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1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day

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  1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-17 14:53 -0700
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-06-18 00:07 -0700
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-18 09:23 -0700
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-06-19 17:48 +0300
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-19 10:46 -0700
        Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-06-22 12:43 +0300
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-19 21:08 -0700
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-19 23:00 -0700
        Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-20 15:33 -0700
          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 21:35 -0700
            Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-20 21:57 -0700
          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-21 00:50 -0700
            Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-21 10:39 -0700
              Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-22 00:13 -0700
                Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-22 12:47 -0700
              Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-06-22 10:46 +0000
          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-06-21 14:37 +0000
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-20 15:20 -0700
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-21 19:37 -0700
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-22 00:21 -0700
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-23 12:10 +0200
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-23 06:09 -0700
        Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-06-23 15:10 -0700
        Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-24 14:50 +0200
          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-24 13:57 -0700
            Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-24 17:13 -0700
              Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-25 00:05 -0700
                Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-25 15:03 +0200
                Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-25 15:51 +0200
              Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-25 14:43 +0200
            Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-25 15:07 +0200
              Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-25 10:36 -0700
                Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-26 11:15 +0200
                Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-06-26 11:21 +0200
                  Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-26 07:45 -0700
                    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-26 07:59 -0700
                  Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-26 07:51 -0700
                    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-26 13:10 -0700
                      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-26 13:12 -0700
                      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-06-26 14:54 -0700
                        Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-07-19 00:30 -0700
                          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-20 15:18 -0700
    Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 01:02 -0700
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-07-21 10:02 -0700
        Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 09:11 -0700
          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-07-23 15:03 -0700
          Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 01:13 -0700
            Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-08-04 06:56 -0700
      Re: 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-07-23 09:15 -0700

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#39811 — 1000 Scouts to solder together MSP430 Forth systems - a Forth computer each end of July - and planned to connect them all as a 1000 Bit Display on the last day

How can we promote the Forth language usage? 
Go to the Young Generation, 
or maker fares
and next to the Coder Clubs
and schools

When the IET asked us to support an electronics activity at this year's Scout's Jamboree in the UK, we said yes - not knowing really what we got ourselves onto. 
A lot more work than we had assumed.
But there we are:
Design the board and the system
Plan the software
Prepare for worst case component scenarios - but still make sure for a positive experience for up to 1000 scouts.

This is where we thought it stops 
- but then we found out that there is no budget really for this project 
- so learning about fundraising was then included as well. 
And people we knew have been appreciating the work we do, supporting us with components and money.


Finding money and components was key for the success of this project.
MPE was very helpful, as was HIDECS. And Michael and Dirk. 
Anybody I asked contributed where possible.

If you or your company wants to help and get their logo into the prospectus - just go ahead. Send £100 and a logo - and you are in as the others.

For the rest of the supporters have a look at the official link

http://mycommunity.theiet.org/blogs/96/2612

and more on the Forth side:

http://www.forth-ev.de/   click on English version
Download the main scouts files from here.

And as you are there, have a look as well at MMT, as this scouts project is using the same hardware:

http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/projects:mmt4ue2:start
here as well as German and as English version

As this scouts jamboree is an international event, we assume we can spread the Forth message further.

As you can  see, FTDI has already donated USBtoTTL cables - so the scouts can start programming in Forth - at the event  or later.

Some schools have found this project already and called me, and we will support them after the event end of July. 
A bit simpler to control IO and LEDs than using Phython and RPI ...
And definitely an intelligent IO even for Arduino and RPI.

As of today we have nearly all of the parts - the rest should come in over the next 4 weeks.
If not donated, then sponsors have given the money to buy the missing parts.

The system shows the beating heart of the owner as seen on the Forth-ev website 
- and they can all be connected as a social network, 
     the Forth software is nearly ready.

During the next weeks  we are preparing a simple Forth programming scenario as we are sure the hardware will be there; 
just using about 20 Forth Words to have a minimum Word set to control IOs 
- the full Forth Word set is available in the background anyway for further programming and it all is programmed into the MSP430.

I might come back to the Forth Community soon, showing the minimum hardware and asking for simple Forth examples using this hardware to support this project.

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#39815

This is too cool for words! MAJOR congratulations to all involved.

Mark

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#39830

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 8:07:26 AM UTC+1, Mark Wills wrote:
> This is too cool for words! MAJOR congratulations to all involved.
> 
> Mark

Well it takes time, but the set is nearly ready:

If people want to see where it comes from:

Forth - The Early Years: Background information about the beginnings of this Computer Language

And how the language works:

Programming A Problem Oriented Language: Forth - how the internals work

Then want to see some more examples:

FORTH LITE TUTORIAL: Forth Tutorial tested with free MPE VFX Forth, mostly compatible with FORTH INC. SwiftForth.

