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Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH?

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  Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-01-22 14:16 -0600
    Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2015-01-25 14:54 +0200
      Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-01-26 07:44 -0600
        Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-26 08:18 -0800
          Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-01-27 03:40 -0600
            Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-27 12:35 +0000
              Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-01-27 08:54 -0600
                Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2015-01-30 09:40 -0600
                  Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? farva <joshua.harden@farva.net> - 2015-02-28 20:38 -0800
                    Re: Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-01 14:40 +0000

#35962 — Shadow screens as documentation outside of FORTH?

Yes, subject line is a little mangled ;/
This started with me being annoyed by some Linux man pages.
Although they obviously meet the needs of many (most?) users, 
they tend to feed me "too many trees to perceive the forest".
Something made me think "shadow screens".
That led to:
   default display man page
   F1 display background info
   F2 display examples
   etc. etc.

Questions
   1. Link to essay(s) on use of shadow screens (preferably aimed 
at non-Forther)?
   2. Is something similar to shadow screens used outside of Forth.

Purpose of questions
   Joggle my thought process. I can't solve my problem(s) until I 
better define it.
   I.E. my mental cage needs to be rattled.

TIA

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#36007

On 22.01.2015 22:16, Richard Owlett wrote:

>    2. Is something similar to shadow screens used outside of Forth.
>
> Purpose of questions
>    Joggle my thought process. I can't solve my problem(s) until I better
> define it.

Problem is that there are no shadow screens in other languages. So best 
way of having something like shadow might be to have doc/file.ext where 
are documented the src/file.ext contents.

To handle something like this, you need own viewer and editor program 
which makes it possible to follow them both synchronously.

And then there is possibility expand this to reference, examples and 
documentation generation.

Best regards,
Hannu Vuolasaho

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#36038

Thank you for the reply.

Hannu Vuolasaho wrote:
> On 22.01.2015 22:16, Richard Owlett wrote:
>
>>    2. Is something similar to shadow screens used outside of
>> Forth.
>>
>> Purpose of questions
>>    Joggle my thought process. I can't solve my problem(s) until
>> I better
>> define it.
>
> Problem is that there are no shadow screens in other languages.

I expected that. I've done very little Forth programming and none 
on a system using shadow screens - lead to request for 
description of how one interacted with shadow screens.

> So best way of having something like shadow might be to have
> doc/file.ext where are documented the src/file.ext contents.
>
> To handle something like this, you need own viewer and editor
> program which makes it possible to follow them both synchronously.
>
> And then there is possibility expand this to reference, examples
> and documentation generation.

I'm not attempting to document code. It more resembles taking 
notes on research.

I'm attempting a heavily customized install of Debian and was 
pointed to debootstrap/multistrap. I found an article addressing 
portions of my goal. But lack background presumed by the author.


What I envision is saving the page locally.
Highlight an unfamiliar command and use F1 to retrieve its 
locally stored man page.
When reading the man page, highlight a sub-command to display 
examples with Alt-F1.
If the examples use an unfamiliar command, repeat above as required.

The information required for this would not be initially 
available locally. I would do the required research and save the 
result in appropriate format.

The result being that days/weeks/months later I could read the 
original article and quickly retrieve poorly remembered information.

Does this resemble usage of shadow screens to anyone besides myself?

TIA







>
> Best regards,
> Hannu Vuolasaho

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#36041

On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 5:44:14 AM UTC-8, Richard Owlett wrote:
 thought process. I can't solve my problem(s) until
> 
> What I envision is saving the page locally.
> Highlight an unfamiliar command and use F1 to retrieve its 
> locally stored man page.
> When reading the man page, highlight a sub-command to display 
> examples with Alt-F1.
> If the examples use an unfamiliar command, repeat above as required.
> 
> The information required for this would not be initially 
> available locally. I would do the required research and save the 
> result in appropriate format.
> 
> The result being that days/weeks/months later I could read the 
> original article and quickly retrieve poorly remembered information.
> 
> Does this resemble usage of shadow screens to anyone besides myself?
> 
> TIA
> 

To me, it resembles usage of hyperlinks, but I'm not an expert
 on either subject, so I may be totally stepping out of bounds
 by sharing an uninformed opinion.

