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Canon Cat Forth Source

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  Canon Cat Forth Source Mux <Yvo.Zoer@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 12:51 -0700
    Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-04 14:32 -0700
      Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Mux <Yvo.Zoer@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 14:44 -0700
        Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-04 15:31 -0700
          Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Mux <Yvo.Zoer@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 20:50 -0700
          Re: Canon Cat Forth Source hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-04 23:52 -0700
            Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Mux <Yvo.Zoer@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 06:52 -0700
              Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-09-05 16:26 +0200
              Re: Canon Cat Forth Source hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-05 21:11 -0700
                Re: Canon Cat Forth Source dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-09-06 07:17 +0000
                  Re: Canon Cat Forth Source rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 15:14 -0400
                  Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-08 14:31 -0700
                Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-08 14:31 -0700
                  Re: Canon Cat Forth Source "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-09-08 23:14 +0100
                    Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-08 15:30 -0700
                      Re: Canon Cat Forth Source hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-08 20:48 -0700
                      Re: Canon Cat Forth Source "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-09-09 14:53 +0100
      Re: Canon Cat Forth Source "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2015-09-05 10:31 -0400
      Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-09-07 10:49 +0200
        Re: Canon Cat Forth Source hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-07 11:18 -0700
          Re: Canon Cat Forth Source rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 15:35 -0400
          Re: Canon Cat Forth Source "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 20:15 +0000
            Re: Canon Cat Forth Source dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-09-07 21:44 +0000
              Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-09-08 00:50 +0200
              Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-09-08 01:47 +0200
          Re: Canon Cat Forth Source dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-09-07 21:36 +0000
    Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-05 09:13 -0700
    Re: Canon Cat Forth Source Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-09-07 13:51 +0200
      Re: Canon Cat Forth Source hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-07 08:32 -0700
        Re: Canon Cat Forth Source "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 19:43 +0000
          Re: Canon Cat Forth Source borota@gmail.com - 2015-09-07 12:49 -0700
        Re: Canon Cat Forth Source "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 22:00 +0000

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#41828

On 9/7/2015 2:18 PM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Nowadays, the GUI seems to be the only option for a user-interface,
> but I remember I time when it was just one of several options, and
> not the best in anybody's opinion (other than Steve Jobs). In the
> 1980s, I considered the GUI to be only for graphical artists --- they
> could drag icons around on their drawing, similar to how they
> previously did cut-and-paste using an Exacto-Knife and bottle of glue

Way back before the PC was popular, we were drawing schematics with 
pencils and had drafting departments full of people (along with an 
illustration department).  I suggested that my work could be expedited 
by printing up labels (yes, cut labels had been invented already) with 
common component symbols.  I showed my boss my crude hand drawn and 
Xeroxed labels and asked for money to buy more labels and get the 
drafting department to draw up masters to Xerox onto them.  He took my 
folder and put it between some books standing on his desk and said he 
would get to it.  I never saw them again and went back to my pencils and 
erasers.


> --- besides that, most of them were semi-literate at best and were
> never going to master a command-line (they all declared themselves to
> be "right-brain thinkers" and despised text despite the fact that
> written language is humanity's greatest invention). In 1987 I did not
> predict that every computer and every piece of software would have a
> GUI within 5 years --- I still think of the GUI as being a throw-back
> to the pictures that cavemen drew on the walls of their caves in
> pre-literacy days.

Now you are getting snippy.  I used a layout program called FreePCB 
which works well for the layout.  But there are various functions that 
aren't so easy like generating the XYRS file.  Someone produced an 
ancillary program to do this requiring a command file to make it run. 
Another program with another command file would produce a fab drawing. 
These two programs were so hard to use that it was nearly impossible for 
me to use them 6 months later.

I can work with a command line, but I'm no fan of them.


> On a related note --- we now have dual-core 64-bit computers, but a
> significant portion of the processing power is dedicated to the GUI,
> with very little being used for actual computing --- that is like
> using a jet plane to haul garbage!

Now you are showing how little you know about PCs rather than producing 
any useful commentary.

-- 

Rick

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#41833

hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

> On a related note --- we now have dual-core
> 64-bit computers, but a significant portion
> of the processing power is dedicated to the
> GUI, with very little being used for actual
> computing --- that is like using a jet plane
> to haul garbage!

If you want to do some real, heavy-duty computing with
both cores, try video transcoding.

Both ffmpeg and MEncoder can be instructed to use all of
the cores that you have.