And even an application example is available soon, how to rewrite and existing application in Forth:
Compatible with:

Learning Programming with MyCo: Learning Programming easily - independent of a PC

in short they are all available at:

goo.gl/gPkXPG    



Not to forget the Starting Forth, reformatted for offline reading and printout
to be downloaded from:

http://www.exemark.com/FORTH.htm  see  item 3

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#39874

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:

> [ … ]
> and more on the Forth side:
>
> http://www.forth-ev.de/   click on English version
> Download the main scouts files from here.

Hmm, I didn't find where the link to English version is. 

> [ … ]

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#39876

On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 3:48:29 PM UTC+1, Alexander Skobelev wrote:
> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> 
> > [ ... ]
> > and more on the Forth side:
> >
> > http://www.forth-ev.de/   click on English version
> > Download the main scouts files from here.
> 
> Hmm, I didn't find where the link to English version is. 
> 
> > [ ... ]

Pfadfinder und Forth?
 1000 solche Controller, der größte Forth Cluster, gebaut von Pfadfindern (for English version please click here) 
underneath the links to the PDFs

just tried it, or go directly to English
http://www.forth-ev.de/staticpages/index.php/20150518223732910
and the links to the PDFs as well

and the same on the MMT side
http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/projects:mmt4ue2:start

Click here for English Version
or directly for English
http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/en:projects:mmt4ue2:start

Enjoy the videos Michael did

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#39954

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:

> On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 3:48:29 PM UTC+1, Alexander Skobelev wrote:
>> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>> 
>> > [ ... ]
>> > and more on the Forth side:
>> >
>> > http://www.forth-ev.de/   click on English version
>> > Download the main scouts files from here.
>> 
>> Hmm, I didn't find where the link to English version is. 
>> 
>> > [ ... ]
>
> Pfadfinder und Forth?
>  1000 solche Controller, der größte Forth Cluster, gebaut von
> Pfadfindern (for English version please click here) underneath the
> links to the PDFs
>
> just tried it, or go directly to English
> http://www.forth-ev.de/staticpages/index.php/20150518223732910
> and the links to the PDFs as well
>
> and the same on the MMT side
> http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/projects:mmt4ue2:start
>
> Click here for English Version
> or directly for English
> http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/en:projects:mmt4ue2:start
>
> Enjoy the videos Michael did

Thanks! I was looking for a global link that would turn the whole site
to the English and missed the local one.

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#39880

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> http://mycommunity.theiet.org/blogs/96/2612

Nice!  Is it running a resident MPE Forth on the '2553 part, as
indicated by the label?  Or is it 4e4th which is maybe smaller?

Around here we use the AVR for most introductory MCU things, but of
course the MSP430 is a nicer chip in lots of ways.

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#39881

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 5:08:27 AM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> > http://mycommunity.theiet.org/blogs/96/2612
> 
> Nice!  Is it running a resident MPE Forth on the '2553 part, as
> indicated by the label?  Or is it 4e4th which is maybe smaller?
> 
> Around here we use the AVR for most introductory MCU things, but of
> course the MSP430 is a nicer chip in lots of ways.

Thanks for asking.

As usual with Forth and especially here, any implementation will do. As this is promoted by the IET and going out to the international group of scouts, supporters across Europe, Press releases Europeanwide ( and as you cannot stop it now, coverage visible worldwide ) it seemed to be a good idea to have a commercial product involved - MPE Forth. This will give the readers or participants a different image of the project. 
Part of the design has been done with 4e4th - as of the people involved. 
But the idea and the concept is not limited to any.

eForth might be even better as of the 4k footprint, so more space for applications.

It is a nice side effect that we promote Forth here, not as a language but as application software - the guys will not know how to spell Forth, but learn on the way why it is used here - apart from the fact that it is the best one anyway ...

The Forths used here are based on the people who know their own flavour best  and help me with this project tremendously - mainly Michael Kalus, Dirk Bruehl, and Paul Bennett.

MSP430 was chosen as of 20 pins only and availability in a good old through hole package - remember, some total beginners will solder here for the first time and build a battery driven microcontroller project with all of the development software and application software on-chip.

Regarding the processor choice:  not to forget the tremendous TI support - they sent 1000 chips foc - I just had to explain clearly what we want to achieve.
I have them here.


We go here for minimum complexity of board and software usage, a small and battery driven system - but it can be extended in any way.
All of the headers are there to stick a wire in or another header.
We actually have as well the IO shield for a few of them - the hard core.

