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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #55085 > unrolled thread

The Wikipedia article on Forth

Started byjim <njbetts@gmail.com>
First post2017-02-24 15:05 -0800
Last post2017-02-27 01:21 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 189 — 21 participants

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Contents

  The Wikipedia article on Forth jim <njbetts@gmail.com> - 2017-02-24 15:05 -0800
    The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-24 15:14 -0800
      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-24 23:38 -0800
      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-02-25 04:51 -0600
      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-25 13:00 +0100
        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-26 14:29 +1100
          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-26 09:30 +0000
            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 02:44 -0800
              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 03:12 -0800
                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 03:25 -0800
              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-26 14:00 -0800
                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 14:32 -0800
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-26 22:58 +0000
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 15:29 -0800
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 21:57 -0500
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 19:17 -0800
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 22:21 -0500
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-26 15:41 -0800
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-26 14:46 -1000
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-26 17:08 -0800
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-26 15:18 -1000
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 14:20 -0800
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 17:47 -0500
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 15:16 -0800
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 19:04 -0500
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 21:52 -0800
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 01:12 -0500
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:33 -0800
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 19:23 -0500
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 08:04 -0800
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-27 18:54 -0600
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:17 -0800
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-28 03:50 -0800
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:28 -0800
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-28 13:59 -0800
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-01 08:25 -0800
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-27 23:00 -0800
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-28 11:51 +0100
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 05:19 -0800
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 19:34 -0500
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:42 -0800
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-10 10:16 +1100
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 18:21 -0500
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-09 23:44 +0000
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-09 19:55 -0500
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-10 11:24 -0800
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-10 13:38 -0800
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-11 12:08 +0000
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-09 16:34 -1000
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-09 22:43 -0800
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-11 15:23 +1100
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-10 21:17 +1100
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-11 12:06 +0000
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-12 05:32 -0500
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-12 11:17 +0000
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-12 13:18 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-12 14:59 +0000
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-12 15:00 -0400
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-13 10:43 +1100
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-13 07:57 +0000
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-13 10:26 +0000
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-10 03:27 -0600
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-10 08:47 -1000
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-11 01:57 -0600
            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 10:00 -0800
              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-26 18:32 +0000
                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 11:52 -0800
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-26 20:23 +0000
              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 11:21 -0800
                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-26 19:41 +0000
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 11:55 -0800
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-26 20:14 +0000
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 12:37 -0800
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 14:26 -0800
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-27 14:10 +1100
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 19:43 -0800
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-02-27 04:13 -0600
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 14:31 -0800
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-02-28 03:53 -0600
            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-27 13:15 +1100
              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 02:22 -0800
                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-27 15:52 -1000
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-28 14:44 +1100
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-02-27 22:55 -0800
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-04 21:38 +1100
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 06:11 -0500
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-04 12:21 +0000
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 13:27 -0500
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-03-05 08:50 -0800
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 15:12 +0000
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-05 18:25 +1100
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 02:38 -0500
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-07 18:20 +1100
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 02:45 -0500
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-07 08:54 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 04:42 -0500
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-07 04:06 -0600
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@nothishetnet.nl> - 2017-03-07 13:02 +0100
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-08 18:43 +1100
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-07 22:04 -1000
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-08 19:49 +1100
                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 19:02 -0500
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 10:06 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 03:35 -0500
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 13:41 +0000
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-08 15:29 +0100
                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-08 15:10 +0000
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-07 08:31 +0000
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-03-11 22:03 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-11 22:56 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-12 05:36 -0500
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-03-12 15:14 +0000
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 19:46 -0700
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-04 12:09 +0000
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth alex@rivadpm.com - 2017-03-05 15:28 -0800
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-05 22:05 +0000
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth julian.fondren@endurance.com - 2017-03-04 07:23 -0800
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-03-11 22:11 +0000
                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-04 07:25 -0800
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-05 19:10 +1100
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-05 04:27 -0500
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-05 18:24 -0800
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-07 18:16 +1100
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-03-07 11:35 +0000
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-07 17:13 -1000
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-08 19:10 +1100
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 03:38 -0500
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 10:18 +0000
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-03-11 22:41 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-11 16:50 -1000
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-12 09:56 +0000
                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-12 14:31 -1000
                                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-03-15 23:54 +0000
                                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 19:00 -0700
                                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 21:27 -0700
                                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 21:39 -0700
                                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 22:13 -0700
                                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-03-16 10:20 +0000
                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 19:42 -0700
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 19:39 -0700
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-12 05:48 -0500
                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 01:26 -0800
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 05:33 -0500
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-06 04:33 -0600
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-06 17:16 +0000
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-06 12:28 -0600
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 11:10 -0800
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 11:12 -0800
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 15:22 -0500
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-06 12:28 -0800
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-07 02:51 -0600
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-07 13:13 +0000
                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 14:50 -0500
                                          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 12:06 -0800
                                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-07 16:00 -0500
                                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth julian.fondren@endurance.com - 2017-03-07 13:18 -0800
                                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 00:16 +0000
                                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-08 03:04 -0600
                                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 09:52 +0000
                                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-08 05:09 -0600
                                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-08 14:05 +0000
                                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-08 12:05 -0600
                                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-08 03:00 -0600
                                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-03-11 22:53 +0000
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-03-11 23:19 +0000
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-11 17:01 -1000
                                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-12 10:12 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-12 07:02 -0500
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-12 12:43 +0000
                                        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-12 12:28 -0500
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-12 16:29 +0100
                                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-12 16:16 +0000
                                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-12 21:42 +0000
                            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-08 19:13 +1100
                              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-08 01:33 -0800
                                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-10 10:37 +1100
                      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-04 18:35 -0800
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-27 23:12 -0800
              Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-27 13:13 +0000
                Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-27 23:28 -0800
                  Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-28 07:49 +0000
                    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-28 03:32 -0500
    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-02-25 11:55 +1100
    Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-02-24 22:14 -1000
      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@nothishetnet.nl> - 2017-02-26 15:15 +0100
      Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-26 20:02 -0800
        Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-26 23:08 -0500
          Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-02-26 23:27 -0600
            Re: The Wikipedia article on Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-27 01:21 -0500

