Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #19609 > unrolled thread

FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/

Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth

Contents

  FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2013-02-10 15:30 -0600
    Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 13:43 -0800
    Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 14:07 -0800
      Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-10 19:26 -0500
      Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2013-02-11 04:52 +0000
      Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-11 19:43 +0000
        Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 12:41 -0800
        Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-11 22:01 +0100
    Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-10 19:26 -0500
      Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2013-02-11 09:52 -0600
        Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-12 08:43 -0500
          Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2013-02-12 08:56 -0600
            Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/ Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-12 11:38 -0800
            BIOS drive capacity limit, was [Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/] "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-13 02:00 -0500

#19609 — FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/

I'm just assuming Forth is best solution to my problem.
If not, just tell me "where to go"  ;)

I NEED 2 things and desire 3.

Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM
Item 1:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of 1st hard disk
Item 2:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of flash drive 
connected by USB

Optional: solution can run memory test on 1st 4 Gigs of memory

I'll loosen requirements to ability to run on Thinkpad T43 
and Thinkpad R61

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#19610

On Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:30:57 PM UTC-6, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I'm just assuming Forth is best solution to my problem.
> 
> If not, just tell me "where to go"  ;)
> 
> 
> 
> I NEED 2 things and desire 3.
> 
> 
> 
> Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM
> 
> Item 1:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of 1st hard disk
> 
> Item 2:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of flash drive 
> 
> connected by USB
> 
> 
> 
> Optional: solution can run memory test on 1st 4 Gigs of memory
> 
> 
> 
> I'll loosen requirements to ability to run on Thinkpad T43 
> 
> and Thinkpad R61

Ultimate Boot CD is a *turnkey* solution based on Linux. You would download and burn it's .iso file to a CD. FORTH is certainly capable but is often the "BRUTE FORCE" mess with silicon hardware solution.

Hope this helps. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19612

Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> writes:
> Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM

Who still uses cd-roms any more?  But bootable cd's isn't a big
deal.  I don't remember the precise steps, but basically you write
a 1.44MB file onto the CD and the system loads it like a floppy
disk.  This boot image can then load more stuff from the CD.

The simplest approach is to probably use a bootable Linux cd.
fedoraproject.org and archlinux.org and probably others have them.
Arch may be a little closer to the Forth spirit.

> Item 1:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of 1st hard disk

If you're trying to defeat data recovery, this is impossible except
maybe by using the "secure erase" feature of some hard disks, because of
spare sector remapping and suchlike that are inaccessible to normal
software.  The ATA disks in the old Thinkpad you mention may not have
that feature.

If you just want to use normal erasing, "dd of=/dev/sda if=/dev/zero"
or something like that (run from bootable Linux cd) should do it.
That should clobber the disk pretty well, but there's an off chance
of some stray data still existing. 

> Item 2:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of flash drive connected by
> USB

Again, if you're trying to defeat serious attempts at data recovery,
there is no way to do this with certainty.  Use encrypted file systems.

> Optional: solution can run memory test on 1st 4 Gigs of memory

See memtest.org.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19616

"Paul Rubin" <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:7x621zstzt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> writes:
> > Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM
>
> Who still uses cd-roms any more?

What do you use?  What would you suggest he use?

1) floppy disks are basically no longer available and too small
2) external USB sticks are bootable but are too small too
3) older versions of Windows won't install or boot off of external
USB harddisks
4) Linux typically won't completely boot off of external USB
harddisks

etc...


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19626

On 2013-02-10, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> writes:
>> Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM
>
> Arch may be a little closer to the Forth spirit.

Yep. Single iso file. Burn it to CD or dd it to USB stick. nice ZSH interface

>
>> Item 1:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of 1st hard disk
>
> If you're trying to defeat data recovery, this is impossible except
> maybe by using the "secure erase" feature of some hard disks, because of
> spare sector remapping and suchlike that are inaccessible to normal
> software.  The ATA disks in the old Thinkpad you mention may not have
> that feature.
>
> If you just want to use normal erasing, "dd of=/dev/sda if=/dev/zero"
> or something like that (run from bootable Linux cd) should do it.
> That should clobber the disk pretty well, but there's an off chance
> of some stray data still existing. 

dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/sdX bs=4M And data is beyound normal read.