Minimum step size for learning is my target for this project  - to achieve maximum success and have fun only if possible - and learn about Forth on the way.

Connect an FTDI cable and you are ready to program.
Connect external hardware and for example get your 3 or 4 RC Servo Robot going ...

Our biggest hardware challenge will be the 1024 unit network (if enough scouts get soldering) - all of them connected and controlled centrally from one of the same battery driven units.

Any company here on clf can get their name in  - based on a contribution - see the PDF information at www.forth-ev.de and as well now at the IET Blog  http://mycommunity.theiet.org/blogs/96/2612

The flashing LED represents the beating heart of the one who built the unit 
- and they will all be connected on the final day   
as a "social network".

A 32 by 32 bit LED array, battery driven - with a size of about 2 x 2 meters ...
Bit adressable. Running time of the unit would be about 1 - 2 weeks.

This is not just planned as a one off - but will be taken to schools afterwards in the UK.

The cost is low and it can be repaired - so you can try things out - and kill a chip - just replace it and continue ...

Paul and I  will probably spend quite a bit of time with the scouts at the camp last week of July, to ensure that this project and activity is a memorable success for them, 
and the supporters will get pictures and as such get something back for their kind donation. 

I think I might even have convinced Stephen Pelc of MPE to come up and see us, and do a few demos for the scouts.

Definitely something for the scouts to talk about with their mates during the event and show to others afterwards.


The list of sponsors is getting longer, from TI and FTDI via Dyson Foundation to samtec and many others. All donating either parts or giving a financial contribution.

I had a closer look at the sponsor list yesterday and was impressed to see what we have achieved over the last 2 months. And there is another month to go.

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#39909

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>> Nice!  Is it running a resident MPE Forth on the '2553 part, as
>> indicated by the label?  Or is it 4e4th which is maybe smaller?
> As usual with Forth and especially here, any implementation will do.

Well ok, but I wondered if you were using MPE because 1) I didn't
realize MPE Forth was small enough to run resident on the 2553 (so I
thought maybe you're using a tethered version), and 2) while MPE Forth
is a great product for professional use, if the idea is to empower new
makers/hackers, I think it's best to use completely FOSS software that
they can study and modify and redistribute.

> eForth might be even better as of the 4k footprint, so more space for
> applications.

Wow, I didn't realize eForth was that small.  Interesting.

> MSP430 was chosen as of 20 pins only and availability in a good old
> through hole package - remember, some total beginners will solder here

Yes, it sounded like the main goal was to teach something about
electronics and soldering.  Otherwise it might have been better to use
the Launchpad board or something comparable.  Here are some other
beginning electronic projects that might be of interest:

  https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Circuit_Hacking_Mondays

> Regarding the processor choice: not to forget the tremendous TI
> support - they sent 1000 chips foc -

Yes, it's wonderful to get so much hardware for free.

> Our biggest hardware challenge will be the 1024 unit network (if
> enough scouts get soldering) - all of them connected and controlled
> centrally from one of the same battery driven units.

It will be interesting to hear more about that.  How about something
like a 32x32 Pong game with no central control?  Each unit would be
connected to its neighbors by GPIO, and the paddle and ball locations
would propagate through the network, as would some kind of global "start
new game" command.  

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#39916

Paul, VFX Lite is free ;-)

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#39919

Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> writes:
> Paul, VFX Lite is free ;-)

It's downloadable at no charge, but it's not FOSS unless I'm very
mistaken.

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#39922

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 11:33:05 PM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> >> Nice!  Is it running a resident MPE Forth on the '2553 part, as
> >> indicated by the label?  Or is it 4e4th which is maybe smaller?
> > As usual with Forth and especially here, any implementation will do.
> 
> Well ok, but I wondered if you were using MPE because 1) I didn't
> realize MPE Forth was small enough to run resident on the 2553 (so I
> thought maybe you're using a tethered version), and 2) while MPE Forth
> is a great product for professional use, if the idea is to empower new
> makers/hackers, I think it's best to use completely FOSS software that
> they can study and modify and redistribute.
> 
> > eForth might be even better as of the 4k footprint, so more space for
> > applications.
> 
> Wow, I didn't realize eForth was that small.  Interesting.
> 
> > MSP430 was chosen as of 20 pins only and availability in a good old
> > through hole package - remember, some total beginners will solder here
> 
> Yes, it sounded like the main goal was to teach something about
> electronics and soldering.  Otherwise it might have been better to use
> the Launchpad board or something comparable.  Here are some other
> beginning electronic projects that might be of interest:
> 
>   https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Circuit_Hacking_Mondays
> 
> > Regarding the processor choice: not to forget the tremendous TI
> > support - they sent 1000 chips foc -
> 
> Yes, it's wonderful to get so much hardware for free.
> 
> > Our biggest hardware challenge will be the 1024 unit network (if
> > enough scouts get soldering) - all of them connected and controlled
> > centrally from one of the same battery driven units.
> 
> It will be interesting to hear more about that.  How about something
> like a 32x32 Pong game with no central control?  Each unit would be
> connected to its neighbors by GPIO, and the paddle and ball locations
> would propagate through the network, as would some kind of global "start
> new game" command.

