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Wiki reader

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  Wiki reader Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 12:02 -0700
    Re: Wiki reader Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 12:10 -0700
      Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 13:28 -0400
        Re: Wiki reader Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 20:09 -0700
          Re: Wiki reader paulhidecs@gmail.com - 2012-10-12 03:57 -0700
            Re: Wiki reader Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 05:35 -0700
              Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 23:17 +0100
            Re: Wiki reader Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 05:36 -0700
            Re: Wiki reader Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-12 05:38 -0700
              Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:37 -0400
                Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 19:13 -0400
                  Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-17 18:36 +0100
                    Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 13:48 -0400
                      Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 18:35 +0100
                        Re: Wiki reader Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2012-10-18 18:01 +0000
                          Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 19:37 +0100
                            Re: Wiki reader Hannu Vuolasaho <hannu.vuolasaho@nospam.tut.fi.invalid> - 2012-10-19 08:43 +0000
                        Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 15:21 -0400
                          Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 21:37 +0100
                            Re: Wiki reader Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 13:48 -0700
                              Re: Wiki reader visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-18 16:37 -0700
                                Re: Wiki reader visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-18 16:50 -0700
                                  Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 20:13 -0400
                                    Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-19 19:28 +0100
                                      Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 17:53 -0400
                                        Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-19 23:24 +0100
                                          Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 18:39 -0400
                                          Re: Wiki reader rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 18:51 -0400
                                            Re: Wiki reader "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-20 09:48 +0100
                                              Re: Wiki reader Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-20 02:59 -0700
                                                Re: Wiki reader visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-20 10:08 -0700
    Re: Wiki reader Ian Osgood <iano@quirkster.com> - 2012-10-20 11:21 -0700
      Re: Wiki reader visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-20 11:55 -0700

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#16464

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:48:11 PM UTC-4, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Oct 18, 9:38 pm, "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk> wrote: > rickman wrote: > > Still, I'd like to see what you end up with.  I guess there is some > > advantage to not having to open the case, but are you sure you can > > update the SD card via the RS-232 port? > > I'll put details up somewhere when I get some of it more together. I'll > probably make some arrangements for the TTL levels as well but I will need > the RS232 at near proper levels for quite a lot of my systems. At least then > I could add standard converters for RS485 if I need that aspect. > > As for updating the SD card, I would hope a little coding could provide an > easy way to do that across the serial interface. From what I can see of > mine, the access to the SD card does not seem to be anywhere around the > outside of the casing. The only holes under the battery cover that I could > see are where the cover latch locates and the debug port (under a sticky > patch). Might end up having to take the bottom plate off to have a look but > the notes suggest that this is not as easy as it may seem because of the > case construction tending to keep the halves firmly together. > > -- > ******************************************************************** > Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk> > Forth based HIDECS Consultancy > Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 > Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 > Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. > ******************************************************************** Place the unit on the table, screen facing down. Remove battery cover and remove batteries Run your finger around the top of the battery compartment opening. You should feel the edge of the SD card under your finger. Mark

Surprise, surprise!
Information about the WikiReader is available at Wikipedia!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikireader - including price, distributor, and links like http://thewikireader.com/#how-do-i-update-wikireaders-memory-card with pictures about updating the WikiReader’s memory card.

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#16466

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 7:37:34 PM UTC-4, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:48:11 PM UTC-4, Mark Wills wrote: > On Oct 18, 9:38 pm, "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk> wrote: > rickman wrote: > > Still, I'd like to see what you end up with.  I guess there is some > > advantage to not having to open the case, but are you sure you can > > update the SD card via the RS-232 port? > > I'll put details up somewhere when I get some of it more together. I'll > probably make some arrangements for the TTL levels as well but I will need > the RS232 at near proper levels for quite a lot of my systems. At least then > I could add standard converters for RS485 if I need that aspect. > > As for updating the SD card, I would hope a little coding could provide an > easy way to do that across the serial interface. From what I can see of > mine, the access to the SD card does not seem to be anywhere around the > outside of the casing. The only holes under the battery cover that I could > see are where the cover latch locates and the debug port (under a sticky > patch). Might end up having to take the bottom plate off to have a look but > the notes suggest that this is not as easy as it may seem because of the > case construction tending to keep the halves firmly together. > > -- > ******************************************************************** > Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk> > Forth based HIDECS Consultancy > Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 > Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 > Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. > ******************************************************************** Place the unit on the table, screen facing down. Remove battery cover and remove batteries Run your finger around the top of the battery compartment opening. You should feel the edge of the SD card under your finger. Mark Surprise, surprise! Information about the WikiReader is available at Wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikireader - including price, distributor, and links like http://thewikireader.com/#how-do-i-update-wikireaders-memory-card with pictures about updating the WikiReader’s memory card.

