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e8th prototype hardware!

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  e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 12:01 +0300
    Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 09:03 -0700
      Re: e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 19:19 +0300
        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-12 12:44 -0500
          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 20:48 +0300
            Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 13:57 -0400
              Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 11:04 -0700
          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 10:53 -0700
            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-12 13:43 -0500
              Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 18:14 -0400
                Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 15:47 -0700
                  Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 19:14 -0400
                    Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-12 23:38 -0700
                      Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-12 23:59 -0700
                        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 00:16 -0700
                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 10:31 +0300
                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-13 01:23 -0700
                            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 02:08 -0700
                      Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 10:42 -0400
                        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 08:36 -0700
                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-13 11:57 -0400
                            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-14 12:53 -0700
                              Re: e8th prototype hardware! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-05-14 21:41 +0000
                              Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 00:08 -0400
                                Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-14 21:46 -0700
                                  Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 09:37 -0400
                                    Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 07:26 -0700
                                      Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 11:26 -0400
                                        Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 09:20 -0700
                                          Re: e8th prototype hardware! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 17:17 -0400
                                            Re: e8th prototype hardware! Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 22:10 -0700

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#47039 — e8th prototype hardware!

Our EE has the boards now, and is testing to make sure they function
nominally. This is the first e8th hardware:

http://8th-dev.com/forum/index.php/topic,923.msg4892.html#msg4892

Next step is getting the boot-loader correctly running.  Then it's my
turn to get e8th up and running on the HW.

Exciting times!

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#47043

Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> writes:
> This is the first e8th hardware:
> http://8th-dev.com/forum/index.php/topic,923.msg4892.html#msg4892

Cool!  Are specs for the board available yet?

> Next step is getting the boot-loader correctly running.  Then it's my
> turn to get e8th up and running on the HW.

Will it be sold as a general purpose development board, independently
from 8th?  No slight intended to 8th, but the board looks attractive for
various other software environments as well, such as micropython,
Hedgehog Lisp, eLua, etc.

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#47044

On 12/05/2016 19:03, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Will it be sold as a general purpose development board, independently
> from 8th?  No slight intended to 8th, but the board looks attractive for
> various other software environments as well, such as micropython,
> Hedgehog Lisp, eLua, etc.

We do plan on making the bootloader source available, so the hardware
itself could be used with any ARM code desired, not just 8th.

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#47047

On 5/12/2016 11:19 AM, Ron Aaron wrote:
>
>
> On 12/05/2016 19:03, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> Will it be sold as a general purpose development board, independently
>> from 8th?  No slight intended to 8th, but the board looks attractive for
>> various other software environments as well, such as micropython,
>> Hedgehog Lisp, eLua, etc.
>
> We do plan on making the bootloader source available, so the hardware
> itself could be used with any ARM code desired, not just 8th.
>
Will 8th be running on this hardware bare with no OS? Or will it have 
some sort of Linux? I see advantages with both ways but many times 
having Linux is way overkill that just makes a board slow.

-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#47048

On 12/05/2016 20:44, Cecil Bayona wrote:

> Will 8th be running on this hardware bare with no OS? Or will it have
> some sort of Linux? I see advantages with both ways but many times
> having Linux is way overkill that just makes a board slow.

Bare-hardware.

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#47050

On 5/12/2016 1:48 PM, Ron Aaron wrote:
>
>
> On 12/05/2016 20:44, Cecil Bayona wrote:
>
>> Will 8th be running on this hardware bare with no OS? Or will it have
>> some sort of Linux? I see advantages with both ways but many times
>> having Linux is way overkill that just makes a board slow.
>
> Bare-hardware.

Which CPU is this using?

-- 

Rick C

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#47051

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> Which CPU is this using?
http://8th-dev.com/forum/index.php/topic,923.msg4892.html :

"The board will be based on the powerful STM32F756 Cortex-M7
microcontroller.  It will have:..."

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#47049

Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
> Will 8th be running on this hardware bare with no OS? Or will it have
> some sort of Linux? I see advantages with both ways but many times
> having Linux is way overkill that just makes a board slow.

The CPU involved doesn't have the type of MMU that Linux normally wants.
So I'd be surprised if it ran Linux.  The M7 is basically a beefed up
M4: there are various RTOS's available and 8th might provide its own.
The hardware also implements simple segment-based memory protection to
prevent subsystems in the software from clobbering each other.