As stated before - MPE's MSP430 LITE and 4e4th.

MSP430 LITE is free of charge
see http://www.mpeforth.com/xc7lite.htm

The LITE version was especially done by MPE after many discussions to have a commercial product, but foc to start with. And it is resident, just add a terminal. Umbilical is possible with it as well.

And there is another and very strong reason: all the software and the examples now done for the MSP430 can be easily ported to the MPE ARM LITE - probably not possible with any other compiler solution as far as I know.
Both versions supported by a commercial Forth supplier.
And there is no reason why the example software cannot be ported to the flavour of the month - or the new compiler not even available yet.

A tethered approach for beginners - I would not even dream about starting them there.

This is an foc project taking a lot of my private time and based on the support of the people who give their time for free. As result it is based on the knowledge they have. 

I had mentioned this hardware a year ago - the resulting comments showed how wide the interest and the wishes go. Well there are enough Arduinos and Pis out there. Would I use a soldering iron on them - probably once.
Can I just repair them by sticking another chip in - no.

Using LP - fine, but who would give us 1000 Launchpads for free for this project - and the electronic badge would be a bit large and heavy to carry around. And you cannot put it in your pocket.

I am thankful about the support I get. 
If people have other and better ideas - well do it and share it.

There is a commercial world out there and there is the rest - no judgement. If the outside world has the idea that Forth is only for hobbyists, it will stay where it is now - or more bluntly it will be less in the next generation to come. 
I got my Starting Forth from a customer as a thank you many years ago, and the language stayed interesting for me , but I was surprised to see how the language world has developed. 

Well the Pong idea is brilliant, can you please expand on the hardware implementation and the software approach you are offering please. 

Our plan is to build a 1024 bit unit with an LED each - bit adresseable.
Any shape is possible as the TicTac Boxes are just mounted on the shape required.

Which leads to a question for all here who might like a little challenge:

A next step would be software wise and for now after the event:

Build a software UART but not standard 8 bit, a lot longer, 1024 bits long plus a few bits, that is for the master to send out this string. The 1024 slaves are only listening to this string and pick out their bit. Just passive in this respect. This would give us the opportunity to transmit to the array a lot faster than bit addressing.
... and if sequential frames are implemented to add information - then more bits per pixel can show a few bits per pixel ...

A test hardware consisting of around 32 units will be built for software testing soon.

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#39938

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> As stated before - MPE's MSP430 LITE and 4e4th.

Ah, ok, I wasn't completely understanding this earlier.

> The LITE version was especially done by MPE after many discussions to
> have a commercial product, but foc to start with. And it is resident,
> just add a terminal. Umbilical is possible with it as well.

Do you (or Stephen) happen to know the code size for the resident
interpreter on the 2553?  Is it possible to compile to flash from the
interpreter on the 2553 directly, without the Launchpad FET?

> And there is another and very strong reason: all the software and the
> examples now done for the MSP430 can be easily ported to the MPE ARM
> LITE - probably not possible with any other compiler solution as far
> as I know.

I expect this is possible with eForth.  4e4th is based on Camelforth
which at the moment doesn't appear to run on the ARM, but run on various
other cpus so maybe it can be ported to the ARM someday.

> I had mentioned this hardware a year ago - the resulting comments
> showed how wide the interest and the wishes go. Well there are enough
> Arduinos and Pis out there. 

I agree this seems like a really nice project for teaching MCU
electronics.  

> Using LP - fine, but who would give us 1000 Launchpads for free for
> this project -

Well you could ask TI about it... FWIW they are having a sale on the
FRAM MSP430 Launchpad that has an LCD display.  But, using a ready-made
board is more for teaching programming than electronics.

> and the electronic badge would be a bit large and heavy to carry
> around. And you cannot put it in your pocket.

Do you mean the electronic badge from the Noisebridge page I linked?
I've seen them and want one myself sometime.  It's really cool and you
can easily put it in your pocket when you're not wearing it.  

