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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #29282 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700 |
| Last post | 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 374 — 32 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
Epic Fail Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-04 10:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-04 12:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail forthisit@gmail.com - 2014-04-04 11:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-04 22:09 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:44 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 09:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 10:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-05 15:25 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:29 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 12:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 15:54 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-09 16:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 13:00 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 21:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-09 15:17 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 00:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-09 22:42 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 00:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-10 16:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:35 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-10 17:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-10 21:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-11 23:10 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:18 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 06:23 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-12 20:14 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-12 19:21 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:25 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 16:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 09:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-12 10:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-12 13:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-12 10:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-12 19:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 00:25 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 10:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-14 02:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 17:59 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 02:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 18:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 14:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 21:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 12:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:02 -0700
Automatic scoping of locals (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 03:04 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 21:42 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-11 16:13 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 22:15 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-13 16:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-13 18:42 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-13 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-13 20:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 04:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-14 11:56 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 14:53 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 07:26 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-14 21:21 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-15 04:07 -0500
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-14 09:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-14 22:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 04:10 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 02:40 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-15 06:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:20 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-15 12:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 06:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-15 20:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-15 23:50 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-15 21:31 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-16 14:50 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2014-04-16 06:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-19 17:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 00:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-16 05:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-16 22:45 -0400
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-14 09:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-23 13:07 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-23 20:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-23 14:41 -1000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-24 17:10 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-24 15:14 -0400
@ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:40 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 06:13 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 15:26 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 09:03 -0700
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:45 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-25 11:15 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 17:22 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:38 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 11:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 14:35 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 09:59 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:14 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:30 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:05 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:39 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 18:07 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 13:00 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 11:18 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:12 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 03:52 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 03:09 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 09:24 -0500
Re: @ and optimization "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 08:36 -1000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 14:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 10:21 -0500
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-29 15:41 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-29 12:26 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:17 +0200
Re: @ and optimization stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:21 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:20 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:02 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 20:55 +0200
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:28 -0500
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:31 +0000
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-28 15:27 +0000
Re: @ and optimization albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-27 13:23 +0000
Re: @ and optimization hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:32 -0700
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 08:50 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-26 22:52 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 20:33 -0400
Re: @ and optimization "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-27 11:53 +0100
Re: @ and optimization "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 01:05 -0400
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 21:34 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-25 13:37 -0700
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-25 22:03 +0100
Re: @ and optimization anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 15:38 +0000
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:24 +0100
Re: @ and optimization Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 04:48 -0500
Re: @ and optimization Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:09 +0100
Re: @ and optimization (was: Epic Fail) hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-24 19:17 +0000
