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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #35035 > unrolled thread

FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science !

Started byvisualforth@rocketmail.com
First post2014-12-19 15:59 -0800
Last post2014-12-23 15:16 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 340 — 34 participants

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Contents

  FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-12-19 15:59 -0800
    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-20 08:36 +0000
      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-20 03:40 -0600
        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-20 13:57 +0000
          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-21 04:38 -0600
            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-21 21:38 +0000
              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-21 16:32 -0600
                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-22 03:56 +0000
                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mhx@iae.nl - 2014-12-22 00:53 -0800
                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-12-22 13:43 +0000
                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 02:57 +0000
                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 03:38 +0000
                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 02:42 +0000
                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-12-22 11:42 +0000
                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 07:51 -0500
                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-12-22 15:59 +0000
                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 11:17 -0500
                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 02:57 +0000
                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 06:09 +0000
                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-12-23 12:44 +0000
                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 13:12 +0000
                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 07:57 -0800
                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-23 10:31 -0600
                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 12:27 -0800
                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-23 15:04 -0600
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 19:28 -0800
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-25 02:43 -0600
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-12-25 20:36 +0000
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-25 11:43 +0000
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-12-25 20:40 +0000
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-26 13:37 +0000
                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-12-26 11:40 -1000
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-05 19:33 +0000
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-05 21:31 -0800
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-05 21:33 -1000
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-06 10:24 +0000
                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 10:13 -1000
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-07 00:41 +0000
                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 14:59 -1000
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-06 11:53 +0000
                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 10:16 -1000
                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 18:56 +0000
                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 12:31 -0800
                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-25 18:44 +0000
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-12-25 12:46 -0800
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-26 14:08 +0000
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2014-12-27 09:48 -0800
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-27 12:05 -0800
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-12-29 13:08 -0800
                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 20:13 +0000
                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 20:21 +0000
                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 12:39 -0800
                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-23 15:16 -0600
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 17:40 -0800
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-24 05:34 +0100
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 21:12 -0800
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-24 12:40 +0000
                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 09:40 -0800
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-25 08:52 +0000
                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-25 09:18 +0000
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-25 11:14 +0000
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-24 12:53 +0000
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 09:15 -0800
                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-25 12:07 +0000
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-25 11:00 -0800
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-24 03:26 -0600
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-25 19:45 +0100
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-24 05:31 +0100
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-24 03:28 -0600
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-24 11:36 +0000
                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 22:08 +0000
                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 14:27 -0800
                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-23 22:58 +0000
                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-23 15:38 -0800
                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-25 02:37 +0000
                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 19:16 -0800
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-25 06:30 +0000
                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 22:49 -0800
                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 07:15 +0000
                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 23:32 -0800
                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 10:39 +0000
                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 10:56 +0000
                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-26 01:21 +0100
                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mix <mix@test.net> - 2014-12-25 09:06 +0000
                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-25 09:39 -0800
                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-25 21:15 +0000
                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-25 23:34 +0100
                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-25 17:09 -0800
                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-26 02:22 +0100
                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-25 17:49 -0800
                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-26 05:22 +0100
                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-26 14:00 +0000
                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-26 16:13 +0100
                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-27 09:50 +0000
                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-27 04:41 +0100
                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-27 10:21 +0000
                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-30 11:50 -0800
                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-12-31 15:02 +0100
                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-12-26 03:28 -0600
                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-26 10:35 +0000
                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-26 14:54 -0800
                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2014-12-26 16:36 -0800
                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-26 21:19 -0800
                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-27 10:17 +0000
                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-27 12:09 -0800
                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-01 21:07 +0100
                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-02 11:42 -0800
                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-01-02 12:45 -0800
                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-02 23:42 +0100
                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-04 14:05 -0800
                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-06 03:51 +0100
                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-05 20:02 -0800
                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-05 19:25 -1000
                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-07 14:52 -0800
                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-09 08:04 +0300
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-08 21:14 -1000
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-09 16:25 +0300
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-09 09:10 -1000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-10 14:35 +0300
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-10 20:51 -1000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-01-11 11:29 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 03:46 -0800
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-01-11 15:58 +0100
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-11 23:01 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 16:19 -0800
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-11 16:50 -0800
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-12 08:53 +0300
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-12 08:28 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-12 11:10 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-01-11 11:30 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 16:56 +0300
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-11 19:47 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-12 08:03 +0300
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-01-11 23:44 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-12 09:05 +0300
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-12 10:56 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-31 10:37 +0000
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-01-09 23:01 +0100
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-10 14:43 +0300
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-01-11 23:45 +0100
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-12 09:09 +0300
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-09 10:52 -0800
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-10 15:31 +0300
                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-05 23:34 -0800
                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-05 22:22 -1000
                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-06 08:41 -0800
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 10:30 -1000
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-06 13:37 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 13:02 -1000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-06 15:31 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-07 01:15 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 15:23 -1000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-06 19:25 -0800
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 17:52 -1000
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-06 21:15 -0800
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-06 19:30 -1000
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2015-01-07 05:07 -0600
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-07 15:08 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2015-01-07 12:41 -0600
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-07 11:09 -1000
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-07 08:02 -0800
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-07 11:52 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-01-09 14:14 -0800
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-09 20:04 -0800
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-10 20:57 -1000
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 08:31 -0800
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-11 19:59 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-01-11 22:51 -0800
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-15 22:34 -0800
                                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-01-16 08:56 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-01-07 01:54 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-01-07 12:33 +0000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-07 14:25 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-07 16:37 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-07 15:02 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-07 06:00 -0800
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-07 08:49 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-07 10:06 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-07 18:09 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-07 10:16 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2015-01-10 16:48 +0300
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-08 16:25 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-08 08:50 -1000
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mhx@iae.nl - 2015-01-07 10:37 -0800
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-08 16:32 +0000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2015-01-09 18:28 -0500
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2015-01-07 07:31 -0500
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-07 16:24 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-08 14:02 +0000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-08 09:26 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-08 17:44 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-08 11:01 -0800
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-07 17:18 +0000
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-07 09:44 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-08 09:31 +0000
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-11 03:37 +0000
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-07 15:21 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-07 18:19 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-08 09:40 +0000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-08 14:49 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-08 17:02 -0800
                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2015-01-06 04:42 -0600
                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-06 08:13 -0800
                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-09 02:52 +0100
                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-08 18:34 -0800
                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-08 20:29 -0800
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-08 21:30 -1000
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-09 11:14 -0800
                                                                                              Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-09 22:18 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-10 03:15 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-09 20:56 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-12 03:02 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-12 10:14 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-10 11:39 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-13 18:08 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-13 20:04 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-14 02:43 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-14 13:34 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-15 02:03 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-15 12:03 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-15 06:47 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-10 19:15 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-10 12:52 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-10 19:05 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-11 09:28 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-11 14:45 -1000
                                                                                                      Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-12 18:28 -0800
                                                                                                        Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-12 17:12 -1000
                                                                                                          Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-12 20:55 -0800
                                                                                                            Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-01-13 03:48 -0800
                                                                                                              Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-13 06:05 -0800
                                                                                                                Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-13 06:34 -0800
                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-13 06:51 -0800
                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-01-13 08:03 -0800
                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-13 19:18 -0800
                                                                                                                Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-01-13 08:26 -0800
                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-13 09:54 -0800
                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-13 17:35 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-13 18:19 -0800
                                                                                                                      Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-14 21:03 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-14 21:07 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-15 01:06 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-01-15 00:52 -0800
                                                                                                                          Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-15 01:17 -0800
                                                                                                                          Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-15 17:35 -1000
                                                                                                                          Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-15 20:38 -0800
                                                                                                                            Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-16 10:47 -0800
                                                                                                                              Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-16 20:47 +0100
                                                                                                                                Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-01-16 14:37 -0800
                                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-01-16 17:26 -0800
                                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-17 03:03 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-01-13 10:40 -1000
                                                                                                                    Re: Standards (was FORTH on the ...) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-13 19:04 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-11 23:24 +0000
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-09 18:09 +0100
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-09 09:31 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-09 11:16 -0800
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-09 22:38 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-01-16 13:44 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-17 02:39 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-17 13:37 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-17 18:44 +0100
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-18 12:57 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-18 22:48 +0100
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-19 03:10 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-18 18:41 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-17 11:45 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-17 17:57 -0800
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-18 14:57 -0800
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! awegel@arcor.de (Alexander Wegel) - 2015-01-19 00:49 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-19 15:04 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! beeflo <beeflobill@gmail.com> - 2015-01-19 16:24 -0800
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-01-20 03:26 +0100
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-01-20 04:23 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-23 21:42 -0800
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-20 20:05 -0800
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-20 07:10 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-20 12:04 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-20 16:11 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-20 20:40 -0800
                                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-01-20 23:29 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-20 20:00 -0800
                                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-21 01:55 -0800
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-22 00:05 -0800
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-01-19 07:42 -0800
                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-06 09:50 +0000
                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2015-01-06 04:38 -0600
                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-09 21:34 -0800
                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-09 23:28 -0800
                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "hughaguilar96@yahoo.com" <hughaguilar96@gmail.com> - 2015-01-10 11:10 -0800
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-11 00:49 -0800
                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-12 22:42 +0000
                                                                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-12 17:33 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-12 19:17 -0800
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-12 21:06 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2015-01-13 04:08 -0800
                                                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-13 15:00 +0000
                                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-13 18:45 -0800
                                                                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-13 21:12 -0800
                                                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-16 20:41 -0800
                                                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-21 20:42 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-01-21 23:19 -0800
                                                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-01-26 20:20 +0000
                                                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2015-01-05 10:31 +0000
                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2014-12-27 07:16 -0800
                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-27 13:08 -0800
                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-27 10:54 -0800
                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2014-12-27 11:01 -0800
                                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-27 21:25 -0800
                                                                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2014-12-29 05:20 -0800
                                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-04 11:53 +0000
                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! mhx@iae.nl - 2015-01-04 05:02 -0800
                                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-01-04 08:00 -0800
                                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-12-26 15:00 +0100
                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-26 13:35 +0000
                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-25 10:55 +0000
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 07:08 +0000
                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-24 23:27 -0800
                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 10:34 +0000
                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-25 09:47 -0800
                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 19:44 +0000
                                              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-25 11:00 +0000
                                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 12:01 +0000
                                                  Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-25 16:03 +0000
                                                    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Tom O'Donnell <tod@nospam.com> - 2014-12-25 17:20 +0000
                                                      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2014-12-26 21:53 -0800
                                                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-01-08 22:30 +0000
                                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-25 20:00 +0100
                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-25 08:36 +0000
                                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-12-25 19:36 +0100
                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-05 19:09 +0000
                        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-23 15:35 +0000
                          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-01-05 19:16 +0000
                            Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-01-08 15:51 +0000
              Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-21 16:02 -0800
                Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-12-22 10:51 -0800
    Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-12-22 05:47 -0800
      Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 09:10 -0500
        Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-12-22 15:23 +0000
          Re: FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science ! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-12-23 15:16 +0000