Mike

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#36071

Michael Barry wrote:
> On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 5:44:14 AM UTC-8, Richard Owlett wrote:
>   thought process. I can't solve my problem(s) until
>>
>> What I envision is saving the page locally.
>> Highlight an unfamiliar command and use F1 to retrieve its
>> locally stored man page.
>> When reading the man page, highlight a sub-command to display
>> examples with Alt-F1.
>> If the examples use an unfamiliar command, repeat above as required.
>>
>> The information required for this would not be initially
>> available locally. I would do the required research and save the
>> result in appropriate format.
>>
>> The result being that days/weeks/months later I could read the
>> original article and quickly retrieve poorly remembered information.
>>
>> Does this resemble usage of shadow screens to anyone besides myself?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>
> To me, it resembles usage of hyperlinks, but I'm not an expert
>   on either subject, so I may be totally stepping out of bounds
>   by sharing an uninformed opinion.
>
> Mike
>

When I think of hyperlinks, only HTML comes to mind. I think that 
would be too static.

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#36074

In article <OaCdnc9dIKKbwFrJnZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@supernews.com>,
Richard Owlett  <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:
>Michael Barry wrote:
>> On Monday, January 26, 2015 at 5:44:14 AM UTC-8, Richard Owlett wrote:
>>   thought process. I can't solve my problem(s) until
>>>
>>> What I envision is saving the page locally.
>>> Highlight an unfamiliar command and use F1 to retrieve its
>>> locally stored man page.
>>> When reading the man page, highlight a sub-command to display
>>> examples with Alt-F1.
>>> If the examples use an unfamiliar command, repeat above as required.
>>>
>>> The information required for this would not be initially
>>> available locally. I would do the required research and save the
>>> result in appropriate format.
>>>
>>> The result being that days/weeks/months later I could read the
>>> original article and quickly retrieve poorly remembered information.
>>>
>>> Does this resemble usage of shadow screens to anyone besides myself?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>
>>
>> To me, it resembles usage of hyperlinks, but I'm not an expert
>>   on either subject, so I may be totally stepping out of bounds
>>   by sharing an uninformed opinion.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>When I think of hyperlinks, only HTML comes to mind. I think that
>would be too static.
>

HTML docs are very pleasant. Don't take this as a plug, but let's
say you put ci86.lina64.html on your desktop. Trim it to a width of
64 char's (or<80) and have it at the left of your screen.
The glossary in alphabetic order fits.

So what does RDROP do?
Just click on it.

Is there a word to clear the data stack?
Guess that it is in the wordset STACK. Click on it.
There are few words that are unfamiliar. RSP! no.
CLS yes.

What is the idea about strings?
Read the intro of the strings wordset.

What was the difference between FM/MOD and UM/MOD again ?
They sit neatly together in the multiplying wordset,
for easy comparison.

(Not for total beginners. Beginners should start with
reading introductory chapters of the pdf.)

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#36078

Just a note to acknowledge your post.
Got only a couple hours sleep last night.

Albert van der Horst wrote:>
>  [snip]
> HTML docs are very pleasant. Don't take this as a plug, but let's
> say you put ci86.lina64.html on your desktop. Trim it to a width of
> 64 char's (or<80) and have it at the left of your screen.
> The glossary in alphabetic order fits.
> [snip]

I found http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/ci86.lina.htm .
That HTML is pleasant in many ways but is inherently static.
Looking at how you structured the page got me *thinking* .
I will have to rewrite my description of my goals.

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#36155

Richard Owlett wrote:
> Just a note to acknowledge your post.
> Got only a couple hours sleep last night.
>
> Albert van der Horst wrote:>
>>  [snip]
>> HTML docs are very pleasant. Don't take this as a plug, but let's
>> say you put ci86.lina64.html on your desktop. Trim it to a
>> width of
>> 64 char's (or<80) and have it at the left of your screen.
>> The glossary in alphabetic order fits.
>> [snip]
>
> I found http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/ci86.lina.htm .
> That HTML is pleasant in many ways but is inherently static.
> Looking at how you structured the page got me *thinking* .
> I will have to rewrite my description of my goals.
>

I've come up with a better image of my goal.

A student is reading "Julius Caesar" in an English literature course.
As he doesn't understand a historical reference, he reads an 
encyclopedia article on Roman government. There's an unfamiliar 
word prompting him to use a dictionary.

In my use case I'm reading about bootstrapping Debian leading to 
retrieving man pages and then looking for more exhaustive 
examples than used in the man pages.

My "solution" would be a custom browser for reading the base 
material. One might highlight a word and press F1 to search for a 
relevant man page or Alt-F1 for a relevant example. Details of 
what to do if there is not a relevant items - don't know yet.