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-25 08:27 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-25 23:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-26 14:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-13 15:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 09:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 10:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 05:06 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 11:16 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-26 03:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 14:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:58 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:46 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-28 00:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-28 21:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:17 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 13:44 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 09:11 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 17:00 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-26 12:45 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-26 17:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-26 21:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-27 03:31 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-27 13:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-27 12:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-26 22:19 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-14 22:02 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 18:57 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-15 05:05 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-14 22:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-13 12:34 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-14 13:22 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-14 10:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-14 11:59 -0400
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-17 16:56 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Spam@ControlQ.com - 2014-04-17 15:16 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-17 23:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-18 04:38 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-18 09:17 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:44 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 17:06 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 11:41 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-18 16:55 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-18 19:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:52 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-18 12:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 14:36 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-20 08:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:35 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-21 10:51 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-21 19:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-22 20:47 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-19 11:34 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-19 16:05 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-20 12:38 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 11:42 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-20 12:11 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:23 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-20 11:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-21 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 04:58 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-22 17:05 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-20 17:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-20 19:47 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 05:03 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 11:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 08:28 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-22 15:02 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-22 13:23 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-04-22 19:19 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Todd Hughes <noemail@dontemailme.org> - 2014-04-10 11:24 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 06:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-10 15:50 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-10 11:02 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-10 22:31 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-11 03:55 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:08 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-10 19:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 17:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-11 17:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 18:59 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-11 19:11 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-11 12:05 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 22:03 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-11 20:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-11 21:44 -0400
Re: Epic Fail visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-04-11 14:00 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2014-04-12 01:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 16:12 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-04 23:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 17:40 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 16:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 06:37 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-09 01:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:16 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-04 17:41 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-05 02:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Hannu Vuolasaho <vuokkosetae@gmail.com> - 2014-04-04 17:46 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-04 21:59 -1000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-05 08:51 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-05 14:45 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-05 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-05 19:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 10:46 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 13:20 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-06 19:58 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 12:28 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-06 16:40 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-06 22:04 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 23:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-06 23:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:08 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:34 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:29 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:01 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 00:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:29 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:33 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 01:58 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 19:33 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 04:25 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 20:19 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:23 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 03:24 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 11:18 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:20 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 14:49 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 08:43 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-07 20:27 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 02:57 -0500
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:00 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 16:10 +0200
Re: Epic Fail m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-04-07 07:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:59 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 15:13 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 00:40 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-07 01:02 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:49 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 19:01 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:13 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 20:34 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 12:04 -0700
[OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 00:42 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:14 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:15 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:10 +0200
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:35 -0700
Re: [OT] Haskell code Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:17 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:48 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 15:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-04-07 11:26 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 05:21 -0500
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-07 17:54 +0100
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-07 12:14 -0500
