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Book?

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  Book? Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-13 18:48 +0100
    Re: Book? Alex Dowad <alexinbeijing@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 10:50 -0700
      Re: Book? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 13:53 -0400
    Re: Book? Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk> - 2016-07-13 19:30 +0100
      Re: Book? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 11:51 -0700
      Re: Book? Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-13 23:09 +0100
        Re: Book? Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk> - 2016-07-14 08:51 +0100
    Re: Book? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-13 09:26 -1000
      Re: Book? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 17:50 -0700
    Re: Book? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-13 20:41 +0000
      Re: Book? Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfrze.cam> - 2016-07-14 02:35 -0400
        Re: Book? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 00:36 -0700
    Re: Book? Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 15:21 -0700
    Re: Book? hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 18:41 -0700
      Re: Book? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-13 22:36 -0400
      Re: Book? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-14 06:18 +0000
    Re: Book? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 03:16 -0700
      Re: Book? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-14 09:09 -0500
    Re: Book? endlessboomcapitalism@gmail.com - 2016-07-14 09:47 -0700
    Re: Book? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-07-17 16:59 +1000

#49116 — Book?

Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an 
introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed 
in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
-- 
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
   Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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#49117

On Wednesday, 13 July 2016 19:48:08 UTC+2, Peter Percival  wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an 
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed 
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.

Depending on how reckless that fellow is, he might benefit more from reading the code for a simple Forth implementation, rather than reading a book. I wholeheartedly recommend Jones Forth.

AD

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#49118

On 7/13/2016 1:50 PM, Alex Dowad wrote:
> On Wednesday, 13 July 2016 19:48:08 UTC+2, Peter Percival  wrote:
>> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
>> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
>> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
>
> Depending on how reckless that fellow is, he might benefit more from reading the code for a simple Forth implementation, rather than reading a book. I wholeheartedly recommend Jones Forth.

I think that would be the hard way.  Much better to learn what forth is 
about and then look under the covers if you want.

-- 

Rick C

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#49119

On 13/07/2016 18:48, Peter Percival wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.

https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/0-starting-forth/

Cheers
-- 
Syd

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#49123

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 11:30:15 AM UTC-7, Syd Rumpo wrote:
> On 13/07/2016 18:48, Peter Percival wrote:
> > Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
> > introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
> > in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
> 
> https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/0-starting-forth/
> 
> Cheers
> -- 
> Syd

Finding an introductory book is easy, as many were written in the 1980s --- finding a book at the intermediate level is much more difficult --- finding a book at the advanced level is impossible.

You can read "Starting Forth" --- I did, and I enjoyed the cartoons, as did everybody --- that book doesn't teach you how to implement structs though, most likely because nobody at Forth Inc. knows what a struct is.

I didn't even know what a struct was until I learned C --- I had learned about records in Pascal class in high-school, but didn't really understand what they were for --- it wasn't until I was older that I found out on my own about general-purpose data-structures and how they allow programs to be written quickly, and ever since that time I have wanted Forth to support general-purpose data-structures (of course, in 1994 ANS-Forth totally killed this dream, and nothing has changed since then).

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#49127

Syd Rumpo wrote:
> On 13/07/2016 18:48, Peter Percival wrote:
>> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
>> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
>> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
>
> https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/0-starting-forth/
>
> Cheers

Is that you Mr Rumpo?  What puts me off (sorry, I mean what will put 
this fellow off I guess) is "Leo Brodie’s inability to express even the 
most complex technical concepts without adding a twist of humor". 
Humour is a very individual thing, isn't it?  And I am (sorry, I mean he 
is I think) notoriously grumpy.

-- 
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
   Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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#49150

On 13/07/2016 23:09, Peter Percival wrote:
> Syd Rumpo wrote:
>> On 13/07/2016 18:48, Peter Percival wrote:
>>> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
>>> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
>>> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
>>
>> https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/0-starting-forth/
>>
>> Cheers
>
> Is that you Mr Rumpo?  What puts me off (sorry, I mean what will put
> this fellow off I guess) is "Leo Brodie’s inability to express even the
> most complex technical concepts without adding a twist of humor". Humour
> is a very individual thing, isn't it?  And I am (sorry, I mean he is I
> think) notoriously grumpy.

Yes, I know what you mean.  I learned Forth by doing, starting with a 
Jupiter Ace and then a Rockwell single chip computer.  Later I used 
Forth on the Harris RTX2000 stack machine - one product was a materials 
testing machine controller which is so adaptable it's still being made 
over twenty years on.

It's actually quite easy, but different.  Stacks are one thing, but the 
idea that operators are 'typed' and data isn't is unusual.  I enjoy the 
freedom and flexibility, and find it very productive and reliable for 
embedded systems, but customers often specify C, probably because that's 
what they learned and it's easier to spell.

Cheers
-- 
Syd

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#49125

On 7/13/16 7:48 AM, Peter Percival wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.