The people taking the Noisebridge class do have to pay for those kits
themselves, which gives a bit more flexibility about what can go into
them.  If your Scout event has to give away all the hardware for free,
it's understandable that your possibilities are much more limited.

> Well the Pong idea is brilliant, can you please expand on the hardware
> implementation and the software approach you are offering please.

I was imagining something like the GA144 architecture, where each node
would have 4 connections to its orthogonal neighbors.  Originally I
thought of just passing data, but (like the GA and per some of Bernd P's
posts) it would be really cool to connect the ports up to the Forth
interpreter, using software UARTs if necessary.  The MPE interpreter
apparently has multitasking, which could be useful for that.

The cute thing about this is the nodes wouldn't have to know their own
coordinates.  They'd all run exactly the same code and start with the
same data.  One of them would have an additional connection to an
outside terminal.  There could be a command like

  : LED-ON ( x y -- ) ... ;

which would turn on the node's LED if x and y are both 0.  Otherwise it
would adjust x and y and pass the command to a neighboring node, i.e.  
8 5 LED-ON on Jane's node would send "8 4 LED-ON" to Jane's node's
rightward neighbor and so on, so eventually the node 8 upward and 5 to
the right of Jane's would turn on its LED.

It could also be cool to have hypercube wiring instead of the horizontal
grid.  I guess both of these make the wiring much more complicated than
your broadcast bus idea though.

You'd want to have a header on the board so each kid could wire up his
or her own node to its neighbors on the big panel with solderless
breadboard jumpers.  The header would also make it easier to connect up
the board to other devices.

> Our plan is to build a 1024 bit unit with an LED each - bit
> adresseable.  Any shape is possible as the TicTac Boxes are just
> mounted on the shape required.

I didn't know TicTac boxes were involved, or that they could hold the
board and batteries.  Sounds nice.

I guess you were thinking of a giant broadcast bus rather than some kind
of fanout scheme, so ok, I guess that's doable.  

> Build a software UART but not standard 8 bit, a lot longer, 1024 bits

This doesn't seem like a great idea.  I'd go with standard 8 bit.  The
nodes could still all listen to it for data that interested them.  You
could send Forth commands like $25 BLINK to tell node #25 (hex) to blink
its led, or something like RLEBLINK to broadcast a 1024 bit RLE encoded
bit stream, where each node would blink its led if the appropriate bit
was set.

> A test hardware consisting of around 32 units will be built for
> software testing soon.

Nice.  Maybe you could make the initial ones on protoboards:

   http://www.adafruit.com/products/1608  (soldered)
   http://www.adafruit.com/products/65    (solderless)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#39948

On Sunday, June 21, 2015 at 6:39:39 PM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> > As stated before - MPE's MSP430 LITE and 4e4th.
> 
> Ah, ok, I wasn't completely understanding this earlier.
> 
> > The LITE version was especially done by MPE after many discussions to
> > have a commercial product, but foc to start with. And it is resident,
> > just add a terminal. Umbilical is possible with it as well.
> 
> Do you (or Stephen) happen to know the code size for the resident
> interpreter on the 2553?  Is it possible to compile to flash from the
> interpreter on the 2553 directly, without the Launchpad FET?

You can use INCLUDE - or reflash via LP

> 
> > And there is another and very strong reason: all the software and the
> > examples now done for the MSP430 can be easily ported to the MPE ARM
> > LITE - probably not possible with any other compiler solution as far
> > as I know.
> 
> I expect this is possible with eForth.  4e4th is based on Camelforth
> which at the moment doesn't appear to run on the ARM, but run on various
> other cpus so maybe it can be ported to the ARM someday.

Everything is possible, but somebody (other probably) has to do it. Can I start a project with a deadline without having a delivery plan ? No. Good ideas can only help us on future projects - I rather stick to what I can see and get hold of now.

> 
> > I had mentioned this hardware a year ago - the resulting comments
> > showed how wide the interest and the wishes go. Well there are enough
> > Arduinos and Pis out there. 
> 
> I agree this seems like a really nice project for teaching MCU
> electronics.  

Thank  you - and it could hardly be more minimal and scalable:
Absolute: PCB - Chip - R - C - C  - R - LED
Interface;  add the header or headers
Mobile: add the batteries
Enclosed: add the TicTac box you just enjoyed, and put it in your pocket
PC programming: add your USBtoTTL cable
External IO:  stick it into the IO headers or solder on
Plus Shield:   add a shield with buttons, more LEDs and an LDR as analog IO
Plus_Custom:  hat you can think or and share with others
Flash in the MMT:  that we had done before as seen on www.forth-ev.de
FLASH IN MYCO, a little simulated Micro : start programming by just using the 3 buttons and 5 LEDs - no PC required
in the works: Start programming in Forth using a minimal word set to understand how the micro works, using the same shield or connect directly to the board
.