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:49 +0000
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 09:37 +0000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 12:53 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 00:09 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-06 13:12 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-06 07:55 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-07 10:18 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 08:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 08:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-06 22:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-06 12:08 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 16:44 -0700
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-06 22:03 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Stefan Mauerhofer <smauerhofer@androsoft.ch> - 2014-04-07 01:29 -0700
locals in nested definitions (was: Epic Fail) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-07 16:57 +0000
Re: Epic Fail mhx@iae.nl - 2014-04-07 11:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:54 +0200
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 14:12 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-07 21:23 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-07 19:33 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Assad Ebrahim <assad.ebrahim@alum.swarthmore.edu> - 2014-04-08 09:07 +0100
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 12:35 +0100
Re: Epic Fail anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-04-08 16:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 16:33 -0400
Re: Epic Fail "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-04-08 23:41 +0100
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 22:47 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-08 10:43 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 07:22 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-08 10:12 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 08:58 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-08 08:02 -1000
Re: Epic Fail hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-08 23:07 -0700
Re: Epic Fail albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-04-08 10:21 +0000
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-08 15:32 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-08 17:46 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 01:06 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:06 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 02:56 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 18:17 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2014-04-09 03:24 +0200
Re: Epic Fail "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-04-09 02:22 -0400
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 17:07 +0300
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 03:48 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 07:17 +0300
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-07 22:52 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 03:53 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:24 -0700
Re: Epic Fail the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:45 -0700
Re: Epic Fail kerdezixe@gmail.com - 2014-04-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 11:21 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 20:46 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:27 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-04-29 23:13 +0200
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:04 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 00:54 -0700
Re: Epic Fail Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-04-30 03:08 -0500
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-30 02:30 -0700
Re: Epic Fail AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2014-04-29 20:48 +0200
Re: Epic Fail stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-04-29 19:09 +0000
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 09:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 12:43 -0700
Re: Epic Fail "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-04-29 11:23 -1000
Re: Epic Fail Laurent Laborde <kerdezixe@gmail.com> - 2014-04-29 22:52 -0700
Page 18 of 19 — ← Prev page 1 … 16 17 [18] 19 Next page →
| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 08:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x8urfdd98.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29446 |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: > You're rather assuming that the dictionary can be treated as a black > box with predictable high performance and reliability. If this is > assumed to be true, I agree that argument has some merit. Practical observation shows that the dictionaries built into the various scripting languages or in standard libraries like C++'s work perfectly well for most applications. There may be a rare special case where you need a custom one, but that's not a reason to avoid the standard one in the usual case.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 08:02 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <TrKdnaedE69cpNnOnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #29444 |
On 4/8/14 4:22 AM, Paul Rubin wrote: > "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes: >> I think it's more that in Forth it's so easy to build data structures >> that are exactly right for the particular application at hand that >> worrying about what pre-built structures you have and how to use them >> is just not worth the bother. > > That approach has some merit on old minicomputers and contemporary > microcontrollers, where every byte of program memory is precious, so > even for a general purpose data structure like a dictionary you want to > implement just the subset of features that the application needs. On > bigger computers you can just use a generic implementation and be done > with it. Why spend even 2 minutes implementing a dictionary, instead of > using a language that already supports them? > Well, a dictionary is one data structure that Forth certainly *does* have! Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | hughaguilar96@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 23:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ff96fc21-06e5-4f34-9b58-e0f1af1ff44b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29456 |
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:02:41 AM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > On 4/8/14 4:22 AM, Paul Rubin wrote: > > "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes: > >> I think it's more that in Forth it's so easy to build data structures > >> that are exactly right for the particular application at hand that > >> worrying about what pre-built structures you have and how to use them > >> is just not worth the bother. > > > That approach has some merit on old minicomputers and contemporary > > microcontrollers, where every byte of program memory is precious, so > > even for a general purpose data structure like a dictionary you want to > > implement just the subset of features that the application needs. On > > bigger computers you can just use a generic implementation and be done > > with it. Why spend even 2 minutes implementing a dictionary, instead of > > using a language that already supports them? > Well, a dictionary is one data structure that Forth certainly *does* have! I used the Forth dictionary as an association in my 65c02 source-level single-step debugger. The dictionary can be used, if nothing else is available --- but this is jerry-rigging. My ASSOCIATION.4TH is much better. I will work with any data type (that can be compared) as the key, not just strings. It allows an ordered traversal of a subset of the nodes. Nodes can be deleted. Entire trees can be cloned. There are a lot of cool features available! I stand by what I said --- you are incapable of implementing a general-purpose container comparable to my ASSOCIATION.4TH --- you are not a Forth programmer. BTW: SwiftForth uses a hash-table as its dictionary, but the table size is not a prime number. There is a comment in the source-code that says it would be a lot more efficient if it were a prime number --- apparently the programmer didn't have the authority to fix the problem, so he just left a comment there in the hopes that somebody would fix it in the future --- then it got released to your customers this way, and I read the comment. Not impressive!
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 10:21 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5343cdac$0$24945$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #29416 |