The Forth Programmer's Handbook is included with the free SwiftForth and 
SwiftX evaluation versions, which would give your friend something to 
try, as well. Handbook is more appropriate for someone who is already a 
programmer than Starting Forth, which was for total newbies.

Forth Application Techniques is a tutorial, available from Amazon, as is 
a paper Forth Programmer's Handbook.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#49130

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 12:26:46 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> On 7/13/16 7:48 AM, Peter Percival wrote:
> > Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
> > introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
> > in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
> 
> The Forth Programmer's Handbook is included with the free SwiftForth and 
> SwiftX evaluation versions, which would give your friend something to 
> try, as well. Handbook is more appropriate for someone who is already a 
> programmer than Starting Forth, which was for total newbies.
> 
> Forth Application Techniques is a tutorial, available from Amazon, as is 
> a paper Forth Programmer's Handbook.
> 
> Cheers,
> Elizabeth

This book is total crap!

Here is what Elizabeth Rather said previously:

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 7:30:10 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> Here's [an array definer] presented in my Forth Application Techniques that I think is
> far more useful than the FSL version:
>
> : ARRAY ( n -- )   CREATE DUP , CELLS ALLOT
>     DOES> ( n -- a)   SWAP OVER @ OVER < OVER
>        1 < OR ABORT" Out of Range" CELLS + ;

I would expect anybody with one week of Forth programming experience to write better code than this. 

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#49126

Peter Percival wrote:

> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless
> fool) wanted to read an introductory book on
> Forth, what would you recommend?  He has
> programmed in such languages as C, Modula-2,
> PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.

At first, programming was done by flipping switches. Later,
when machine-language was invented, there were some boneheads
who were unable to learn the new method. Unwilling to admit
their inabililty, they proclaimed: "Real men aren't
machine-language kiddies!  They still flip switches!  Show me
what can be done in machine-language that can't be done by
flipping switches!"

Later, when assembly language was invented, there were some
boneheads who were unable to learn the new method. Unwilling
to admit their inabililty, they proclaimed: "Real men aren't
assembly-language kiddies! Show me what can be done in
assembly language that can't be done in machine-language!"

Later, when languages such as C and Forth were invented, there
were some boneheads who were unable to learn the new methods.
Unwilling to admit their inabililty, they proclaimed: "Real
men aren't Forth kiddies! Show me what can be done in Forth
that can't be done in assembly language!"

Later, when higher-level languages such Ruby and Perl were
invented, there were some boneheads who were unable to learn
the new methods. Unwilling to admit their inabililty, they
proclaimed: "Real men aren't script kiddies! Show me what can
be done in Ruby that can't be done in Forth!"

Instead of learning another low-level language, you ought
to learn a high-level language.

> -- 
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
>   Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Ruby:

text = "
Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless
fool) wanted to read an introductory book on
Forth, what would you recommend?  He has
programmed in such languages as C, Modula-2,
PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

words = text.scan(/\w+/).values_at(17,44,50,34,36)
words.first.capitalize!
words.last << "."
words.join(" ")
 ===>
"You will find Forth weak."

-- 
The wayfarer perceiving the pathway to truth was struck with astonishment. It
was thickly grown with weeds. "Ha," he said, "I see that none has passed here
in a long time." Later he saw that each weed was a singular knife. "Well," he
mumbled at last, "Doubtless there are other roads." --- Stephen Crane

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#49145

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 20:41:33 -0000 (UTC)
"WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ruby:
> 
> text = "
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless
> fool) wanted to read an introductory book on
> Forth, what would you recommend?  He has
> programmed in such languages as C, Modula-2,
> PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
> 
> words = text.scan(/\w+/).values_at(17,44,50,34,36)
> words.first.capitalize!
> words.last << "."
> words.join(" ")
>  ===>  
> "You will find Forth weak."
> 

In ANSI C:

#include <stdio.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <ctype.h>

char text[]="Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to
read an introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has
programmed in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in
Forth.  Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to
seek, to find, and not to yield.";

int main(void)
{
  int i=0;
  char *p=text,*a[256];

  while(p!=NULL){i++;p=strpbrk(p," ,.()?");if(p!=NULL){*p='\0';p++;a[i]=p;}};
  p=a[20];*p=toupper(*p);
  printf("%s %s %s %s %s.\n",a[20],a[58],a[66],a[45],a[49]);

return(0);
}


Output:

You will find Forth weak.


If the best that Ruby can do is to shave a few setup lines from C, it
really doesn't seem to me to be all that amazing.  Note that this is
ANSI C or C89 which was standardized in 1989, and not ISO C99.

I'd really like to see a Forth version.  I'm a bit unsure as to how
string processing such as this is handled in Forth.


Rod Pemberton

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#49149

On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 1:34:39 AM UTC-5, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> If the best that Ruby can do is to shave a few setup lines from C, it
> really doesn't seem to me to be all that amazing.

What could possibly be amazing about it?

A Shakespearean insult generator or an anagram generator would
be more amazing than this dumb joke that WJ keeps making.