The serial Interface is set to 19200 8N1
Source: https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/wiki/Hardware-Specifications
Contains the debug connector pinning - 8 pads under a seal in the battery compartment, too.

Choosing the right SD card seems to be important. Some SD cards don't work:
https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/wiki/Sd-cards

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#16467

On 10/18/2012 7:50 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2012 7:37:34 PM UTC-4, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:48:11 PM UTC-4, Mark Wills wrote:>  On Oct 18, 9:38 pm, "Paul E. Bennett"<Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>  wrote:>  rickman wrote:>  >  Still, I'd like to see what you end up with.  I guess there is some>  >  advantage to not having to open the case, but are you sure you can>  >  update the SD card via the RS-232 port?>  >  I'll put details up somewhere when I get some of it more together. I'll>  probably make some arrangements for the TTL levels as well but I will need>  the RS232 at near proper levels for quite a lot of my systems. At least then>  I could add standard converters for RS485 if I need that aspect.>  >  As for updating the SD card, I would hope a little coding could provide an>  easy way to do that across the serial interface. From what I can see of>  mine, the access to the SD card does not seem to be anywhere around the>  outside of the casing. The only holes under the battery cover that I could>  see are where the cover latch locate
s and the debug port (under a sticky>  patch). Might end up having to take the bottom plate off to have a look but>  the notes suggest that this is not as easy as it may seem because of the>  case construction tending to keep the halves firmly together.>  >  -- >  ********************************************************************>  Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>  >  Forth based HIDECS Consultancy>  Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972>  Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979>  Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..>  ******************************************************************** Place the unit on the table, screen facing down. Remove battery cover and remove batteries Run your finger around the top of the battery compartment opening. You should feel the edge of the SD card under your finger. Mark Surprise, surprise! Information about the WikiReader is available at Wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikireader - including price, dist
ributor, and links like http://thewikireader.com/#how-do-i-update-wikireaders-memory-card with pictures about updating the WikiReader’s memory card.
>
> The serial Interface is set to 19200 8N1
> Source: https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/wiki/Hardware-Specifications
> Contains the debug connector pinning - 8 pads under a seal in the battery compartment, too.
>
> Choosing the right SD card seems to be important. Some SD cards don't work:
> https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/wiki/Sd-cards

Yes, they give you the pin out of the pads which you can solder a 
connector to, but they don't show the pads in the context of the unit so 
you don't know the orientation.  Given that two pins are labeled Bat+ 
and Bat- you might be able to ohm them to the battery terminals to get 
it right the first time.

Rick

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#16496

rickman wrote:

Thanks for the hint on the SD card location. In a recess I took to be just 
the view of the battery holder on the PCB. Don't recall a mention in the 
manual that came with it but then I just skimmed that quickly.

> Yes, they give you the pin out of the pads which you can solder a
> connector to, but they don't show the pads in the context of the unit so
> you don't know the orientation.  Given that two pins are labeled Bat+
> and Bat- you might be able to ohm them to the battery terminals to get
> it right the first time.

There are some photos of the PCB which show the silk screen. So I think I 
have it from that. I will do a meter check before I lay out the connections 
though.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#16500

On 10/19/2012 2:28 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>
> Thanks for the hint on the SD card location. In a recess I took to be just
> the view of the battery holder on the PCB. Don't recall a mention in the
> manual that came with it but then I just skimmed that quickly.
>
>> Yes, they give you the pin out of the pads which you can solder a
>> connector to, but they don't show the pads in the context of the unit so
>> you don't know the orientation.  Given that two pins are labeled Bat+
>> and Bat- you might be able to ohm them to the battery terminals to get
>> it right the first time.
>
> There are some photos of the PCB which show the silk screen. So I think I
> have it from that. I will do a meter check before I lay out the connections
> though.

