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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #15684 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100 |
| Last post | 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 143 — 26 participants |
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Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 15:50 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-03 14:04 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 10:29 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:07 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:27 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:11 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 20:12 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 13:08 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 17:48 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-10-03 07:39 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:24 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:13 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 22:20 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 12:41 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 22:40 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 15:26 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:54 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-05 08:19 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 22:18 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-05 08:20 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 11:08 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 08:32 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-07 21:39 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 21:03 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-08 19:09 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-08 21:57 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:10 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:12 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:29 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:13 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 02:02 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 18:24 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-11 17:21 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-11 12:33 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 13:42 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 18:59 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 13:49 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-12 03:27 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 19:18 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-12 18:53 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 22:55 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-13 22:07 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:56 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 18:41 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-13 16:05 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 02:57 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 00:26 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 19:28 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-14 03:17 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-14 15:43 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:18 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-15 10:03 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 04:04 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-15 21:34 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:51 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 11:31 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 16:50 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:06 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 00:38 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 02:06 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 03:38 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 13:40 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 01:00 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 22:32 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 04:49 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 01:35 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-06 06:17 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth arc <arc.deletethis@vorsicht-bissig.de> - 2012-10-07 23:45 +1300
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:34 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 12:16 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:04 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 11:41 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-05 12:29 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> - 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 08:52 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 11:53 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400
Page 7 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 Next page →
| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xk3v3vwzk.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #15953 |
theoriginalsnial@gmail.com writes: > For example, a light switch 'buttons-up' the complexity of the > national grid, and it's known they're very easy to operate. I like your light switch example, and it makes the same point as the earlier examples I gave. > there's an inevitable conflict between requirements, resources and > their implementation. For example, the user-interface for a GPS system > is more complex than for traditional map navigation Really it's not. Just key in the address you want to travel to, versus messing with map books, street-finder indexes, coordinate grids telling you to jump from one page to another or buy another book, etc. Or worse, in the nautical case: figuring out how to use a sextant and sight tables and all that, plus it doesn't work if there is cloud cover. > and future needs to support, e.g. congestion re-routing or inter-car > collaboration. Maps don't do that, the car GPS that I currently use doesn't either, and it's very helpful regardless. > But end-to-end complexity can be understood fairly easily. In the > early 80s we'd turn on a computer and start coding within seconds. Again you're talking about the boot delay while saying you're talking about something different. If you get a regular PC to boot in 3-seconds and auto-start an IDE, what have you lost? Maybe you could just do a software image that boots a PC or a Raspberry Pi to your favorite IDE. > multi-file projects expose the implementation trade-off between > compilation performance and project size requirements. It's not just compilation performance, it's also general modularity and manageability of the code. There's no significant loading delay for reasonable size Python programs but it's still helpful to separate stuff into different files. But, maybe for initial teaching, this isn't needed. >development environments such as Eclipse expect even newbies to handle >multiple targets, sdks, simulators, mixed-language project I think this is sort of a Java and "enterprise" thing. I don't think Java is a good language for beginning programmers. > [Logo] didn't replace Basic, but it is pretty good. Basic is pretty dead now, unless VB counts as Basic, and even VB is pretty dead now, so something replaced Basic. > I do know that about 10 to 20x fewer kids can code at all compared > with the mid-80s, Where on earth do you get numbers like that from? One impression I do get is that the main app kids are interested in coding these days is video games, so your product should be able to get stuff moving on the screen. > [8-button keypad] it's faster than texting and as fast as typing on a > touch-screen :-) Really, your thing will be a lot more usable with a USB host port that can accept a normal PC keyboard.
