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e8th prototype hardware!

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  e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 12:01 +0300
    Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 09:03 -0700
      Re: e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 19:19 +0300
        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-12 12:44 -0500
          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 20:48 +0300
            Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 13:57 -0400
              Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 11:04 -0700
          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 10:53 -0700
            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-12 13:43 -0500
              Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 18:14 -0400
                Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 15:47 -0700
                  Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 19:14 -0400
                    Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 23:38 -0700
                      Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 23:59 -0700
                        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 00:16 -0700
                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 10:31 +0300
                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-13 01:23 -0700
                            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 02:08 -0700
                      Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 10:42 -0400
                        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 08:36 -0700
                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 11:57 -0400
                            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-14 12:53 -0700
                              Re: e8th prototype hardware! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-05-14 21:41 +0000
                              Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 00:08 -0400
                                Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-14 21:46 -0700
                                  Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 09:37 -0400
                                    Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 07:26 -0700
                                      Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 11:26 -0400
                                        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 09:20 -0700
                                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 17:17 -0400
                                            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 22:10 -0700

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#47088

On 5/13/2016 11:36 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>>> - RTC and backup SRAM on a coin CR2032 cell type
>>
>> I assume you mean BR2032?  The CR2032 is barely commercial temperature
>> which would make your industrial temperature range pointless.  But I
>> suppose it is replaceable if the user really needs industrial range.
>
> You got me here. BR for extended range.
> Yes, it is replaceable. The socket can accept 2016, 2025 and 2032 sizes.
>
>> Why "mini" rather than "micro".  I barely have any mini-USB connectors
>> anymore.
>
> I wanted to differentiate the real device port (on the mini-usb) from the
> "only power" micro-usb.

Just my personal opinion, but I have been purging mini-USB cables from 
my inventory to cut down on the confusion.  I would not find it at all 
difficult to know, "This is the power port and *this* is the data port". 
  Finding the right *black* cable in the pile of *black* USB cables I 
have is a royal PITA.  Worse is trying to keep track of the one 
remaining mini-USB cable just for this unit.  In my opinion, this is 
just one step away from using a custom connector.  If I had this board, 
I would likely attach the cable in some way to make it captive to the 
board.


>> What does the processor boot from?
>
> In internal flash there will be a bootloader that will load the e8th system
> from the serial flash in the SDRAM. So I think the answer is: it will boot
> from the serial flash even if the processor will start initially in the
> internal flash.
>
> The 8MB serial flash will be partitioned in two:
> 4MB for the 8th image
> 4MB for a little file system for internal usage (config files, "eeprom",
> resident application files ...)
> The SD card is "removable". One usage is to update the 8th system itself
> or load applications. Other usage is to have "unlimited storage" for
> applications.

So the processor comes with a boot loader for the serial flash?  Or will 
you be programming a boot loader into the SoC flash to boot from the 
serial flash?  I'm guessing it is the latter.


>> Is the "micro-sub" a "micro-USB"?
>
> Typo.
>
>> Is there a way to connect a specific camera?  Having to hack up a camera
>> cable is pretty inconvenient.
>
> All I did was to make sure the signals for camera are there at the headers.
> I never worked with a camera...

Ok, so connecting a camera would be pretty painful.  I haven't worked 
with them either, but the rPi camera has a fine pitch FPC and would 
require an interface board to connect to the headers.

I wonder if this CPU has enough umph to do much usefully with a camera 
or HDMI display.  I guess it will support some basic modes of operation 
which would be fine for embedded work.  An SoC like the one used on the 
rPi 3 has lots of horsepower and can do lots of things with the camera. 
  I've bought one, but haven't connected it yet.


>> I believe the price will discourage most hobby usage.  It may do well in
>> the commercial market.  How will it be marketed?
>
> Probably you are right about hobby usage. As for the marketing, ask Ron :)

So you are making the board without a marketing plan?

-- 

Rick C

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#47122

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> I have been purging mini-USB cables from my inventory to cut down on
> the confusion.