In article <7xwqf04ffx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: <SNIP> >I wonder if the failure rate for Forth projects is any different. > >There's an old Yosefk post that may explain some of what goes on with >Forth: > > http://www.yosefk.com/blog/low-level-is-easy.html > >It says (among other things) low level approaches can be more tedious, >but have fewer dependencies and are more robust against going wrong >because somebody else's stuff broke, and tends to be more solid because >everyone else's stuff will break if the low level stuff fails. This sums up the ciforth philosophy rather well. Groetjes Albert -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 15:32 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <li0tpu$9tn$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #29416 |
Paul Rubin wrote: >> Quite often, run-of-the-mill managers are scared by people who do >> their stuff in Forth, and then try to replace their work with >> run-of-the-mill people and tools. The typical outcome is a complete >> failure - many software projects are failures, anyways > > I wonder if the failure rate for Forth projects is any different. If you use run-of-the-mill people, you will have a high failure rate, too. Take the fuel gauge project at Dialog as example: I left, and while the customer was quite happy as long as I was there, the project became a failure after my departure. I knew why they did buy our team, because they did not only lack the knowledge, they also were completely unable to keep the knowledgable people. As Elizabeth said, the root cause of failures is usually mismanagement. You need good management to make a project a success, and one key management skill is to get good people to work on the project. Bad managers often say "good people are very difficult to manage", because yelling at them doesn't work. > There's an old Yosefk post that may explain some of what goes on with > Forth: > > http://www.yosefk.com/blog/low-level-is-easy.html > > It says (among other things) low level approaches can be more tedious, > but have fewer dependencies and are more robust against going wrong > because somebody else's stuff broke, and tends to be more solid because > everyone else's stuff will break if the low level stuff fails. Yes, the reason why I like to do such a lot of things myself is that building on other people's code means the stuff is broken. The low-level stuff usually works, it is the middle layer which is overly complicated and therefore bug-ridden. However, the conclusion of this article is that the low-level stuff gets enough pressure to work, while the high-level stuff doesn't. Why? I don't think Microsoft's people liked the fact that some component did misdraw under certain conditions; they for sure have put up pressure to fix that stuff. They just couldn't fix it, because it was too complex, and they (typical Microsoft-mentality) needed the backward compatibility. So throwing it away and redoing from scratch wasn't possible. In the meantime, they are way more into throwing things away and redoing them from scratch, and while their software quality improves, their customers really don't like it. The article also explains why so many morons pick up high-level stuff: It looks easy. It isn't. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 17:46 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <op.xd0pfeud6zenlw@localhost> |
| In reply to | #29442 |
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 09:32:45 -0400, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > Yes, the reason why I like to do such a lot of things myself is > that building on other people's code means the stuff is broken. How do you ensure that your replacement code isn't just as broken as you perceive theirs to be? I.e., what's to prevent others from concluding the same thing as you when they look at your code? ... > However, the conclusion of this article is that the low-level stuff > gets enough pressure to work, while the high-level stuff doesn't. Bugs can exist in code for a long, long time before being noticed. The more thoroughly tested the code, the less likely they will exist. The more frequently the code is used, the more likely they will be found. Sometimes they're critical, sometimes they're not. Does it make sense to invest time and money fixing trivial bugs? Many business managers simply decide it's not worth the cost to fix. Rod Pemberton
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 01:06 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <li1vcu$kjq$2@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29442 |
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 15:32:45 +0200 Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > > The article also explains why so many morons pick up high-level > stuff: It looks easy. It isn't. > Problem is that there are people who make memory leaks in Java. It is far easier to pick easy language and make so so workable code. C programmers can also program Javascript and PHP but not the opposite. Low level stuff is not easy and requires much more code and knowledge. Nothing is easy but it is easier to learn library than to write it. Once I asked one guy who advocated ADA who will write low level stuff if I can't write it in ADA. He replied that those things would be written by experts in *assembler* ;) -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 18:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xlhvfgvl1.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29465 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > Once I asked one guy who advocated ADA who will write > low level stuff if I can't write it in ADA. > He replied that those things would be written by experts > in *assembler* ;) I don't understand what you're getting at here. Ada lets you do about the same stuff as C, though less conveniently. If you have to muck with machine addresses you can do it through a subroutine call interface rather than with pointers directly in the language. If you want something like coroutines, you're stuck calling assembler, just like if you were writing the higher levels in C.
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 02:56 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <li25rb$2tq$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29469 |
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:06:34 -0700 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > > Once I asked one guy who advocated ADA who will write > > low level stuff if I can't write it in ADA. > > He replied that those things would be written by experts > > in *assembler* ;) > > I don't understand what you're getting at here. Ada lets you do about > the same stuff as C, though less conveniently. Oh, no, I didn't want to criticize ADA. Guy advocated ADA as safe language opposite to C++, which is unsafe. So I questioned who will write unsafe(low level) code. Guy didn't want to admit that you can write unsafe code in ADA, and didn't want to say C - but assembler, it was funny ;) If you have to muck > with machine addresses you can do it through a subroutine call > interface rather than with pointers directly in the language. If you > want something like coroutines, you're stuck calling assembler, just > like if you were writing the higher levels in C. -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 18:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x8urfgv3k.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #29471 |
Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > Oh, no, I didn't want to criticize ADA. Guy advocated ADA as safe > language opposite to C++, which is unsafe. So I questioned who will > write unsafe(low level) code. Guy didn't want to admit that you can > write unsafe code in ADA, and didn't want to say C - but assembler, it > was funny ;) It would be pretty weird to write the low level code in C and call it from Ada. C has pointers but it doesn't have any of the stuff you usually want assembler for, like machine intrinsics.
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| From | Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 03:24 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <li27fr$2tq$4@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #29473 |
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:17:03 -0700 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > > Oh, no, I didn't want to criticize ADA. Guy advocated ADA as safe > > language opposite to C++, which is unsafe. So I questioned who will > > write unsafe(low level) code. Guy didn't want to admit that you can > > write unsafe code in ADA, and didn't want to say C - but assembler, > > it was funny ;) > > It would be pretty weird to write the low level code in C and call it > from Ada. C has pointers but it doesn't have any of the stuff you > usually want assembler for, like machine intrinsics. Heh, I'm used to write low level code in C. For example ,back in DOS days I wrote Unisys T27 emulator completely in C. It configured UART and interrupt handler was in C. Though I must admit ,know, on Linux, I prefer assembler ;) -- Click OK to continue...