SATA drives can be erased setting password to them and writing full 
again and resetting the key. Usually it writes leaves disk to non 
understandable condition.

And shred is also good tool. Although reserve sectors are beyond any 
access. Maybe if you fool that drive to be broken you can write some 
garbage to them but it breaks the HDD also.
>
>> Item 2:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of flash drive connected by
>> USB
>

USB is tricky. It hides even more of the HDD than achi method.

> Again, if you're trying to defeat serious attempts at data recovery,
> there is no way to do this with certainty.  Use encrypted file systems.

I have new laptop. I started writing one file to filesystem with zero 
and dd Windows to safe before first boot. Then I installed Linux on 
encrypted FS. Now I need send that laptop back for repair. I dd Linux to 
safe. The 320GB image gzips down to 35GB so the lesson is: When starting 
with encrypted filesystems fill it with zero (dd if=/dev/zero 
of=file-on-fs&&rm file-on-fs) to make some entropy!

>
>> Optional: solution can run memory test on 1st 4 Gigs of memory
>
> See memtest.org.
Arch install CD image has memtest86+

If you want to destroy data, nothing beats violence.

--
Hannu Vuolasaho

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19638

"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> writes:
> 2) external USB sticks are bootable but are too small too

External USB storage is supported up to terabytes in modern devices.
I'm sure he can find a combo of a USB SD card reader and SD storage
which will suffice.

> 4) Linux typically won't completely boot off of external USB
> harddisks

That information may be out of date, for instance:
    http://tx0.org/5bw

Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19640

On Monday, February 11, 2013 1:43:20 PM UTC-6, Andy Valencia wrote:
> "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> writes:
> 
> > 2) external USB sticks are bootable but are too small too
> 
> 
> 
> External USB storage is supported up to terabytes in modern devices.
> 
> I'm sure he can find a combo of a USB SD card reader and SD storage
> 
> which will suffice.
> 
> 
> 
> > 4) Linux typically won't completely boot off of external USB
> 
> > harddisks
> 
> 
> 
> That information may be out of date, for instance:
> 
>     http://tx0.org/5bw
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Valencia
> 
> Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
> 
> To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

I boot Ubuntu LTS from an 8GB USB stick on a circa 2001 Compaq laptop whose HDD got unfixed. I'd recommend 16 GB because updates are at the gate on my 8GB.

I find this a very decent Linux experience. Even able to write and debug ARM asm FORTH code in ARM simulator with gdb inteface.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19642

Andy Valencia wrote:

> "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> writes:
>> 2) external USB sticks are bootable but are too small too
> 
> External USB storage is supported up to terabytes in modern devices.
> I'm sure he can find a combo of a USB SD card reader and SD storage
> which will suffice.

The smallest USB stick you can get nowadays is 2GB, and that's a special 
cheap giveaway pack.  Usually, it's 16GB upwards, sometimes, you find cheap 
8GB sticks.  That compares quite favorable to a CD or DVD.

>> 4) Linux typically won't completely boot off of external USB
>> harddisks
> 
> That information may be out of date, for instance:
>     http://tx0.org/5bw

I've booted&installed Linux from SD cards for years now; I prefer SD cards 
over plain USB sticks, since you can use them both in a computer and in a 
camera (maybe you need a SD card reader stick), and of course, they are more 
compact.  Burn a DVD?  I have computers with no DVD drive at all.  And I 
don't even miss it.  Backups go to a terabyte USB drive.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19617

"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> wrote in message
news:vI-dncAjquwIjIXMnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@supernews.com...

> I'm just assuming Forth is best solution to my problem.

Why?

I think most standalone Forth or Forth OSes will have the exact
same problem that DOS has (discussed below).

> I NEED 2 things and desire 3.
>
> Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM
> Item 1:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of 1st hard disk
> Item 2:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of flash drive
> connected by USB
>
> Optional: solution can run memory test on 1st 4 Gigs of memory
>

It sounds like you need a so-called Live-CD, i.e., bootable, runs
in memory, filesystem loaded to ramdisk, OS and tools on the CD.
Let's look at Windows, Linux, and DOS.

