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OT Windows USB inf files

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  OT Windows USB inf files Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-19 12:32 -0700
    Re: OT Windows USB inf files Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-05-20 06:29 +0100
      Re: OT Windows USB inf files Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-20 03:12 -0700
    Re: OT Windows USB inf files albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-20 07:48 +0000
      Re: OT Windows USB inf files Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-20 03:19 -0700
        Re: OT Windows USB inf files Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-20 08:19 -0700
          Re: OT Windows USB inf files Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-20 09:07 -0700
            Re: OT Windows USB inf files Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-20 09:10 -0700
    Re: OT Windows USB inf files stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-20 08:40 +0000
      Re: OT Windows USB inf files Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-20 03:10 -0700
        Re: OT Windows USB inf files Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-05-20 15:01 +0200
        Re: OT Windows USB inf files stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-20 13:07 +0000
    Re: OT Windows USB inf files "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-21 12:42 -1000

#30462 — OT Windows USB inf files

Hi,

There is a Forth connection in fact, as I am trying to get s USB CDC implementation to work in SwiftX on an MSP430...

The MSP430 gets registered as a USB device, because the inf file that I have installed as a driver contains the correct VID and PID, plus the the necessary incantation to run the built-in Windows system file usbser.sys.

But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that section from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter) it does not get enumerated as a serial port.

My questions are :
1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped by a zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port" give a lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable...
3. Is there some legal recourse against the big corporations that designed USB? Something along the lines of "publishing a protocol specification with intent to cause a breach of the peace"??? Or am I speaking Hungarian?

I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...

Best regards & TIA for any clues,
Howerd 
( Detective at Inventio Reverse Engineering Ltd )

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#30465

Howerd wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> There is a Forth connection in fact, as I am trying to get s USB CDC
> implementation to work in SwiftX on an MSP430...
> 
> The MSP430 gets registered as a USB device, because the inf file that I
> have installed as a driver contains the correct VID and PID, plus the the
> necessary incantation to run the built-in Windows system file usbser.sys.
> 
> But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that section
> from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter) it does
> not get enumerated as a serial port.
> 
> My questions are :
> 1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
> 2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped by a
> zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port" give a
> lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable... 3. Is
> there some legal recourse against the big corporations that designed USB?
> Something along the lines of "publishing a protocol specification with
> intent to cause a breach of the peace"??? Or am I speaking Hungarian?
> 
> I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...
> 
> Best regards & TIA for any clues,
> Howerd
> ( Detective at Inventio Reverse Engineering Ltd )


Hi Howerd,

  I guess that you have read the file at this link:-

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff547750%28v=vs.85%29.aspx>

Other than that I was unable to find anything more helpful in my quick look.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#30469

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 6:29:21 AM UTC+1, Paul E Bennett wrote:
> Howerd wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> 
> > 
> 
> > There is a Forth connection in fact, as I am trying to get s USB CDC
> 
> > implementation to work in SwiftX on an MSP430...
> 
> > 
> 
> > The MSP430 gets registered as a USB device, because the inf file that I
> 
> > have installed as a driver contains the correct VID and PID, plus the the
> 
> > necessary incantation to run the built-in Windows system file usbser.sys.
> 
> > 
> 
> > But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that section
> 
> > from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter) it does
> 
> > not get enumerated as a serial port.
> 
> > 
> 
> > My questions are :
> 
> > 1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
> 
> > 2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped by a
> 
> > zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port" give a
> 
> > lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable... 3. Is
> 
> > there some legal recourse against the big corporations that designed USB?
> 
> > Something along the lines of "publishing a protocol specification with
> 
> > intent to cause a breach of the peace"??? Or am I speaking Hungarian?
> 
> > 
> 
> > I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...
> 
> > 
> 
> > Best regards & TIA for any clues,
> 
> > Howerd
> 
> > ( Detective at Inventio Reverse Engineering Ltd )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Howerd,
> 
> 
> 
>   I guess that you have read the file at this link:-
> 
> 
> 
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff547750%28v=vs.85%29.aspx>
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that I was unable to find anything more helpful in my quick look.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ********************************************************************
> 
> Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
> 
> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
> 
> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
> 
> Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
> 
> Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
> 
> ********************************************************************

Hi Paul,

I found similar pages, but I think the link you gave is one or two levels higher in the Windows driver stack than the low-level inf file that I am looking for. I don't think the FTDI and Prolific go that far...