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#55167

FromMark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com>
Date2017-02-27 02:22 -0800
Message-ID<81b41cb1-d3e1-4b75-aa86-07c542f58355@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55143
On Monday, 27 February 2017 02:13:32 UTC, HAA  wrote:
> Alex wrote:
> > On 2/26/2017 03:29, HAA wrote:
> > > Albert van der Horst wrote:
> > >> In article <80bac9cc-dba0-430a-9a09-9d478e1e8f9f@googlegroups.com>,
> > >> Mark Wills  <markwills1970@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> Who are the guardian angels? Anyone here?
> > >>> My experience with Wikipedia has not been good. In my experience the subjects
> > >>> in which I had knowledge and experience were 'guarded' by what can
> > >>> only be described as zealots who think they know better than everyone
> > >>> else.
> > >>
> > >> Please restrict to 72 char's.
> > >>
> > >> You mean you contributed something important, then it was subsequently
> > >> deleted by a wikibobo?
> > >> Yes that can be a problem, but let it not deter you.
> > >> To be honest the times that happened to me, the contribution was a bit
> > >> dubious.
> > >>
> > >> Groetjes Albert
> > >
> > > Scrutiny is needed else the result is ignorant or biased statements e.g.
> > >
> > > "... de facto standards FORTH-79 and FORTH-83 ... were unified by ANSI in 1994"
> > >
> > > In mentioning standards as part of Forth's history, is it not incumbent to
> > > mention their contentiousness in a language designed to be user-alterable.
> > >
> > > Chuck Moore: "It is impossible for one version of Forth to subsume all possible
> > > opportunities.  Forth is larger than the standard."
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Chuck Moore actually said: "It is impossible for one version of Forth to
> > subsume all possible opportunities.  Forth is larger than the standard.
> > *I think ANS Forth will become the dominant dialect.*" (my emphasis).
> >
> > And: "I think an ANSI standard is relevant now, so that you can have a
> > program written on one personal computer and run it on another... The
> > standard as a documentation and communication language is a laudable
> > goal...a useful tool that we've never had."
> 
> It was a farewell speech given in apology for having walked out on the ANS TC.
> He made it as gracious as possible.  In the years since Chuck hasn't minced
> words.  ANS was the latest but it's all standards he has a problem with:
> 
> "I distrust formal representations. For example, the ANSII Forth standard does
> not describe Forth, but a language with the same name."
> 
> The Wikipedia article would have everyone believe otherwise.