Page 1 of 17  [1] 2 3 … 17  Next page →


#35035 — FORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science !

Fromvisualforth@rocketmail.com
Date2014-12-19 15:59 -0800
SubjectFORTH on the Advanced Placement Computer Science !
Message-ID<67e78e28-e415-46f4-b3b1-d3072e74f392@googlegroups.com>
You may know that there are rules which programming language has to be taught in the United States. It is called Advanced Placement Computer Science.

It's interesting to read about the decisions of the board which programming language is the one to be taught:

"In the early 1990s it became clear that colleges were moving away from Pascal toward languages that allowed the creation of abstract data types that could be written in separate modules and incorporated into any program."

Hear, hear! Could this been a decision to approve Forth? 
Where did it go?

"So, the AP Computer Science Development Committee chose C++ as the language that would best keep the AP courses comparable to their college counterparts, and teachers learned a new syntax as well as how to design and implement classes...
Between the time that the decision was made to switch to C++ and the first AP Exam in C++ in 1999, Java came onto the scene. Java is a safer language than C++ and has a clean way of implementing inheritance. At the 1999 AP Reading, we were already hearing speculation that Java was on the way -- and
indeed, Java became the new language for AP Computer Science in 2004. 

It was chosen because it was judged to be one of the best available languages to teach the fundamental concepts that colleges require beginning computer science students to know, and because a significant percentage of colleges are currently using it as their introductory language, increasing the likelihood that AP students will receive college credit for their work."

One of the best available languages - but certainly not the best!

"Look back at the definition of computer science. With all three languages, Pascal, C++, and Java, AP CS instructors have taught and are teaching the concepts listed in this definition. The design methodology has changed, and so has the knowledge representation and implementation, but we are still teaching these essential principles.
What will happen in the future? Is there a new language on the horizon? I don't know. I do know that computer science is a dynamic field. As it changes and grows, so will AP Computer Science."

We all know that there is a new language on the horizon, since nearly five decades. This programming language is called "FORTH" - in 2018 it will be the AP Computer Science programming language. 