> 
> > Using LP - fine, but who would give us 1000 Launchpads for free for
> > this project -
> 
> Well you could ask TI about it... FWIW they are having a sale on the
> FRAM MSP430 Launchpad that has an LCD display.  But, using a ready-made
> board is more for teaching programming than electronics.

I tried to be realistic and start the project in a way that I can follow it through successfully.

> 
> > and the electronic badge would be a bit large and heavy to carry
> > around. And you cannot put it in your pocket.
> 
> Do you mean the electronic badge from the Noisebridge page I linked?
> I've seen them and want one myself sometime.  It's really cool and you
> can easily put it in your pocket when you're not wearing it. 

No, this is our badge, you see it in the PDF on Forth-eV
 
> 
> The people taking the Noisebridge class do have to pay for those kits
> themselves, which gives a bit more flexibility about what can go into
> them.  If your Scout event has to give away all the hardware for free,
> it's understandable that your possibilities are much more limited.

Exactly.

> 
> > Well the Pong idea is brilliant, can you please expand on the hardware
> > implementation and the software approach you are offering please.
> 
> I was imagining something like the GA144 architecture, where each node
> would have 4 connections to its orthogonal neighbors.  Originally I
> thought of just passing data, but (like the GA and per some of Bernd P's
> posts) it would be really cool to connect the ports up to the Forth
> interpreter, using software UARTs if necessary.  The MPE interpreter
> apparently has multitasking, which could be useful for that.

You just discovered a secret. Longer term the idea was to emulate a G1 with a suitable interface.
Can you point out where such an interface can be found? I just planned something like the TransputerLink, or in the beginning just serial interfaces.

> 
> The cute thing about this is the nodes wouldn't have to know their own
> coordinates.  They'd all run exactly the same code and start with the
> same data.  One of them would have an additional connection to an
> outside terminal.  There could be a command like
> 
>   : LED-ON ( x y -- ) ... ;
> 
> which would turn on the node's LED if x and y are both 0.  Otherwise it
> would adjust x and y and pass the command to a neighboring node, i.e.  
> 8 5 LED-ON on Jane's node would send "8 4 LED-ON" to Jane's node's
> rightward neighbor and so on, so eventually the node 8 upward and 5 to
> the right of Jane's would turn on its LED.
> 
> It could also be cool to have hypercube wiring instead of the horizontal
> grid.  I guess both of these make the wiring much more complicated than
> your broadcast bus idea though.

All possible with this hardware (within limits, so we do an SGA1k ( Scouts GA with 1k nodes)

> 
> You'd want to have a header on the board so each kid could wire up his
> or her own node to its neighbors on the big panel with solderless
> breadboard jumpers.  The header would also make it easier to connect up
> the board to other devices.

Implemented or prepared for already

> 
> > Our plan is to build a 1024 bit unit with an LED each - bit
> > adresseable.  Any shape is possible as the TicTac Boxes are just
> > mounted on the shape required.
> 
> I didn't know TicTac boxes were involved, or that they could hold the
> board and batteries.  Sounds nice.

We needed an enclosure - and I found this solution
Two AAAs and a little PCB fills it. ( or 2 boards and a coin cell )

> 
> I guess you were thinking of a giant broadcast bus rather than some kind
> of fanout scheme, so ok, I guess that's doable.  

The only reliable and fault tolerant solution for now

> 
> > Build a software UART but not standard 8 bit, a lot longer, 1024 bits
> 
> This doesn't seem like a great idea.  I'd go with standard 8 bit.  The
> nodes could still all listen to it for data that interested them.  You
> could send Forth commands like $25 BLINK to tell node #25 (hex) to blink
> its led, or something like RLEBLINK to broadcast a 1024 bit RLE encoded
> bit stream, where each node would blink its led if the appropriate bit
> was set.

I kindly disagree. Direct addressing can only be done in roughly
Guess 5 bytes per addressing x 1000 
1kUART is 1k bits, so very roughly 5 times faster, if I calculated correctly 10 frames per second - moving graphics
or just to dream as there would not be time enough now:
2 combined frames ( or 2k UART ) gives 5 frames per second and 4 levels of brightness - slow scan TV, which would make picture generation easier using a camera or video signal
> 
> > A test hardware consisting of around 32 units will be built for
> > software testing soon.