Reading the speech/document, I come away with the impression that as much
as I admire him, and as much as he seems to be a very pleasant person on
a personal level, I think he must have been a very difficult person to work
with!

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#55223

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2017-02-27 15:52 -1000
Message-ID<LMudnV1-mIhJSinFnZ2dnUU7-LnNnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#55167
On 2/27/17 12:22 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Monday, 27 February 2017 02:13:32 UTC, HAA  wrote:
>> Alex wrote:
>>> On 2/26/2017 03:29, HAA wrote:
>>>> Albert van der Horst wrote:
>>>>> In article <80bac9cc-dba0-430a-9a09-9d478e1e8f9f@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> Mark Wills  <markwills1970@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Who are the guardian angels? Anyone here?
>>>>>> My experience with Wikipedia has not been good. In my experience the subjects
>>>>>> in which I had knowledge and experience were 'guarded' by what can
>>>>>> only be described as zealots who think they know better than everyone
>>>>>> else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please restrict to 72 char's.
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean you contributed something important, then it was subsequently
>>>>> deleted by a wikibobo?
>>>>> Yes that can be a problem, but let it not deter you.
>>>>> To be honest the times that happened to me, the contribution was a bit
>>>>> dubious.
>>>>>
>>>>> Groetjes Albert
>>>>
>>>> Scrutiny is needed else the result is ignorant or biased statements e.g.
>>>>
>>>> "... de facto standards FORTH-79 and FORTH-83 ... were unified by ANSI in 1994"
>>>>
>>>> In mentioning standards as part of Forth's history, is it not incumbent to
>>>> mention their contentiousness in a language designed to be user-alterable.
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Moore: "It is impossible for one version of Forth to subsume all possible
>>>> opportunities.  Forth is larger than the standard."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chuck Moore actually said: "It is impossible for one version of Forth to
>>> subsume all possible opportunities.  Forth is larger than the standard.
>>> *I think ANS Forth will become the dominant dialect.*" (my emphasis).
>>>
>>> And: "I think an ANSI standard is relevant now, so that you can have a
>>> program written on one personal computer and run it on another... The
>>> standard as a documentation and communication language is a laudable
>>> goal...a useful tool that we've never had."
>>
>> It was a farewell speech given in apology for having walked out on the ANS TC.
>> He made it as gracious as possible.  In the years since Chuck hasn't minced
>> words.  ANS was the latest but it's all standards he has a problem with:
>>
>> "I distrust formal representations. For example, the ANSII Forth standard does
>> not describe Forth, but a language with the same name."
>>
>> The Wikipedia article would have everyone believe otherwise.
>
> Reading the speech/document, I come away with the impression that as much
> as I admire him, and as much as he seems to be a very pleasant person on
> a personal level, I think he must have been a very difficult person to work
> with!

I suspect all geniuses are, to some extent. Indeed, Chuck was wonderful 
in some respects and difficult in others. He had a unique POV. He could 
never bring himself to reuse any code, for example: he treasured his 
past code (e.g., math functions, graphics package, etc.) but 
continuously rewrote them. Most of us couldn't live/work that way. And 
we very much want to be able to share code and reuse it.

