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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #30486 > unrolled thread

Go Forth And Prosper

Started byJason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com>
First post2014-05-20 09:23 -0700
Last post2014-05-25 13:27 -0700
Articles 20 on this page of 314 — 30 participants

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Contents

  Go Forth And Prosper Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-20 09:23 -0700
    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 10:32 -0700
      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 09:57 +0400
        Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 03:03 -0400
        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 00:40 -0700
          Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:01 -0700
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 20:35 +0400
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-24 19:35 +0000
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:17 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 16:57 -1000
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 00:39 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 05:00 -0400
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 09:02 -0700
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 12:32 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper babruehl@gmail.com - 2014-05-25 12:36 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 15:43 -0400
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 13:02 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:14 -0700
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:05 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 17:04 -0400
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 15:44 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 12:01 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:33 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 18:08 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 23:44 -0400
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:29 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:12 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:18 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-27 15:50 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 00:12 +0100
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:19 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 11:41 +0400
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:38 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 08:13 +0400
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:57 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 08:30 +0400
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 21:44 -0700
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 09:01 +0400
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 22:09 -0700
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 10:26 +0400
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-25 23:34 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 12:32 +0400
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 09:37 -0700
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 21:32 +0400
                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 10:49 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 11:40 -0700
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:13 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:41 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 11:03 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:24 +0400
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:35 -0700
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 15:56 +0400
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 10:34 -0700
                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 16:53 -0400
                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 20:43 -0700
                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 01:57 -0400
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 10:28 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:37 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 17:29 +0400
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 10:56 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 11:31 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 12:12 -0700
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:50 -0700
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 15:54 -0400
                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 13:10 -0700
                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 13:32 -0700
                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 14:01 -0700
                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:50 -0400
                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 19:13 -0700
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 23:50 -0400
                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:51 -0700
                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:03 -0700
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 03:19 -0400
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 00:33 -0700
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:43 -0700
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 01:18 -0700
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 05:18 -0700
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 00:42 -0700
                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 13:53 -1000
                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 20:13 -0700
                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 17:34 -1000
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 21:49 -0700
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 20:33 -1000
                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 13:48 -1000
                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:24 -0700
                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 17:44 -1000
                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 21:01 -0700
                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-27 00:08 -0700
                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 12:39 -0700
                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-27 13:36 -1000
                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:53 -0700
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-27 18:11 -1000
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 08:57 -0700
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-29 09:42 +0000
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 15:03 -0700
                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-30 00:23 +0000
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 02:04 -0400
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper test <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-28 04:54 -0400
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-28 10:17 +0000
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 06:51 -0700
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 13:35 -0400
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 10:43 -0700
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 09:19 -0700
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 13:41 -0400
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 12:20 -0700
                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-28 13:28 -0700
                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 17:54 -0700
                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-28 19:13 -0700
                                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 23:17 -0400
                                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 11:27 -0700
                                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 11:51 -0700
                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 13:01 -0700
                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 13:26 -0700
                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 13:48 -0700
                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 14:02 -0700
                                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 14:45 -0700
                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 14:37 -0700
                                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 15:05 -0700
                                                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 15:31 -0700
                                                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 15:50 -0700
                                                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 16:11 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 16:43 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 17:00 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 17:58 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-30 01:31 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 14:15 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:29 +0200
                                                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 22:47 -0400
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:24 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 23:35 -0400
                                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:55 -0700
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 20:41 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 00:22 -0400
                                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 21:41 -0700
                                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 01:28 -0400
                                                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 08:33 -0700
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 13:05 +0200
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-30 11:47 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 13:07 +0200
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 14:14 -0400
                                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:04 +0200
                                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 12:34 -0700
                                                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 23:41 +0200
                                                                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 17:27 -0700
                                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:05 -0700
                                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 18:15 -0400
                                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 17:45 -0700
                                                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 21:53 -0400
                                                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 19:13 -0700
                                                                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 19:45 -0700
                                                                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:27 -0700
                                                                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 19:39 -0700
                                                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-30 11:37 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 20:16 +0200
                                                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:32 +0200