I do have to wonder what the attractions of this board will be, compared
to existing M7 evaluation boards.  E.g. this board is $50 at digikey and
looks amazing:

http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF261641

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#47052

On 5/12/2016 12:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>> Will 8th be running on this hardware bare with no OS? Or will it have
>> some sort of Linux? I see advantages with both ways but many times
>> having Linux is way overkill that just makes a board slow.
>
> The CPU involved doesn't have the type of MMU that Linux normally wants.
> So I'd be surprised if it ran Linux.  The M7 is basically a beefed up
> M4: there are various RTOS's available and 8th might provide its own.
> The hardware also implements simple segment-based memory protection to
> prevent subsystems in the software from clobbering each other.
>
> I do have to wonder what the attractions of this board will be, compared
> to existing M7 evaluation boards.  E.g. this board is $50 at digikey and
> looks amazing:
>
> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF261641
>
I have one of those boards on a saved order to Mouser that I will 
purchase later today. There is a group that will be using that board to 
create a Software Define Radio, it's a very powerful board that is 
reasonable considering the hardware provided.


-- 
Cecil - k5nwa

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#47058

On 5/12/2016 2:43 PM, Cecil Bayona wrote:
> On 5/12/2016 12:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> writes:
>>> Will 8th be running on this hardware bare with no OS? Or will it have
>>> some sort of Linux? I see advantages with both ways but many times
>>> having Linux is way overkill that just makes a board slow.
>>
>> The CPU involved doesn't have the type of MMU that Linux normally wants.
>> So I'd be surprised if it ran Linux.  The M7 is basically a beefed up
>> M4: there are various RTOS's available and 8th might provide its own.
>> The hardware also implements simple segment-based memory protection to
>> prevent subsystems in the software from clobbering each other.
>>
>> I do have to wonder what the attractions of this board will be, compared
>> to existing M7 evaluation boards.  E.g. this board is $50 at digikey and
>> looks amazing:
>>
>> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF261641
>>
> I have one of those boards on a saved order to Mouser that I will
> purchase later today. There is a group that will be using that board to
> create a Software Define Radio, it's a very powerful board that is
> reasonable considering the hardware provided.

Certainly the price is not bad, but higher than a Raspberry Pi.  There 
are so many processor boards out there, I wonder what made them choose 
this board as opposed to the many others?  I don't see where this M7 is 
much faster than most M4 processors.  Much of the literature I found 
talks about how the M7 won't be any worse than the M4 in power 
efficiency rather than how it will be better.  The instruction set is 
the same and the math capabilities are the same.  The clock speeds are 
about the same.  What's "beefed up" about it?

"You might think that this pipeline feature set evolution would also 
lead to faster clock speeds (at the cost of mis-prediction stalls) by 
virtue of its deepening, and according to Ensergueix and Johnson, you'd 
be right... but only eventually. That's because the processes that 
Cortex-M7-based microcontrollers will be built on must also support 
embedded flash memory, given the now-common customer requirement for 
in-system updateable firmware capabilities, and are therefore several 
generations removed from the leading edge lithographies used for 
Cortex-A-based SoCs."

-- 

Rick C

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#47059

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>>> this board is $50 at digikey and looks amazing:
>>> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF261641
> Certainly the price is not bad, but higher than a Raspberry Pi.  

This board has a 4.3" touchscreen included!  You can't get that with
a raspberry pi for $50.

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#47060

On 5/12/2016 6:47 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> this board is $50 at digikey and looks amazing:
>>>> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF261641
>> Certainly the price is not bad, but higher than a Raspberry Pi.
>
> This board has a 4.3" touchscreen included!  You can't get that with
> a raspberry pi for $50.

Yes, if you need a touchscreen that's a great deal.

-- 

Rick C

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#47073

Here are some insights about the e8th board:

- Completely industrial temp (-40C..+85C)
- 3.3V switching power supply from 5V input (90-95% efficiency)
- RTC and backup SRAM on a coin CR2032 cell type
- CPU is STM32F756 (with crypto hardware) at 200MHz
- SDRAM 8Mx16 (16MBytes) at 100MHz (on the back side, right under the cpu).
- 8MBytes quad-spi serial flash.
- usb device on a mini-usb. 8th REPL basically.
- usb host on a regular Type-A. For flash drives, RF dongles,...
- 4bit sd card interface on a micro-sd socket.
- ethernet 10/100.

Power supply input: 5VDC only. Can come from the micro-sub, from the mini-usb
or from headers. Micro-usb connector is just for convenience. It doesn't 
have the usb data signals, just the power signals.

There is an user button and an user led.

80+ signals on the headers. Every gpio not used by the on board resources
is routed to headers. The inner rows are Arduino compatible, although you
must use 3.3V shields (R3). The free gpios on the headers can be arranged
for tft lcd, camera, lot of uarts, spi, i2c. Not every peripheral can be
used concurently of course.

The board is not something very special. It is intended to be a simple design
easy to be replicated for any custom application. The prototype you see
in the picture is two week old: one week the design, one week the pcb
production (4 layers). 2 hours of manual soldering. A good engineer can make
a custom design quite easily. The schematic of the board will be provided, 
along with the sources for the bootloader.