Mini-USB seems to have given way to micro but this seems unfortunate.
Every micro USB connector I've seen is SMT while mini tends to be
through-hold.  That means micro connectors break off the PCB after
you've plugged/unplugged the cable enough times, probably the most
common cause of cell phone failures.  I used to fume against the variety
of incompatible power connectors on phones, but standardizing on micro
USB instead of something more rugged comes close to worsening the
problem.

I remember the original Adafruit Trinket board chose mini USB over micro
for this reason, though they eventually gave in and switched to micro.

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#47125

Am Sat, 14 May 2016 12:53:42 -0700 schrieb Paul Rubin:

> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> I have been purging mini-USB cables from my inventory to cut down on
>> the confusion.
> 
> Mini-USB seems to have given way to micro but this seems unfortunate.
> Every micro USB connector I've seen is SMT while mini tends to be
> through-hold.  That means micro connectors break off the PCB after
> you've plugged/unplugged the cable enough times, probably the most
> common cause of cell phone failures.  I used to fume against the variety
> of incompatible power connectors on phones, but standardizing on micro
> USB instead of something more rugged comes close to worsening the
> problem.

I've several boards (from Ti and ST) with micro-USB here, and they have 
four holes to keep the connector on the board (all four holes are ground, 
the signal connectors are SMD). So it's actually possible to have those 
connectors robust.

The USB board of my Galaxy Note 2 (soon 4 years old) also is made that 
way:

http://www.meintrendyhandy.de/shop/samsung-galaxy-note-97499p.html

Here you can see one of the more robust ones in all details (from LG this 
time):

http://stellatech.com/lg-gw300-ladebuchse-micro-usb-
connector,a,de,810149.html

So it is possible to have a robust micro USB, but maybe some 
manufacturers prefer planned obsolescence.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#47131

On 5/14/2016 3:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> I have been purging mini-USB cables from my inventory to cut down on
>> the confusion.
>
> Mini-USB seems to have given way to micro but this seems unfortunate.
> Every micro USB connector I've seen is SMT while mini tends to be
> through-hold.  That means micro connectors break off the PCB after
> you've plugged/unplugged the cable enough times, probably the most
> common cause of cell phone failures.  I used to fume against the variety
> of incompatible power connectors on phones, but standardizing on micro
> USB instead of something more rugged comes close to worsening the
> problem.

Saying the microUSB connectors fail is not the same thing as they fail 
too often.  I have any number of microUSB devices and not one has failed 
except for a card adapter where the connector got bent!  Even with that 
it worked for some time longer.  Likewise, full size USB connectors on a 
laptop worked loose.  One failed and the other became intermittent.  I 
had a fully mechanically mounted power connector fail as well.  I don't 
see where the microUSB connectors are any less reliable in real world 
usage.


> I remember the original Adafruit Trinket board chose mini USB over micro
> for this reason, though they eventually gave in and switched to micro.

Resistance is futile...

-- 

Rick C

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#47135

I used a micro-usb connector that has four through-hole pins for fixing. Only
the signal pins are smt.

OTOH, mini-usb is hardly dying. All Nucleo boards have the st-link connector
mini. Same for Discovery boards. Freescale Freedom boards also use mini.
Yes, it's not the general consumer market, but it's the market for development
and evaluation boards for embedded.

The micro is the future probably, but for now mini usb is quite ok I think.

Personnaly I need mini-usb and full-usb type-b cables all day long. I have
quite recent silabs dongles and usb-serial converters that have full type-b
connectors... The silabs usb-serial converters I particularly like because they
are faster (and less latency) than the FTDI based ones.

I even didn't have a need for micro cables until recently, when I bought
two Tiva launchpads (123 and 129) and a FTDI FT900 development board. They
indeed have only micro usb connectors.

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#47143

On 5/15/2016 12:46 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
> I used a micro-usb connector that has four through-hole pins for fixing. Only
> the signal pins are smt.
>
> OTOH, mini-usb is hardly dying. All Nucleo boards have the st-link connector
> mini. Same for Discovery boards. Freescale Freedom boards also use mini.
> Yes, it's not the general consumer market, but it's the market for development
> and evaluation boards for embedded.
>
> The micro is the future probably, but for now mini usb is quite ok I think.
>
> Personnaly I need mini-usb and full-usb type-b cables all day long. I have
> quite recent silabs dongles and usb-serial converters that have full type-b
> connectors... The silabs usb-serial converters I particularly like because they
> are faster (and less latency) than the FTDI based ones.
>
> I even didn't have a need for micro cables until recently, when I bought
> two Tiva launchpads (123 and 129) and a FTDI FT900 development board. They
> indeed have only micro usb connectors.