                                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-31 02:49 +0100
                                                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 19:15 +0200
                                                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:23 +0200
                                                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:18 +0200
                                                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 08:41 -0700
                                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 09:53 +0200
                                                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 09:50 +0400
                                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 11:17 -0700
                                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 09:55 +0400
                                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 23:26 -0700
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-28 04:56 -0400
                                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 09:39 -0700
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 09:46 -0700
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 10:18 -0700
                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 10:28 -0700
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:57 -0500
                                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 10:39 -0700
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 10:47 -0700
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 20:45 +0200
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper David J <skamolex@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 11:49 -0700
                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:08 -0400
                                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-29 09:46 +0000
                                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 13:00 -0700
                                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-31 23:07 +0000
                                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 06:37 -0700
                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:39 -0400
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 16:03 -0700
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 09:43 +0200
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 00:45 -0700
                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-27 12:40 +0200
                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 11:46 -0700
                                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:47 +0200
                                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-27 10:54 -0700
                                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:49 +0200
                                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-28 12:52 -0700
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 12:24 -0700
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:28 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 03:21 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 23:33 -0700
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:08 +0400
          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 20:15 +0400
    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 11:05 -0700
      Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 16:02 -0400
        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 13:30 -0700
          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 16:50 -0400
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 14:12 -0700
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 18:54 -0400
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 17:15 -0700
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 15:00 -0700
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 15:13 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 17:19 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 17:27 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 18:26 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-20 18:34 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 21:53 -0400
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 19:58 -0700
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 20:03 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 01:27 -0400
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-21 10:31 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 09:07 -0700
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-21 11:46 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 15:34 -0400
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-21 11:48 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 21:47 -0400
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 18:48 -0400
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 13:00 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 16:47 -0400
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-21 00:18 +0200
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 18:55 -0400
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-21 02:22 +0200
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 22:06 -0400
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-21 14:26 +0200
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-21 17:17 -0400
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-21 17:48 -0400
        Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-20 14:41 -0700
      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:23 -0700
    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 12:12 -0700
      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 11:36 -0700
        Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 14:53 -0400
          Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:12 -0700
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 15:23 -0400
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:29 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 16:51 -0400
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-22 13:58 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:24 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:32 -0700
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 12:39 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-22 13:00 -0700
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 09:18 -1000
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 18:46 -0400
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 19:12 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:36 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:42 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-27 23:13 +0100
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 19:19 -0400
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 20:52 +0100
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:12 -0400
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-29 12:41 +0000
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 01:47 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-28 05:20 -0400
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:03 +0100
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:13 -0400
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 06:41 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 16:44 +0200
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 07:49 -0700
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 17:01 +0200
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-05-28 15:01 +0000
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-28 08:40 -0700
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 20:45 +0200
                                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 14:53 -0400
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:10 +0100
                                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 23:28 +0300
                              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-28 17:54 -0400
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:01 +0100
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2014-05-28 08:00 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:50 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 14:52 +0300
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 17:45 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 23:47 -0400
                            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 19:41 +0300
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 02:35 -0700
                Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-24 21:24 -0400
                  Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 17:02 -1000
                    Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:21 -0700
                    Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-24 22:16 -0700
                      Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-24 21:02 -1000
                        Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-05-25 11:39 +0100
                        Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-25 15:24 +0200
                        Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] mhx@iae.nl - 2014-05-25 09:07 -0700
                    Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-05-25 14:15 +0000
                    Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2014-05-25 12:48 -0400
                    Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-05-27 23:27 +0100
                  Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] Rob Sciuk <rob@controlq.com> - 2014-05-26 13:08 -0400
                    Re: Ms Rather attacked, was [Re: Go Forth And Prosper] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-26 07:41 -1000
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:31 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-25 04:05 -0400
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 12:42 +0400
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 07:50 -0700
            Re: Go Forth And Prosper Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-05-22 22:09 -0700
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-23 05:08 -0400
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-23 09:46 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-23 13:32 -0400
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-23 14:26 -0700
              Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:20 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-24 08:31 -0700
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 08:40 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-24 09:50 -0700
                      Re: Go Forth And Prosper Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:35 -0700
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-25 11:25 +0000
                        Re: Go Forth And Prosper Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-26 16:20 -0700
                          Re: Go Forth And Prosper Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-05-27 06:04 -0500
                  Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 19:01 -0700
                    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 19:24 -0700
                Re: Go Forth And Prosper visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-24 10:12 -0700
    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:29 -0700
      Re: Go Forth And Prosper "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 01:37 -0700
        Re: Go Forth And Prosper rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 12:08 -0400
    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:21 -0700
    Re: Go Forth And Prosper "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 13:27 -0700

