04 -0400
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2017-04-07 21:22 -0500
Re: Is there a free version of Forth that uses the exact same words as "Starting Forth" on Forth Inc.'s site? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-04-08 01:37 -0400
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-10 16:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <878tn77r10.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #57022 |
Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> writes: > >When you need over a giga byte just for your operating systems > than your in trouble and that not talking about the gigabytes just to > run a halfway decent word processor. It's a mess and all of it is the > fault of the consumer, the publishers who push the developers past the > point of realism and the developers for using bug ridden, bloated > programming languages to start off with. Another way to look at it is: suppose you're in Manhattan and you have to move a 50 pound sack of potatoes from 23rd street to 42nd street, about 1 mile. You could do it in several trips on foot, or you could be like your clever ancestors and fashion some kind of makeshift wheelbarrow using an axe and some pieces of wood, but it's easiest to just lug the sack into the subway and go that way. So fine, run "apt-get install subway" and get on board. Of course installing the subway brings with it a stupendous amount of infrastructure: hundreds of miles of track, tunnels, trains, the Transit Workers Union, dedicated Con Ed power plants to supply the 600 volts DC that the trains use, etc. etc. You could think of that as insane bloat, but another way is to see that living in a city gives you instant access to a titanic amount of infrastructure that was already built and put in place by other people, that you can deploy for even simple tasks like moving some potatoes around, if it makes that more convenient. The subway and surface transit, in particular, can get you more or less from anywhere to anywhere. Plus there's all the rest of the service and products available in NYC that (til maybe recently) have been much harder to access anywhere else. So yeah, if you want to be completely off-grid and self-reliant, then go ahead and build the hand-made wheelbarrow. Most people simply wanting to get their stuff done are happy to utilize the gazillion dollar subway system for highly mundane purposes. That's modern life: the subway is there, why not use it? Similarly even if it's feasible to do something by spending a few months writing Forth code that can run on a Raspberry Pi, it's usually a lot more convenient (and cheaper if your time means anything) to spin up a cloud server, run "apt-get install BloatyMcBloatFace" even if that pulls in gigabytes of dependencies, and finish your task 100x faster than if you did everything the hard but minimal way.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-10 17:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <329494f9-afeb-4c98-9512-f102f14a88c1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57023 |
On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 4:59:40 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > So yeah, if you want to be completely off-grid and self-reliant, then go > ahead and build the hand-made wheelbarrow. Most people simply wanting > to get their stuff done are happy to utilize the gazillion dollar subway > system for highly mundane purposes. That's modern life: the subway is > there, why not use it? I can imagine in the 1500s and early 1600s when people were clamoring to discover America in their wooden sailing ships, Paul Rubin would have said: "I'm waiting for the jet airplane to be invented, so I can discover America quickly and safely, and if I go first-class, with free booze on the way." In 1994/1995 I wrote MFX when employed at Testra. This was for their MiniForth processor that they built on the Lattice isp1048. There were no tools available for me to use, other than UR/Forth --- I was lucky that UR/Forth existed --- I'm grateful to Ray Duncan for that, because otherwise I would have had to write UR/Forth first myself. For me, Forth is all about being self-reliant! If I were to write the code for a spaceship that goes to another planet, I would use Forth. It would be a natural! This is not about taking the subway --- this is about going somewhere new. BTW: A lot of people think that the wheel was humanity's first machine. This isn't really true. The pottery wheel was humanity's first machine. This is pretty easy. You build a wooden wheel with an axle about 2 inches stubbed out. Then you chip a cup into the top of a boulder, pack it with grease, and stick your axle in. Now you find a helper to spin the wheel, you rely on gravity to keep the grease in the cup, and you are in business. This can be accomplished with stone-age tools, and it works quite well --- the pottery that people were making 12,000 years ago is comparable in quality to what hobbyists make today. A wheelbarrow with a vertical-spinning wheel is much more difficult because the grease squirts out the side. This had to wait until the bronze age when it became possible to make bearings that held the grease in place. My point is that you aren't smart enough to survive during the stone-age --- you are not capable of building a pottery wheel --- neither are you capable of writing a video game such as I wrote, which is much easier.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 14:32 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocj7ap$a92$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57025 |