Windows doesn't seem to have bootable CDs available, including
Live-CDs, due to legal issues involved in the licensing it.

Linux is the primary OS that has the tools to do what you
requested and also has Live-CDs.  The problems with Linux Live-CDs
are usually two-fold: 1) you typically can't unmount the CDROM
that is live to insert another CD with more files or utilities
which means you typically need two CDROMs 2) Live-CDs are designed
for trying out the distro, and are not usually designed for error
recovery or for Linux OS setup, so they are typically missing the
utilities you need.  You might have to search through quite a few
Linux distro's to find a Live-CD with the needed utilities, or
ability to unmount the CDROM, if needed.

DOS has the tools to do that and will fit in a small image.  The
problem with DOS is that it uses the BIOS to access devices.  DOS
doesn't directly program devices.  Direct programming of harddisks
is required to access all the sectors on larger harddisks.  That
means the sectors on very large hard disks are inaccessible to DOS
since BIOS cannot access them.  However, I doubt that's a problem
with your laptop.  Most standalone Forth solutions will likely use
the BIOS too.  You'd need a full featured OS like Linux or Windows
for drivers which directly program the harddisk.  The other
problem with DOS is the USB support.  It's not built in.  It's
available, but it requires testing a bunch of different device
drivers until you find what works for that PC.  IIRC, DOS needs
two files to work together to get USB support, an ASPI driver and
a physical device driver.


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19634

This is a general reply to all who responded.
Rod's comments give me an organized framework to answer 
questions explicitly and inplicity raised in responses so far.

Rod Pemberton wrote:
> "Richard Owlett" <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> wrote in message
> news:vI-dncAjquwIjIXMnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@supernews.com...
>
>> I'm just assuming Forth is best solution to my problem.
>
> Why?

Primarily personal preference but with some logical basis.
I want close to bare metal control in a language that I've 
some familiarity.
{I last programmed in assembler when 8085 and Z80 were new. 
Never learned C beyond "hello world".}
Colon as defining word just makes intuitive sense to me.
{I'm following the discussion of Wolf's Forth in Tcl for 
this reason.}

>
> I think most standalone Forth or Forth OSes will have the exact
> same problem that DOS has (discussed below).

I wasn't thinking in terms of an OS, mindset more resembles 
single purpose embedded system (see below).
>
>> I NEED 2 things and desire 3.
>>
>> Item 0: solution resides on bootable CDROM

Should have probally said CD - [I date from 026's and 12AX7's]

>> Item 1:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of 1st hard disk
>> Item 2:  solution can erase *ALL* sectors of flash drive
>> connected by USB
>>
>> Optional: solution can run memory test on 1st 4 Gigs of memory
>>
>
> It sounds like you need a so-called Live-CD, i.e., bootable, runs
> in memory, filesystem loaded to ramdisk, OS and tools on the CD.
> Let's look at Windows, Linux, and DOS.

I wanted a bootable CD in order to avoid an OS .

> [snip discussion of limitations of Windows and Linux]
>
> DOS has the tools to do that and will fit in a small image.  The
> problem with DOS is that it uses the BIOS to access devices.

If I was writing FROM SCRATCH what I envision, it would 
likely be to no more than a dozen BIOS routines and some 
loop counters.
It would write 0x5A from first byte of first sector thru the 
last BIOS accesible sector. I did not mention that in my 
original post because I did not want to prematurely rule out 
possibilities that might end up meeting my ultimate goals. 
If there is a "tool" already existing it may have features 
to address a wider set of problems than I'm inteested in at 
the moment.

>DOS
> doesn't directly program devices.  Direct programming of harddisks
> is required to access all the sectors on larger harddisks.  That
> means the sectors on very large hard disks are inaccessible to DOS
> since BIOS cannot access them.  However, I doubt that's a problem
> with your laptop.  Most standalone Forth solutions will likely use
> the BIOS too.  You'd need a full featured OS like Linux or Windows
> for drivers which directly program the harddisk.

I doubt it.