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#30764

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-26 11:31 -0700
Message-ID<7xegzgl7d2.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30761
"VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> writes:
> Paul, please download http://www.4e4th.com/4E4th-IDE.zip

4E4th-IDE apparently only runs on Windows, which I don't use.  Also I
don't want to use anything unless the source code is released.
Last time this came up, I think the IDE was binary-only, is it still?

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#30768

From"VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 12:12 -0700
Message-ID<3ef8188c-f7c4-4181-a029-1b36811870d5@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30764
On Monday, May 26, 2014 2:31:21 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "VisualForth.com" writes:
> > Paul, please download http://www.4e4th.com/4E4th-IDE.zip
> 
> 4E4th-IDE apparently only runs on Windows, which I don't use.  

The 4E4th-IDE runs with Wine under Linux, too. 
The 4E4th-IDE running on Linux is used for education in Germany. 

> Also I don't want to use anything unless the source code is released.
> Last time this came up, I think the IDE was binary-only, is it still?

The source-code is free, but I didn't find an appropriate venue for publishing.
The 4E4th-IDE has been developed using VisualFORTH.

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#30779

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-26 12:50 -0700
Message-ID<7xppj0jp4m.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30768
"VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> writes:
> The 4E4th-IDE runs with Wine under Linux, too. 
> The 4E4th-IDE running on Linux is used for education in Germany.  ...

This is good to know.  Overall I'm not too worried.  The main reason I
haven't messed with embedded Forth despite being interested in it is
that whenever I want to write some code, it always ends up being easier
to just use my laptop.

> The source-code is free, but I didn't find an appropriate venue for
> publishing.  The 4E4th-IDE has been developed using VisualFORTH.

Also good to hear, though I guess there is a win32Forth dependency.
Simplest way to publish the source is probably just put a download link
on your site.  Maybe there is one already.  I looked, but maybe I didn't
look hard enough.

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#30780

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 15:54 -0400
Message-ID<lm0660$qsd$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#30779
On 5/26/2014 3:50 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> writes:
>> The 4E4th-IDE runs with Wine under Linux, too.
>> The 4E4th-IDE running on Linux is used for education in Germany.  ...
>
> This is good to know.  Overall I'm not too worried.  The main reason I
> haven't messed with embedded Forth despite being interested in it is
> that whenever I want to write some code, it always ends up being easier
> to just use my laptop.

I'm not sure what you are saying.  If you can code for the PC that is 
nearly always the easiest route.  Embedded design is for applications 
that can't run on the PC for any of a variety of reasons, usually either 
size, cost or power consumption.  Do you have a need for developing 
embedded code or not?  Or are you saying you would just like to play 
with embedded forth?

-- 

Rick

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#30781

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-26 13:10 -0700
Message-ID<7xha4cjo7c.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30780
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> I'm not sure what you are saying.  If you can code for the PC that is
> nearly always the easiest route.  Embedded design is for applications
> that can't run on the PC for any of a variety of reasons, usually
> either size, cost or power consumption.  Do you have a need for
> developing embedded code or not?  Or are you saying you would just
> like to play with embedded forth?