I run either of them in the DOS prompt.  Task Manager shows
that the program is using most of the processing power
that the computer has.  This can go on for an hour or more,
especially if a 2-pass transcoding is being done.

Nothing uses the processor more heavily than video transcoding.

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#41838

"WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> wrote:
> hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> On a related note --- we now have dual-core
>> 64-bit computers, but a significant portion
>> of the processing power is dedicated to the
>> GUI, with very little being used for actual
>> computing --- that is like using a jet plane
>> to haul garbage!
> 
> If you want to do some real, heavy-duty computing with
> both cores, try video transcoding.
> 
> Both ffmpeg and MEncoder can be instructed to use all of
> the cores that you have.
> 
> I run either of them in the DOS prompt.  Task Manager shows
> that the program is using most of the processing power
> that the computer has.  This can go on for an hour or more,
> especially if a 2-pass transcoding is being done.
> 
> Nothing uses the processor more heavily than video transcoding.

There is no such thing as "DOS prompt", unless you're a big fan of Windows
98.

-- 
dunno

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#41842

Op Mon, 7 Sep 2015 21:44:28 +0000 (UTC) schreef dunno:

<snipped WJ and HA drivel>
> 
> There is no such thing as "DOS prompt", unless you're a big fan of Windows
> 98.

DOSEMU under Linux has a DOS prompt. On Pentium or Raspberry Pi.
DOSBOX under Windows has a DOS prompt.
Windows XP in Virtual Box.

Yes, Windows doesn't anymore. But in a command window Vista I can still run
16 bit DOS programs.

groet Coos

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#41843

dunno wrote:
> There is no such thing as "DOS prompt", unless you're a big fan of Windows
> 98.

Don't feed the trolls here.  The confusion of cmd.exe with the "DOS prompt" 
is intentional by Microsoft - cmd.exe is just as bad as a shell as MS-DOS 
command.com used to be.

Recently, with PowerShell, there's a much more capable shell available, but 
all those alienated by command.com and cmd.exe won't even try it.

Anyways, for all people who like to use the power of a command line, Linux 
is a better environment than Windows, not just because bash is a better 
shell (I wouldn't say it's actually better than PowerShell; given that bash 
is more than 20 years old, no suprise), but there's actually a huge number 
of programs you can use from the shell prompt.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
net2o ID: kQusJzA;7*?t=uy@X}1GWr!+0qqp_Cn176t4(dQ*
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#41837

<hughaguilar96@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 1:49:22 AM UTC-7, Matthias Koch wrote:
>>>> source code for the Canon Cat, a word processor from the late 80's
>>>> created by Jeff Raskin.
>> 
>>> Wow!  Thanks for posting that.  It's around 30 KLOC of code, a lot of it
>>> in assembler.  Both the Forth and assembler parts are impressive and
>>> well-commented.  Do you know if there's a way to run the program on a
>>> modern computer, e.g. using a 68k emulator?  The original hardware
>>> used a 5 mhz 68000 with 256k of ram, so emulation should be feasible.
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> yes, MESS emulates the Cat: http://www.mess.org/
>> (And the Swyft, too!)
>> 
>> Matthias
> 
> I'm definitely interested in trying out the Canon Cat --- that $1495
> price tag was just too high (even today, I don't have $1495 burning a
> hole in my pocket) --- now I can finally have a Canon Cat that I wanted so badly in 1987!
> 
> Nowadays, the GUI seems to be the only option for a user-interface, but I
> remember I time when it was just one of several options, and not the best
> in anybody's opinion (other than Steve Jobs). In the 1980s, I considered
> the GUI to be only for graphical artists --- they could drag icons around
> on their drawing, similar to how they previously did cut-and-paste using
> an Exacto-Knife and bottle of glue --- besides that, most of them were
> semi-literate at best and were never going to master a command-line (they
> all declared themselves to be "right-brain thinkers" and despised text
> despite the fact that written language is humanity's greatest invention).
> In 1987 I did not predict that every computer and every piece of software
> would have a GUI within 5 years --- I still think of the GUI as being a
> throw-back to the pictures that cavemen drew on the walls of their caves
> in pre-literacy days.
> 
> On a related note --- we now have dual-core 64-bit computers, but a
> significant portion of the processing power is dedicated to the GUI, with
> very little being used for actual computing --- that is like using a jet
> plane to haul garbage!