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| From | "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 02:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <op.xd1da4rm6zenlw@localhost> |
| In reply to | #29473 |
On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:17:03 -0400, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > C has pointers but it doesn't have any of the stuff you > usually want assembler for, like machine intrinsics. Que? 1) Assembly doesn't need machine intrinsics. High-level languages do. 2) Major C compilers support inlined assembly. This usually suffices. 3) In general, there is very little that can't be done in C. Rod Pemberton
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| From | Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 17:07 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <li3k6t$r7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29483 |
On 04/09/2014 09:22 AM, Rod Pemberton wrote: > On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 21:17:03 -0400, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> > wrote: > >> C has pointers but it doesn't have any of the stuff you >> usually want assembler for, like machine intrinsics. > > Que? > > 1) Assembly doesn't need machine intrinsics. High-level languages do. > 2) Major C compilers support inlined assembly. This usually suffices. > 3) In general, there is very little that can't be done in C. GCC does have machine intrinsics, specifically: atomic swap-and-compare etc., which are extremely useful for spinlocks and so forth. And as you point out, most compilers have (and have had for many, many years) inline assembly functionality. I wish GCC's wasn't so peculiar, but that's life. Indeed, there is little which can't be done in C; but there's also little that can't be done in any sufficiently low-level language, if you have the time and inclination.
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| From | the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-09 03:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1ed6069c-cf17-4fd9-8ea1-eb1fb638bf4a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29469 |
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 6:06:34 PM UTC-7, Paul Rubin wrote: > Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> writes: > > > Once I asked one guy who advocated ADA who will write > > > low level stuff if I can't write it in ADA. > > > He replied that those things would be written by experts > > > in *assembler* ;) > > > > I don't understand what you're getting at here. Ada lets you do about > > the same stuff as C, though less conveniently. If you have to muck with > > machine addresses you can do it through a subroutine call interface > > rather than with pointers directly in the language. If you want > > something like coroutines, you're stuck calling assembler, just like if > > you were writing the higher levels in C. I thought that tasking took care of co routines?
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| From | Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 07:17 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <lht8t0$eql$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #29331 |
On 04/06/2014 11:12 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Example: When I started Gforth on Android, I used the NativeActivity. ... > Resulting decision: Throw it away and do it myself. Interesting; I went through almost the identical process with 8th on Android, but decided I didn't want to rework the NativeActivity (instead I spawn the interpreter thread from an Application object).
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 22:52 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lhv369$b0f$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #29355 |
Ron Aaron wrote: > > > On 04/06/2014 11:12 PM, Bernd Paysan wrote: > >> Example: When I started Gforth on Android, I used the NativeActivity. > ... >> Resulting decision: Throw it away and do it myself. > > Interesting; I went through almost the identical process with 8th on > Android, but decided I didn't want to rework the NativeActivity (instead > I spawn the interpreter thread from an Application object). Yes, that's very similar to the way I do it now. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-07 03:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <1eb3895c-6465-412b-8721-7dcab4737240@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
On Friday, 4 April 2014 18:26:04 UTC+1, Jason Damisch wrote: > Why did Forth fail so badly? It didn't. It was very popular for a while, then it faded away. Like the Osmands. > > > > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind boggling. Forth never had the backing behind it that Java, and C before it, did. > Would you consider the position of Greg or Chuck at this point in time a win or a fail? As far as they know, they have both made a lot of money over the years with Forth. That sounds like success to me! > > > > The Wikipedia article on Java states that in 2014 Java is the most popular programming language with 9 million developers. How many developers do you think actually make money programming in Forth? Probably about 9! > ??? Ah! So when you talk about fail, you mean fail to be popular? Ok, I agree. Forth is not popular. But it is a good language, as we all know. > How bad did we fail? Well, out of the Billions and Billions of cellphones which have ever been produced, not a single one has been programmed in Forth or uses Forth as an operating system! Billions of them do contain Forth software though. There was/is a system that was developed for the network operators. It runs underneath, or at least, at the same level as the operating system itself (and is therefore very difficult to detect) and periodically sends info back to the network operators. It is written in Forth. It caused quite a lot of controversy as it was seen as spyware. I can't remember the name of it now, but it has been mentioned here before. > > > It's not like Java is the idea language for everything. It is C++ on top of a virtual machine. I probably would not recommend it for resource constrained embedded systems. Though bear in mind, there is a specific edition of Java for embedded systems. However, like you, I couldn't recommend it - Java is simply too deeply abstracted to afford any degree of confidence in its reliability. You can't see what it's doing, unlike Forth or C.