Best regards,
Howerd

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#30466

In article <6f76c7cd-ec52-4675-8c8e-47bc5cb38c7d@googlegroups.com>,
Howerd  <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>There is a Forth connection in fact, as I am trying to get s USB CDC
>implementation to work in SwiftX on an MSP430...
>
>The MSP430 gets registered as a USB device, because the inf file that I
>have installed as a driver contains the correct VID and PID, plus the
>the necessary incantation to run the built-in Windows system file
>usbser.sys.
>
>But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that
>section from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter)
>it does not get enumerated as a serial port.
>
>My questions are :
>1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
>2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped by a
>zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port" give
>a lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable...
>3. Is there some legal recourse against the big corporations that
>designed USB? Something along the lines of "publishing a protocol
>specification with intent to cause a breach of the peace"??? Or am I
>speaking Hungarian?
>
>I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...
>

I've similar experiences on Linux.
The symptom is that the device is detected, then later deleted.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a problem the MSP430 not quite
conforming to USB.
Reason :
USB is so complicated, conformance is near impossible.

>Best regards & TIA for any clues,
>Howerd
>( Detective at Inventio Reverse Engineering Ltd )

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#30470

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:48:00 AM UTC+1, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <6f76c7cd-ec52-4675-8c8e-47bc5cb38...@googlegroups.com>,
> 
> Howerd  <howe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> 
> >
> 
> >There is a Forth connection in fact, as I am trying to get s USB CDC
> 
> >implementation to work in SwiftX on an MSP430...
> 
> >
> 
> >The MSP430 gets registered as a USB device, because the inf file that I
> 
> >have installed as a driver contains the correct VID and PID, plus the
> 
> >the necessary incantation to run the built-in Windows system file
> 
> >usbser.sys.
> 
> >
> 
> >But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that
> 
> >section from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter)
> 
> >it does not get enumerated as a serial port.
> 
> >
> 
> >My questions are :
> 
> >1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
> 
> >2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped by a
> 
> >zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port" give
> 
> >a lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable...
> 
> >3. Is there some legal recourse against the big corporations that
> 
> >designed USB? Something along the lines of "publishing a protocol
> 
> >specification with intent to cause a breach of the peace"??? Or am I
> 
> >speaking Hungarian?
> 
> >
> 
> >I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> I've similar experiences on Linux.
> 
> The symptom is that the device is detected, then later deleted.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if there is a problem the MSP430 not quite
> 
> conforming to USB.
> 
> Reason :
> 
> USB is so complicated, conformance is near impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> >Best regards & TIA for any clues,
> 
> >Howerd
> 
> >( Detective at Inventio Reverse Engineering Ltd )
> 
> 
> 
> Groetjes Albert
> 
> -- 
> 
> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
> 
> Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
> 
> alb...@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Hi Albert,

Being detected than deleted was a problem that I saw if the USB device does not speak Windows clearly enough. Particularly the Device Configuration response.
Although my experience was with Windows, not Linux.

> > USB is so complicated, conformance is near impossible.
I am aiming for USB compatibility - enough to work. 
There is a whole USB certification process for companies that can afford it...

I have got HID to work, and CDC part way there.
One of the problems is that you cannot apply the Chuck Moore approach of limiting your code to the 0.1% of the USB spec that you actually need.
You seem to neeed about 98% of the USB spec just to get Windows to register it.
This is a sign of a well designed protocol - almost impossible to implement without paying USB.org large somes of money.
I say "almost" impossible, because the information is out there, but it is quite well obfuscated.

Best regards,
Howerd

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#30481

A rather low-tech but effective way is to run MODE from the commmand line, then pipe that into a text file. Then you can search the file for COMx:

MODE gives the following output:
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.

C:\Users\149939>mode

Status for device COM3:
-----------------------
    Baud:            1200
    Parity:          None
    Data Bits:       7
    Stop Bits:       1
    Timeout:         OFF
    XON/XOFF:        OFF
    CTS handshaking: OFF
    DSR handshaking: OFF
    DSR sensitivity: OFF
    DTR circuit:     ON
    RTS circuit:     ON


Status for device COM1:
-----------------------
    Baud:            1200
    Parity:          None
    Data Bits:       7
    Stop Bits:       1
    Timeout:         OFF
    XON/XOFF:        OFF
    CTS handshaking: OFF
    DSR handshaking: OFF
    DSR sensitivity: OFF
    DTR circuit:     ON
    RTS circuit:     ON