I always have more ideas than I have time to pursue.  Some of those
ideas require embedded design, which is why I'm interested in it.  I do
want to pursue some of them.  In practice, though, I find my efforts are
pulled towards stuff that I can do on PC's, because that's easier, or at
any rate it's where I have more knowledge.

In particular I've never been persuaded by the idea that an embedded
board with Forth is a good way for beginners to learn programming.  It's
a lot easier to use a desktop Forth for that (if Forth is the right
approach at all).  I've programmed several embedded projects (largish
32-bit targets) and I've generally the programming and testing on a PC
when possible, with the idea of porting to the target platform
afterwards.

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#30782

From"Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 13:32 -0700
Message-ID<891d3409-42d0-4c71-8340-962fd5ffe094@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30781
> In particular I've never been persuaded by the idea that an embedded
> board with Forth is a good way for beginners to learn programming.  It's

Programming on the target itself has many advantages. It is worth a try to see if it suites you. Persuasion becomes moot. All the pc does is run a serial terminal and hold source code in text files to download to the target. With an app downloaded it can run from power up. Simple as that.

For example FISH on Simon's board is USB plug-n-play. 

With a serial interface hooked up, FISH can be placed on the NXP LPCxpressso 1114 Eval board. After programming reset the board and start programming.

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#30785

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-26 14:01 -0700
Message-ID<7xegzgdzkx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30782
"Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> writes:
> Programming on the target itself has many advantages. It is worth a
> try to see if it suites you. 

Of course it does.  But why should the target be an embedded board,
unless the user has a particular embedded application they want to
pursue?  If the programmer's goal is to greet the user with "hello", why
not just print "hello" on a PC console, instead of blinking it in morse
code on an LED controlled by a MCU's GPIO pin?

It comes down to: of the many things that people want to do with
computers, embedded is a little niche that some of us (yourself, me,
probably Forthers in general, and some others) are interested in, but we
are unusual.  And those of us interested in embedded probably ultimately
want to use hardware custom-designed for our own applications, with
development boards as a prototyping tool.  So from that angle there's
not a whole lot of difference between dev boards.

Rick asked if I actually want to use embedded for something, and the
answer is yes I do, but the board has to be really tiny, like femtoduino
sized (femtoduino.com) and it will need some special parts.  So I'm a
bit daunted by that too, I suppose.

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#30796

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 20:50 -0400
Message-ID<lm0nfl$ctk$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#30785
On 5/26/2014 5:01 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> writes:
>> Programming on the target itself has many advantages. It is worth a
>> try to see if it suites you.
>
> Of course it does.  But why should the target be an embedded board,
> unless the user has a particular embedded application they want to
> pursue?  If the programmer's goal is to greet the user with "hello", why
> not just print "hello" on a PC console, instead of blinking it in morse
> code on an LED controlled by a MCU's GPIO pin?
>
> It comes down to: of the many things that people want to do with
> computers, embedded is a little niche that some of us (yourself, me,
> probably Forthers in general, and some others) are interested in, but we
> are unusual.  And those of us interested in embedded probably ultimately
> want to use hardware custom-designed for our own applications, with
> development boards as a prototyping tool.  So from that angle there's
> not a whole lot of difference between dev boards.
>
> Rick asked if I actually want to use embedded for something, and the
> answer is yes I do, but the board has to be really tiny, like femtoduino
> sized (femtoduino.com) and it will need some special parts.  So I'm a
> bit daunted by that too, I suppose.

Now you are in my domain, hardware.  I see they show the Femtoduino next 
to a penny... I have actually designed a board which was smaller than a 
penny and I have photos somewhere of it sitting on one.  lol

If I can find sufficient market for a very tiny board I would be happy 
to produce it.  What do you need in such a board?  What are your 
requirements?  What is your app?