On 4/10/2017 8:49 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 4:59:40 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: >> So yeah, if you want to be completely off-grid and self-reliant, >> then go ahead and build the hand-made wheelbarrow. Most people >> simply wanting to get their stuff done are happy to utilize the >> gazillion dollar subway system for highly mundane purposes. That's >> modern life: the subway is there, why not use it? > > I can imagine in the 1500s and early 1600s when people were clamoring > to discover America in their wooden sailing ships, Paul Rubin would > have said: "I'm waiting for the jet airplane to be invented, so I can > discover America quickly and safely, and if I go first-class, with > free booze on the way." Whereas Hugh would have told everyone the sail ships were not built with the right tools and were rotten to their cores so that the ship builders could control the market. The right way to get to reach the new world would be to join him in his efforts to swim across the English Channel where they can walk to the Bering straight and then swim across to the new world. > In 1994/1995 I wrote MFX when employed at Testra. This was for their > MiniForth processor that they built on the Lattice isp1048. There > were no tools available for me to use, other than UR/Forth --- I was > lucky that UR/Forth existed --- I'm grateful to Ray Duncan for that, > because otherwise I would have had to write UR/Forth first myself. Yes, MFX is Hugh's coracle for crossing oceans. > For me, Forth is all about being self-reliant! If I were to write the > code for a spaceship that goes to another planet, I would use Forth. > It would be a natural! This is not about taking the subway --- this > is about going somewhere new. I bet you grow your own reeds to make your coracles. > BTW: A lot of people think that the wheel was humanity's first > machine. This isn't really true. The pottery wheel was humanity's > first machine. This is pretty easy. You build a wooden wheel with an > axle about 2 inches stubbed out. Then you chip a cup into the top of > a boulder, pack it with grease, and stick your axle in. Now you find > a helper to spin the wheel, you rely on gravity to keep the grease in > the cup, and you are in business. This can be accomplished with > stone-age tools, and it works quite well --- the pottery that people > were making 12,000 years ago is comparable in quality to what > hobbyists make today. A wheelbarrow with a vertical-spinning wheel is > much more difficult because the grease squirts out the side. This had > to wait until the bronze age when it became possible to make bearings > that held the grease in place. But what about your coracles? > My point is that you aren't smart enough to survive during the > stone-age --- you are not capable of building a pottery wheel --- > neither are you capable of writing a video game such as I wrote, > which is much easier. Really? You can't figure out how to work with wood and clay unless you know how to keep from being eating by lions, tigers and bears, oh my! -- Rick C
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| From | Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 12:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2353a7ac-3ec3-4b1d-85dc-31f30b55cb8e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57060 |
On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 19:32:51 UTC+1, rickman wrote: I'm impressed that you know what a Coracle is.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 12:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8760ian468.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #57061 |
Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> writes: > I'm impressed that you know what a Coracle is. It's a database that ran on old mainframes, I thought.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 15:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocjc3e$rd4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57061 |
On 4/11/2017 3:09 PM, Mark Wills wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 19:32:51 UTC+1, rickman wrote: > > I'm impressed that you know what a Coracle is. No intent to be offensive, but that seems like a low threshold of impression. ;) -- Rick C
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| From | Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 01:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <74b1f295-4b0e-4998-9a93-973a1d97093a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57063 |
On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 20:54:16 UTC+1, rickman wrote: > On 4/11/2017 3:09 PM, Mark Wills wrote: > > On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 19:32:51 UTC+1, rickman wrote: > > > > I'm impressed that you know what a Coracle is. > > No intent to be offensive, but that seems like a low threshold of > impression. ;) > > -- > > Rick C Ha! LOL! No, it's just that my beautiful home town of Shrewsbury (Shropshire) has an affiliation with Coracle's that goes back a few centuries. We still have Coracle races on the River Severn. https://www.coraclesociety.org.uk/news/30-06-2011/shrewsbury-1864
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 12:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocll30$doa$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57127 |
On 4/12/2017 4:47 AM, Mark Wills wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 20:54:16 UTC+1, rickman wrote: >> On 4/11/2017 3:09 PM, Mark Wills wrote: >>> On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 19:32:51 UTC+1, rickman wrote: >>> >>> I'm impressed that you know what a Coracle is. >> >> No intent to be offensive, but that seems like a low threshold of >> impression. ;) >> >> -- >> >> Rick C > > Ha! LOL! No, it's just that my beautiful home town of Shrewsbury (Shropshire) > has an affiliation with Coracle's that goes back a few centuries. We still > have Coracle races on the River Severn. > > https://www.coraclesociety.org.uk/news/30-06-2011/shrewsbury-1864 Interesting. I would think racing a coracle would have much in common with a three-legged race. Hard to do, but fun to be in. The place looks very nice. I wouldn't mind paddling there sometime. -- Rick C
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| From | Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 02:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <fa9154d1-e305-4575-ab1f-8e870fcf292b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57023 |