I'm very sorry to hear that. I can assure you that my "processing power" is
doing "actual computing", since there are no GUI on servers. I hope it
makes you happy.

-- 
dunno

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#41767

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-7, Mux wrote:

> For those of you interested, here's a link to the complete forth source code 

I had the good experience of being able to try out a Cannon Cat at
an SVFIG meeting a few years ago, it was infact at Forth Day.  I 
have a chaotic mind so it might take me a full day to get used to
it but if I was going to be an office secretary, I would probably
prefer the Cat's interface to the old PC or the Macs.

I might pick one of those things up an fleece-bay one of these
days, to study its U.I. more.

Jason

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#41814

> ...complete forth source code for the Canon Cat...

By the way, does someone know or have a similiar listing for "EDDE", the Swyft editor, that preceded the Cat ? I have a Swyft ROM for MESS emulation and found a manual [1] and a disassembler [2] for it, but I am not sure on how to enter Forth and a commented listing would be much more enjoyable.

Matthias

[1] http://apple2online.com/web_documents/swyftcard_manual.pdf
[2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/canon-cat/swyft$20see/canon-cat/11kbDx8Zt-o/qU8d-T29FkoJ

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#41815

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 4:51:45 AM UTC-7, Matthias Koch wrote:
> > ...complete forth source code for the Canon Cat...
> 
> By the way, does someone know or have a similiar listing for "EDDE", the Swyft editor, that preceded the Cat ? I have a Swyft ROM for MESS emulation and found a manual [1] and a disassembler [2] for it, but I am not sure on how to enter Forth and a commented listing would be much more enjoyable.
> 
> Matthias
> 
> [1] http://apple2online.com/web_documents/swyftcard_manual.pdf
> [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/canon-cat/swyft$20see/canon-cat/11kbDx8Zt-o/qU8d-T29FkoJ

Elizabeth Rather has already sued Apple Computer for their use of the word "swift" --- now she will sue Jeff Raskin for his use of the word "swyft" --- all she has to do is convince the jury that the rascally Raskin built a time-machine to travel back to the 1980s to use the word "swyft" that he clearly stole from Forth Inc.'s SwiftForth.

Jeff Raskin will be reduced to abject poverty --- he will have to stand on a street corner with a cardboard sign that says: "got sued by Forth Inc., anything helps, god bless" --- imagine how proud the ANS-Forth crowd will be on that glorious day in the history of Forth Inc.!

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#41830

hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

> On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 4:51:45 AM UTC-7, Matthias Koch wrote:
> > > ...complete forth source code for the Canon Cat...
> > 
> > By the way, does someone know or have a similiar listing for "EDDE",
> > the Swyft editor, that preceded the Cat ? I have a Swyft ROM for MESS emulation
 ....
> > Matthias
> > 
> > [1] http://apple2online.com/web_documents/swyftcard_manual.pdf
> > [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/canon-cat/swyft$20see/canon-cat/11kbDx8Zt-o/qU8d-T29FkoJ
> 
> Elizabeth Rather has already sued Apple Computer for their use of the word "swift"

Then Jeff Raskin ought to sue Forth, Inc. for using "Swift".

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#41831

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 2:45:05 PM UTC-5, WJ wrote:
> hughaguilar wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 4:51:45 AM UTC-7, Matthias Koch wrote:
> > > > ...complete forth source code for the Canon Cat...
> > > 
> > > By the way, does someone know or have a similiar listing for "EDDE",
> > > the Swyft editor, that preceded the Cat ? I have a Swyft ROM for MESS emulation
>  ....
> > > Matthias
> > > 
> > > [1] http://apple2online.com/web_documents/swyftcard_manual.pdf
> > > [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/canon-cat/swyft$20see/canon-cat/11kbDx8Zt-o/qU8d-T29FkoJ
> > 
> > Elizabeth Rather has already sued Apple Computer for their use of the word "swift"
> 
> Then Jeff Raskin ought to sue Forth, Inc. for using "Swift".

Jef Raskin has been dead for more than a decade from the same kind of cancer
that put Steve Jobs in the grave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jef_Raskin

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#41839

hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

> Elizabeth Rather has already sued Apple Computer for their use of the word "swift"
> --- now she will sue Jeff Raskin for his use of the word "swyft"

How does the programming ability of Jeff Raskin compare to that of
"Ms." Rather?

I wonder if he used structures.

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