Status for device CON:
----------------------
    Lines:          300
    Columns:        80
    Keyboard rate:  31
    Keyboard delay: 1
    Code page:      850


C:\Users\149939>

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#30483

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 4:19:46 PM UTC+1, Mark Wills wrote:
> A rather low-tech but effective way is to run MODE from the commmand line, then pipe that into a text file. Then you can search the file for COMx:
> 
> 
> 
> MODE gives the following output:
> 
> Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
> 
> Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\149939>mode
> 
> 
> 
> Status for device COM3:
> 
> -----------------------
> 
>     Baud:            1200
> 
>     Parity:          None
> 
>     Data Bits:       7
> 
>     Stop Bits:       1
> 
>     Timeout:         OFF
> 
>     XON/XOFF:        OFF
> 
>     CTS handshaking: OFF
> 
>     DSR handshaking: OFF
> 
>     DSR sensitivity: OFF
> 
>     DTR circuit:     ON
> 
>     RTS circuit:     ON
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Status for device COM1:
> 
> -----------------------
> 
>     Baud:            1200
> 
>     Parity:          None
> 
>     Data Bits:       7
> 
>     Stop Bits:       1
> 
>     Timeout:         OFF
> 
>     XON/XOFF:        OFF
> 
>     CTS handshaking: OFF
> 
>     DSR handshaking: OFF
> 
>     DSR sensitivity: OFF
> 
>     DTR circuit:     ON
> 
>     RTS circuit:     ON
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Status for device CON:
> 
> ----------------------
> 
>     Lines:          300
> 
>     Columns:        80
> 
>     Keyboard rate:  31
> 
>     Keyboard delay: 1
> 
>     Code page:      850
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\149939>

Hi Mark,

Wow! This even works on Win7 64 bit in a cmd Window!!!

So, I can see my MSP430 CDC port, COM19, but I can't see its name.
This means that Windows has indeed registered it as a COM port, but Windows has decided not to let me know this fact by means of an Event.
But I can't be sure that it is _my_ COM port ...

Thanks for this :-) Any other ideas?

Best regards,
Howerd

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#30484

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 5:07:16 PM UTC+1, Howerd wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 4:19:46 PM UTC+1, Mark Wills wrote:
> 
> > A rather low-tech but effective way is to run MODE from the commmand line, then pipe that into a text file. Then you can search the file for COMx:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > MODE gives the following output:
> 
> > 
> 
> > Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7601]
> 
> > 
> 
> > Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > C:\Users\149939>mode
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Status for device COM3:
> 
> > 
> 
> > -----------------------
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Baud:            1200
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Parity:          None
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Data Bits:       7
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Stop Bits:       1
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Timeout:         OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     XON/XOFF:        OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     CTS handshaking: OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     DSR handshaking: OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     DSR sensitivity: OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     DTR circuit:     ON
> 
> > 
> 
> >     RTS circuit:     ON
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Status for device COM1:
> 
> > 
> 
> > -----------------------
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Baud:            1200
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Parity:          None
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Data Bits:       7
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Stop Bits:       1
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Timeout:         OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     XON/XOFF:        OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     CTS handshaking: OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     DSR handshaking: OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     DSR sensitivity: OFF
> 
> > 
> 
> >     DTR circuit:     ON
> 
> > 
> 
> >     RTS circuit:     ON
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Status for device CON:
> 
> > 
> 
> > ----------------------
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Lines:          300
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Columns:        80
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Keyboard rate:  31
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Keyboard delay: 1
> 
> > 
> 
> >     Code page:      850
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > C:\Users\149939>
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! This even works on Win7 64 bit in a cmd Window!!!
> 
> 
> 
> So, I can see my MSP430 CDC port, COM19, but I can't see its name.
> 
> This means that Windows has indeed registered it as a COM port, but Windows has decided not to let me know this fact by means of an Event.
> 
> But I can't be sure that it is _my_ COM port ...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this :-) Any other ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Howerd

This guy has the same problem with an Arduino :
http://www.mathworks.co.uk/matlabcentral/answers/110249-how-can-i-identify-com-port-devices-on-windows

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#30467

On Mon, 19 May 2014 12:32:42 -0700 (PDT), Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that section from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter) it does not get enumerated as a serial port.
>
>My questions are :
>1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?

Very few people do.

>2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped 
>by a zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port"
>give a lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable...