On Tuesday, 11 April 2017 00:59:40 UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote: > Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> writes: > > >When you need over a giga byte just for your operating systems > > than your in trouble and that not talking about the gigabytes just to > > run a halfway decent word processor. It's a mess and all of it is the > > fault of the consumer, the publishers who push the developers past the > > point of realism and the developers for using bug ridden, bloated > > programming languages to start off with. > > Another way to look at it is: suppose you're in Manhattan and you have > to move a 50 pound sack of potatoes from 23rd street to 42nd street, > about 1 mile. You could do it in several trips on foot, or you could be > like your clever ancestors and fashion some kind of makeshift > wheelbarrow using an axe and some pieces of wood, but it's easiest to > just lug the sack into the subway and go that way. So fine, run > "apt-get install subway" and get on board. > > Of course installing the subway brings with it a stupendous amount of > infrastructure: hundreds of miles of track, tunnels, trains, the Transit > Workers Union, dedicated Con Ed power plants to supply the 600 volts DC > that the trains use, etc. etc. > > You could think of that as insane bloat, but another way is to see that > living in a city gives you instant access to a titanic amount of > infrastructure that was already built and put in place by other people, > that you can deploy for even simple tasks like moving some potatoes > around, if it makes that more convenient. The subway and surface > transit, in particular, can get you more or less from anywhere to > anywhere. Plus there's all the rest of the service and products > available in NYC that (til maybe recently) have been much harder to > access anywhere else. > > So yeah, if you want to be completely off-grid and self-reliant, then go > ahead and build the hand-made wheelbarrow. Most people simply wanting > to get their stuff done are happy to utilize the gazillion dollar subway > system for highly mundane purposes. That's modern life: the subway is > there, why not use it? > > Similarly even if it's feasible to do something by spending a few months > writing Forth code that can run on a Raspberry Pi, it's usually a lot > more convenient (and cheaper if your time means anything) to spin up a > cloud server, run "apt-get install BloatyMcBloatFace" even if that pulls > in gigabytes of dependencies, and finish your task 100x faster than if > you did everything the hard but minimal way. Excellent analogy, and of course, for most everyday things, your analogy hold up perfectly well. Expanding on you analogy: What if, instead of a sack of potatoes, you were transporting a heart, or a lung? Where the delivery of that organ MUST NOT fail, because someone is waiting with their chest open and if you fail to deliver in a timely manner, that somebody will die. Would you still use the subway? No. You'd go up to the roof of the hospital to a waiting helicopter and be transported to the roof of the hospital where the patient is waiting, bypassing 99% of the city infrastructure. You might take the subway home, of course :-) Forth is a helicopter. Windows is a city. What makes me laugh is, some on CLF criticise large OS and C language etc. because they cant be relied on/can give wrong results, but they are developing Sudoku solvers. It's ridiculous. I could understand their argument (and agree with it) if they were developing a level monitoring system and sluice gate control system for an un-manned dam where the results are transmitted via redundant comms to a control room on the other side of the country; but they're not. The people who are using Forth as a means to an end to solve real problems and make money are not on CLF writing Sudoku solvers. Still, you're completely correct: For everyday mundane stuff, there's nothing wrong with large, bloaty, even buggy systems, because nobody is going to die if you can't get on Facebook today. Just don't use them on an MRI scanner.
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| From | mhx@iae.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 04:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <28c83b20-48e9-41a9-8649-441dec89ae10@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57040 |
On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 11:33:44 AM UTC+2, Mark Wills wrote: [..] > The people who are using Forth as a means to an end to solve real > problems and make money are not on CLF writing Sudoku solvers. [..] To me, the real difference is between programmers that write to a specification for an unknown customer on an unknown system with unknown desires, and programmers that write for themselves on their own hardware and with a very clear focus of what they want. In the latter case, with Forth, you will get a small, efficient, very satisfying, program. However, you might not get it in a short while, or the problem may be over your head and you get nothing, or you don't have enough time in your life to master all the domain knowledge necessary before you can start (writing). The analogy still holds when instead of "Forth" and "desktop" I'd have said "assembler" and "mainframe". -marcel
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| From | Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 03:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pYgHA.295513$o87.25357@fx21.am4> |
| In reply to | #57040 |
Mark Wills wrote: > > Excellent analogy, and of course, for most everyday things, your analogy > hold up perfectly well. > > Expanding on you analogy: What if, instead of a sack of potatoes, you were > transporting a heart, or a lung? Where the delivery of that organ MUST NOT > fail, because someone is waiting with their chest open and if you fail to > deliver in a timely manner, that somebody will die. > > Would you still use the subway? > > No. You'd go up to the roof of the hospital to a waiting helicopter and > be transported to the roof of the hospital where the patient is waiting, > bypassing 99% of the city infrastructure. > > You might take the subway home, of course :-) > > Forth is a helicopter. Windows is a city. > > What makes me laugh is, some on CLF criticise large OS and C language > etc. because they cant be relied on/can give wrong results, but they > are developing Sudoku solvers. It's ridiculous. I could understand their > argument (and agree with it) if they were developing a level monitoring > system and sluice gate control system for an un-manned dam where the > results are transmitted via redundant comms to a control room on the > other side of the country; but they're not. > > The people who are using Forth as a means to an end to solve real > problems and make money are not on CLF writing Sudoku solvers. > > Still, you're completely correct: For everyday mundane stuff, there's > nothing wrong with large, bloaty, even buggy systems, because nobody > is going to die if you can't get on Facebook today. > > Just don't use them on an MRI scanner. Thanks Mark for your spin on Paul's anology. I lik the helicopter, just make sure it's running windows/linux/osx as the dashboard's instructment operating system or any software made by programmers with the mindset that Paul seems to have and that heart just might make it to the hospital in one piece. LOL!!!