So, there's no way that any standard could ever work for Chuck, but that 
doesn't mean a standard isn't extremely valuable for the Forth community 
that wants to reuse and share code, and for managers who want a 
reasonably stable language for their products.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
Elizabeth R. Conklin
FORTH, Inc.
6080 Center Drive, Suite 600
Los Angeles, CA  90045
USA

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#55224

From"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com>
Date2017-02-28 14:44 +1100
Message-ID<o92rio$1rhf$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55223
Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> ...
> So, there's no way that any standard could ever work for Chuck, but that
> doesn't mean a standard isn't extremely valuable for the Forth community
> that wants to reuse and share code, and for managers who want a
> reasonably stable language for their products.
>
> Cheers,
> Elizabeth

Forth has had many years to find out whether standards work.  Does it even
have a standard when vendors on the current TC refuse to implement it?

You talk about 'what the Forth community wants'.  If it wanted a standard then
I'd expect Forth Inc users to be banging on the door demanding 200x be
implemented.  I'd expect them to demand Forth Inc implement f/p functions
according to ANS.  Many years have passed and nothing has changed.  If
the extent of 'the Forth community' is comp.lang.forth inhabitants whom you
regularly chastise for wasting their time and show no interest in responding
to 200x CFV's, then I'd say 'the Forth community' doesn't want a standard.
It appears quite content to talk Forth and engage in 'pie in the sky' dreaming.


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#55230

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2017-02-27 22:55 -0800
Message-ID<87wpcaiz3i.fsf@nightsong.com>
In reply to#55224
"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
> You talk about 'what the Forth community wants'.  If it wanted a
> standard then I'd expect Forth Inc users to be banging on the door
> demanding 200x be implemented.

Is 200x a standard rather than a draft of one?  Is the Forth community
satisfied that it already has a standard (ANS) with 200x being a
refinement, like more recent iterations of the C standard?

The C standard is important and influential, but people mostly follow
C99 even though C11 is a thing.  There's an update in the works but not
that many users are really clamoring for it.

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#55402

From"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com>
Date2017-03-04 21:38 +1100
Message-ID<o9e5ai$qgs$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55230
Paul Rubin wrote:
> "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
> > You talk about 'what the Forth community wants'.  If it wanted a
> > standard then I'd expect Forth Inc users to be banging on the door
> > demanding 200x be implemented.
>
> Is 200x a standard rather than a draft of one?  Is the Forth community
> satisfied that it already has a standard (ANS) with 200x being a
> refinement, like more recent iterations of the C standard?
>
> The C standard is important and influential, but people mostly follow
> C99 even though C11 is a thing.  There's an update in the works but not
> that many users are really clamoring for it.

You're suggesting there are Standard supporters who are happy to stay
with ANS?  Maybe, but it's hard finding anyone to admit it.

There's a pdf entitled "Forth Standard 2012".  Nothing to indicate it is a
draft, so I assume it is an official standard and supporters are using it now.




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#55403

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-03-04 06:11 -0500
Message-ID<o9e78i$5a0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55402
On 3/4/2017 5:38 AM, HAA wrote:
> Paul Rubin wrote:
>> "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
>>> You talk about 'what the Forth community wants'.  If it wanted a
>>> standard then I'd expect Forth Inc users to be banging on the door
>>> demanding 200x be implemented.
>>
>> Is 200x a standard rather than a draft of one?  Is the Forth community
>> satisfied that it already has a standard (ANS) with 200x being a
>> refinement, like more recent iterations of the C standard?
>>
>> The C standard is important and influential, but people mostly follow
>> C99 even though C11 is a thing.  There's an update in the works but not
>> that many users are really clamoring for it.
>
> You're suggesting there are Standard supporters who are happy to stay
> with ANS?  Maybe, but it's hard finding anyone to admit it.
>
> There's a pdf entitled "Forth Standard 2012".  Nothing to indicate it is a
> draft, so I assume it is an official standard and supporters are using it now.

Is it the one with this on the title page?

"Notice: Status of this Document
This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such, 
this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may 
modify this document during the course of its work."