>   The other
> problem with DOS is the USB support.  It's not built in.  It's
> available, but it requires testing a bunch of different device
> drivers until you find what works for that PC.  IIRC, DOS needs
> two files to work together to get USB support, an ASPI driver and
> a physical device driver.

BUT ;)
Both my laptops can boot from USB flash drives, therefore 
the ability to access one must already be present.


Is there a free (as in beer) Forth available that can create 
an bootable ISO image?

TIA

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19670

"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> wrote in message
news:3N-dnQ92c_hGjoTMnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@supernews.com...
...

> If I was writing FROM SCRATCH what I envision, it would
> likely be to no more than a dozen BIOS routines and some
> loop counters.

Ok.

> It would write 0x5A from first byte of first sector thru the
> last BIOS accesible sector.

For large, modern drives, the last BIOS accessible sector is far
less than "*ALL* sectors".  Direct programming of the drive is
necessary.  However, your laptops probably don't have such large
drives.

> Both my laptops can boot from USB flash drives, therefore
> the ability to access one must already be present.
>

Yes, but, my understanding is that this implemented in hardware,
not software.  It's called "legacy emulation".  The hardware
emulates the boot device as an IDE drive.  Even if it was
implemented in software, there are no BIOS routines for accessing
or using this extra functionality.  Only the booted from device is
emulated, i.e., you can use BIOS disk routines - with their size
limitations - to access the booted from device.  If you boot from
CDROM, then your "environment" will need driver code for accessing
USB devices.  There is no BIOS support for accessing USB.  If you
boot from USB, then your "environment" will need driver code for
accessing CDROMs.  If you boot from USB, then you'll be erasing
your boot "environment".  That's why I recommended a full featured
OS.


Rod Pemberton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19674

Rod Pemberton wrote:
> "Richard Owlett" <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> wrote in message
> news:3N-dnQ92c_hGjoTMnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@supernews.com...
> ...
>
>> If I was writing FROM SCRATCH what I envision, it would
>> likely be to no more than a dozen BIOS routines and some
>> loop counters.
>
> Ok.
>
>> It would write 0x5A from first byte of first sector thru the
>> last BIOS accesible sector.
>
> For large, modern drives, the last BIOS accessible sector is far
> less than "*ALL* sectors".

It's been decades since I dived into BIOS routines. Just how 
large a drive can a BIOS handle?
In any case, after the first few hundred MB the importance 
of erasing a sector starts decreasing to "it would be nice if".

> Direct programming of the drive is
> necessary.  However, your laptops probably don't have such large
> drives.

So Forth can twiddle I/O ports. Not sure I would spend the 
effort to find out what place in which ports.
When I pose a question I'm likely use an "ideal world" 
perspective and then wait to be kicked out of the rut I've 
dug myself into.

>
>> Both my laptops can boot from USB flash drives, therefore
>> the ability to access one must already be present.
>>
>
> Yes, but, my understanding is that this implemented in hardware,
> not software.  It's called "legacy emulation".  The hardware
> emulates the boot device as an IDE drive.  Even if it was
> implemented in software, there are no BIOS routines for accessing
> or using this extra functionality.  Only the booted from device is
> emulated, i.e., you can use BIOS disk routines - with their size
> limitations - to access the booted from device.  If you boot from
> CDROM, then your "environment" will need driver code for accessing
> USB devices.  There is no BIOS support for accessing USB.  If you
> boot from USB, then your "environment" will need driver code for
> accessing CDROMs.  If you boot from USB, then you'll be erasing
> your boot "environment".  That's why I recommended a full featured
> OS.
>
>
> Rod Pemberton
>
>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19679