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| From | the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 16:24 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5be12de6-a5c4-41fd-baf5-95e8001d2504@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
On Friday, April 4, 2014 10:26:04 AM UTC-7, Jason Damisch wrote: > Why did Forth fail so badly? > > > > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite usable and is *extremely* flexible. > > > > It goes like this. If you program in Java, you can't fail. If you program in Forth, you can't win. It does not matter how good or bad you are. Would you consider the position of Greg or Chuck at this point in time a win or a fail? > > > > The Wikipedia article on Java states that in 2014 Java is the most popular programming language with 9 million developers. How many developers do you think actually make money programming in Forth? Probably about 9! > > > > I'm not trying to Flame or Troll. I'd just like to hear a really good explanation of this. It makes me upset. > > > > How bad did we fail? Well, out of the Billions and Billions of cellphones which have ever been produced, not a single one has been programmed in Forth or uses Forth as an operating system! 99.99% of them are programmed in Java? Why? I mean I had a $15 cell phone. The hardware is probably more powerful than my old Atari ST. It has a faster processor and more RAM. There are only about 5 games for it, and they are all programmed in Java. Truth be known, these games are so slow as to be nearly unplayable. It would be undoable to put Llamatron on the thing, not because of the small screen size, but because it just couldn't use a Java library to push around a sufficient number of sprites very well. I know that all of you I.T. people in here are just going to say buy a more expensive phone, but that's not my point. > > > > It's not like Java is the idea language for everything. It is C++ on top of a virtual machine. I probably would not recommend it for resource constrained embedded systems. But just like nobody every go fired for buying IBM, nobody ever go fired for using Java. I mean even if I started a project trying to write an embedded system on a resources constrained device, and I chose to do it in Java, no matter what kind of train wreck I produced, I would probably not be fired, but would be hired for the next job, even possibly to reproduce the same results. > > > > How did we lose so badly? > > > > What is more religious? Using Forth or trying to slam the square peg of the most popular single stack everything is a function everything is an object programming language into the round hole of every computer problem in creation with a jack hammer? > > > > Jason because banks caclulate ROI sun and oracel were public more money can be made selling SHIT made in java than good things done in forth progarmmers are miscellaneous slaves for preident of big corp who banks hire to run method of collecting money from population of world CEO gets money to run this machien called corp from banker if programmers ever used something powerful they might derail the machine by making other alternatives its about making money forth and better tek are also fought with interoperability I mean oracle and microsoft have been obsolete for over 10 years freebsd or linux and most any free programmign language and psotgresql or whatever combo can replace paying for oracle or microsoft anytime, and do better job sicne license money is spent on more hardware and network governmetn get paid off little forth corps are centralized enuf to amass payoffs or be seen as good machien for bank or hired ceo slave master
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| From | the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-08 16:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5d1984ba-f554-4124-b36b-2091b8f86355@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
On Friday, April 4, 2014 10:26:04 AM UTC-7, Jason Damisch wrote: > Why did Forth fail so badly? > > > > I mean the win of Java VS the fail of Forth is so absolute as to be mind boggling. I'd like to hear a real answer, and not that "Forth Sucks" because I think that Forth is a darn good mousetrap. It is still quite usable and is *extremely* flexible. > > > > It goes like this. If you program in Java, you can't fail. If you program in Forth, you can't win. It does not matter how good or bad you are. Would you consider the position of Greg or Chuck at this point in time a win or a fail? > > > > The Wikipedia article on Java states that in 2014 Java is the most popular programming language with 9 million developers. How many developers do you think actually make money programming in Forth? Probably about 9! > > > > I'm not trying to Flame or Troll. I'd just like to hear a really good explanation of this. It makes me upset. > > > > How bad did we fail? Well, out of the Billions and Billions of cellphones which have ever been produced, not a single one has been programmed in Forth or uses Forth as an operating system! 