-- 

Rick C

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#55405

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2017-03-04 12:21 +0000
Message-ID<2017Mar4.132137@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#55403
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>Is it the one with this on the title page?
>
>"Notice: Status of this Document
>This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such, 
>this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may 
>modify this document during the course of its work."

That may explain the confusion.  I think that's there for some reason
having to do with ANSI.  Nonetheless, the document
<http://www.forth200x.org/documents/forth-2012.pdf> is final as far as
the committee is concerned, and we are working on the next standard
after Forth-2012.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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#55409

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-03-04 13:27 -0500
Message-ID<o9f0qo$864$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55405
On 3/4/2017 7:21 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> Is it the one with this on the title page?
>>
>> "Notice: Status of this Document
>> This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such,
>> this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may
>> modify this document during the course of its work."
>
> That may explain the confusion.  I think that's there for some reason
> having to do with ANSI.  Nonetheless, the document
> <http://www.forth200x.org/documents/forth-2012.pdf> is final as far as
> the committee is concerned, and we are working on the next standard
> after Forth-2012.

Certainly I am not on the committee, but my understanding is this 
document is *not* the final draft.  There are supposed to be some very 
minor formatting issues that were straightened out in the final release.

So while the Forth-2012 standard may be finalized, this is not the 
*exact* document that effort produced.

-- 

Rick C

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#55427

FromJUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com>
Date2017-03-05 08:50 -0800
Message-ID<92e0368a-04e9-42e9-b7e7-3501b049ca90@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#55405
On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 12:29:28 PM UTC, Anton Ertl wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> >Is it the one with this on the title page?
> >
> >"Notice: Status of this Document
> >This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such, 
> >this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may 
> >modify this document during the course of its work."
> 
> That may explain the confusion.  I think that's there for some reason
> having to do with ANSI.  Nonetheless, the document
> <http://www.forth200x.org/documents/forth-2012.pdf> is final as far as
> the committee is concerned, and we are working on the next standard
> after Forth-2012.
> 
> - anton
> -- 
> M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
> comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
>      New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
>    EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

Anton, are some the non-included parts documented at https://forth-standard.org/standard/words

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#55551

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2017-03-08 15:12 +0000
Message-ID<2017Mar8.161236@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#55427
JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> writes:
>On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 12:29:28 PM UTC, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> <http://www.forth200x.org/documents/forth-2012.pdf> is final as far as
>> the committee is concerned, and we are working on the next standard
>> after Forth-2012.
...
>Anton, are some the non-included parts documented at https://forth-standard.org/standard/words

I am not sure what you are referring to.

1) The stuff that we have changed/added after Forth-2012 is not at the
https://forth-standard.org/standard/words>.  You can find it at
<http://www.forth200x.org/>.  At some point we will make another
release that will include the things we will have decided by that
time.

2) The Forth-2012 document in PDF form
<http://www.forth200x.org/documents/forth-2012.pdf> does not include
the reference implementations and tests; these parts are included in
<https://forth-standard.org/standard/words>.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

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#55420

From"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com>
Date2017-03-05 18:25 +1100
Message-ID<o9gf2e$c0l$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55403
rickman wrote:
> On 3/4/2017 5:38 AM, HAA wrote:
> > Paul Rubin wrote:
> >> "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
> >>> You talk about 'what the Forth community wants'.  If it wanted a
> >>> standard then I'd expect Forth Inc users to be banging on the door
> >>> demanding 200x be implemented.
> >>
> >> Is 200x a standard rather than a draft of one?  Is the Forth community
> >> satisfied that it already has a standard (ANS) with 200x being a
> >> refinement, like more recent iterations of the C standard?
> >>
> >> The C standard is important and influential, but people mostly follow
> >> C99 even though C11 is a thing.  There's an update in the works but not
> >> that many users are really clamoring for it.
> >
> > You're suggesting there are Standard supporters who are happy to stay
> > with ANS?  Maybe, but it's hard finding anyone to admit it.
> >
> > There's a pdf entitled "Forth Standard 2012".  Nothing to indicate it is a
> > draft, so I assume it is an official standard and supporters are using it now.
>
> Is it the one with this on the title page?
>
> "Notice: Status of this Document
> This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such,
> this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may
> modify this document during the course of its work."