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <506f3063$0$3494$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #15906 |
In article <6cd04453-c73a-4587-a160-0603784ef445@googlegroups.com>, <theoriginalsnial@gmail.com> wrote: >Hi Paul, >> .. And don't you have to boot your PC in order to >> start the terminal program before you can type to the Fignition board? > >FIGnition, unlike embedded MCU boards like Launchpad or Arduino, is a >whole, self-contained computer with a keypad for programming and video >output and boots straight into its programming environment. > >I thought it was obvious from the introductory paragraph on the >FIGnition home page that with FIGnition you can code on its keypad, >directly into the machine as you would with an early 80s micro. Indeed, pretty unbelievable. It is beyond me they didn't spare a 5 pin mini DIN connector, so you can plug in a vintage keyboard. Typical dump prices 1 or 2 euro's. Then of course you can find them by the wayside. (I've collected 5 IBM original's, so my stock should last 5 life times.) > >However, on reflection, perhaps it's not obvious enough for some people. It was the first thing I looked for. Do I have to hook up a PC, and where do I plug it in? But then I'm known for getting at the important points fast. > >-cheers from julz Groetjes Albert
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| From | "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ad137dF5tb1U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #15858 |
theoriginalsnial@gmail.com wrote: [%X] > Well, I was just responding to the initial post. Building your own > computer *is* inspiring. It's also a Forth-based computer, which is what > you want on this forum eh? Like proper computers it doesn't need an > external host to do any programming with it. And it's very similar to an > early 80s micro, using similar resources. > > But the key thing *is* the simplicity, that's what makes it special; > because only simple machines can be mastered and understood from > end-to-end. How does it benefit kids if their only true experience of > programming requires incomprehensible Giga-byte and GigaHertz, multi-core > monstrosities? How would they ever grasp it, if even reading the code in > the system would take many lifetimes? As an advocate of elegant simplicity I know that it is sometimes very hard to recognize it when you see it. However, simple doesn't always mean small scale systems. > And how is it inspirational if every computer we experience is > pre-packaged, surface-mount technology that requires a microscope to > modify it? It's in some sense impressive, but what does that say about > accessibility? I think we need things to be on several different levels. From plug-together pre-made simple modules through modifiable EVB's to completely packaged high end systems. All should have their place. > Ultimately, we have to weigh up why kids aren't inspired to program today. Which was the main crux of the original post on this thread. What kind of projects would "Inspire a Generation" of the kids coming through schools now. Whatever ideas come up we also need to remember that the teaching staff in schools will also need some help in understanding what they are putting to the kids and not only do we need kits but also good written material and teaching support aids. > Is it because computers aren't cheap enough (though even a netbook is 3x > cheaper than a ZX Spectrum in today's money)? Or could it be something to > do with them being 10,000 times more complex? Does FIGnition fit the STEM > club criteria? (yes) Can you do a substantial amount of a GCSE computer > studies on a FIGnition? (yes) Is FIGnition cute and fun? (you bet ;-) ) ! There are quite a number of cheap kits out there but which ones are most suitable. There is the MSP430 Launchpad with 4E4th, which can be got up and running for about 4 Euros, Arduino's and Raspberry Pi's to name a few. These cover a range of complexity levels and may suit different age ranges. I think something like the MSP Launchpad device needs a few kit board that just plug onto it to give a range of different projects from the simple starter kit. Judging by the cost constraints of many schools, these additional boards will also need to be inexpensive. Thanks for all the contributions so far. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f4836a22-188d-477a-8d3f-ffa4e505b792@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #15858 |
> Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > > Does anybody hope on the such symple device, > > > which can be implemented by hundreds ways? > > > > Well, I was just responding to the initial post. Building your own computer *is* inspiring. It's also a Forth-based computer, which is what you want on this forum eh? Like proper computers it doesn't need an external host to do any programming with it. And it's very similar to an early 80s micro, using similar resources. Perhaps, if I told I've got a linecard of my own FPGA-based Forth-processors, it makes things easier. It is not necessary to explain me all benefits of Forth in embedded systems. I just want to say that first imagination and 'Wow! -effect' are not enough to provide a valuable results. Simple projects could be a good quick-start for beginners, but they should be followed by more complex ones. So, we should think about teaching course, not about simple device without any specific functions. > But the key thing *is* the simplicity, that's