CORRECTION: a 16 node unit plus the related repeater has been built over the weekend.  I will try to have a picture  put up on the MMT website.
No prototype boards but using last year's MMT boards.
So it is time for the software department now to get programming to test it.
A second node probably next week.

> 
> Nice.  Maybe you could make the initial ones on protoboards:
> 
>    http://www.adafruit.com/products/1608  (soldered)
>    http://www.adafruit.com/products/65    (solderless)

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#39977

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>> 4e4th ... maybe it can be ported to the ARM someday.
> Everything is possible, but somebody (other probably) has to do it...
> Can I start a project with a deadline without having a delivery
> plan ? No. Good ideas can only help us on future projects

Right, I wasn't suggesting you do such a port, just that it's something
to know about if you have an ongoing in Forth for the MSP430.

I also notice that amForth now runs on the 430:

  http://amforth.sourceforge.net/

This is a very well documented system that runs on the Arduino and
claims "AmForth implements an almost compatible Forth 2012 indirect
threading 16bit Forth."  But, I've never used it and the 430 port is
newer and (for now) possibly less developed.

>> it would be really cool to connect the ports up to the Forth
>> interpreter, using software UARTs if necessary.
> Can you point out where such an interface can be found? I just planned
> something like the TransputerLink, or in the beginning just serial
> interfaces.

I just meant wires connecting the cpus together through gpio and bit
banging, since there's just one hardware uart per chip.  

Actually a REALLY crazy idea might be an all-to-all spread spectrum
broadcast network.  You'd connect an analog pin from each chip through a
resistor to a giant backplane (aluminum foil sheet maybe).  Then you'd
pulse messages to the backplane according to a spreading sequence
generated from the target address.  The target would listen to the
backplane with a software autocorrelator.  The bit rate would have to be
pretty low.

>> TicTac boxes
> Two AAAs and a little PCB fills it. ( or 2 boards and a coin cell )

Nice, somehow I thought those boxes were smaller, but I haven't looked
at one lately.

>> I guess you were thinking of a giant broadcast bus 
> The only reliable and fault tolerant solution for now

The GA1K scheme sounds potentially workable.

>> > Build a software UART but not standard 8 bit, a lot longer, 1024 bits
>> RLEBLINK to broadcast a 1024 bit RLE encoded bit stream
> I kindly disagree. Direct addressing can only be done in roughly
> Guess 5 bytes per addressing x 1000 
> 1kUART is 1k bits, so very roughly 5 times faster,

You'd need 10 bits to address 1024 nodes individually, but the idea
wasn't to send a separate address with each bit.  It's just to send the
1024 bits as 128 8-bit bytes with a normal uart, rather than a special
software uart that collects all the bits synchronously.  That lets you
use the hardware uart on the chips.  Also in the case of normal graphics
where most of the leds are on or off, RLE (run-length encoding) can
compress the 1024 bits by quite a lot.

> if I calculated correctly 10 frames per second - moving graphics

If you want to display video then the transmission speed matters, 30 fps
x 1000 bits = 30k bits/sec, or with 3-bit greyscale (PWM dimming) 90k,
and maybe the uart can run at 115k, so there's a chance.

For the Pong game I was imagining something more like a cellular
simulation.  The 4(?) nodes displaying the "ball" would move the ball by
informing their neighbor in the appropriate direction that the ball was
moving to them.  Eventually the ball would hit a node with a paddle and
bounce.  The paddle nodes would also move up and down by local
communication.  This is more in the G1K spirit, I think.  You wouldn't
have to send anything to all 1024 nodes simultaneously, though there
would have to be some kind of "reset" message that you'd send to
initialize the board at the start of the game.  It's ok if that
propagates through the network at fairly low speed, like 100's of msec
to reach all the nodes, before the game starts.

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#39957

On Sun, 21 Jun 2015 10:39:36 -0700, Paul Rubin
<no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>Do you (or Stephen) happen to know the code size for the resident
>interpreter on the 2553?

It's 12 kb with the tools for comfortable use with the supplied IDE
that includes editor, terminal emulator and command tool (for the
cross compiler).

> Is it possible to compile to flash from the
>interpreter on the 2553 directly, without the Launchpad FET?

Yes.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#39932

On Sat, 20 Jun 2015 15:33:01 -0700, Paul Rubin
<no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>>> Nice!  Is it running a resident MPE Forth on the '2553 part, as
>>> indicated by the label?  Or is it 4e4th which is maybe smaller?
>> As usual with Forth and especially here, any implementation will do.
>
>Well ok, but I wondered if you were using MPE because 1) I didn't
>realize MPE Forth was small enough to run resident on the 2553 (so I
>thought maybe you're using a tethered version), and 2) while MPE Forth
>is a great product for professional use, if the idea is to empower new
>makers/hackers, I think it's best to use completely FOSS software that
>they can study and modify and redistribute.