-- 

Rick

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#30798

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-26 19:13 -0700
Message-ID<7xy4xohsur.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30796
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> If I can find sufficient market for a very tiny board I would be happy
> to produce it.  What do you need in such a board?  What are your
> requirements?  What is your app?

The board would need one or two teeny microprocessors and some analog
parts.  This isn't the place to go into the details.  My idea is to code
on a laptop first, and then port to a dev board with hand-hacked add-ons
to be able to demo something like the end product before worrying about
a custom board.  But maybe we should talk at some point.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#30803

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 23:50 -0400
Message-ID<lm121t$7cm$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#30798
On 5/26/2014 10:13 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> If I can find sufficient market for a very tiny board I would be happy
>> to produce it.  What do you need in such a board?  What are your
>> requirements?  What is your app?
>
> The board would need one or two teeny microprocessors and some analog
> parts.  This isn't the place to go into the details.  My idea is to code
> on a laptop first, and then port to a dev board with hand-hacked add-ons
> to be able to demo something like the end product before worrying about
> a custom board.  But maybe we should talk at some point.

Custom boards can be prototyped very inexpensively if your design rules 
are not too severe.  This small of a board might be prototyped at a very 
low cost.  Either way, let me know when you want to move forward with this.

-- 

Rick

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#30811

From"M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com>
Date2014-05-26 23:51 -0700
Message-ID<41ff4b50-ebde-4d13-9a1b-4f7bc01c6138@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30785
On Monday, May 26, 2014 9:01:18 PM UTC, Paul Rubin wrote:
> And those of us interested in embedded probably ultimately
> 
> want to use hardware custom-designed for our own applications, with
> 
> development boards as a prototyping tool.  So from that angle there's
> 
> not a whole lot of difference between dev boards.

That is the point of using I2C. It is a way to customize your "board" without having to go through the difficulties custom design presents. 

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#30812

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-27 00:03 -0700
Message-ID<7xmwe3snyy.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30811
"M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> writes:
> That is the point of using I2C. It is a way to customize your "board"
> without having to go through the difficulties custom design presents.

That's an interesting insight and I'll have to keep it in mind.  But
there is still an "adverse selection" obstacle.  Basically any
application with relaxed enough space/power/cost constraints is probably
easier to implement with a laptop or Beaglebone than with an MCU.  So if
I'm using an MCU at all, it's because the application must be
miniaturized, battery powered, cheap in volume, or maybe even all of the
above.  All of these attributes tend to call for custom boards and
packaging.

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#30814

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-27 03:19 -0400
Message-ID<lm1eaq$8on$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#30812
On 5/27/2014 3:03 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> writes:
>> That is the point of using I2C. It is a way to customize your "board"
>> without having to go through the difficulties custom design presents.
>
> That's an interesting insight and I'll have to keep it in mind.  But
> there is still an "adverse selection" obstacle.  Basically any
> application with relaxed enough space/power/cost constraints is probably
> easier to implement with a laptop or Beaglebone than with an MCU.  So if
> I'm using an MCU at all, it's because the application must be
> miniaturized, battery powered, cheap in volume, or maybe even all of the
> above.  All of these attributes tend to call for custom boards and
> packaging.

You mention size, power and cost as if they were binary elements, PC vs 
embedded.  Embedded covers a wide range of solutions.  Using an off the 
shelf MCU board for a small, low cost, low power application is not at 
all unusual.  The cost of making a PCB has come down a lot over the 
years, but there is still a lot of NRE involved in the design and 
potential respin cycles.  So unless you product has some quantity to it, 
most designers will opt for a COTS approach rather than rolling their 
own board.

