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Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost

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  Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost mike73900@gmail.com - 2013-12-19 01:26 -0800
    Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-12-19 11:37 +0100
      Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 02:50 -0800
        Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-20 19:49 +1100
      Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost mike73900@gmail.com - 2013-12-19 08:48 -0800
        Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-12-20 11:31 +0100
      Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:36 -0800
    Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 10:49 +0000
    Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost C G Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2013-12-19 17:15 -0500
    Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-12-20 02:57 -0500
    Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-12-24 08:37 +0000
      Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-24 17:24 +0000
      Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost jg <josefg@gmail.com> - 2014-01-16 22:44 -0800
        Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost jg <josefg@gmail.com> - 2014-01-21 20:42 -0800
          Re: Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-01-22 10:39 +0000

#27349 — Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost

The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group, organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put it online, lest it be lost to obscurity. 

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#27351

This book is available in my university library. 
Thinking Forth got a first-class digitalisation, but a simple scan could be done. 
Is anyone else interested in it ?

Matthias

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#27354

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:37:21 AM UTC, Matthias Koch wrote:
> This book is available in my university library. 
> 
> Thinking Forth got a first-class digitalisation, but a simple scan could be done. 
> 
> Is anyone else interested in it ?
> 
> 
> 
> Matthias

I'd be interested to see it.

Mark

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#27375

Mark Wills wrote:
> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:37:21 AM UTC, Matthias Koch wrote:
> > This book is available in my university library.
> >
> > Thinking Forth got a first-class digitalisation, but a simple scan could be done.
> >
> > Is anyone else interested in it ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Matthias
>
> I'd be interested to see it.

Readers would also need to understand HS-Forth which, from the snippets of
code I've seen, is not exactly intuitive.  Good luck finding info on HS-Forth.

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#27360

On Thursday, 19 December 2013 10:37:21 UTC, Matthias Koch  wrote:
> This book is available in my university library. 
> 
> Thinking Forth got a first-class digitalisation, but a simple scan could be done. 
> 
> Is anyone else interested in it ?
> 
> 
> 
> Matthias

Yes please. A simple scan should do. It doesn't need a "first-class digitalisation" as was done with Thinking Forth. 

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#27379

> Yes please. A simple scan should do. It doesn't need a "first-class digitalisation" as was done with Thinking Forth. 

Ok. I fetch the book in January and do the scan if nobody discovers a digital copy meanwhile.

Merry Christmas !
Matthias

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#27387

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:37:21 AM UTC-8, Matthias Koch wrote:
> This book is available in my university library. 
> 
> Thinking Forth got a first-class digitalisation, but a simple scan could be done. 
> 
> Is anyone else interested in it ?
> 
> 
> 
> Matthias

a noble cause

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#27353

mike73900@gmail.com wrote:

> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
> organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do
> to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put
> it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.

I have, today, sent an email to Graeme Dunbar who was, according to the web-
site, the Fig-UK librarian. The book is in the list there but as the group 
as an entity has been a bit defunct for a number of years I am unsure of the 
state-of play with the collection.

There are probably other books in the list that should be receiving the same 
treatment.

<http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=forth;id=46;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.figuk.plus.com%2Findex.htm>


-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#27366

mike73900@gmail.com mike73900@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
> organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and
> do to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and
> put it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.

I own a copy of Scientific Forth, which I would be willing to make 
available for scanning, but I am unsure about copyright restrictions.
(I don't own a scanner.)
(I could leave my copy to the Forth Scientific Library in my will,
so a future maintainer could deal with it appropriately.)  ;-)

regards   cgm

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#27374

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 04:26:23 -0500, <mike73900@gmail.com> wrote:

> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on  
> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem.

"Finite State Machines in Forth" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/fsm.html

"A Beginner's Guide to Forth" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm

"Programs, Programs, Programs" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/programs.htm

"Developing Assembly Language Programs in Forth" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/asmcise2.pdf

> Please, everyone in this group, organize an effort to locate a copy
> of his book, Scientific Forth, and do to it what was previously done
> to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put it online, lest it be lost
> to obscurity.