99.99% of them are programmed in Java? Why? I mean I had a $15 cell phone. The hardware is probably more powerful than my old Atari ST. It has a faster processor and more RAM. There are only about 5 games for it, and they are all programmed in Java. Truth be known, these games are so slow as to be nearly unplayable. It would be undoable to put Llamatron on the thing, not because of the small screen size, but because it just couldn't use a Java library to push around a sufficient number of sprites very well. I know that all of you I.T. people in here are just going to say buy a more expensive phone, but that's not my point. > > > > It's not like Java is the idea language for everything. It is C++ on top of a virtual machine. I probably would not recommend it for resource constrained embedded systems. But just like nobody every go fired for buying IBM, nobody ever go fired for using Java. I mean even if I started a project trying to write an embedded system on a resources constrained device, and I chose to do it in Java, no matter what kind of train wreck I produced, I would probably not be fired, but would be hired for the next job, even possibly to reproduce the same results. > > > > How did we lose so badly? > > > > What is more religious? Using Forth or trying to slam the square peg of the most popular single stack everything is a function everything is an object programming language into the round hole of every computer problem in creation with a jack hammer? > > > > Jason you could also say client server computing java was mostly for web client server and at the time the net explosion made it something people could use forth even now seems to have no web server or appserver even as sad as java tomcat how do you even do client server in forth? jeff fox wrote about multi cpu forth lina allowing some kind of awesome client server, but would that work on a website? since you dont have access to someones pc ram I dont think? maybe u do through browser?? maybe there could be a forth firefox plugin that would be even more powerful cient server than javascript and current node.js that seem to be big now
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| From | kerdezixe@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-04-29 11:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a2a357c6-7a19-4fd3-961a-08aa5c2e8b0b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #29282 |
Friendly greetings !
Forth isn't dead yet, i'm learning Forth, here is why, what's needed :
I'm not really happy with the dozens of language i learned.
I created and trashed tons of unfinished language.
Usually using ruby, java, C, or jruby.
I like Erlang, Lisp, functional languages in general.
I decided to learn the "JVM bytecode" using Jasmin : http://jasmin.sourceforge.net/
OMG the JVM is Stack-based \o/
It's a lot of fun and really intuitive. Kinda annoying to write because it's very very hard to debug.
I know forth by name since a long time and i had to write tiny bit of forth-ish when programming Sun NVRAM. But know i decided to give it a go.
Of course i ran into some troubles :
- the compilers are OLD!
- Documentation is OLD! ("Property of US Army" documentation that explain how to load forth code using punch card ? huh... ok...)
- Company supporting forth are dead or dying.
Did you notice that the LISP-familly is back on track ? It's hype ! Every cool kids want to learn Clojure. Clojure and Scala are replacing Java code. I see JRuby code in production too, mixed with java, clojure, scala, you-name-it.
I spent ~3h looking for a "Forth on JVM", even experimental code on github would do the trick.
Couldn't find any... Ok then.. gforth ... *sigh*
I'm a 36yo sysadmin & DBA, not a "pro" coder. Today we get a server with 32GB of RAM, 4TB if disk and 4(*2) cores for ~40 EURO/month. I don't care if a JVM-Forth use a few more MB of ram than it should because of the JVM.
My problem, however, is that it doesn't exist at all.
Peoples want a .jar that works, nothing else. JVM-Forth, Scala, Java or Clojure ? who care ?
And Clojure is a great demonstration.
I asked if i could do some Clojure at work : "You know it ? Awesome ! Do it !"
Now if i tell them i want to do some Forth... well, i won't even ask. I can't even do C (even if we have more people that know C compared to Clojure).
But as long as it's JVM-based : sure, have fun !
So now you know what to do. :)
*hugs*
Ker2x
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