what makes it special; because only simple machines can be mastered and understood from end-to-end. How does it benefit kids if their only true experience of programming requires incomprehensible Giga-byte and GigaHertz, multi-core monstrosities? How would they ever grasp it, if even reading the code in the system would take many lifetimes? > > > > And how is it inspirational if every computer we experience is pre-packaged, surface-mount technology that requires a microscope to modify it? It's in some sense impressive, but what does that say about accessibility? It looks like a mix with platform-independent basic principes (that's good!) and evaluation platforms, which targets a very simple applications. You should to choose, what you want to do - explain something (and you require a comprehensive hardware platform to demonstrate as many features as possible), or implement a low-cost high-volume device. > Ultimately, we have to weigh up why kids aren't inspired to program today. Is it because computers aren't cheap enough (though even a netbook is 3x cheaper than a ZX Spectrum in today's money)? Or could it be something to do with them being 10,000 times more complex? Does FIGnition fit the STEM club criteria? (yes) Can you do a substantial amount of a GCSE computer studies on a FIGnition? (yes) Is FIGnition cute and fun? (you bet ;-) ) ! In this project, you are talking about a student lab. It requires about 1 hour to explain and implement this device, almost regardless of hardware platform. Also, check the 'rotary encoder' for properly debouncing scheme. Some kinds of these devices uses two optocoupled pairs, which makes a pulses consequently and at a different moments of time. So you simple should wait for second sensor after first and so on. Otherwise, you must filter the leading and trailing bounce sequences. Finally, I can repeat that this application is too simple for inspiring anybody for a long time. Ilya Tarasov
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| From | ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8ba234b3-9785-453b-9f27-5ddc3891249b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #15684 |
> In attending this years EuroForth conference in Oxford, it seems that the > > community needs to instil the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded > > the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons > > for self expres level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and > > Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level > > upwards. > > > > There are companies that need the right sort of new-blood intake that not > > only has some enthusiasm for the STEM subjects, but also the desire to > > continue learning useful skills and techniques to create the technology that > > will carry their own generation's aspiration to self expression. > > > > What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable > > and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal? > > > > -- > > ******************************************************************** > > Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> > > Forth based HIDECS Consultancy > > Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 > > Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 > > Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. > > ******************************************************************** Hello all. I'm afraid a single project will be not enough to make a seriously influence on the whole situation. Does anybody hope on the such symple device, which can be implemented by hundreds ways? That is Forth specific features, that could be requested? 'Oh, well! That's a good idea, I'll going to write a short program on C/C++ for one of the my lovely MC boards'. I'm sure there are should be a better solution than simple 'one-day embedded projects'. If you don't agreed you can think I'm ride my bear for vodka while typing this message :) With best greetings Ilya Tarasov Russia, Moscow
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c94628b0-a38f-4adc-9f08-2f0f92373ed0@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #15684 |
On Saturday, September 15, 2012 11:29:08 PM UTC+2, Paul E. Bennett wrote: > In attending this years EuroForth conference in Oxford, it seems that the > > community needs to instil the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded > > the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons > > for self expres level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and > > Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level > > upwards. > > > > There are companies that need the right sort of new-blood intake that not > > only has some enthusiasm for the STEM subjects, but also the desire to > > continue learning useful skills and techniques to create the technology that > > will carry their own generation's aspiration to self expression. > > > > What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable > > and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal? > > > > -- > > ******************************************************************** > > Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> > > Forth based HIDECS Consultancy > > Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 > > Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 > > Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. > > ******************************************************************** Thanks Paul! Three weeks and 78 posts - 25 more than for "The Secret of a Successful Programming Language" - sure a theme which is of interest. It's a pity that the Forth path may get lost in bloating. I am missing an offer where to buy this ultimately easygoing low priced Forth board. Believe me, kids will understand Forth. When I showed Forth decades ago at the Munich electronica fair, kids told me how to correct my typing after a few lines, programming a bird's chip chip ... They immediately grasped how it works. We need to to offer special easygoing tools for the next generations of enthusiastic and engaged Forth programmers education! These kids are our future clients, and they are eager to learn. We have to give the opportunity to teach and learn Forth in a new, up to now unknown, and easygoing fashion.