I thought I remembered seeing some detailed photos of the PCB, but I 
can't find them now.  Where did you find them?  We need to start 
accumulating this information someplace central perhaps.

Rick

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#16502

rickman wrote:

> On 10/19/2012 2:28 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:

[%X]

>> There are some photos of the PCB which show the silk screen. So I think I
>> have it from that. I will do a meter check before I lay out the
>> connections though.
> 
> I thought I remembered seeing some detailed photos of the PCB, but I
> can't find them now.  Where did you find them?  We need to start
> accumulating this information someplace central perhaps.

Here:-

<http://wiki.seabright.co.nz/wiki/WikiReader.html>


-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#16503

On 10/19/2012 6:24 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>
>> On 10/19/2012 2:28 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
>
> [%X]
>
>>> There are some photos of the PCB which show the silk screen. So I think I
>>> have it from that. I will do a meter check before I lay out the
>>> connections though.
>>
>> I thought I remembered seeing some detailed photos of the PCB, but I
>> can't find them now.  Where did you find them?  We need to start
>> accumulating this information someplace central perhaps.
>
> Here:-
>
> <http://wiki.seabright.co.nz/wiki/WikiReader.html>


Interesting.  The pads look like they are nail head type things rather 
than just PCB copper.  Is that right?  I wouldn't expect PCB copper to 
be left exposed.

Rick

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#16504

On 10/19/2012 6:24 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
> rickman wrote:
>
>> On 10/19/2012 2:28 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
>
> [%X]
>
>>> There are some photos of the PCB which show the silk screen. So I think I
>>> have it from that. I will do a meter check before I lay out the
>>> connections though.
>>
>> I thought I remembered seeing some detailed photos of the PCB, but I
>> can't find them now.  Where did you find them?  We need to start
>> accumulating this information someplace central perhaps.
>
> Here:-
>
> <http://wiki.seabright.co.nz/wiki/WikiReader.html>
>
>

Thanks.  The image for the base clips doesn't link to the correct larger 
file.  The file is there, the link is wrong.  I see you add links to all 
the photos at the end, so no real problem.

Rick

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#16515

rickman wrote:

> On 10/19/2012 6:24 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:

[%X]

>> Here:-
>>
>> <http://wiki.seabright.co.nz/wiki/WikiReader.html>
> 
> Thanks.  The image for the base clips doesn't link to the correct larger
> file.  The file is there, the link is wrong.  I see you add links to all
> the photos at the end, so no real problem.
 
The link is to a site that is not mine. The pads are gold flashed. The 
spring loaded contacts that I have found have a 1mm diameter gold plated 
multi-faceted head which will make a decent contact with such pads.

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#16516

On Oct 20, 9:49 am, "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> rickman wrote:
> > On 10/19/2012 6:24 PM, Paul E. Bennett wrote:
>
> [%X]
>
> >> Here:-
>
> >> <http://wiki.seabright.co.nz/wiki/WikiReader.html>
>
> > Thanks.  The image for the base clips doesn't link to the correct larger
> > file.  The file is there, the link is wrong.  I see you add links to all
> > the photos at the end, so no real problem.
>
> The link is to a site that is not mine. The pads are gold flashed. The
> spring loaded contacts that I have found have a 1mm diameter gold plated
> multi-faceted head which will make a decent contact with such pads.
>
> --
> ********************************************************************
> Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
> Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
> Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
> ********************************************************************

The whole machine is a little gem, isn't it?!

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#16518

On Saturday, October 20, 2012 5:59:23 AM UTC-4, M.R.W Wills wrote:
> The whole machine is a little gem, isn't it?!

Yes, it is.

I did some research and I found a lot of interesting links, including this special one: 

Go Forth and WikiReadit
4 December 2009, by Ben

He wrote:
There’s something about a product that does one simple thing well. But what really sets the WikiReader apart is that it lasts a year on 2 AAA batteries with no charging. How? The low-power LCD screen, and the tiny microprocessor.