Sources: 
AP Computer Science Teacher's Guide, Chapter 1: About AP Computer Science
http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/repository/ap07_compsci_teachersguide.pdf
http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/ap-computer-science-course-description.pdf
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2014/12/08/celebrating-computer-science-education-week-kids-code-white-house

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]


#35043

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-20 08:36 +0000
Message-ID<m73ceo$i96$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35035
<visualforth@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> You may know that there are rules which programming language has to be
> taught in the United States. It is called Advanced Placement Computer Science.
> 
> It's interesting to read about the decisions of the board which
> programming language is the one to be taught:
> 
> "In the early 1990s it became clear that colleges were moving away from
> Pascal toward languages that allowed the creation of abstract data types
> that could be written in separate modules and incorporated into any program."
> 
> Hear, hear! Could this been a decision to approve Forth? 
> Where did it go?
> 
> "So, the AP Computer Science Development Committee chose C++ as the
> language that would best keep the AP courses comparable to their college
> counterparts, and teachers learned a new syntax as well as how to design
> and implement classes...
> Between the time that the decision was made to switch to C++ and the
> first AP Exam in C++ in 1999, Java came onto the scene. Java is a safer
> language than C++ and has a clean way of implementing inheritance. At the
> 1999 AP Reading, we were already hearing speculation that Java was on the way -- and
> indeed, Java became the new language for AP Computer Science in 2004. 
> 
> It was chosen because it was judged to be one of the best available
> languages to teach the fundamental concepts that colleges require
> beginning computer science students to know, and because a significant
> percentage of colleges are currently using it as their introductory
> language, increasing the likelihood that AP students will receive college
> credit for their work."
> 
> One of the best available languages - but certainly not the best!
> 
> "Look back at the definition of computer science. With all three
> languages, Pascal, C++, and Java, AP CS instructors have taught and are
> teaching the concepts listed in this definition. The design methodology
> has changed, and so has the knowledge representation and implementation,
> but we are still teaching these essential principles.
> What will happen in the future? Is there a new language on the horizon? I
> don't know. I do know that computer science is a dynamic field. As it
> changes and grows, so will AP Computer Science."
> 
> We all know that there is a new language on the horizon, since nearly
> five decades. This programming language is called "FORTH" - in 2018 it
> will be the AP Computer Science programming language. 

Is it clearly stated somewhere? I didn't follow links you gave us because I
already know that C++ and Java are used in education.

I don't see how Forth could be "safer" than C++ or Java. ANS Forth and many
specific translators lacks many features of popular high level languages,
especially safety features. Many translators will crash when trying to get
value out of empty stack, and it's completely normal.

I think Forth could be really useful in education field, but not because
it's the "best" language over there (even thought I like Forth and
Assembler better then any other language).

I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to start with
Assembler, then let students write high level language on it, and Forth
would be the best choice here because of its simplicity.

It seems in many cases people think that programming is a part of math, and
first things students have to learn are math and algorithms. However, math
is pure abstraction, but in real life we have to work with real machines
and write algorithms for real processors.

When student is writing something like a tree or another data structure
implementation, he already should understand how it would look in RAM, and
what price will be paid for speed or lesser memory consumption.

Well, that's just my opinion.

> Sources: 
> AP Computer Science Teacher's Guide, Chapter 1: About AP Computer Science
> http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/repository/ap07_compsci_teachersguide.pdf
> http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/public/repository/ap-computer-science-course-description.pdf
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2014/12/08/celebrating-computer-science-education-week-kids-code-white-house


-- 
mix x

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#35045

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2014-12-20 03:40 -0600
Message-ID<AMednTSjdpqH2QjJnZ2dnUU7-a2dnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#35043
mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
> 
> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to start with
> Assembler, then let students write high level language on it, and Forth
> would be the best choice here because of its simplicity.

I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
frustrating.

Andrew.

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#35052

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-20 13:57 +0000
Message-ID<m73v90$mo4$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35045
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to start with
>> Assembler, then let students write high level language on it, and Forth
>> would be the best choice here because of its simplicity.
> 
> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
> frustrating.
> 
> Andrew.

Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
exactly why is it crashing.

-- 
mix x

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#35072

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2014-12-21 04:38 -0600
Message-ID<75OdnQZOi_GsPgvJnZ2dnUU7-fmdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#35052
mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to start with
>>> Assembler, then let students write high level language on it, and Forth
>>> would be the best choice here because of its simplicity.
>> 
>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>> frustrating.
> 
> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
> exactly why is it crashing.

Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.

Andrew.

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#35079

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-21 21:38 +0000
Message-ID<m77ek8$ggl$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35072
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to start with
>>>> Assembler, then let students write high level language on it, and Forth
>>>> would be the best choice here because of its simplicity.
>>> 
>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>> frustrating.
>> 
>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>> exactly why is it crashing.
> 
> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
> 
> Andrew.

Disagree.

Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?

-- 
mix x

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#35083

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2014-12-21 16:32 -0600
Message-ID<JbKdnRMTTu3g1wrJnZ2dnUU7-b2dnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#35079
mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to
>>>>> start with Assembler, then let students write high level
>>>>> language on it, and Forth would be the best choice here because
>>>>> of its simplicity.
>>>> 
>>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>>> frustrating.
>>> 
>>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>>> exactly why is it crashing.
>> 
>> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
> 
> Disagree.
> 
> Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?

Sure; it's right up there, about twenty lines above this one.  I don't
quite know why you believe that a beginner knows exactly why their
assembly language program is crashing.  Assembly language isn't all
that easy to understand.  Debugging assembly language is difficult.

Andrew.

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#35093

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-22 03:56 +0000
Message-ID<m784pf$ngd$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35083
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to
>>>>>> start with Assembler, then let students write high level
>>>>>> language on it, and Forth would be the best choice here because
>>>>>> of its simplicity.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>>>> frustrating.
>>>> 
>>>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>>>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>>>> exactly why is it crashing.
>>> 
>>> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
>> 
>> Disagree.
>> 
>> Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?
> 
> Sure; it's right up there, about twenty lines above this one.  I don't
> quite know why you believe that a beginner knows exactly why their
> assembly language program is crashing.  Assembly language isn't all
> that easy to understand.  Debugging assembly language is difficult.

Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.

-- 
mix x

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#35097

Frommhx@iae.nl
Date2014-12-22 00:53 -0800
Message-ID<a026689d-c89f-46e8-b855-1f2c4ebf11b4@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#35093
On Monday, December 22, 2014 4:56:33 AM UTC+1, mix wrote:
[..]
> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
[..]

I made an error here ...