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k528cm$ek7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16132 |
On 10/9/2012 5:30 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > > Thanks Paul! > Three weeks and 78 posts - 25 more than for "The Secret of a Successful Programming Language" - sure a theme which is of interest. > > It's a pity that the Forth path may get lost in bloating. > I am missing an offer where to buy this ultimately easygoing low priced Forth board. > > Believe me, kids will understand Forth. What Forth board are you referring to? There are dozens of microprocessor boards available at prices anywhere from $4.30 upward. What about those boards make them inappropriate? I think the only issue is the software. Someone would need to provide a software development environment that suits kids. So what do you want from the board and who will provide the software? I will be happy to design a board if one is not available. Rick
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| From | "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <adkr0lFaluhU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #16136 |
rickman wrote: > On 10/9/2012 5:30 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: >> >> Thanks Paul! >> Three weeks and 78 posts - 25 more than for "The Secret of a Successful >> Programming Language" - sure a theme which is of interest. >> >> It's a pity that the Forth path may get lost in bloating. >> I am missing an offer where to buy this ultimately easygoing low priced >> Forth board. >> >> Believe me, kids will understand Forth. > > What Forth board are you referring to? There are dozens of > microprocessor boards available at prices anywhere from $4.30 upward. > What about those boards make them inappropriate? > > I think the only issue is the software. Someone would need to provide a > software development environment that suits kids. > > So what do you want from the board and who will provide the software? I > will be happy to design a board if one is not available. Probably he was referring to the TMS430 LaunchPad boards and the 4e4th that can be downloaded to it. The 4e4th web-site is:- <http://www.4e4th.eu/>. The boards are available from Farnell and probably RS too. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7dee80d9-b629-4b17-b46f-47285ff3ff81@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16136 |
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:27:35 AM UTC+2, rickman wrote: > > What Forth board are you referring to? There are dozens of > microprocessor boards available at prices anywhere from $4.30 upward. > I am missing an offer of one of these boards loaded with Forth! > I think the only issue is the software. Someone would need to provide a > software development environment that suits kids. > That's the point! > So what do you want from the board and who will provide the software? I > will be happy to design a board if one is not available. > > Rick Are you able to design an appropriate board which can be sold for 4$ or 4€ ? I read several comments suggesting to learn Forth programming on a PC, but in my opinion the real Forth domain covers programming standalone microprocessor boards. For beginners there is still a software gap. Who will provide the software?
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xvceiwkf8.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16153 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: > I am missing an offer of one of these boards loaded with Forth! Well there is the Fignition board. IIRC the 4e4th folks were offering Launchpad boards with Forth pre-installed but of course you have to plug a PC into them. > Are you able to design an appropriate board which can be sold for 4$ or 4€ ? Something like this, perhaps, but with even less stuff on it: http://www.diygadget.com/avr-micro-sd-development-board-atmega32u4.html > I read several comments suggesting to learn Forth programming on a PC, > but in my opinion the real Forth domain covers programming standalone > microprocessor boards. For beginners there is still a software gap. IMHO microprocessor boards make sense for learning about electronics and hardware, since you can connect up stuff to the GPIO pins and the like. Otherwise do a thought experiment: plug in a Forth board and start programming it through a PC, and ask how you can tell whether the board CPU is actually doing anything, or if the Forth code you're typing is actually running on some PC simulation. If you can't tell, why bother with the board? Overall I think microprocessor boards are a special topic in programming and aren't that good a choice as a first topic.