I'd suspect his family or book publisher is likely to own copyrights.

Some years ago, he posted a link to his webpages on FSMs in Forth
to comp.lang.c.  I have no idea why...  Anyway, I posted a C port
of one of his Forth FSMs, which is here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.c/WjqgM4p0LrU/XA-YJvYsqS8J


Rod Pemberton

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#27412

mike73900@gmail.com wrote:

> 
> 
> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
> organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do
> to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put
> it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.

I have received an email from Josef Gabriel who asked me to place this on 
here.

> Hi Paul,
> 
> I have tried to post to the "Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific
> Forth from being lost," but google has rejected each post.
> 
> I bought a "Scientific Forth" copy to scan. I am currently working with
> Paper Upgrade Project, http://www.paperupgrade.org/, to scan the book. 
This
> should be completed the third week of January. This will give the project 
a
> good base from which to start.
> 
> In regards to rights, I have tried contacting the listed book publisher,
> Mechum Banks Publishing, with no luck. I think I have located Julian's
> widow, Harriet. I think we may get a better reception from her if someone
> who has contacted her before now contacts her. I'd would like to 
informally
> nominate C.G. Montgomery because cgm worked with Harriet to secure 
Julian's
> archive at Taygeta.
> 
> Please pass this message on to clf. Please inform me if you chose not to
> pass on the message.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Josef Gabriel (jg)
-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#27434

In article <bhsvdgFs1p1U1@mid.individual.net>,
Paul E Bennett  <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> wrote:
>mike73900@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
>> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
>> organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do
>> to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put
>> it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.
>
<SNIP>

>>
>> In regards to rights, I have tried contacting the listed book publisher,
>> Mechum Banks Publishing, with no luck. I think I have located Julian's
>> widow, Harriet. I think we may get a better reception from her if someone
>> who has contacted her before now contacts her. I'd would like to
>informally
>> nominate C.G. Montgomery because cgm worked with Harriet to secure
>Julian's
>> archive at Taygeta.

The situation that it is impossible to contact a copyright holder is common.
I've been in a situation where it was even impossible to establish who
owned the rights to a program. (Fortunately GNU had an alternative.)
Legislation that protects those who are in good faith trying to preserve
cultural and intellectual heritage in situations where the owner of
the copyright is not exploiting the copyright is overdue.
With the Draconian laws we have now it is possible to sue for
scanning the book without even the intent to publish it before the
copyright is expired. (I don't expect Julian Noble's widow to do that,
of course.)

If we want to preserve heritage, a massive effort is needed, far beyond
single books. :-(
But by all means, keep up the good work. Let's "kill the enemy one by
one".

<SNIP>

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#27920

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 12:37:03 AM UTC-8, Paul E Bennett wrote:
> mike73900 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
> 
> > implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
> 
> > organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do
> 
> > to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put
> 
> > it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.
> 
> 
> 
> I have received an email from Josef Gabriel who asked me to place this on 
> 
> here.
> 
> 
> 
> > Hi Paul,
> 
> > 
> 
> > I have tried to post to the "Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific
> 
> > Forth from being lost," but google has rejected each post.
> 
> > 
> 
> > I bought a "Scientific Forth" copy to scan. I am currently working with
> 
> > Paper Upgrade Project, http://www.paperupgrade.org/, to scan the book. 
> 
> This
> 
> > should be completed the third week of January. This will give the project 
> 
> a
> 
> > good base from which to start.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In regards to rights, I have tried contacting the listed book publisher,
> 
> > Mechum Banks Publishing, with no luck. I think I have located Julian's
> 
> > widow, Harriet. I think we may get a better reception from her if someone
> 
> > who has contacted her before now contacts her. I'd would like to 
> 
> informally
> 
> > nominate C.G. Montgomery because cgm worked with Harriet to secure 
> 
> Julian's
> 
> > archive at Taygeta.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Please pass this message on to clf. Please inform me if you chose not to
> 
> > pass on the message.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Thank you,
> 
> > 
> 
> > Josef Gabriel (jg)
> 
> -- 
> 
> ********************************************************************
> 
> Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
> 
> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
> 
> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
> 
> Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
> 
> Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
> 
> ********************************************************************

I handed the book is currently be scanned by the Paper Upgrade Project. I'm hoping for the best. The left hand pages are a bit too close to the binding, so the binding might have to be sacrificed :(

The search for Julian's widow, Harriet, continues. I am hoping to hear something by the end of the month. I just realized his children maybe easier to find... a last resort.