FORTH> see ud/mod
Flags:
$01131438  pop           r8
$0113143A  pop           rcx
$0113143B  pop           rbx
$0113143C  pop           rdx
$0113143D  pop           rax
$0113143E  test          rcx, rcx
$01131441  jne           $01131462 offset SHORT
$01131443  cmp           rdx, rbx
$01131446  jb            $01131457 offset SHORT
$01131448  mov           rcx, rax
$0113144B  mov           rax, rdx
$0113144E  xor           rdx, rdx
$01131451  div           rbx
$01131454  xchg          rcx, rax
$01131457  div           rbx
$0113145A  push          rdx
$0113145B  push          0 b#
$0113145D  push          rax
$0113145E  push          rcx
$0113145F  jmp           r8
$01131462  push          rsi
$01131463  mov           r9, rdx
$01131466  mov           r10, rax
$01131469  mov           rsi, rbx
$0113146C  mov           rdi, rcx
$0113146F  shr           rdx, 1 b#
$01131473  rcr           rax, 1 b#
$01131477  ror           rdi, 1 b#
$0113147B  rcr           rbx, 1 b#
$0113147F  bsr           rcx, rcx
$01131483  shrd          rbx, rdi, cl
$01131487  shrd          rax, rdx, cl
$0113148B  shr           rdx, cl
$0113148E  rol           rdi, 1 b#
$01131492  div           rbx
$01131495  mov           rbx, r10
$01131498  mov           rcx, rax
$0113149B  imul          rdi, rax
$0113149F  mul           rsi
$011314A2  add           rdx, rdi
$011314A5  sub           rbx, rax
$011314A8  mov           rax, rcx
$011314AB  mov           rcx, r9
$011314AE  sbb           rcx, rdx
$011314B1  sbb           rdx, rdx
$011314B4  and           rsi, rdx
$011314B7  and           rdi, rdx
$011314BA  add           rbx, rsi
$011314BD  adc           rcx, rdi
$011314C0  add           rax, rdx
$011314C3  xor           rdx, rdx
$011314C6  pop           rsi
$011314C7  push          rbx
$011314C8  push          rcx
$011314C9  push          rax
$011314CA  push          rdx
$011314CB  jmp           r8

-marcel

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#35101

Fromalbert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date2014-12-22 13:43 +0000
Message-ID<5498200e$0$6847$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#35097
In article <a026689d-c89f-46e8-b855-1f2c4ebf11b4@googlegroups.com>,
 <mhx@iae.nl> wrote:
>On Monday, December 22, 2014 4:56:33 AM UTC+1, mix wrote:
>[..]
>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
>[..]
>
>I made an error here ...
>
>FORTH> see ud/mod
>Flags:
>$01131438  pop           r8
>$0113143A  pop           rcx
>$0113143B  pop           rbx
>$0113143C  pop           rdx
>$0113143D  pop           rax
>$0113143E  test          rcx, rcx
>$01131441  jne           $01131462 offset SHORT
>$01131443  cmp           rdx, rbx
>$01131446  jb            $01131457 offset SHORT
>$01131448  mov           rcx, rax
>$0113144B  mov           rax, rdx
>$0113144E  xor           rdx, rdx
>$01131451  div           rbx
>$01131454  xchg          rcx, rax
>$01131457  div           rbx
>$0113145A  push          rdx
>$0113145B  push          0 b#
>$0113145D  push          rax
>$0113145E  push          rcx
>$0113145F  jmp           r8
>$01131462  push          rsi
>$01131463  mov           r9, rdx
>$01131466  mov           r10, rax
>$01131469  mov           rsi, rbx
>$0113146C  mov           rdi, rcx
>$0113146F  shr           rdx, 1 b#
>$01131473  rcr           rax, 1 b#
>$01131477  ror           rdi, 1 b#
>$0113147B  rcr           rbx, 1 b#
>$0113147F  bsr           rcx, rcx
>$01131483  shrd          rbx, rdi, cl
>$01131487  shrd          rax, rdx, cl
>$0113148B  shr           rdx, cl
>$0113148E  rol           rdi, 1 b#
>$01131492  div           rbx
>$01131495  mov           rbx, r10
>$01131498  mov           rcx, rax
>$0113149B  imul          rdi, rax
>$0113149F  mul           rsi
>$011314A2  add           rdx, rdi
>$011314A5  sub           rbx, rax
>$011314A8  mov           rax, rcx
>$011314AB  mov           rcx, r9
>$011314AE  sbb           rcx, rdx
>$011314B1  sbb           rdx, rdx
>$011314B4  and           rsi, rdx
>$011314B7  and           rdi, rdx
>$011314BA  add           rbx, rsi
>$011314BD  adc           rcx, rdi
>$011314C0  add           rax, rdx
>$011314C3  xor           rdx, rdx
>$011314C6  pop           rsi
>$011314C7  push          rbx
>$011314C8  push          rcx
>$011314C9  push          rax
>$011314CA  push          rdx
>$011314CB  jmp           r8

Although I agree with your point, you didn't prove your point,

This is unfair. This isn't assembler source, this is a
disassembly.  A reasonable assembler source would
have symbolic names indicating the purpose of registers,
named labels, and possibly some helpful macro's.

>
>-marcel

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#35120

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-23 02:57 +0000
Message-ID<m7alna$r81$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35101
Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> In article <a026689d-c89f-46e8-b855-1f2c4ebf11b4@googlegroups.com>,
>  <mhx@iae.nl> wrote:
>> On Monday, December 22, 2014 4:56:33 AM UTC+1, mix wrote:
>> [..]
>>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
>> [..]
>> 
>> I made an error here ...
>> 
>> FORTH> see ud/mod
>> Flags:
>> $01131438  pop           r8
>> $0113143A  pop           rcx
>> $0113143B  pop           rbx
>> $0113143C  pop           rdx
>> $0113143D  pop           rax
>> $0113143E  test          rcx, rcx
>> $01131441  jne           $01131462 offset SHORT
>> $01131443  cmp           rdx, rbx
>> $01131446  jb            $01131457 offset SHORT
>> $01131448  mov           rcx, rax
>> $0113144B  mov           rax, rdx
>> $0113144E  xor           rdx, rdx
>> $01131451  div           rbx
>> $01131454  xchg          rcx, rax
>> $01131457  div           rbx
>> $0113145A  push          rdx
>> $0113145B  push          0 b#
>> $0113145D  push          rax
>> $0113145E  push          rcx
>> $0113145F  jmp           r8
>> $01131462  push          rsi
>> $01131463  mov           r9, rdx
>> $01131466  mov           r10, rax
>> $01131469  mov           rsi, rbx
>> $0113146C  mov           rdi, rcx
>> $0113146F  shr           rdx, 1 b#
>> $01131473  rcr           rax, 1 b#
>> $01131477  ror           rdi, 1 b#
>> $0113147B  rcr           rbx, 1 b#
>> $0113147F  bsr           rcx, rcx
>> $01131483  shrd          rbx, rdi, cl
>> $01131487  shrd          rax, rdx, cl
>> $0113148B  shr           rdx, cl
>> $0113148E  rol           rdi, 1 b#
>> $01131492  div           rbx
>> $01131495  mov           rbx, r10
>> $01131498  mov           rcx, rax
>> $0113149B  imul          rdi, rax
>> $0113149F  mul           rsi
>> $011314A2  add           rdx, rdi
>> $011314A5  sub           rbx, rax
>> $011314A8  mov           rax, rcx
>> $011314AB  mov           rcx, r9
>> $011314AE  sbb           rcx, rdx
>> $011314B1  sbb           rdx, rdx
>> $011314B4  and           rsi, rdx
>> $011314B7  and           rdi, rdx
>> $011314BA  add           rbx, rsi
>> $011314BD  adc           rcx, rdi
>> $011314C0  add           rax, rdx
>> $011314C3  xor           rdx, rdx
>> $011314C6  pop           rsi
>> $011314C7  push          rbx
>> $011314C8  push          rcx
>> $011314C9  push          rax
>> $011314CA  push          rdx
>> $011314CB  jmp           r8
> 
> Although I agree with your point, you didn't prove your point,
> 
> This is unfair. This isn't assembler source, this is a
> disassembly.  A reasonable assembler source would
> have symbolic names indicating the purpose of registers,
> named labels, and possibly some helpful macro's.
> 
>> 
>> -marcel
> 
> Groetjes Albert