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2c74fa08-4e91-4736-a147-d60bf60e8add@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16160 |
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:01:17 PM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote: > visualforth.com writes: > > > I am missing an offer of one of these boards loaded with Forth! > > Well there is the Fignition board. I guess you will need some soldering skills to use the 32$ Fignition board? > > > Are you able to design an appropriate board which can be sold for 4$ or 4€ ? > > Something like this, perhaps, but with even less stuff on it: > http://www.diygadget.com/avr-micro-sd-development-board-atmega32u4.html Is this your design? > > > I read several comments suggesting to learn Forth programming on a PC, > > but in my opinion the real Forth domain covers programming standalone > > microprocessor boards. For beginners there is still a software gap. > > IMHO microprocessor boards make sense for learning about electronics and > hardware, since you can connect up stuff to the GPIO pins and the like. > Learning about electronics and hardware will be more and more important: The next generation of PCs may not have the ability to control hardware of your choice. > Otherwise do a thought experiment: plug in a Forth board and start > programming it through a PC, and ask how you can tell whether the board > CPU is actually doing anything, or if the Forth code you're typing is > actually running on some PC simulation. If you can't tell, why bother > with the board? > I know this scenario. Therefore it is totally important to have an Forth-IDE which uses a real Terminal software giving the look and feel of a direct target connection. There are so many examples on the web about how to switch a LED on and off. Forth is the only programming environment which makes this task a real easy one. Meanwhile generating Morse-code is en vogue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANZ_zruJ3_0 > > Overall I think microprocessor boards are a special topic in programming > and aren't that good a choice as a first topic. In my opinion learning about electronics and hardware is "the real stuff", but I have to admit, I am biased. My career was based on learning about electronics and hardware, and for my first Forth project I used RSC-Forth on my own R6511 based microprocessor hardware.
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| From | theoriginalsnial@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4a276b4b-aa50-477e-9918-8b774b3a7b34@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16163 |
Hi, > I guess you will need some soldering skills to use the 32$ Fignition board? > Therefore it is totally important to have an Forth-IDE which uses a real > Terminal software giving the look and feel of a direct target connection. FIGnition isn't just a microprocessor board - it's a complete computer; a little bit more capable than a Jupiter Ace, though less powerful than a ZX Spectrum. You go one better than the look and feel of a direct target connection, since you program it in-situ using its surprisingly efficient keypad. Forth Programs run from its external RAM not internal Flash as fast as an 8-bit micro runs machine code. It's not an arduino though it looks very much like that kind of device, it's a whole computer, which requires just a composite video out for a display. And the great thing is that it does the job of being complete computer with a built-in compiler in just 16Kb of firmware, which means, like 80s computers, it can be, built, coded and understood from top to bottom. It really is great, a neat and unique machine! -cheers from julz
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xr4p6w7ra.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16163 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: >> actually running on some PC simulation. If you can't tell, why bother > ...Therefore it is totally important to have an Forth-IDE which uses a > real Terminal software giving the look and feel of a direct target > connection. Still doesn't help. The terminal software could be connected to a loopback port whose other end is driven by the simulator. > In my opinion learning about electronics and hardware is "the real > stuff", Well sure, if the subject is electronics and hardware, then great, it's the real stuff. If the subject is woodworking, then the real stuff is the table that the computer is sitting on. If the subject is software (which is what I thought it supposedly was), the code is the real stuff and the hardware is like the table. The hardware does something important but the actual details aren't of much concern to the programmer.
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <de202cc0-15de-475b-ac97-4e09095f6b50@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16168 |
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:34:49 PM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote: > > >> actually running on some PC simulation. If you can't tell, why bother > > Still doesn't help. The terminal software could be connected to a > loopback port whose other end is driven by the simulator. > You are kidding! Do you have a $4.30 simulator which does a Morse code, to name an example? Does your simulator play an SOS immediately when connected to a battery without a PC nearby? That's the real check about programming the real stuff!