The free (of charge) MPE Lite compiler for the MSP430 targets the 
'2553 part with a standalone Forth. An umbilical Forth is also
available but needs a protocol update to be useful.

The Lite compiler has direct integration to the 2553 Launchpad's FET.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#39908

On Wednesday, June 17, 2015 at 10:53:37 PM UTC+1, JUERGEN wrote:
> How can we promote the Forth language usage? 
> Go to the Young Generation, 
> or maker fares
> and next to the Coder Clubs
> and schools
> 
> When the IET asked us to support an electronics activity at this year's Scout's Jamboree in the UK, we said yes - not knowing really what we got ourselves onto. 
> A lot more work than we had assumed.
> But there we are:
> Design the board and the system
> Plan the software
> Prepare for worst case component scenarios - but still make sure for a positive experience for up to 1000 scouts.
> 
> This is where we thought it stops 
> - but then we found out that there is no budget really for this project 
> - so learning about fundraising was then included as well. 
> And people we knew have been appreciating the work we do, supporting us with components and money.
> 
> 
> Finding money and components was key for the success of this project.
> MPE was very helpful, as was HIDECS. And Michael and Dirk. 
> Anybody I asked contributed where possible.
> 
> If you or your company wants to help and get their logo into the prospectus - just go ahead. Send £100 and a logo - and you are in as the others.
> 
> For the rest of the supporters have a look at the official link
> 
> http://mycommunity.theiet.org/blogs/96/2612
> 
> and more on the Forth side:
> 
> http://www.forth-ev.de/   click on English version
> Download the main scouts files from here.
> 
> And as you are there, have a look as well at MMT, as this scouts project is using the same hardware:
> 
> http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/projects:mmt4ue2:start
> here as well as German and as English version
> 
> As this scouts jamboree is an international event, we assume we can spread the Forth message further.
> 
> As you can  see, FTDI has already donated USBtoTTL cables - so the scouts can start programming in Forth - at the event  or later.
> 
> Some schools have found this project already and called me, and we will support them after the event end of July. 
> A bit simpler to control IO and LEDs than using Phython and RPI ...
> And definitely an intelligent IO even for Arduino and RPI.
> 
> As of today we have nearly all of the parts - the rest should come in over the next 4 weeks.
> If not donated, then sponsors have given the money to buy the missing parts.
> 
> The system shows the beating heart of the owner as seen on the Forth-ev website 
> - and they can all be connected as a social network, 
>      the Forth software is nearly ready.
> 
> During the next weeks  we are preparing a simple Forth programming scenario as we are sure the hardware will be there; 
> just using about 20 Forth Words to have a minimum Word set to control IOs 
> - the full Forth Word set is available in the background anyway for further programming and it all is programmed into the MSP430.
> 
> I might come back to the Forth Community soon, showing the minimum hardware and asking for simple Forth examples using this hardware to support this project.

Hi Juergen & Team,

Excellent project :-)

Best regards,
Howerd

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#39946

JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> As you can see, FTDI has already donated USBtoTTL cables - so the
> scouts can start programming in Forth - at the event or later.

Did they give you 1000 cables?  If not, it occurs to me, maybe you could
implement software USB like the Digispark and similar tiny *duinos do.
There are various implementations around, including I think on
adafruit.com.  So you'd be able to use a USB cable with no FTDI chip.
You could put a micro usb connector on the board for that, and also use
it for power, turning the batteries into a user option.

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#39949

On Monday, June 22, 2015 at 3:37:06 AM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
> > As you can see, FTDI has already donated USBtoTTL cables - so the
> > scouts can start programming in Forth - at the event or later.
> 
> Did they give you 1000 cables?  If not, it occurs to me, maybe you could
> implement software USB like the Digispark and similar tiny *duinos do.
> There are various implementations around, including I think on
> adafruit.com.  So you'd be able to use a USB cable with no FTDI chip.
> You could put a micro usb connector on the board for that, and also use
> it for power, turning the batteries into a user option.

This question cannot be serious, teasing for example?
a) 1000 USBto TTL cables, that is a value of 20 000 Dollars
b) where are the 1000 PCs coming from to connect the cables to? And where do you put them, 250 additional tables and a hall to be rented. 
An additional power consumption of 1k x 50 watts = 50kW
... plus 150 to 250 extention cables to power them - and a very large socket.
c) you could not have a the boards close enough to have a display

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