It's not present on the version I have which just has title and release date
(10 Nov 2014) on title page.  I searched the pdf for the word "draft" before
posting just to make sure.  None was found.  I assume the notice you quote
was added sometime later.


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#55421

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-03-05 02:38 -0500
Message-ID<o9gf6o$as2$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55420
On 3/5/2017 2:25 AM, HAA wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>> On 3/4/2017 5:38 AM, HAA wrote:
>>> Paul Rubin wrote:
>>>> "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
>>>>> You talk about 'what the Forth community wants'.  If it wanted a
>>>>> standard then I'd expect Forth Inc users to be banging on the door
>>>>> demanding 200x be implemented.
>>>>
>>>> Is 200x a standard rather than a draft of one?  Is the Forth community
>>>> satisfied that it already has a standard (ANS) with 200x being a
>>>> refinement, like more recent iterations of the C standard?
>>>>
>>>> The C standard is important and influential, but people mostly follow
>>>> C99 even though C11 is a thing.  There's an update in the works but not
>>>> that many users are really clamoring for it.
>>>
>>> You're suggesting there are Standard supporters who are happy to stay
>>> with ANS?  Maybe, but it's hard finding anyone to admit it.
>>>
>>> There's a pdf entitled "Forth Standard 2012".  Nothing to indicate it is a
>>> draft, so I assume it is an official standard and supporters are using it now.
>>
>> Is it the one with this on the title page?
>>
>> "Notice: Status of this Document
>> This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such,
>> this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may
>> modify this document during the course of its work."
>
> It's not present on the version I have which just has title and release date
> (10 Nov 2014) on title page.  I searched the pdf for the word "draft" before
> posting just to make sure.  None was found.  I assume the notice you quote
> was added sometime later.

A 2012 standard released in 2014?  This document is dated 13 th 
November, 2013.

-- 

Rick C

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#55483

From"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com>
Date2017-03-07 18:20 +1100
Message-ID<o9lmqs$16ii$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55421
rickman wrote:
> On 3/5/2017 2:25 AM, HAA wrote:
> > rickman wrote:
> >> On 3/4/2017 5:38 AM, HAA wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> There's a pdf entitled "Forth Standard 2012".  Nothing to indicate it is a
> >>> draft, so I assume it is an official standard and supporters are using it now.
> >>
> >> Is it the one with this on the title page?
> >>
> >> "Notice: Status of this Document
> >> This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such,
> >> this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may
> >> modify this document during the course of its work."
> >
> > It's not present on the version I have which just has title and release date
> > (10 Nov 2014) on title page.  I searched the pdf for the word "draft" before
> > posting just to make sure.  None was found.  I assume the notice you quote
> > was added sometime later.
>
> A 2012 standard released in 2014?  This document is dated 13 th
> November, 2013.

The current pdf says 10 Nov 2014.  Either way, release date is unimportant.
What will interest standard supporters is whether there exists a 'Forth 2012
Standard' they may use and quote.  The notice above which appears on the
current pdf would effectively exclude it as a standard.

rickman wrote:
> On 3/5/2017 3:10 AM, HAA wrote:
> > ...
> > Asking is pointless when someone doesn't want to answer.  Better to look
> > at what they do (or in this case, don't).  I've suggested on several occasions
> > Forth Inc is not committed to 200x and nobody has challenged it.
>
> Maybe because no one cares???

200x may care because the political reality is that without Forth Inc behind it,
they won't have a standard.