Intended usage:
- professional industrial grade applications (with custom shields)
- prototyping for a custom design.
- hobby usage, why not :)

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#47074

Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes:
> Here are some insights about the e8th board: ..

Oh cool, thanks for this info.  Are you involved with the hw design?

> - Completely industrial temp (-40C..+85C)

Nice!  Despite the name "raspberry pi" you are not supposed to actually
bake them, i.e. the rpi's temp range is much lower.

> - RTC and backup SRAM on a coin CR2032 cell type

This is important for lots of things and I can't understand why so many
otherwise good boards omit it

> - SDRAM 8Mx16 (16MBytes) at 100MHz (on the back side, right under the cpu).
> - 8MBytes quad-spi serial flash.

Cool, any reason to not use a 16mb qspi flash?  They are cheap...  Also
is there any eeprom in the system?  Either on the chip or off.  Even a
smallish amount like a few dozen bytes can be very useful.

> - ethernet 10/100.

Really needed?  I guess it can be useful, and can be turned off to save
power.

> Power supply input: 5VDC only.

Hmm, lipo power would have been useful.

The $0.64 question: consider the loop

  : test 0  begin 1+ again ;

or the 8th equivalent.  I.e. just count upwards forever.

How much power does the board use while this loop is running?  What
about with heavier processing such as crypto or floating point?

> There is an user button and an user led.

Nice.

> The board is not something very special. It is intended to be a simple
> design

I realize these 2 comments are exactly the opposite of each other, but:
1) there are so many boards in this category, why bother with another?

   and

2) this board seems nicely thought out, and gets lots of simple things
right that other boards manage to miss.

Anyway, well done, I could imagine using them for various purposes.

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#47075

> Oh cool, thanks for this info.  Are you involved with the hw design?

Yup.

> > - 8MBytes quad-spi serial flash.
> 
> Cool, any reason to not use a 16mb qspi flash?  They are cheap...  Also
> is there any eeprom in the system?  Either on the chip or off.  Even a
> smallish amount like a few dozen bytes can be very useful.

Last time I checked, the 16MBytes was 5x priced :O
BTW, we talk about mega bytes not bits, don't we?
Nevertheless, the board can be stuffed with many memory size options.
The 8MB qspi flash and 16MB SDRAM seems to be the best compromise these
days.


> > - ethernet 10/100.
> 
> Really needed?  I guess it can be useful, and can be turned off to save
> power.

Of course.

> > Power supply input: 5VDC only.
> 
> Hmm, lipo power would have been useful.

I can state it like many others: lipo input may be possible (single cell). 
But there is no real support for it, like a charger or some
kind of other power management.


> The $0.64 question: consider the loop
> 
>   : test 0  begin 1+ again ;
> 
> or the 8th equivalent.  I.e. just count upwards forever.
> 
> How much power does the board use while this loop is running?  What
> about with heavier processing such as crypto or floating point?

We'll see. I can't have any clue right now. It's too early.

> I realize these 2 comments are exactly the opposite of each other, but:
> 1) there are so many boards in this category, why bother with another?
> 
>    and
> 
> 2) this board seems nicely thought out, and gets lots of simple things
> right that other boards manage to miss.

Exactly :D

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#47076

On 13/05/2016 10:16, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
>> Oh cool, thanks for this info.  Are you involved with the hw design?
> 
> Yup

I'd just like to say that it's been a pleasure working with Raimond on
this project.

>> 2) this board seems nicely thought out, and gets lots of simple things
>> right that other boards manage to miss.
> 
> Exactly :D

We hope so :o

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#47078

Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes:
> Last time I checked, the 16MBytes was 5x priced :O
> BTW, we talk about mega bytes not bits, don't we?

Yes, 128 mbit, I didn't realize there was such a cost difference!  Now I
wonder why the dragonfly board didn't use a 64mbit part instead of 128.
Anyway, for the 8th board it doesn't matter, since there is the
"infinite" SD card slot.  In fact is there a particular reason to use a
micro socket instead of full sized, given that the board is fairly
large?

>> How much power does the board use while this loop is running? 
> We'll see. I can't have any clue right now. It's too early.

Hmm, ok, well I'll be interested in seeing this when available.

Is there a way to decrease the system clock speed to save power?
I.e. not dynamically but with some kind of boot setting or jumper.
To misquote someone, 640 kilohertz ought to be enough for everyone :).

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#47079

> Yes, 128 mbit, I didn't realize there was such a cost difference!  Now I
> wonder why the dragonfly board didn't use a 64mbit part instead of 128.
> Anyway, for the 8th board it doesn't matter, since there is the
> "infinite" SD card slot.  In fact is there a particular reason to use a
> micro socket instead of full sized, given that the board is fairly
> large?