I think your list proves my point.  The list of development boards with 
a Micro-USB connector would be as long as my ARM (pun intended).  Let's 
start with all the millions of Raspberry Pi devices shipped each year... 
all of the TI development boards I have used or considered using, all 
the FPGA development boards I have used or considered using,...

Unfortunately I do have one of the ST low priced eval boards so do have 
a device using the Mini-USB connector, durn!  I didn't realize that.  I 
have one cable left that has the type A on one end and both a Mini-USB 
and a Micro-USB so I can still power the odd device if I have to.  Darn, 
I don't have it with me today.  So no Mini-USB devices will be getting 
power.

While looking up these connectors I found on the Wikipedia page, "These 
include the now-deprecated[63] (i.e. de-certified but standardized) 
Mini-A and Mini-AB connectors".  I wonder how much longer the Mini-B 
connector will be supported?

Here is another tidbit from Wikipedia, "The micro plug design is rated 
for at least 10,000 connect-disconnect cycles, which is more than the 
mini plug design.[7][69] The micro connector is also designed to reduce 
the mechanical wear on the device".  So clearly some thought has gone 
into the gazillions of devices made each year with the Micro-USB connector.

The only advantage I see of the Mini-USB connector is that it is 
slightly easier to plug in versus the Micro-USB.  But it has been so 
long since I've used a Mini-USB connector that I'm not certain of that.

I now feel even more justified in my purging of Mini-USB cables.

-- 

Rick C

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#47146

> While looking up these connectors I found on the Wikipedia page, "These 
> include the now-deprecated[63] (i.e. de-certified but standardized) 
> Mini-A and Mini-AB connectors".  I wonder how much longer the Mini-B 
> connector will be supported?

Mini-A and Mini-AB was hardly used on equipments. Type-A, Type-B, and Mini-B
are very present on all sorts of things since the usb was invented.

> I now feel even more justified in my purging of Mini-USB cables.

Do whatever you have to do...
In any case, if you ever get an e8th board, you can power it with a micro-usb
cable for sure :D

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#47147

On 5/15/2016 10:26 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> While looking up these connectors I found on the Wikipedia page, "These
>> include the now-deprecated[63] (i.e. de-certified but standardized)
>> Mini-A and Mini-AB connectors".  I wonder how much longer the Mini-B
>> connector will be supported?
>
> Mini-A and Mini-AB was hardly used on equipments. Type-A, Type-B, and Mini-B
> are very present on all sorts of things since the usb was invented.

I think that is our point of disagreement.  I find the Mini-USB to be 
barely used anymore.  Any equipment I consider buying will be rejected 
if it has a Mini-USB connector rather than a Micro-USB.  That doesn't 
disqualify much.


>> I now feel even more justified in my purging of Mini-USB cables.
>
> Do whatever you have to do...
> In any case, if you ever get an e8th board, you can power it with a micro-usb
> cable for sure :D

Which *is* the power connector.  It is communicating with it that will 
require a special cable, no?  And that is my point.  I hate special 
cables.  At this point the only difference between the Mini-USB cable 
needed for comms on this board and the "special" USB cable for a camera 
I have is the camera cable came with the camera.  I'd need to buy one 
for this board.

-- 

Rick C

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#47150

> I think that is our point of disagreement.  I find the Mini-USB to be 
> barely used anymore.  Any equipment I consider buying will be rejected 
> if it has a Mini-USB connector rather than a Micro-USB.  That doesn't 
> disqualify much.

So you won't use ST boards or Freescale ones... just because they have 
mini-usb?