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| From | Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 16:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2csHA.501442$QJ4.321492@fx26.am4> |
| In reply to | #57088 |
Darin Murphy wrote: > > Thanks Mark for your spin on Paul's anology. I lik the helicopter, just > make sure it's running windows/linux/osx as the dashboard's instructment > operating system or any software made by programmers with the mindset > that Paul seems to have and that heart just might make it to the > hospital in one piece. LOL!!! Sorry I fat fingered that one! LOL!!! I meant to make sure it wasn't running Windows, Linux or OSX. Take care now!
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 14:24 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocj6qh$98p$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57023 |
On 4/10/2017 7:59 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> writes: >>> When you need over a giga byte just for your operating systems >> than your in trouble and that not talking about the gigabytes just to >> run a halfway decent word processor. It's a mess and all of it is the >> fault of the consumer, the publishers who push the developers past the >> point of realism and the developers for using bug ridden, bloated >> programming languages to start off with. > > Another way to look at it is: suppose you're in Manhattan and you have > to move a 50 pound sack of potatoes from 23rd street to 42nd street, > about 1 mile. You could do it in several trips on foot, or you could be > like your clever ancestors and fashion some kind of makeshift > wheelbarrow using an axe and some pieces of wood, but it's easiest to > just lug the sack into the subway and go that way. So fine, run > "apt-get install subway" and get on board. > > Of course installing the subway brings with it a stupendous amount of > infrastructure: hundreds of miles of track, tunnels, trains, the Transit > Workers Union, dedicated Con Ed power plants to supply the 600 volts DC > that the trains use, etc. etc. > > You could think of that as insane bloat, but another way is to see that > living in a city gives you instant access to a titanic amount of > infrastructure that was already built and put in place by other people, > that you can deploy for even simple tasks like moving some potatoes > around, if it makes that more convenient. The subway and surface > transit, in particular, can get you more or less from anywhere to > anywhere. Plus there's all the rest of the service and products > available in NYC that (til maybe recently) have been much harder to > access anywhere else. > > So yeah, if you want to be completely off-grid and self-reliant, then go > ahead and build the hand-made wheelbarrow. Most people simply wanting > to get their stuff done are happy to utilize the gazillion dollar subway > system for highly mundane purposes. That's modern life: the subway is > there, why not use it? > > Similarly even if it's feasible to do something by spending a few months > writing Forth code that can run on a Raspberry Pi, it's usually a lot > more convenient (and cheaper if your time means anything) to spin up a > cloud server, run "apt-get install BloatyMcBloatFace" even if that pulls > in gigabytes of dependencies, and finish your task 100x faster than if > you did everything the hard but minimal way. I think the Forth way would be to redefine the problem as moving the 50 pound sack of potatoes from 23rd street to 2nd Ave instead of 42nd St and make that intersection the starting point. Then you are done before you start! -- Rick C
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| From | Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 03:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ZTgHA.727707$fZ.660804@fx41.am4> |
| In reply to | #57023 |
Paul Rubin wrote: > > Another way to look at it is: suppose you're in Manhattan and you have > to move a 50 pound sack of potatoes from 23rd street to 42nd street, > about 1 mile. You could do it in several trips on foot, or you could be > like your clever ancestors and fashion some kind of makeshift > wheelbarrow using an axe and some pieces of wood, but it's easiest to > just lug the sack into the subway and go that way. So fine, run > "apt-get install subway" and get on board. > > Of course installing the subway brings with it a stupendous amount of > infrastructure: hundreds of miles of track, tunnels, trains, the Transit > Workers Union, dedicated Con Ed power plants to supply the 600 volts DC > that the trains use, etc. etc. > > You could think of that as insane bloat, but another way is to see that > living in a city gives you instant access to a titanic amount of > infrastructure that was already built and put in place by other people, > that you can deploy for even simple tasks like moving some potatoes > around, if it makes that more convenient. The subway and surface > transit, in particular, can get you more or less from anywhere to > anywhere. Plus there's all the rest of the service and products > available in NYC that (til maybe recently) have been much harder to > access anywhere else. > > So yeah, if you want to be completely off-grid and self-reliant, then go > ahead and build the hand-made wheelbarrow. Most people simply wanting > to get their stuff done are happy to utilize the gazillion dollar subway > system for highly mundane purposes. That's modern life: the subway is > there, why not use it? > > Similarly even if it's feasible to do something by spending a few months > writing Forth code that can run on a Raspberry Pi, it's usually a lot > more convenient (and cheaper if your time means anything) to spin up a > cloud server, run "apt-get install BloatyMcBloatFace" even if that pulls > in gigabytes of dependencies, and finish your task 100x faster than if > you did everything the hard but minimal way. Paul thank you for explaining the rationality for why the Software Industry