This is a very well know routine named _ulldiv written many years ago for
32-bit x86 assembly language. Marcel just changed 32-bit registers to
64-bit ones.

Such routines in assembly language are similar to AWK, sed, or Perl
one-liners: you don't even have to understand what's going on inside them
since you know which registers are used for input and output.

To find commented assembly source code, google "_ulldiv Norbert Juffa".

-- 
mix x

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#35122

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-23 03:38 +0000
Message-ID<m7ao3t$dd$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35120
mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
> Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> In article <a026689d-c89f-46e8-b855-1f2c4ebf11b4@googlegroups.com>,
>>  <mhx@iae.nl> wrote:
>>> On Monday, December 22, 2014 4:56:33 AM UTC+1, mix wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
>>> [..]
>>> 
>>> I made an error here ...
>>> 
>>> FORTH> see ud/mod
>>> Flags:
>>> $01131438  pop           r8
>>> $0113143A  pop           rcx
>>> $0113143B  pop           rbx
>>> $0113143C  pop           rdx
>>> $0113143D  pop           rax
>>> $0113143E  test          rcx, rcx
>>> $01131441  jne           $01131462 offset SHORT
>>> $01131443  cmp           rdx, rbx
>>> $01131446  jb            $01131457 offset SHORT
>>> $01131448  mov           rcx, rax
>>> $0113144B  mov           rax, rdx
>>> $0113144E  xor           rdx, rdx
>>> $01131451  div           rbx
>>> $01131454  xchg          rcx, rax
>>> $01131457  div           rbx
>>> $0113145A  push          rdx
>>> $0113145B  push          0 b#
>>> $0113145D  push          rax
>>> $0113145E  push          rcx
>>> $0113145F  jmp           r8
>>> $01131462  push          rsi
>>> $01131463  mov           r9, rdx
>>> $01131466  mov           r10, rax
>>> $01131469  mov           rsi, rbx
>>> $0113146C  mov           rdi, rcx
>>> $0113146F  shr           rdx, 1 b#
>>> $01131473  rcr           rax, 1 b#
>>> $01131477  ror           rdi, 1 b#
>>> $0113147B  rcr           rbx, 1 b#
>>> $0113147F  bsr           rcx, rcx
>>> $01131483  shrd          rbx, rdi, cl
>>> $01131487  shrd          rax, rdx, cl
>>> $0113148B  shr           rdx, cl
>>> $0113148E  rol           rdi, 1 b#
>>> $01131492  div           rbx
>>> $01131495  mov           rbx, r10
>>> $01131498  mov           rcx, rax
>>> $0113149B  imul          rdi, rax
>>> $0113149F  mul           rsi
>>> $011314A2  add           rdx, rdi
>>> $011314A5  sub           rbx, rax
>>> $011314A8  mov           rax, rcx
>>> $011314AB  mov           rcx, r9
>>> $011314AE  sbb           rcx, rdx
>>> $011314B1  sbb           rdx, rdx
>>> $011314B4  and           rsi, rdx
>>> $011314B7  and           rdi, rdx
>>> $011314BA  add           rbx, rsi
>>> $011314BD  adc           rcx, rdi
>>> $011314C0  add           rax, rdx
>>> $011314C3  xor           rdx, rdx
>>> $011314C6  pop           rsi
>>> $011314C7  push          rbx
>>> $011314C8  push          rcx
>>> $011314C9  push          rax
>>> $011314CA  push          rdx
>>> $011314CB  jmp           r8
>> 
>> Although I agree with your point, you didn't prove your point,
>> 
>> This is unfair. This isn't assembler source, this is a
>> disassembly.  A reasonable assembler source would
>> have symbolic names indicating the purpose of registers,
>> named labels, and possibly some helpful macro's.
>> 
>>> 
>>> -marcel
>> 
>> Groetjes Albert
> 
> This is a very well know routine named _ulldiv written many years ago for

"Very well known", of course. I apologize for being sloppy.

> 32-bit x86 assembly language. Marcel just changed 32-bit registers to
> 64-bit ones.
> 
> Such routines in assembly language are similar to AWK, sed, or Perl
> one-liners: you don't even have to understand what's going on inside them
> since you know which registers are used for input and output.
> 
> To find commented assembly source code, google "_ulldiv Norbert Juffa".