The relevance to Forth?
Shadow screens got me thinking ;/

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#36864

This is sort of what Xanadu (the hypertext system--think alternate history World Wide Web) does.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 7:40:55 AM UTC-8, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Just a note to acknowledge your post.
> > Got only a couple hours sleep last night.
> >
> > Albert van der Horst wrote:>
> >>  [snip]
> >> HTML docs are very pleasant. Don't take this as a plug, but let's
> >> say you put ci86.lina64.html on your desktop. Trim it to a
> >> width of
> >> 64 char's (or<80) and have it at the left of your screen.
> >> The glossary in alphabetic order fits.
> >> [snip]
> >
> > I found http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/ci86.lina.htm .
> > That HTML is pleasant in many ways but is inherently static.
> > Looking at how you structured the page got me *thinking* .
> > I will have to rewrite my description of my goals.
> >
> 
> I've come up with a better image of my goal.
> 
> A student is reading "Julius Caesar" in an English literature course.
> As he doesn't understand a historical reference, he reads an 
> encyclopedia article on Roman government. There's an unfamiliar 
> word prompting him to use a dictionary.
> 
> In my use case I'm reading about bootstrapping Debian leading to 
> retrieving man pages and then looking for more exhaustive 
> examples than used in the man pages.
> 
> My "solution" would be a custom browser for reading the base 
> material. One might highlight a word and press F1 to search for a 
> relevant man page or Alt-F1 for a relevant example. Details of 
> what to do if there is not a relevant items - don't know yet.
> 
> The relevance to Forth?
> Shadow screens got me thinking ;/

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#36878

In article <3f8988e4-4af3-4e86-9160-65b002ba95aa@googlegroups.com>,
farva  <joshua.harden@farva.net> wrote:
>This is sort of what Xanadu (the hypertext system--think alternate history World Wide Web) does.
>
>On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 7:40:55 AM UTC-8, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> Richard Owlett wrote:
>> > Just a note to acknowledge your post.
>> > Got only a couple hours sleep last night.
>> >
>> > Albert van der Horst wrote:>
>> >>  [snip]
>> >> HTML docs are very pleasant. Don't take this as a plug, but let's
>> >> say you put ci86.lina64.html on your desktop. Trim it to a
>> >> width of
>> >> 64 char's (or<80) and have it at the left of your screen.
>> >> The glossary in alphabetic order fits.
>> >> [snip]
>> >
>> > I found http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/ci86.lina.htm .
>> > That HTML is pleasant in many ways but is inherently static.
>> > Looking at how you structured the page got me *thinking* .
>> > I will have to rewrite my description of my goals.
>> >
>>
>> I've come up with a better image of my goal.
>>
>> A student is reading "Julius Caesar" in an English literature course.
>> As he doesn't understand a historical reference, he reads an
>> encyclopedia article on Roman government. There's an unfamiliar
>> word prompting him to use a dictionary.
>>
>> In my use case I'm reading about bootstrapping Debian leading to
>> retrieving man pages and then looking for more exhaustive
>> examples than used in the man pages.
>>
>> My "solution" would be a custom browser for reading the base
>> material. One might highlight a word and press F1 to search for a
>> relevant man page or Alt-F1 for a relevant example. Details of
>> what to do if there is not a relevant items - don't know yet.
>>
>> The relevance to Forth?
>> Shadow screens got me thinking ;/
>

For me the following is good enough:

Remember ciforth has OS-IMPORT
After
  "grep" OS-IMPORT grep
you can do
    grep DROP *.frt
with the intended effect.
This is the code
  CREATE cmdbuf 1000 ALLOT
  : OS-IMPORT ( sc "name-forth"  -- )
       CREATE , ,
       DOES>
       2@ cmdbuf $! BL cmdbuf $C+ \ Command
       ^J PARSE cmdbuf $+!        \ Append
       cmdbuf $@ SYSTEM          \  Execute
  ;

For help about a specific Forth word we need
to leave out the insertion of the blank.

CREATE cmdbuf 1000 ALLOT
: OS-IMPORT2 ( sc "name-forth"  -- )
     CREATE , ,
     DOES>
     2@ cmdbuf $! \ Command
     ^J PARSE cmdbuf $+!        \ Append
     cmdbuf $@ SYSTEM          \  Execute
;

Now define a shell variable FORTH that is a path to
the html file and export it

"firefox file:$FORTH#" OS-IMPORT2 help

Now you can do
WORDS
or
SEE whatever

and type
  HELP
followed by double click on the word, than middle
click (paste), return.
(Okay slightly simplified, for best effect
OS-IMPORT2 should include the forthword in single
quotes, but you get the idea.)

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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