is in the shape it is, where there are millions of programmers, being rushed to push out billions of lines of buggy, ill maintainable, unmanagable, bloated, sluggish, insecure software we are all stuck using today! The rationality to sacrifice stability, performance, compactness for convenience and cheap has made software so insecure and buggy that we all have to have good internet/network access so we can receive monthly, weekly and sometimes daily patches, and patches to fix what was newly broken in the previous patches. Also where we can marvel at having teribytes of hardrive space, which in a few more years won't matter because MS Office and Windows will eat it all up and than some! And gigabytes of RAM which also will be swallowed up by same or similiarly bloated, but convient and cheap apps or wait a minute the before mention MS Office and Windows are not even cheap, they can cost hundreds of dollars, substriptions and you don't even own the software you are now leasing it! Yes "Good Enough!", convience and cheap have really improved the quality, stability, performance, compactness and price of our modern overly commericalized, insecure world! LOL!!! Sorry Paul, I couldn't help myself. Anyway, if we take your analogy. I was one of the millions of "subway troubleshooting/repairing/educating guys", who had spent over 20 years figuring out, repairing, rebuilding, remodeling, educating the pubpulace on saftely using and surviving the subway, and observed and learned enough over that time to realize that the subway is in a constant state of collapsing and killing guys like you who use it for it's convenience, without learning from the last dozen or so previous collasping, car crashes, cars jumping off the rails and running people down, cars just disappearing, or appearing out of the blue, engines that just stop dead and require a jump to restart, that it is better to just build the wheelbarrow and eventually get there alive! If Subways were build and supported like modern software, they would have been condemned and the builders and designers would have been put in prison, or class-action suited out of existance. LOL!!! Take care now, Darin Murphy
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| From | lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 21:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7492327c-1d7d-4131-a79f-81630f128911@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #57087 |
You are right about windows: it eats memory and generate queue problems. Sometimes it takes seconds before a command even is starting to run and sometimes minutes before a keystroke is recognized. The great companies programs seems to ignore my own needs and blocking queues with their own needs without any inhibitions. Almost like drivers in Naples that rather block all movments than leave precedence to someone else (to do the same). Sometimes Google and Microsoft take 100 % processor + 100 % disk up to 30 minutes. I take advantages of the situation by training my patience. I miss the feeling of immediate acting from the old and slow computers.
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| From | Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 15:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <%9sHA.392867$QG3.119591@fx17.am4> |
| In reply to | #57101 |
lehs wrote: > You are right about windows: it eats memory and generate queue problems. Sometimes it takes seconds before a command even is starting to run and sometimes minutes before a keystroke is recognized. The great companies programs seems to ignore my own needs and blocking queues with their own needs without any inhibitions. Almost like drivers in Naples that rather block all movments than leave precedence to someone else (to do the same). Sometimes Google and Microsoft take 100 % processor + 100 % disk up to 30 minutes. I take advantages of the situation by training my patience. > > I miss the feeling of immediate acting from the old and slow computers. Thanks lehs for your view. I too remember how much faster my 8088 felt launching/running DOS applications compared to my last PC ( Quad core, with 8 Gigabytes of RAM, Terabyte HD, 1 GB Geforce Video card running Windows 7 ). Also even though I was running Microsoft (The worse of the bunch) through the ringer with my examples modern Linux Distros have become nearly as bad and they are still not as easy to use as a Windows OS, which was MS only advantage. I also hear a lot of flack from OSX users too about bugs, slow downs, insane patches, and bloated applications too, so they are just as bad. Now I can't only blame the software publishers and developers for this mess, the consumer is the only one who has the real power and way, way to easy to deceive (including myself in that group, btw), but that's another debate. I'm here to learn and become a Forth programmer then Assembly again, then I'll be able to help build things that improve lives and not just increase a selective few's bank accounts. Take care now,
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| From | john <anon@example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 17:12 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3358625ccd1e1c4998970a@news.virginmedia.com> |
| In reply to | #57152 |