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#55484

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-03-07 02:45 -0500
Message-ID<o9lo9d$lth$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55483
On 3/7/2017 2:20 AM, HAA wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>> On 3/5/2017 2:25 AM, HAA wrote:
>>> rickman wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/2017 5:38 AM, HAA wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> There's a pdf entitled "Forth Standard 2012".  Nothing to indicate it is a
>>>>> draft, so I assume it is an official standard and supporters are using it now.
>>>>
>>>> Is it the one with this on the title page?
>>>>
>>>> "Notice: Status of this Document
>>>> This is a draft proposed Standard to replace ANSI X3.215-1994. As such,
>>>> this is not a completed standard.  The Standardisation Committee may
>>>> modify this document during the course of its work."
>>>
>>> It's not present on the version I have which just has title and release date
>>> (10 Nov 2014) on title page.  I searched the pdf for the word "draft" before
>>> posting just to make sure.  None was found.  I assume the notice you quote
>>> was added sometime later.
>>
>> A 2012 standard released in 2014?  This document is dated 13 th
>> November, 2013.
>
> The current pdf says 10 Nov 2014.  Either way, release date is unimportant.
> What will interest standard supporters is whether there exists a 'Forth 2012
> Standard' they may use and quote.  The notice above which appears on the
> current pdf would effectively exclude it as a standard.

That's funny, it works for me.


> rickman wrote:
>> On 3/5/2017 3:10 AM, HAA wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Asking is pointless when someone doesn't want to answer.  Better to look
>>> at what they do (or in this case, don't).  I've suggested on several occasions
>>> Forth Inc is not committed to 200x and nobody has challenged it.
>>
>> Maybe because no one cares???
>
> 200x may care because the political reality is that without Forth Inc behind it,
> they won't have a standard.

Why?  Without Forth Inc involved it will be a standard just the same. 
Are you suggesting no one but Forth Inc cares enough to be involved? 
IEEE doesn't care if Forth, Inc is involved I think.

-- 

Rick C

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#55487

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2017-03-07 08:54 +0000
Message-ID<2017Mar7.095451@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#55484
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>On 3/7/2017 2:20 AM, HAA wrote:
>> rickman wrote:
>>> A 2012 standard released in 2014?

At some point we say that we do a release.  That point was in 2012.
There were still some things added in 2013, then there was the public
review period (my guess is that your document from 2013 was the
version for the public review), and in 2014 the release was finished.

Maybe we should use release numbers (like Java) that are not reminding
anybody of years.  E.g., the next release could be Forth 6.0, or so:-).

>> 200x may care because the political reality is that without Forth Inc behind it,
>> they won't have a standard.
>
>Why?  Without Forth Inc involved it will be a standard just the same. 

HAA has a valid point: The value of a standard is in how widely it is
accepted; in particular, the value of a standard to programmers is in
how widely systems implement it.

Anyway, when I asked Leon Wagner about this, he wrote that SwiftForth
will implement more Forth-2012 features in time.  I guess if more
Forth, Inc. customers asked for these features, that might speed up
the process.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#55489

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2017-03-07 04:42 -0500
Message-ID<o9lv3v$ar1$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#55487
On 3/7/2017 3:54 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/7/2017 2:20 AM, HAA wrote:
>>> rickman wrote:
>>>> A 2012 standard released in 2014?
>
> At some point we say that we do a release.  That point was in 2012.
> There were still some things added in 2013, then there was the public
> review period (my guess is that your document from 2013 was the
> version for the public review), and in 2014 the release was finished.
>
> Maybe we should use release numbers (like Java) that are not reminding
> anybody of years.  E.g., the next release could be Forth 6.0, or so:-).
>
>>> 200x may care because the political reality is that without Forth Inc behind it,
>>> they won't have a standard.
>>
>> Why?  Without Forth Inc involved it will be a standard just the same.
>
> HAA has a valid point: The value of a standard is in how widely it is
> accepted; in particular, the value of a standard to programmers is in
> how widely systems implement it.
>
> Anyway, when I asked Leon Wagner about this, he wrote that SwiftForth
> will implement more Forth-2012 features in time.  I guess if more
> Forth, Inc. customers asked for these features, that might speed up
> the process.

I think it is better adopted than VHDL-2008 where I don't think any 
vendors implement the full standard still.