-- 

Rick

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#30816

From"M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com>
Date2014-05-27 00:33 -0700
Message-ID<ed38a116-3ea1-4658-b205-1669d9780a1d@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30812
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 7:03:01 AM UTC, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Basically any
> 
> application with relaxed enough space/power/cost constraints is probably
> 
> easier to implement with a laptop or Beaglebone than with an MCU.  So if
> 
> I'm using an MCU at all, it's because the application must be
> 
> miniaturized, battery powered, cheap in volume, or maybe even all of the
> 
> above.  All of these attributes tend to call for custom boards and
> 
> packaging.

And if you are doing a one of? It is why SYSTEMS use back planes. My back plane is the I2C bus. 

Suppose you want your ADC here, your LCD display there, your DDS some place else, etc. I2C makes it possible to distribute that "stuff" in space. The usable volume with I2C is a sphere with a 6m (20ft) radius. I have a customer who is taking advantage of that fact. 

I'm really encouraged by the discussion here. Very very few get what I'm doing. Which means I have the field to myself. I'm either incredibly stupid or incredibly far sighted. Time will tell.

BTW the chip I'm using takes 60 seconds to down load our Forth kernel. So slow downloads are the norm in my realm. But if you are building code interactively it is not a serious problem. 

Embedded is a whole different world. Luckily I have spent 40 years at it. And 60 years doing electronics (I started at age 10 and was designing by age 13).  With any luck I can teach a few others what I have learned before I join the Great Coder In The Sky.

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#30820

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-27 00:43 -0700
Message-ID<7xlhtnsm3q.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30816
"M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com> writes:
> Suppose you want your ADC here, your LCD display there, your DDS some
> place else, etc. I2C makes it possible to distribute that "stuff" in
> space. The usable volume with I2C is a sphere with a 6m (20ft)
> radius. I have a customer who is taking advantage of that fact.

Not sure what DDS is or why I'd want stuff spread around like that in a
power constrained system.  I think the comp.arch.embedded guys prefer
the CAN bus for distances like that.

> BTW the chip I'm using takes 60 seconds to down load our Forth
> kernel. So slow downloads are the norm in my realm. But if you are
> building code interactively it is not a serious problem.

That is pretty slow, didn't you say your sio was at 115kbps?  Maybe
I'm confusing you with someone else.  PJRC claims to be able to receive
80 megabits/sec over USB 2.0 on their arm board:
http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/benchmark_usb_serial_receive.html

> Embedded is a whole different world. Luckily I have spent 40 years at it.

Nice.  I think most of us here are basically software types, with
varying levels of interest in hardware.  There are a few hardware
experts on the newsgroup but I'm certainly not one of them.

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#30823

From"M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com>
Date2014-05-27 01:18 -0700
Message-ID<947d0128-4e06-4341-bcc6-6052d76a497d@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30820
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 7:43:21 AM UTC, Paul Rubin wrote:
> 
> Not sure what DDS is or why I'd want stuff spread around like that in a
> 
> power constrained system.  I think the comp.arch.embedded guys prefer
> 
> the CAN bus for distances like that.

DDS - direct digital synthesis. A nice way to make very frequency accurate sine waves. 

Why would some one want things spread out in a low power system? There are good reasons. I'd be giving away my customer's secrets if I told you. Sorry.

CAN? I have designed dual bus CAN bus testers for aerospace. Initial testing of the hardware was done in Forth. But I HAD to use C for the final design - ugh. The I2C bus is simpler and has features like unlimited packet size that make it useful despite being 10X slower than full speed CAN. The I2C bus is unterminated. That can also be handy - esp for newbies. Also running COAX is expensive. Running telephone wire is not. And CAN doesn't automatically carry power. You have to add wires. 4 wire telephone cable is available at Home Depot for very a reasonable price per foot. Connector cost is trivial. Power and coms in one  4 conductor wire. 

As you may have noticed I have given my design decisions a LOT of thought. 

> That is pretty slow, didn't you say your sio was at 115kbps?  

The download speed quoted was using the mfgs tools. We do run at 115200 through USB. 