In article <%9sHA.392867$QG3.119591@fx17.am4>, murphy.darin@gmail.com says... > Thanks lehs for your view. I too remember how much > faster my 8088 felt launching/running DOS applications compared to my > last PC ( Quad core, with 8 Gigabytes of RAM, Terabyte HD, 1 GB > Geforce Video card running Windows 7 ). Also even though I was running > Microsoft (The worse of the bunch) through the ringer with my examples > modern Linux Distros have become nearly as bad and they are > still not as easy to use as a Windows OS, which was MS only advantage. I > also hear a lot of flack from OSX users too about bugs, slow downs, > insane patches, and bloated applications too, so they are just as bad. > Now I can't only blame the software publishers and developers for this > mess, the consumer is the only one who has the real power and way, way > to easy to deceive (including myself in that group, btw), but that's > another debate. I'm here to learn and become a Forth programmer then > Assembly again, then I'll be able to help build things that improve > lives and not just increase a selective few's bank accounts. > > Take care now, I don't know if it helps but 've recently put an 850 EVO 500GB SSD in my win7 box. The speed up is quite amazing (its a 5 year old intel quad 2.4Ghz box) The first stage boot takes about 6 seconds - after entering the password it takes less then 1 second to finish the desktop. All paging is turned off. Incidently - Resource monitor shows 1MB hardware reserved and 605MB ram in use. -- john ========================= http://johntech.co.uk "Bleeding Edge Forum" http://johntech.co.uk/forum/ =========================
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 14:19 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ocj6h1$86t$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #57022 |
On 4/10/2017 7:37 PM, Darin Murphy wrote: > rickman wrote: > >> On 4/8/2017 12:53 PM, Darin Murpy wrote: > >> >> There is some irony in the fact that of the systems that host a real OS, >> the RaspberryPi is the only one I am aware of that offers a usable bare >> iron Forth and I'm not sure the the Forth OS on the rPi is actually very >> complete. I think these days you have a choice of running under an OS >> or working with a very limited system. > > Yes, I'm planning on getting a Raspberry Pi B+ to experiment using > pijforth which works with the Raspberry Pi B. >> >> >> Huh? I don't think I've heard of a Fig Forth that runs under any OS. I >> suppose you could grab one of the many Fig Forths written to run on a >> small CPU and run it on an emulator under DOS or Windows. I believe >> someone has done that for the PDP-11 Fig Forth. I helped him copy some >> PDFs into text files. I can't recall his name, but I can dig it up if >> you are interested. > > Your right! I was mistaken about the FigForth running on DOS and after > looking over the Forth's that did run on it (FPC386 for one) I won't be > going that route. >> >> >> I have no idea what "mess" you are talking about. > > Man where have you been living these last 30 years? Much of it was in my family home in Frederick, MD and a home I bought in Herndon, VA. But more recently I am living in WV while spending time at my place in central VA. What does that have to do with this discussion? > I am a retired IT > Support Technician who had been supporting PCs, Servers, general > networks, printers, etc for over twenty years. I started out of a flea > market in my twenties to supporting Sun Microsystems, Meag Power, Moen, > Intercontinental Hotels, just to name a few and I know a lot about the > mess we call modern operating systems and modern programming languages. > 30 years ago it was the hardware that was a mess with all of the > clones and everybody having their own OS, and nobody could talk to > anyone else's stuff. Now it's the software that is a complete bloated, > bug ridden mess. When you need over a giga byte just for your operating > systems than your in trouble and that not talking about the gigabytes > just to run a halfway decent word processor. It's a mess and all of it > is the fault of the consumer, the publishers who push the developers > past the point of realism and the developers for using bug ridden, > bloated programming languages to start off with. Trust me it is a mess > and it will stay that way until it gets so bad that the consumer grabs > pitch forks and start lynching people or until people realize you using > garbage to make something will only lead you to something that is > garbage. Garbage in = garbage out! KISS is not just a cute message it's > the only way to do it unless you want bloated bug ridden garbage and > whoever came up with the term "Good enough" had to be a salesman. Why is using memory a mess? How exactly are programming languages full of bugs? Isn't it the programs that are full of bugs? Pitchforks? I have one around here somewhere. But I'm not interested in lynching anyone and I don't kiss very many. So the mess you are talking about is salesmen who ask for "good enough"? I'm not sure what that even means... >> I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt with wanting to learn >> Forth. I find it interesting when people come here looking to learn >> about Forth and quickly start explaining how the Forth they find isn't >> the Forth they are looking for and so they start criticizing it. I >> think I may have gone through that phase myself at one point. > > Well I think that's because the forth they learn about is the Forth > prior to modernizing and standardizing it. I don't know about other > people but I found Forth by searching for unique programming languages > and started reading things that Mr. Moore and Jeff Fox wrote about. Then > I hunted for Forth tutorials with reviews "Starting Forth" had great > reviews and a Forth that ran on my Tablet and/or my Raspberry Pi 3, > which was Gforth. GForth is not like Mr. Moores Forth, but it kind of > reminds me a little of it and so far it has gotten me to Chapter 10 of > "Starting Forth", so it works for now. The part I don't get is how you became such an expert in Forth if you haven't even finished reading "Starting Forth"? I have to say, I am quite impressed. I've read that book as well as a couple of others and I still don't consider myself to be an expert. As I mentioned before, I went through a phase where I criticized Forth for not being what I needed at the time (which was a Forth I could justify to my managers so I could buy a commercial version). I grew out of that and it has been a steady progress backwards for me. Much like life, as I get more experience I learn more about how little I know. Hugh has completed my education so I now realize I've not even written a Forth program in my life! I'm not sure what to call the code I used to test the thousands of boards I've built over the last 10 years or what those things are that run on small embedded targets to make them do useful work, but it seems none of that was Forth. I've learned so much about how little I now know. >> The beauty of Forth is if you don't like what you find, you are always >> free to create your own. Let us know when you have done that. I'd be >> interested in what you end up with and just how useful it is to someone >> wanting to learn how to use a modern Forth. Have you considered that >> maybe the Forths are fine and it is the Starting Forth book that needs >> to be updated? :) >> > > Exactly! Take care now, I look forward to seeing the Starting Forth compiler you produce. :) -- Rick C