Full size SD card is really big. It might have space on the back side though...
I wanted to have the availability of the micro-sd cards. My personal
experience with sd cards is that you always get micro-sd cards, and
have to use sd card adapters for the full-sized sockets.
The micro-sd socket is not cheap. It's a high quality push-push one.
In fact, the board probably doesn't use the cheapest components. This
was not the main idea.

> Is there a way to decrease the system clock speed to save power?
> I.e. not dynamically but with some kind of boot setting or jumper.
> To misquote someone, 640 kilohertz ought to be enough for everyone :).

LOL

The CPU can be run down to 30MHz, with some peripherals clocks way lower.
A very simple mode can be a 4/ from the 200MHz (so 50MHz cpu with 4/ also
on many other clocks, 50MHz or 25MHz for sdram) while still maintaining 
the 48MHz needed for usb.

For much more power reduction there is the ethernet to be disabled (although
the PHY that I've chosen is one of the best regarding low power consumption)
and SDRAM. The problem with SDRAM is that 8th won't work on the internal 
320K ram only... 

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#47083

On 5/13/2016 2:38 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote:
> Here are some insights about the e8th board:
>
> - Completely industrial temp (-40C..+85C)
> - 3.3V switching power supply from 5V input (90-95% efficiency)

What is your power input connector?  I'm hoping it is a micro-USB. 
That's the lingua franca in power connectors up to 2 A these days. 
Opps, I see this is answered below.


> - RTC and backup SRAM on a coin CR2032 cell type

I assume you mean BR2032?  The CR2032 is barely commercial temperature 
which would make your industrial temperature range pointless.  But I 
suppose it is replaceable if the user really needs industrial range.


> - CPU is STM32F756 (with crypto hardware) at 200MHz
> - SDRAM 8Mx16 (16MBytes) at 100MHz (on the back side, right under the cpu).
> - 8MBytes quad-spi serial flash.
> - usb device on a mini-usb. 8th REPL basically.

Why "mini" rather than "micro".  I barely have any mini-USB connectors 
anymore.


> - usb host on a regular Type-A. For flash drives, RF dongles,...
> - 4bit sd card interface on a micro-sd socket.

What does the processor boot from?


> - ethernet 10/100.
>
> Power supply input: 5VDC only. Can come from the micro-sub, from the mini-usb
> or from headers. Micro-usb connector is just for convenience. It doesn't
> have the usb data signals, just the power signals.

Is the "micro-sub" a "micro-USB"?


> There is an user button and an user led.
>
> 80+ signals on the headers. Every gpio not used by the on board resources
> is routed to headers. The inner rows are Arduino compatible, although you
> must use 3.3V shields (R3). The free gpios on the headers can be arranged
> for tft lcd, camera, lot of uarts, spi, i2c. Not every peripheral can be
> used concurently of course.

Is there a way to connect a specific camera?  Having to hack up a camera 
cable is pretty inconvenient.


> The board is not something very special. It is intended to be a simple design
> easy to be replicated for any custom application. The prototype you see
> in the picture is two week old: one week the design, one week the pcb
> production (4 layers). 2 hours of manual soldering. A good engineer can make
> a custom design quite easily. The schematic of the board will be provided,
> along with the sources for the bootloader.
>
> Intended usage:
> - professional industrial grade applications (with custom shields)
> - prototyping for a custom design.
> - hobby usage, why not :)

I believe the price will discourage most hobby usage.  It may do well in 
the commercial market.  How will it be marketed?

-- 

Rick C

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#47087

> > - RTC and backup SRAM on a coin CR2032 cell type
> 
> I assume you mean BR2032?  The CR2032 is barely commercial temperature 
> which would make your industrial temperature range pointless.  But I 
> suppose it is replaceable if the user really needs industrial range.

You got me here. BR for extended range.
Yes, it is replaceable. The socket can accept 2016, 2025 and 2032 sizes.

> Why "mini" rather than "micro".  I barely have any mini-USB connectors 
> anymore.

I wanted to differentiate the real device port (on the mini-usb) from the
"only power" micro-usb. 

> What does the processor boot from?

In internal flash there will be a bootloader that will load the e8th system
from the serial flash in the SDRAM. So I think the answer is: it will boot
from the serial flash even if the processor will start initially in the
internal flash.

The 8MB serial flash will be partitioned in two:
4MB for the 8th image
4MB for a little file system for internal usage (config files, "eeprom", 
resident application files ...)
The SD card is "removable". One usage is to update the 8th system itself
or load applications. Other usage is to have "unlimited storage" for 
applications.

> Is the "micro-sub" a "micro-USB"?

Typo.
 
> Is there a way to connect a specific camera?  Having to hack up a camera 
> cable is pretty inconvenient.

All I did was to make sure the signals for camera are there at the headers.
I never worked with a camera...

> I believe the price will discourage most hobby usage.  It may do well in 
> the commercial market.  How will it be marketed?

Probably you are right about hobby usage. As for the marketing, ask Ron :)

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