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 3:56:28 PM UTC+1, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Rod Pemberton wrote:
> 
> > "Richard Owlett" <row....@pcnetinc.com> wrote in message
> 
> > news:3N-dnQ92c_hGuSdnZ2d@supernews.com...
> 
> > ...
> 
> >
> 
> >> If I was writing FROM SCRATCH what I envision, it would
> 
> >> likely be to no more than a dozen BIOS routines and some
> 
> >> loop counters.
> 
> >
> 
> > Ok.
> 
> >
> 
> >> It would write 0x5A from first byte of first sector thru the
> 
> >> last BIOS accesible sector.
> 
> >
> 
> > For large, modern drives, the last BIOS accessible sector is far
> 
> > less than "*ALL* sectors".
> 
> 
> 
> It's been decades since I dived into BIOS routines. Just how 
> 
> large a drive can a BIOS handle?
> 
> In any case, after the first few hundred MB the importance 
> 
> of erasing a sector starts decreasing to "it would be nice if".
> 
> 
> 
> > Direct programming of the drive is
> 
> > necessary.  However, your laptops probably don't have such large
> 
> > drives.
> 
> 
> 
> So Forth can twiddle I/O ports. Not sure I would spend the 
> 
> effort to find out what place in which ports.
> 
> When I pose a question I'm likely use an "ideal world" 
> 
> perspective and then wait to be kicked out of the rut I've 
> 
> dug myself into.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> 
> >> Both my laptops can boot from USB flash drives, therefore
> 
> >> the ability to access one must already be present.
> 
> >>
> 
> >
> 
> > Yes, but, my understanding is that this implemented in hardware,
> 
> > not software.  It's called "legacy emulation".  The hardware
> 
> > emulates the boot device as an IDE drive.  Even if it was
> 
> > implemented in software, there are no BIOS routines for accessing
> 
> > or using this extra functionality.  Only the booted from device is
> 
> > emulated, i.e., you can use BIOS disk routines - with their size
> 
> > limitations - to access the booted from device.  If you boot from
> 
> > CDROM, then your "environment" will need driver code for accessing
> 
> > USB devices.  There is no BIOS support for accessing USB.  If you
> 
> > boot from USB, then your "environment" will need driver code for
> 
> > accessing CDROMs.  If you boot from USB, then you'll be erasing
> 
> > your boot "environment".  That's why I recommended a full featured
> 
> > OS.
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> > Rod Pemberton
> 
> >
> 
> >

Hi Richard,

> Just how large a drive can a BIOS handle? 
2048 GBytes, using Logical Block Addressing, a 32 bit sector count and 512 byte sectors.
Fortunately every BIOS this century supports LBA, so CHS is a thing of the past, and so are many of the limits that it caused.
When 4TB USB drives are available they will probably have to increase the sector size - this will give a practical upper limit of 128TB...

Best regards,
Howerd

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#19695 — BIOS drive capacity limit, was [Re: FORTH for brute force test available? ??? ;/]

"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> wrote in message
news:meKdnW56yJy8xYfMnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@supernews.com...

> It's been decades since I dived into BIOS routines. Just how
> large a drive can a BIOS handle?

I'm not entirely sure.  There are a number of capacity barriers.
They are the result of limitations created by the combination of
the BIOS calls and the drive interface, e.g., IDE or ATA, or the
OS, e.g., DOS or Windows.  The BIOS Int 13h interface has been
extended by a number of BIOS related specifications.  I've listed
the critical ones that I'm aware of below the links to webpages on
drive capacity limits.  I'm not aware of an extension to Int 13h
to support 48-bit LBA.  That could mean BIOSes after 1998 are
limited to 128GB (28-bit LBA).  Of course, you can directly
program ATA devices instead of using the BIOS.

Webpages discussing drive capacity limits:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Large-Disk-HOWTO-4.html
http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/bioslim.htm
http://ata-atapi.com/hiwchs.html
http://mrkay.org/zenpc/ref/hdd/bios/modesECHS-c.html


1981 original IBM PC BIOS Int 13h
1984 original IBM AT BIOS Int 13h - CHS upto 504MB
1992 IBM/MS Int 13h extensions - CHS translation
1994 Phoenix Enhanced Disk Drive 1.0 - CHS translation 8.4GB
1996 ATA-2 - 28-bit LBA - 128GB
1998 Phoenic EDD 3.0 - Int 13h extended for 28-LBA
2001 ATA/ATAPI-6 - 48-bit LBA - 144PB


Rod Pemberton
PS.  I added alt.os.development in the case someone there
has more information.

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.forth

csiph-web