-- 

Rick C

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#55490

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2017-03-07 04:06 -0600
Message-ID<hOudnQPeUOKDGyPFnZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#55489
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/7/2017 3:54 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, when I asked Leon Wagner about this, he wrote that SwiftForth
>> will implement more Forth-2012 features in time.  I guess if more
>> Forth, Inc. customers asked for these features, that might speed up
>> the process.
> 
> I think it is better adopted than VHDL-2008 where I don't think any 
> vendors implement the full standard still.

And sometimes a feature which no-one wants gets included in a
standard: for example, export in C++98.  The right thing to do then is
not support it and campaign for it to be removed.

Andrew.

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#55495

FromRoelf Toxopeus <rt4all@nothishetnet.nl>
Date2017-03-07 13:02 +0100
Message-ID<58bea177$0$4232$e4fe514c@textnews.kpn.nl>
In reply to#55487
On 07/03/17 09:54, Anton Ertl wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 3/7/2017 2:20 AM, HAA wrote:
>>> rickman wrote:
>>>> A 2012 standard released in 2014?
>
> At some point we say that we do a release.  That point was in 2012.
> There were still some things added in 2013, then there was the public
> review period (my guess is that your document from 2013 was the
> version for the public review), and in 2014 the release was finished.
>
> Maybe we should use release numbers (like Java) that are not reminding
> anybody of years.  E.g., the next release could be Forth 6.0, or so:-).
>
>>> 200x may care because the political reality is that without Forth Inc behind it,
>>> they won't have a standard.
>>
>> Why?  Without Forth Inc involved it will be a standard just the same.
>
> HAA has a valid point: The value of a standard is in how widely it is
> accepted; in particular, the value of a standard to programmers is in
> how widely systems implement it.
>
> Anyway, when I asked Leon Wagner about this, he wrote that SwiftForth
> will implement more Forth-2012 features in time.  I guess if more
> Forth, Inc. customers asked for these features, that might speed up
> the process.

As a Forth, Inc. customer, and very regular SwiftForth user, they're the
last things I would request.
Can think of much more pressing matters to spend their precious time, 
energy, expertise and skills on. Similar for VFX.

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#55524

From"HAA" <someone@microsoft.com>
Date2017-03-08 18:43 +1100
Message-ID<o9od9f$3cv$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#55484
rickman wrote:
> On 3/7/2017 2:20 AM, HAA wrote:
> > ...
> > The current pdf says 10 Nov 2014.  Either way, release date is unimportant.
> > What will interest standard supporters is whether there exists a 'Forth 2012
> > Standard' they may use and quote.  The notice above which appears on the
> > current pdf would effectively exclude it as a standard.
>
> That's funny, it works for me.

It won't work for those expecting a standard.  By definition a standard is frozen
and not subject to change.  That's the point of them.


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#55525

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2017-03-07 22:04 -1000
Message-ID<FIqdnUOtOMmSJiLFnZ2dnUU7-UHNnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#55524
On 3/7/17 9:43 PM, HAA wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>> On 3/7/2017 2:20 AM, HAA wrote:
>>> ...
>>> The current pdf says 10 Nov 2014.  Either way, release date is unimportant.
>>> What will interest standard supporters is whether there exists a 'Forth 2012
>>> Standard' they may use and quote.  The notice above which appears on the
>>> current pdf would effectively exclude it as a standard.
>>
>> That's funny, it works for me.
>
> It won't work for those expecting a standard.  By definition a standard is frozen
> and not subject to change.  That's the point of them.

Not according to ANSI, which *requires* that standards be either 
reaffirmed or modified at least every 5 years. I think other standards 
organizations have similar rules. But, technically, the 200x group 
should call Forth 2012 the doc released under that name, and if there 
are any mods the result should be Draft 20xx Standard. That way people 
can say "2012 compatible" and mean something.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
Elizabeth R. Conklin
FORTH, Inc.
6080 Center Drive, Suite 600
Los Angeles, CA  90045
USA

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