> I'd really like to see a Forth version.  I'm a bit unsure as to how
> string processing such as this is handled in Forth.

  : string, ( c-addr u -- ) dup c, here swap dup allot move ;
    
  : | ( "word" "word" ... n -- ... n' )
    begin 1+ here swap  parse-name dup while
      string,
    repeat 2drop nip 1- ;
  
  : index: ( ... a n "name" -- )
    create dup cells allot here swap 0 ?do
      cell- tuck !
    loop drop ;
  
  0
    | Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless
    | fool) wanted to read an introductory book on
    | Forth, what would you recommend?  He has
    | programmed in such languages as C, Modula-2,
    | PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
    | Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    | To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
  dup constant #words index: words
  
  : word ( n -- )  cells words + @ count type space ;
  
  : .words ( -- )  #words 0 do cr i . i word loop ;


I'm not going to pick out words for you.

The natural place to strip off punctuation is at STRING,  

  : letter? ( c -- f )
    [char] a [ char z 1+ ] literal within ;
  : lowercase ( C -- c )  bl or ;
  
  : normalized, ( c-addr u -- )
    here over 2swap  1 allot  bounds ?do
      i c@ lowercase dup letter? if c,
      else drop 1- then
    loop swap c! ;

which stores PL/M as plm, and ..., as the empty string.

-- Julian

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#49128

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 12:48:08 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an 
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed 
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.

gforth comes with tutorials.  The 'crash course' is pretty good.

Otherwise, this stuff: http://mpeforth.com/books.htm

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#49131

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 10:48:08 AM UTC-7, Peter Percival wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an 
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed 
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
> -- 
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
>    Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

Reading tutorials is a waste of time. It is better if the guy should just write a program in Forth. He can look up what he needs to know in a reference as he finds the need --- it will be more memorable this way --- if you just read with the vague idea of learning, you don't remember anything that you have read because you haven't applied it.

In this thread I gave Gavino an assignment:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.forth/assignment%7Csort:date/comp.lang.forth/qTDKxhW9758/LirGZX7NCQAJ
That would be a good start. Or the guy can just write a program that he finds interesting. Start with something easy --- work up to more difficult programs over time --- pretty soon Forth will be easy.

I have general-purpose data-structures here:
http://www.forth.org/novice.html
You can't write any non-trivial program without data-structures --- programs involve processing data.

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#49137

On 7/13/2016 9:41 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 10:48:08 AM UTC-7, Peter Percival wrote:
>> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
>> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
>> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
>> --
>> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
>> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
>>    Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson
>
> Reading tutorials is a waste of time. It is better if the guy should just write a program in Forth. He can look up what he needs to know in a reference as he finds the need --- it will be more memorable this way --- if you just read with the vague idea of learning, you don't remember anything that you have read because you haven't applied it.

Exactly wrong.  Trying to write Forth code without having some knowledge 
of basic words just makes for pointless thrashing around.  Starting with 
some sort of tutorial, even a very basic one like "Starting Forth" is a 
good start.

-- 

Rick C

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#49143

hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

> Reading tutorials is a
> waste of time. It is
> better if the guy should
> just write a program in
> Forth. He can look up
> what he needs to know in
> a reference as he finds
> the need --- it will be
> more memorable this way
> --- if you just read
> with the vague idea of
> learning, you don't
> remember anything that
> you have read because
> you haven't applied it.

That's about right.  Reading a book about piano-playing doesn't
make a man a pianist.

-- 
The report card by the American Society of Civil Engineers showed the national
infrastructure a single grade above failure, a step from declining to the point
where everyday things simply stop working the way people expect them to. ---
washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/us-infrastructure-gets-d-in-annual-report/2013/03/19/c48cb010-900b-11e2-9cfd-36d6c9b5d7ad_story.html

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#49157

On Wednesday, 13 July 2016 18:48:08 UTC+1, Peter Percival  wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an 
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed 
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
> -- 
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
>    Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

http://turboforth.net/about_forth.html
http://turboforth.net/tutorials/tutorials.html

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#49161

On 7/14/2016 5:16 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Wednesday, 13 July 2016 18:48:08 UTC+1, Peter Percival  wrote:
>> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
>> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
>> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
>> --
>> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
>> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
>>    Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson
>
> http://turboforth.net/about_forth.html
> http://turboforth.net/tutorials/tutorials.html
>
Interesting stuff going back quite a few years. Thanks for the link.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#49162

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 1:48:08 PM UTC-4, Peter Percival wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an 
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed 
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.
> -- 
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
>    Ulysses, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

pfe and gforth are available 
starting forth
thinking forth
programming a problem oriented language by chuck moore himself

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#49199

Peter Percival wrote:
> Suppose some fellow (probably a reckless fool) wanted to read an
> introductory book on Forth, what would you recommend?  He has programmed
> in such languages as C, Modula-2, PL/M, ..., but not in Forth.

You should be able to find something here:

http://www.forth.org/tutorials.html

The Bezemer book is quite well organized.

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