Look for Xiaofen - he gives the most accurate answers. I've forgotten
the second name.

>I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...

Do you have a protocol analyser such as a Beagle? If not, you are in
trouble. Most of what you need to know is in the traces.

We (MPE) have an INF file that works on all Windows versions from XP
onwards.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#30468

On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 9:40:08 AM UTC+1, Stephen Pelc wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2014 12:32:42 -0700 (PDT), Howerd <how....@yahoo.co.uk>
> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that section from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter) it does not get enumerated as a serial port.
> 
> >
> 
> >My questions are :
> 
> >1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
> 
> 
> 
> Very few people do.
> 
> 
> 
> >2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped 
> 
> >by a zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port"
> 
> >give a lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable...
> 
> 
> 
> Look for Xiaofen - he gives the most accurate answers. I've forgotten
> 
> the second name.
> 
> 
> 
> >I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a protocol analyser such as a Beagle? If not, you are in
> 
> trouble. Most of what you need to know is in the traces.
> 
> 
> 
> We (MPE) have an INF file that works on all Windows versions from XP
> 
> onwards.
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Stephen Pelc, stephen...@mpeforth.com
> 
> MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
> 
> 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
> 
> tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
> 
> web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

Hi Stephen,

Yes, I have an MQP USB analyser - without this there is indeed no hope.
But the problem I am having is at the Windows end...

It seems like I am not the only one :
https://code.google.com/p/arduino/issues/detail?id=934
Appears to be the same issue on an Arduino.

I Googled Xiofen USB driver, but with no success.

Is the MPE inf file proprietary?
BTW the USB CDC device gets recognised as a COM port, and assigned a number (COM19). I can even write to it, but Windows is not registering it as a "COM port".
The problem is that I would like to use my USBclarify program to tell me the COM port number, rather than ask the user to open Windows Device Manager and look. For this I would like to have a COMport event...
Maybe there is a workaround - perhaps I could get the COMport number from the USB device filename?

Best regards,
Howerd

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#30472

Howerd wrote:

> I Googled Xiofen USB driver, but with no success.

Xiaofan Chen is often seen on the libusb mailing list.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#30473

On Tue, 20 May 2014 03:10:14 -0700 (PDT), Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>I Googled Xiofen USB driver, but with no success.

Xiaofan Chen USB

>Is the MPE inf file proprietary?

The vast majority of .INF files are cobbled together from various
sources and ours is just the latest. You are welcome to discuss this.
Is your code proprietary?

>BTW the USB CDC device gets recognised as a COM port, and assigned a
>number (COM19). I can even write to it, but Windows is not registering
>it as a "COM port".

That sounds like a descriptor problem.

>The problem is that I would like to use my USBclarify program to tell
>me the COM port number, rather than ask the user to open Windows Device
>Manager and look. For this I would like to have a COMport event...
>Maybe there is a workaround - perhaps I could get the COMport number
>from the USB device filename?

You just (!!!) need to enumerate the COM ports. VFX Forth has a file
called EnumSerial.fth under copyright. If you really need to reinvent
wheels, start at:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1388871/how-do-i-get-a-list-of-available-serial-ports-in-win32

You won't enjoy it.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#30547

On 5/19/14 9:32 AM, Howerd wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is a Forth connection in fact, as I am trying to get s USB CDC implementation to work in SwiftX on an MSP430...
>
> The MSP430 gets registered as a USB device, because the inf file that I have installed as a driver contains the correct VID and PID, plus the the necessary incantation to run the built-in Windows system file usbser.sys.
>
> But, when I try to add the serenum.sys as a service (copying that section from the inf file from a Prolific Tech USB serial port adapter) it does not get enumerated as a serial port.
>
> My questions are :
> 1. does anyone understand the details of how this all hangs together?
> 2. are there any links out there in Googleland that are not swamped by a zillion similar sounding problems? "USB" "driver" and "serial port" give a lot of help about how to install a driver for your USB cable...
> 3. Is there some legal recourse against the big corporations that designed USB? Something along the lines of "publishing a protocol specification with intent to cause a breach of the peace"??? Or am I speaking Hungarian?
>
> I am running Win7 64 bit, but similar problems occur on Vista 32 bit...
>
> Best regards & TIA for any clues,
> Howerd
> ( Detective at Inventio Reverse Engineering Ltd )


Have you asked Leon all this? I think he has a lot of experience with 
this stuff.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

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