> Which *is* the power connector.  It is communicating with it that will 
> require a special cable, no?  And that is my point.  I hate special 
> cables.  At this point the only difference between the Mini-USB cable 
> needed for comms on this board and the "special" USB cable for a camera 
> I have is the camera cable came with the camera.  I'd need to buy one 
> for this board.

So you say you don't have any mini cable and you need to buy one just for
this board... If the board will come with a mini cable, would you buy the
board then?

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#47161

On 5/15/2016 12:20 PM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> I think that is our point of disagreement.  I find the Mini-USB to be
>> barely used anymore.  Any equipment I consider buying will be rejected
>> if it has a Mini-USB connector rather than a Micro-USB.  That doesn't
>> disqualify much.
>
> So you won't use ST boards or Freescale ones... just because they have
> mini-usb?

What do either of those boards do that other MCU boards won't do?


>> Which *is* the power connector.  It is communicating with it that will
>> require a special cable, no?  And that is my point.  I hate special
>> cables.  At this point the only difference between the Mini-USB cable
>> needed for comms on this board and the "special" USB cable for a camera
>> I have is the camera cable came with the camera.  I'd need to buy one
>> for this board.
>
> So you say you don't have any mini cable and you need to buy one just for
> this board... If the board will come with a mini cable, would you buy the
> board then?

I was using hyperbole to make a point, I have one cable with both 
Micro-USB and Mini-USB... just in case.  But your question is a 
different issue.  I likely won't buy this board because I don't see 
where it is much different from many other MCU boards, including the 
ones I have.  The need for a Mini-USB connector gives it a slightly 
negative rating rather than neutral.

I'm not trying to be a PITA.  I'm sorry if I'm bugging you.  I'm just 
trying to be honest.  I think the use of the Mini-USB cable to 
differentiate the power connector from the comms connector is a mistake. 
  It requires the users to have *yet* another cable type rather than 
giving the user credit for being able to keep two ports separate and 
just reaching for the very common Micro-USB cables laying around the lab.

I guess I've put enough energy into this.  Thanks.

-- 

Rick C

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#47180

luni, 16 mai 2016, 00:17:02 UTC+3, rickman a scris:
> On 5/15/2016 12:20 PM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
> >> I think that is our point of disagreement.  I find the Mini-USB to be
> >> barely used anymore.  Any equipment I consider buying will be rejected
> >> if it has a Mini-USB connector rather than a Micro-USB.  That doesn't
> >> disqualify much.
> >
> > So you won't use ST boards or Freescale ones... just because they have
> > mini-usb?
> 
> What do either of those boards do that other MCU boards won't do?
> 
> 
> >> Which *is* the power connector.  It is communicating with it that will
> >> require a special cable, no?  And that is my point.  I hate special
> >> cables.  At this point the only difference between the Mini-USB cable
> >> needed for comms on this board and the "special" USB cable for a camera
> >> I have is the camera cable came with the camera.  I'd need to buy one
> >> for this board.
> >
> > So you say you don't have any mini cable and you need to buy one just for
> > this board... If the board will come with a mini cable, would you buy the
> > board then?
> 
> I was using hyperbole to make a point, I have one cable with both 
> Micro-USB and Mini-USB... just in case.  But your question is a 
> different issue.  I likely won't buy this board because I don't see 
> where it is much different from many other MCU boards, including the 
> ones I have.  The need for a Mini-USB connector gives it a slightly 
> negative rating rather than neutral.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a PITA.  I'm sorry if I'm bugging you.  I'm just 
> trying to be honest.  I think the use of the Mini-USB cable to 
> differentiate the power connector from the comms connector is a mistake. 
>   It requires the users to have *yet* another cable type rather than 
> giving the user credit for being able to keep two ports separate and 
> just reaching for the very common Micro-USB cables laying around the lab.
> 
> I guess I've put enough energy into this.  Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Rick C

Fair enough.
However, mini-usb on this board is logical. It's a ST cpu based board
and if you want to debug it at low level, you need a ST-LINK dongle or
an embedded st-link interface on any Nucleo or Discovery boards. ALL
are mini-usb...
For plain flashing you also need a ST-LINK, although it's possible to
program it with the factory DFU bootloader on the usb device interface
(without any dongle) on the ... mini-usb :)

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