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5c91d$otl$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16205 |
On 10/11/2012 8:17 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:34:49 PM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote: >> >>>> actually running on some PC simulation. If you can't tell, why bother >> >> Still doesn't help. The terminal software could be connected to a >> loopback port whose other end is driven by the simulator. >> > > You are kidding! > Do you have a $4.30 simulator which does a Morse code, to name an example? > Does your simulator play an SOS immediately when connected to a battery without a PC nearby? > > That's the real check about programming the real stuff! There are justifications on both sides. The simulator is essentially zero recurring cost. Every student has a PC these days. Heck even the loopback port is software rather than using two serial ports and a cable! On the other hand, you can't debug a simulator with an oscilloscope, at least not without some difficulty. That level of interaction is something that every student needs at some point, but maybe not at first. I remember when I was in grad school the EE department worked on a simulator to teach an imaginary bit slice CPU design they had been developing and used in a couple of classes. Back then CPU time cost bucks! Each student only got so much and you had to get your programs working before you ran out. Rick
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5596d$llm$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16153 |
On 10/10/2012 6:52 AM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:27:35 AM UTC+2, rickman wrote: >> >> What Forth board are you referring to? There are dozens of >> microprocessor boards available at prices anywhere from $4.30 upward. >> > > I am missing an offer of one of these boards loaded with Forth! > >> I think the only issue is the software. Someone would need to provide a >> software development environment that suits kids. >> > > That's the point! > >> So what do you want from the board and who will provide the software? I >> will be happy to design a board if one is not available. >> >> Rick > > Are you able to design an appropriate board which can be sold for 4$ or 4€ ? > > I read several comments suggesting to learn Forth programming on a PC, but in my opinion the real Forth domain covers programming standalone microprocessor boards. For beginners there is still a software gap. > > Who will provide the software? You can get a $4.30 board right now. Is that good enough? As to the software, that is my point. Someone needs to do that... do I have to do it all? Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xsj9ly82c.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16175 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > You can get a $4.30 board right now. Is that good enough? > As to the software, that is my point. Someone needs to do that... do > I have to do it all? I thought you knew about http://4e4th.eu .
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0852de6c-9caa-431d-aa7c-f0884a9f88ff@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16180 |
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 5:57:31 AM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote: > rickman <gnuarm.com> writes: > > > You can get a $4.30 board right now. Is that good enough? > > > As to the software, that is my point. Someone needs to do that... do > > > I have to do it all? > > > > I thought you knew about http://4e4th.eu . And there is a special link for English readers: http://4e4th.com/
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| From | Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <k5gkin$ht6$1@newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de> |
| In reply to | #16180 |
Paul Rubin schrieb: > rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> You can get a $4.30 board right now. Is that good enough? >> As to the software, that is my point. Someone needs to do that... do >> I have to do it all? > > I thought you knew about http://4e4th.eu . I wrote Mecrisp: http://mecrisp.sourceforge.net/ As this is a native code implementation and contains an assembler and a disassembler, it should be interesting for those that want to start assembly programming as well. Interrupt handling can be done, too. Best wishes, Matthias Koch
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| From | albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <507bf92a$0$3170$e4fe514c@dreader35.news.xs4all.nl> |
| In reply to | #16175 |
In article <k5596d$llm$2@dont-email.me>, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >On 10/10/2012 6:52 AM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: >> On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:27:35 AM UTC+2, rickman wrote: >>> >>> What Forth board are you referring to? There are dozens of >>> microprocessor boards available at prices anywhere from $4.30 upward. >>> >> >> I am missing an offer of one of these boards loaded with Forth! >> >>> I think the only issue is the software. Someone would need to provide a >>> software development environment that suits kids. >>> >> >> That's the point! >> >>> So what do you want from the board and who will provide the software? I >>> will be happy to design a board if one is not available. >>> >>> Rick >> >> Are you able to design an appropriate board which can be sold for 4$ or 4€ ? >> >> I read several comments suggesting to learn Forth programming on a PC, >but in my opinion the real Forth domain covers programming standalone >microprocessor boards. For beginners there is still a software gap. >> >> Who will provide the software? > >You can get a $4.30 board right now. Is that good enough? > >As to the software, that is my point. Someone needs to do that... do I >have to do it all? No, there is noforth from the Dutch Forth chapter. http://home.hccnet.nl/anij/nof/noforth.html http://www.forth.hcc.nl/ --> werkgroepen --> MSP The basic stuff is in English. We are working on translations, in principle the Dutch Forth Chapters website is bilingual. It is a Forth in the series of meta compiled single board Forths. It is a considerable improvement over 4E4th, because programs are compiled to flash always, such that substantial programs can be loaded. > >Rick
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