Actually, here is direct link:
http://www.df.lth.se/~john_e/gems/gem002a.html

-- 
mix x

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#35119

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-23 02:42 +0000
Message-ID<m7akqr$plh$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35097
<mhx@iae.nl> wrote:
> On Monday, December 22, 2014 4:56:33 AM UTC+1, mix wrote:
> [..]
>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
> [..]
> 
> I made an error here ...
> 
> FORTH> see ud/mod
> Flags:
> $01131438  pop           r8
> $0113143A  pop           rcx
> $0113143B  pop           rbx
> $0113143C  pop           rdx
> $0113143D  pop           rax
> $0113143E  test          rcx, rcx
> $01131441  jne           $01131462 offset SHORT
> $01131443  cmp           rdx, rbx
> $01131446  jb            $01131457 offset SHORT
> $01131448  mov           rcx, rax
> $0113144B  mov           rax, rdx
> $0113144E  xor           rdx, rdx
> $01131451  div           rbx
> $01131454  xchg          rcx, rax
> $01131457  div           rbx
> $0113145A  push          rdx
> $0113145B  push          0 b#
> $0113145D  push          rax
> $0113145E  push          rcx
> $0113145F  jmp           r8
> $01131462  push          rsi
> $01131463  mov           r9, rdx
> $01131466  mov           r10, rax
> $01131469  mov           rsi, rbx
> $0113146C  mov           rdi, rcx
> $0113146F  shr           rdx, 1 b#
> $01131473  rcr           rax, 1 b#
> $01131477  ror           rdi, 1 b#
> $0113147B  rcr           rbx, 1 b#
> $0113147F  bsr           rcx, rcx
> $01131483  shrd          rbx, rdi, cl
> $01131487  shrd          rax, rdx, cl
> $0113148B  shr           rdx, cl
> $0113148E  rol           rdi, 1 b#
> $01131492  div           rbx
> $01131495  mov           rbx, r10
> $01131498  mov           rcx, rax
> $0113149B  imul          rdi, rax
> $0113149F  mul           rsi
> $011314A2  add           rdx, rdi
> $011314A5  sub           rbx, rax
> $011314A8  mov           rax, rcx
> $011314AB  mov           rcx, r9
> $011314AE  sbb           rcx, rdx
> $011314B1  sbb           rdx, rdx
> $011314B4  and           rsi, rdx
> $011314B7  and           rdi, rdx
> $011314BA  add           rbx, rsi
> $011314BD  adc           rcx, rdi
> $011314C0  add           rax, rdx
> $011314C3  xor           rdx, rdx
> $011314C6  pop           rsi
> $011314C7  push          rbx
> $011314C8  push          rcx
> $011314C9  push          rax
> $011314CA  push          rdx
> $011314CB  jmp           r8
> 
> -marcel

Original _ulldiv routine was written by Norbert Juffa for 32-bit x86
assembly language. I don't see a mistake in your code, unless it's some
typo which I overlooked. I would rewrite this routine in pretty much the
same way you did, with couple of exceptions: I wouldn't use push and pop,
and I wouldn't use test instruction to check content of rcx.

# (d1 d2 -- d3 d4 )
word "ud/mod",6,NONE,ud_slash_mod,d_min,ud_slash_mod
			movq CELL*3(%rsp), %rax
			movq CELL*2(%rsp), %rdx
			movq CELL(%rsp), %rbx
			movq (%rsp), %rcx

			jrcxz ud_mod__no_big_divisor
ud_mod__big_divisor:
			movq %rdx, %r9
			movq %rax, %r10
			movq %rbx, %rsi
			movq %rcx, %rdi
			shrq $1, %rdx
			rcrq $1, %rax
			rorq $1, %rdi
			rcrq $1, %rbx
			bsrq %rcx, %rcx
			shrdq %cl, %rdi, %rbx
			shrdq %cl, %rdx, %rax
			shrq %cl, %rdx
			rolq $1, %rdi
			divq %rbx
			movq %r10, %rbx
			movq %rax, %rcx
			imulq %rax, %rdi
			mulq %rsi
			addq %rdi, %rdx
			subq %rax, %rdx
			movq %rcx, %rax
			movq %r9, %rcx
			sbbq %rdx, %rcx
			sbbq %rdx, %rdx
			andq %rdx, %rsi
			andq %rdx, %rdi
			addq %rsi, %rbx
			adcq %rdi, %rcx
			addq %rdx, %rax

			movq $0, (%rsp)
			movq %rax, CELL(%rsp)
			movq %rcx, CELL*2(%rsp)
			movq %rbx, CELL*3(%rsp)
			NEXT
ud_mod__no_big_divisor:
			cmpq %rbx, %rdx
			jb ud_mod__one_div
			movq %rax, %rcx
			movq %rdx, %rax
			xorq %rdx, %rdx
			divq %rbx
			xchgq %rcx, %rax
ud_mod__one_div:
			divq %rbx

			movq %rdx, CELL*3(%rsp)
			movq $0, CELL*2(%rsp)
			movq %rax, CELL(%rsp)
			movq %rcx, (%rsp)
			NEXT
drow

-- 
mix x

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#35099

From"Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com>
Date2014-12-22 11:42 +0000
Message-ID<m79034$2g2$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#35093
on 22/12/2014 03:56:35, mix wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to
>>>>>>> start with Assembler, then let students write high level
>>>>>>> language on it, and Forth would be the best choice here because
>>>>>>> of its simplicity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>>>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>>>>> frustrating.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>>>>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>>>>> exactly why is it crashing.
>>>>
>>>> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
>>>
>>> Disagree.
>>>
>>> Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?
>>
>> Sure; it's right up there, about twenty lines above this one.  I don't
>> quite know why you believe that a beginner knows exactly why their
>> assembly language program is crashing.  Assembly language isn't all
>> that easy to understand.  Debugging assembly language is difficult.
> 
> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
> 

As a commercial assembly programmer in IBM BAL for several years I
disagree. I started programming with assembler, and it was tough to learn
and tougher to debug.

Branch on indeX Low or Equal
BXLE Ri,Rn,D(B) 

D(B) is an address made from the sum of an offset & base register. The
offset is a maxiumum of signed 4K

where Rn is an even register, R(n+1) is paired odd
Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri <= R(n+1)

where Rn is an odd register
Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri <= Rn

Let me know how how you might use this instruction, and the value of the
odd register form in particular. Then we can talk about how to use it for
registers where i=n. And how to debug it. This might seem an artificial
instruction used once in a blue moon by sadistic programmers. It isn't.
Any IBM mainframe assembler programmer will have come across it and used
it, since it's an incredibly expressive instruction. 

Now add in a complete algorithm based on its use, and debugging requires
experience and knowledge not only of the machine code, the disassemby,
and the source (if you have it), but also of the person or compiler that
wrote the code too. It's not just the place where the code crashes
either, since often the problem starts a long, long way away (both in
time and space).

Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.

> --
> mix x
> 

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#35100

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2014-12-22 07:51 -0500
Message-ID<m7943u$g8v$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#35099
On 12/22/2014 6:42 AM, Alex McDonald wrote:
>
> Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
> experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
> assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
> programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.

You picked a very complex example of a rather complex machine.  But 
learning the assembly language of the 8 bit AVR processor or the 16 bit 
MSP430 would be *much* easier.

I won't argue that assembler is the right starting point for learning to 
program computers, but I think it should be taught early on next to a 
higher level language.  I remember the first time I learned to program 
in a chemistry class where the professor felt the computer was a 
mysterious thing and had no idea of the insides.  Then when I did learn 
how it all worked, it was a bit of a letdown... so primitive.  That in 
turn led me to programming in microcode and designing hardware for 
microcoded functions.  Can't get much more primitive than that.

Knowing that the hardware is running to do 3 billion things per second 
gives a perspective that I don't think is so easy to get when only doing 
high level programming.