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| From | Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-12 03:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <sxhHA.871810$3B6.851478@fx40.am4> |
| In reply to | #57057 |
rickman wrote: >>> I have no idea what "mess" you are talking about. >> >> Man where have you been living these last 30 years? > > Much of it was in my family home in Frederick, MD and a home I bought in > Herndon, VA. But more recently I am living in WV while spending time at > my place in central VA. What does that have to do with this discussion? > > Your humor isn't. >> I am a retired IT >> Support Technician who had been supporting PCs, Servers, general >> networks, printers, etc for over twenty years. I started out of a flea >> market in my twenties to supporting Sun Microsystems, Meag Power, Moen, >> Intercontinental Hotels, just to name a few and I know a lot about the >> mess we call modern operating systems and modern programming languages. >> 30 years ago it was the hardware that was a mess with all of the >> clones and everybody having their own OS, and nobody could talk to >> anyone else's stuff. Now it's the software that is a complete bloated, >> bug ridden mess. When you need over a giga byte just for your operating >> systems than your in trouble and that not talking about the gigabytes >> just to run a halfway decent word processor. It's a mess and all of it >> is the fault of the consumer, the publishers who push the developers >> past the point of realism and the developers for using bug ridden, >> bloated programming languages to start off with. Trust me it is a mess >> and it will stay that way until it gets so bad that the consumer grabs >> pitch forks and start lynching people or until people realize you using >> garbage to make something will only lead you to something that is >> garbage. Garbage in = garbage out! KISS is not just a cute message it's >> the only way to do it unless you want bloated bug ridden garbage and >> whoever came up with the term "Good enough" had to be a salesman. > > Why is using memory a mess? How exactly are programming languages full > of bugs? Isn't it the programs that are full of bugs? It is not using memory that is an issue, it's building software that uses far more memory (10x to 100x) more memory that is part of the mess. Using too much RAM memory means the software or OS will run slower due to hard drive paging. Using too much harddrive memory means less useful information will be able exist on hard drive. That is what many refer to as bloat and it is GOOD NOT = . I have watched the progression of software bloat grow since the 90s to the point now where even a simple word processing application can take litterally gigabytes of space and for what? Is it modifying and adjusting a gigabyte of pages of data? Does words spell checking dictionary hold every single natural language, constructive language and made up language that has ever been in existance? If so again why? If not than why is MS Word that big all by itself? Or why would MS Office need 10s of gigabytes of hard drive space and gigabytes of RAM just to run? That is just one example of memory bloat, and I haven't talked about most modern software memory leaks and again the question is why? As Paul argued it's convenience and affordability. Have you looked at the price of MS Office? It's not $20.00 which would be considered cheap! If you and Paul and whoever wants to argue about what I'm talking about, cannot see the logical facts that have been going on over the last 20+ years, than I can't help you. I'm not going to argue about it further. It's not logical, its not productive and it's not rational. Anyway, thank you for your opinon as ignorant as it is. > > Pitchforks? I have one around here somewhere. But I'm not interested > in lynching anyone and I don't kiss very many. > > So the mess you are talking about is salesmen who ask for "good enough"? > I'm not sure what that even means... > > >>> I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt with wanting to learn >>> Forth. I find it interesting when people come here looking to learn >>> about Forth and quickly start explaining how the Forth they find isn't >>> the Forth they are looking for and so they start criticizing it. I >>> think I may have gone through that phase myself at one point. >> >> Well I think that's because the forth they learn about is the Forth >> prior to modernizing and standardizing it. I don't know about other >> people but I found Forth by searching for unique programming languages >> and started reading things that Mr. Moore and Jeff Fox wrote about. Then >> I hunted for Forth tutorials with reviews "Starting Forth" had great >> reviews and a Forth that ran on my Tablet and/or my Raspberry Pi 3, >> which was Gforth. GForth is not like Mr. Moores Forth, but it kind of >> reminds me a little of it and so far it has gotten me to Chapter 10 of >> "Starting Forth", so it works for now. > > The part I don't get is how you became such an expert in Forth if you > haven't even finished reading "Starting Forth"? I