I could have gone to a higher speed USB interface but those get finicky. I prefer the design margins of lower speed. And then of course there is the compile speed of 10ms per line. Even infinite speed will not help with that. 

A lot of design decisions and trade offs were made to come up with what we have. None of them trivial or amenable to untrained "expertise". And I have Clyde (my software guy) and Vic (advisor on software and hardware) looking over my shoulder. Not to mention two customers (EEs). It was not done in a vacuum. 

Simon

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#30837

FromMikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-27 05:18 -0700
Message-ID<3cbef2d9-e658-4914-8134-9898e8767cc5@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30820
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:43:21 AM UTC+3, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "M. Simon" <> writes: 
> Not sure what DDS is 

There is a DDS (actually 2) on this prototype board that I have in use.
Can you spot them ? SPI is used instead if I2C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt0S_pLQOvA

The moral of this design is that in RF designs, groundplane is the key to good performance. And prototyping is easy and flexible with dead-bug construction.


BR Mike

http://flashforth.sourceforge.net

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#30818

From"M. Simon" <msimon6808@yahoo.com>
Date2014-05-27 00:42 -0700
Message-ID<fa32878f-82bd-4257-9202-b321ed1200a1@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#30812
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 7:03:01 AM UTC, Paul Rubin wrote:
>  Basically any
> 
> application with relaxed enough space/power/cost constraints is probably
> 
> easier to implement with a laptop or Beaglebone than with an MCU.  So if
> 
> I'm using an MCU at all, it's because the application must be
> 
> miniaturized, battery powered, cheap in volume, or maybe even all of the
> 
> above.  All of these attributes tend to call for custom boards and
> 
> packaging.

Yeah. If you relax things enough you can run your application with a 1 GWe power station using parts from the power station's dust bit. I prefer to work with tighter constraints. My average board uses 10ma from the 5V that goes with the I2C bus. A power hungry board might come in at 35ma. Others at 5ma max with everything on the board turned on. 

My goal for most systems is to come in at around 75ma max (USB power limit is 100 ma from the PC) - with higher power systems requiring their own power supplies - I have provision for that.

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#30793

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2014-05-26 13:53 -1000
Message-ID<WqWdnd31l4RmTh7OnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#30782
On 5/26/14 10:32 AM, Clyde W. Phillips Jr. wrote:
>
>> In particular I've never been persuaded by the idea that an embedded
>> board with Forth is a good way for beginners to learn programming.  It's
>
> Programming on the target itself has many advantages. It is worth a try to see if it suites you. Persuasion becomes moot. All the pc does is run a serial terminal and hold source code in text files to download to the target. With an app downloaded it can run from power up. Simple as that.
>
> For example FISH on Simon's board is USB plug-n-play.
>
> With a serial interface hooked up, FISH can be placed on the NXP LPCxpressso 1114 Eval board. After programming reset the board and start programming.

Yeah, right. And as soon as your source file begins to become large, how 
long does it take to download and compile? Leon, from FORTH, Inc., has 
just been working with a customer who inherited such a system. It took 9 
minutes to compile. Interactive programming is a complete farce in such 
an environment. Not only does all the text have to pass down the line, 
but even the target's compiler is going to be limited and slow.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#30799

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2014-05-26 20:13 -0700
Message-ID<7xwqd7sym3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#30793
"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
> It took 9 minutes to compile. Interactive programming is a complete
> farce in such an environment. Not only does all the text have to pass
> down the line, but even the target's compiler is going to be limited
> and slow.

Well, interactive programming can also mean after the big program is
loaded, you can still interact with the target, poke at registers, make
new colon definitions, etc.  I was going to say "overwrite existing
definitions" but the early binding strategy prevents that.  I happened
to just see an old paper[1] about token threading resulting in a
late-binding Forth, so maybe that helps interactivity too (see p. 6
of the paper, under "Experience to date").

[1] http://soton.mpeforth.com/flag/jfar/vol2/no4/article3.pdf

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