-- 

Rick

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#35106

From"Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com>
Date2014-12-22 15:59 +0000
Message-ID<m79f4g$tbt$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#35100
on 22/12/2014 12:51:15, rickman wrote:
> On 12/22/2014 6:42 AM, Alex McDonald wrote:
>>
>> Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
>> experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
>> assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
>> programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.
> 
> You picked a very complex example of a rather complex machine.  But
> learning the assembly language of the 8 bit AVR processor or the 16
> bit MSP430 would be *much* easier.

Knuth had MIX; and it was horribly complex and a mistake due to its wierd
& whacky decimal number system, not to the architecture of the
instruction set. MMIX didn't fix it; it made it much worse. The books
(TAOCP) were successful despite that mistake, mainly due to Knuth's fine
analysis in pseudo-code or words.

> 
> I won't argue that assembler is the right starting point for learning
> to program computers, but I think it should be taught early on next to
> a higher level language. I remember the first time I learned to
> program in a chemistry class where the professor felt the computer was
> a mysterious thing and had no idea of the insides. Then when I did
> learn how it all worked, it was a bit of a letdown... so primitive.

That for me was the "aha!" moment. All that emergent power from simple
instructions, wrapped in a high level language. The same with chemistry;
with a handful of elements you can constuct two brains and a damn fine
argument on Usenet.

> That in turn led me to programming in microcode and designing hardware
> for microcoded functions.  Can't get much more primitive than that.

That's a desire for primitive, which is not what assembler is about, and
for students interested in programming is very definitely headed in the
wrong direction.

> 
> Knowing that the hardware is running to do 3 billion things per second
> gives a perspective that I don't think is so easy to get when only
> doing high level programming.
> 

High level languages get translated to code which is executed; or to some
intermediate that is interpreted. Or assembler gets translated to code in
a more 1 to 1 fashion. Speed is about clock frequency, and assembler vs
high level has nothing to do with that.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#35140

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2014-12-23 11:17 -0500
Message-ID<m7c4i2$u46$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#35106
On 12/22/2014 10:59 AM, Alex McDonald wrote:
> on 22/12/2014 12:51:15, rickman wrote:
>> On 12/22/2014 6:42 AM, Alex McDonald wrote:
>>>
>>> Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
>>> experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
>>> assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
>>> programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.
>>
>> You picked a very complex example of a rather complex machine.  But
>> learning the assembly language of the 8 bit AVR processor or the 16
>> bit MSP430 would be *much* easier.
>
> Knuth had MIX; and it was horribly complex and a mistake due to its wierd
> & whacky decimal number system, not to the architecture of the
> instruction set. MMIX didn't fix it; it made it much worse. The books
> (TAOCP) were successful despite that mistake, mainly due to Knuth's fine
> analysis in pseudo-code or words.
>
>>
>> I won't argue that assembler is the right starting point for learning
>> to program computers, but I think it should be taught early on next to
>> a higher level language. I remember the first time I learned to
>> program in a chemistry class where the professor felt the computer was
>> a mysterious thing and had no idea of the insides. Then when I did
>> learn how it all worked, it was a bit of a letdown... so primitive.
>
> That for me was the "aha!" moment. All that emergent power from simple
> instructions, wrapped in a high level language. The same with chemistry;
> with a handful of elements you can constuct two brains and a damn fine
> argument on Usenet.
>
>> That in turn led me to programming in microcode and designing hardware
>> for microcoded functions.  Can't get much more primitive than that.
>
> That's a desire for primitive, which is not what assembler is about, and
> for students interested in programming is very definitely headed in the
> wrong direction.
>
>>
>> Knowing that the hardware is running to do 3 billion things per second
>> gives a perspective that I don't think is so easy to get when only
>> doing high level programming.
>>
>
> High level languages get translated to code which is executed; or to some
> intermediate that is interpreted. Or assembler gets translated to code in
> a more 1 to 1 fashion. Speed is about clock frequency, and assembler vs
> high level has nothing to do with that.

I think you missed my point.  I see a computer accept a command and 
spend seconds doing something that should happen in the blink of an eye. 
  I ask the programmer what the computer is doing and they don't even 
understand the question.  Many people find it mind boggling that 
computers do what they do so quickly while I find it mind boggling that 
that computers are so slow.  That is because the programmer only sees 
high level constructs and has no idea how it is implemented. 
Programming in assembly gives him a better perspective to understand how 
his ideas are implemented.

-- 

Rick

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#35121

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-23 02:57 +0000
Message-ID<m7alnb$r81$2@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35099
"Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> wrote:
> on 22/12/2014 03:56:35, mix wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to
>>>>>>>> start with Assembler, then let students write high level
>>>>>>>> language on it, and Forth would be the best choice here because
>>>>>>>> of its simplicity.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>>>>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>>>>>> frustrating.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>>>>>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>>>>>> exactly why is it crashing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
>>>> 
>>>> Disagree.
>>>> 
>>>> Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?
>>> 
>>> Sure; it's right up there, about twenty lines above this one.  I don't
>>> quite know why you believe that a beginner knows exactly why their
>>> assembly language program is crashing.  Assembly language isn't all
>>> that easy to understand.  Debugging assembly language is difficult.
>> 
>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
>> 
> 
> As a commercial assembly programmer in IBM BAL for several years I
> disagree. I started programming with assembler, and it was tough to learn
> and tougher to debug.

That's not the best example of machine with easy-to-understand and
easy-to-debug assembly language.

> Branch on indeX Low or Equal
> BXLE Ri,Rn,D(B) 
> 
> D(B) is an address made from the sum of an offset & base register. The
> offset is a maxiumum of signed 4K
> 
> where Rn is an even register, R(n+1) is paired odd
> Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri <= R(n+1)
> 
> where Rn is an odd register
> Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri <= Rn
> 
> Let me know how how you might use this instruction, and the value of the
> odd register form in particular. Then we can talk about how to use it for
> registers where i=n. And how to debug it. This might seem an artificial
> instruction used once in a blue moon by sadistic programmers. It isn't.
> Any IBM mainframe assembler programmer will have come across it and used
> it, since it's an incredibly expressive instruction. 
> 
> Now add in a complete algorithm based on its use, and debugging requires
> experience and knowledge not only of the machine code, the disassemby,
> and the source (if you have it), but also of the person or compiler that
> wrote the code too. It's not just the place where the code crashes
> either, since often the problem starts a long, long way away (both in
> time and space).
> 
> Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
> experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
> assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
> programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.
> 
>> --
>> mix x
>> 