have to say, I am > quite impressed. I've read that book as well as a couple of others and > I still don't consider myself to be an expert. As I mentioned before, I > went through a phase where I criticized Forth for not being what I > needed at the time (which was a Forth I could justify to my managers so > I could buy a commercial version). I grew out of that and it has been a > steady progress backwards for me. Much like life, as I get more > experience I learn more about how little I know. Hugh has completed my > education so I now realize I've not even written a Forth program in my > life! I'm not sure what to call the code I used to test the thousands > of boards I've built over the last 10 years or what those things are > that run on small embedded targets to make them do useful work, but it > seems none of that was Forth. I've learned so much about how little I > now know. > Never said I was an expert in Forth and your right I cannot be at the stage I have progressed too, but I can read and I have been reseaching Forth, it's creator, his reasons and they are more sound than Paul's "convenience" and "cheap", and your "what mess?". Also Mr. Moore is not the only program language creator who is trying to get people to understand that there are serious issues with the modern software industry that has been going on for well over 40 years. Also I have studied over 20 different programming languages over the last 30 years starting with basic, pascal, C, to Java, Javascript, python, perl, scheme, common lisp and while I am not an expert in any of them either, it doesn't take an expert to read the reviews and opinions of both programmers who praise them and those who condemn them as well as quiet a bit real experiene learning and programming in them to see things that are positive about them and things that are negative. The negatives are quiet striking and a bit scary considering how many people, companies, governments rely on that software. Also pretty much every modern programming language (meaning main stream languages) have a bug list, explaining recorded and resolved issue with their compilers/interpreters. If you want to go and use google search engine to see for yourself you will find that ALL modern programming languages usually have hundreds if not thousands and some have millions of bugs. Now I have an anology for you, Paul and whoever wants to argue the point further. You are a builder, who has been instructed for build a 3 story 5 bedroom home for a family 6 in one year. You have a crew of 30 men/women who work under you. You go and get all of your building supplies and gather your tools. Each of your tools can have up to 1000 flaws in it, that could cause them to either not work, work sometimes, work for a while than just stop suddenly which could cause an injury, over heat, sometimes use 5 times the power to keep running, parts just start falling off of it, are not very well protected or safe between uses or on rare occasion explode. Now the good thing is ever couple of days or weeks the tool manufacturer comes along and swaps parts of your tools. Now after they do that sometimes the tool doesn't work at all or gets a new problem. The instructions for some of your tools are documented well enough that you can understand them, while others are not and some of them have no instrucitons at all! Now the tools cost you hundreds of dollars since they were produced by the top tool makers in the world! You have exactly one year to build this home, no delays, no excuses and if any of your crew are injured or killed, you cannot replace them. Also you must keep the price of this home at $250,000.00 and you cannot be over budget or it comes out of your profits and the wages of your employees. Now what do you think your chances of building this house on time and in budget with the tools you have? Take care now. > >>> The beauty of Forth is if you don't like what you find, you are always >>> free to create your own. Let us know when you have done that. I'd be >>> interested in what you end up with and just how useful it is to someone >>> wanting to learn how to use a modern Forth. Have you considered that >>> maybe the Forths are fine and it is the Starting Forth book that needs >>> to be updated? :) >>> >> >> Exactly! Take care now, > > I look forward to seeing the Starting Forth compiler you produce. :) >
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-04-11 21:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87y3v6jmbo.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #57092 |
Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> writes: > Using too much RAM memory means the software or OS will run slower due > to hard drive paging. When was the last time you saw that happen? For that matter, when was the last time you saw a hard drive? I guess hard drives are still around, but most personal computers these days use solid state disks, especially if you count mobile phones. > software bloat grow since the 90s to the point now where even a simple > word processing application can take litterally gigabytes of > space... If not than why is MS Word that big all by itself? Or why > would MS Office need 10s of gigabytes of hard drive space and > gigabytes of RAM just to run? MS Office bloat was a 1990s thing. It's all in the cloud now. The culprit eating personal computers these days is web browsers. They are much more insidious than word processors, since if you liked your 1990s word processor you could keep using it while MS went off into the weeds. But web browsers are on a truly forced upgrade cycle, since as they support more crap, web sites start using that crap, so then you need new browsers to view the sites, etc. You might like this: http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm > Have you looked at the price of MS Office? It's not $20.00 which would > be considered cheap! Try: http://www.libreoffice.org/
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