Thinking Forth is hosted at SourceForge. I don't see the FSL as a repository on Github. That might be nice to have an FSL repository packaged with Scientific Forth. 

Thoughts?

jg

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#27999

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:44:35 PM UTC-8, jg wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 12:37:03 AM UTC-8, Paul E Bennett wrote:
> 
> > mike73900 wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
> 
> > 
> 
> > > implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
> 
> > 
> 
> > > organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do
> 
> > 
> 
> > > to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put
> 
> > 
> 
> > > it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I have received an email from Josef Gabriel who asked me to place this on 
> 
> > 
> 
> > here.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Hi Paul,
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I have tried to post to the "Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Forth from being lost," but google has rejected each post.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I bought a "Scientific Forth" copy to scan. I am currently working with
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Paper Upgrade Project, http://www.paperupgrade.org/, to scan the book. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > This
> 
> > 
> 
> > > should be completed the third week of January. This will give the project 
> 
> > 
> 
> > a
> 
> > 
> 
> > > good base from which to start.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > In regards to rights, I have tried contacting the listed book publisher,
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Mechum Banks Publishing, with no luck. I think I have located Julian's
> 
> > 
> 
> > > widow, Harriet. I think we may get a better reception from her if someone
> 
> > 
> 
> > > who has contacted her before now contacts her. I'd would like to 
> 
> > 
> 
> > informally
> 
> > 
> 
> > > nominate C.G. Montgomery because cgm worked with Harriet to secure 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Julian's
> 
> > 
> 
> > > archive at Taygeta.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Please pass this message on to clf. Please inform me if you chose not to
> 
> > 
> 
> > > pass on the message.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Thank you,
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Josef Gabriel (jg)
> 
> > 
> 
> > -- 
> 
> > 
> 
> > ********************************************************************
> 
> > 
> 
> > Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
> 
> > 
> 
> > Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
> 
> > 
> 
> > Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
> 
> > 
> 
> > Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
> 
> > 
> 
> > Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
> 
> > 
> 
> > ********************************************************************
> 
> 
> 
> I handed the book is currently be scanned by the Paper Upgrade Project. I'm hoping for the best. The left hand pages are a bit too close to the binding, so the binding might have to be sacrificed :(
> 
> 
> 
> The search for Julian's widow, Harriet, continues. I am hoping to hear something by the end of the month. I just realized his children maybe easier to find... a last resort.
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking Forth is hosted at SourceForge. I don't see the FSL as a repository on Github. That might be nice to have an FSL repository packaged with Scientific Forth. 
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> jg

I think Julian's wife has been found. I am waiting on a confirmation.

I have received a test scan from the Paper Upgrade Project. The pdfs look great. Google Docs does a decent job with OCR'ing the pdfs, which will save time. This will be easier than transcribing "Thinking Forth." I will have the rest of the book scanned.

To wait or not to wait for the copyrights, that is the question.

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#28001

jg wrote:

> I think Julian's wife has been found. I am waiting on a confirmation.
> 
> I have received a test scan from the Paper Upgrade Project. The pdfs look
> great. Google Docs does a decent job with OCR'ing the pdfs, which will
> save time. This will be easier than transcribing "Thinking Forth." I will
> have the rest of the book scanned.
> 
> To wait or not to wait for the copyrights, that is the question.

Thanks for the update. You should probably wait for the copyright 
confirmation a bit longer. I trust you have a record of efforts to contact 
the holder so that, if they are not found in a reasonable time period and 
you publish it, you have some defence to say you made reasonable efforts in 
trying to track down the copyright holder.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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