-- 
mix x

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#35126

Frommix <mix@test.net>
Date2014-12-23 06:09 +0000
Message-ID<m7b0v3$hk4$1@news.mixmin.net>
In reply to#35099
"Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> wrote:
> on 22/12/2014 03:56:35, mix wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to
>>>>>>>> start with Assembler, then let students write high level
>>>>>>>> language on it, and Forth would be the best choice here because
>>>>>>>> of its simplicity.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>>>>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>>>>>> frustrating.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>>>>>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>>>>>> exactly why is it crashing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
>>>> 
>>>> Disagree.
>>>> 
>>>> Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?
>>> 
>>> Sure; it's right up there, about twenty lines above this one.  I don't
>>> quite know why you believe that a beginner knows exactly why their
>>> assembly language program is crashing.  Assembly language isn't all
>>> that easy to understand.  Debugging assembly language is difficult.
>> 
>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
>> 
> 
> As a commercial assembly programmer in IBM BAL for several years I
> disagree. I started programming with assembler, and it was tough to learn
> and tougher to debug.
> 
> Branch on indeX Low or Equal
> BXLE Ri,Rn,D(B) 
> 
> D(B) is an address made from the sum of an offset & base register. The
> offset is a maxiumum of signed 4K
> 
> where Rn is an even register, R(n+1) is paired odd
> Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri <= R(n+1)
> 
> where Rn is an odd register
> Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri <= Rn
> 
> Let me know how how you might use this instruction, and the value of the
> odd register form in particular. Then we can talk about how to use it for
> registers where i=n. And how to debug it. This might seem an artificial
> instruction used once in a blue moon by sadistic programmers. It isn't.
> Any IBM mainframe assembler programmer will have come across it and used
> it, since it's an incredibly expressive instruction. 
> 
> Now add in a complete algorithm based on its use, and debugging requires
> experience and knowledge not only of the machine code, the disassemby,
> and the source (if you have it), but also of the person or compiler that
> wrote the code too. It's not just the place where the code crashes
> either, since often the problem starts a long, long way away (both in
> time and space).
> 
> Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
> experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
> assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
> programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.

OK, I've read your message and I still disagree.

I have access to IBM z mainframe, however, I've never tried to write
assembly code for it. Moreover, I'm not sure that particular mainframe have
same instruction set you used to use, and I'm not familiar with developer
tools provided there.

Can I see the opcode of this instruction? I would like to see if such
opcode can be generated and executed in run-time.

-- 
mix x

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#35133

From"Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com>
Date2014-12-23 12:44 +0000
Message-ID<m7bo39$b8t$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#35126
on 23/12/2014 06:09:38, mix wrote:
> "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>> on 22/12/2014 03:56:35, mix wrote:
>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> mix <mix@test.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think to really teach concepts of programming teachers have to
>>>>>>>>> start with Assembler, then let students write high level
>>>>>>>>> language on it, and Forth would be the best choice here because
>>>>>>>>> of its simplicity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think many students would be demotivated by this.  You have to give
>>>>>>>> people a way to get feedback and enjoy themselves; just crashing is
>>>>>>>> frustrating.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just crashing of program written by Intel or Microsoft is one thing, and
>>>>>>> just crashing of program written by you is another thing, because you know
>>>>>>> exactly why is it crashing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Err, no you don't: not at this stage of learning to program, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't you notice that I mention Assembler have to be learned first?
>>>>
>>>> Sure; it's right up there, about twenty lines above this one.  I don't
>>>> quite know why you believe that a beginner knows exactly why their
>>>> assembly language program is crashing.  Assembly language isn't all
>>>> that easy to understand.  Debugging assembly language is difficult.
>>>
>>> Assembly language is easy to understand and easy to debug.
>>>
>>
>> As a commercial assembly programmer in IBM BAL for several years I
>> disagree. I started programming with assembler, and it was tough to learn
>> and tougher to debug.
>>
>> Branch on indeX Low or Equal
>> BXLE Ri,Rn,D(B)
>>
>> D(B) is an address made from the sum of an offset & base register. The
>> offset is a maxiumum of signed 4K
>>
>> where Rn is an even register, R(n+1) is paired odd
>> Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri < R(n+1)
>>
>> where Rn is an odd register
>> Ri <-- Ri+Rn; branch to D2(B2) if Ri < Rn
>>
>> Let me know how how you might use this instruction, and the value of the
>> odd register form in particular. Then we can talk about how to use it for
>> registers where in. And how to debug it. This might seem an artificial
>> instruction used once in a blue moon by sadistic programmers. It isn't.
>> Any IBM mainframe assembler programmer will have come across it and used
>> it, since it's an incredibly expressive instruction.
>>
>> Now add in a complete algorithm based on its use, and debugging requires
>> experience and knowledge not only of the machine code, the disassemby,
>> and the source (if you have it), but also of the person or compiler that
>> wrote the code too. It's not just the place where the code crashes
>> either, since often the problem starts a long, long way away (both in
>> time and space).
>>
>> Writing assembler and debugging it is (for me at least) a holistic
>> experience. That experience doesn't come cheap. While teaching students
>> assembler is a fine and noble goal, and IMHO does make for a better
>> programmer in any language, it really isn't a great starting point.
> 
> OK, I've read your message and I still disagree.
> 
> I have access to IBM z mainframe, however, I've never tried to write
> assembly code for it. Moreover, I'm not sure that particular mainframe
> have same instruction set you used to use, and I'm not familiar with
> developer tools provided there.

The instruction set has been added to over the years, but hasn't changed
since 1964; all the way from S/360 through to Z series. BXLE (and all the
others) are still there and 50 year old programs will run with no to
little change. The toolset doc is here; 


http://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_1.12.0/com.ibm.zos.r12.asmk200/asmtug20.htm

> 
> Can I see the opcode of this instruction? I would like to see if such
> opcode can be generated and executed in run-time.

I'm not quite sure why that would help. The opcode mnemonic is BXLE, it's
an RS 4 byte (two registers and an unindexed base-displacement address)
and the assembler (HLASM) works the rest out. I'm sure you'll find the
hex encoding in a Principle of Operations manual. HLASM is very high
level, and there are macros like DO and ENDDO. An example might help.

        DO  FROM=(R1,1),TO=(R3,10),BY=(R2,2)
          Code for F
        ENDDO

which generates and then assembles

          LA    R1,1
          LA    R3,10
          LA    R2,2
#@LB2     DC    0H
* code for F       
#@LB3     DC    0H
          BXLE  R1,R2,#@LB2


The assembled code is what you debug. The DO/ENDDO aren't the source
that's assembled; they are macros that generate the source that's
assembled, and the debugger has no knowledge of those statements. HLASM
isn't a compiler.

Learning assembler as a first programming language makes it difficult to
grasp a whole host of important programming concepts, far less be able to
implement them. Although it may be instructive to understand what goes on
at a lower level, it's a poor first introduction to programming. 

I still contend that assembler, regardless of architecture, is much
harder to write well and debug effectively that high level programs.
 
> 
> --
> mix x
> 

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