But what’s even cooler, at least for someone who learned to program by dabbling in Forth, is that the device has a built-in Forth interpreter for testing the hardware and running small programs.

I was pleasantly surprised – I know that Forth is good for embedded work on tiny micros, but since the main WikiReader app is written in C, I was curious why they chose Forth for testing and apps. So I asked Christopher Hall, one of the main firmware developers. His reply was very informative, and he’s kindly allowed me to copy it here:

I have written testing programs in several languages, but compiled programs always have the problem of the edit, cross compile, load, and try to debug. Sometimes the platform can run BSD or Linux, and then you can have the full suite of tools on the platform. This is okay if the person doing the initial testing can write programs, but often the test is how to toggle a particular I/O line on/off and see the effect on the rest of the circuit. Then having some kind of scripting on the platform seems the best way to achieve this.
For the initial testing, just start the interpreter REPL and you can start the initial tests. Initially I looked at TCL and Python which I have used before, but they would take far too long to port since they need a lot of Posix system calls which do not exist for this platform.
I also considered Hedgehog, Pico Lisp or perhaps some simple Scheme interpreter but the syntax would probably be too difficult for the hardware engineers to use. Forth is pretty simple syntax and RPN was probably not too difficult for them to learn. Also it was easy to build the Forth interpreter, incrementally adding features until it is now an almost ANSI standard Forth.
Since I added all the device registers the hardware engineers can use commands like the following (I used the same register names as the datasheet):
P0_P0D p?    \ display value of port
1 P0_P0D p!  \ set port to 1While waiting for the main application development I could build tests for items like the LCD and CTP with just a serial connection on the device itself – using cut/paste from Emacs to picocom to upload Forth words. This is much quicker than cross-compiling and swapping SD cards.
The Forth is rather slow in compiling, the dictionary search is quite slow for example, and the indirect threading adds run-time overhead so in its present form it is probably not fast enough for the main reader application, but for quick applications to try things out I find it very convenient.
Also, the first version was hand translated from a version of EForth for Linux before I migrated it to the ANSI standard. (I kept copies in samo-lib/forth/EForthOriginals subdirectory.)

Very neat. If Lisp is the secret weapon for developing web apps, maybe Forth is it for embedded apps. Both are extensible at the language level and both have real macros, but Lisp is high level and Forth is low level.

Carsten commented: "You can write and test a program using a Forth System on your PC (Linux or other OS), then you copy the source on the Micro-SD card in the Wikireader, and start executing. For debugging, you probably want to solder a serial terminal to the wikireader so that you can interactively develop and debug on thw wikireader itself (and not do cross-development, see http://wiki.github.com/wikireader/wikireader/hardware-specifications under “debug-connector”)."

Source: http://blog.brush.co.nz/2009/12/wikireader/


And guess what? It is easy to access Forth programs inside the WikiReader:

The software platform also comes with a FORTH interpreter that can run several small programs that are stored on the SD card. To access these programs, you hold the "random" button down while you turn on the device. It will display a menu of the FORTH programs and allow you to run one of them by tapping it on the touchscreen. The apps that are shipped on the SD card include a simple drawing program and a calculator. There are also a few diagnostic utilities for performing various kinds of tests.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/11/hands-on-openmoko-wikireader-is-simple-appealing/

Here for your convenience some other links which I found, but not sorted:

https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/tree/master/samo-lib/forth/
http://www.mentby.com/christopher-hall/
https://github.com/wikireader/wikireader/wiki/Building-an-image
http://www.rhinocerus.net/forum/lang-forth/606844-wikireader.html
http://gitorious.org/wikireader-ness/wikireader-ness?page=6
http://gitorious.org/wikireader-ness/wikireader-ness/commits/master?page=7
http://elm-chan.org/fsw/ff/00index_e.html

And last, but not least:

How did you learn to program?
5 June 2007, by Ben

He wrote:
I learnt to program for fun at home, and my theory is that this is the best way to learn. I started in seriously when I was about 14 (I couldn’t quite grasp the concepts before then), and began by learning 80x86 assembly language and Forth. I tried to learn C, but for some reason I grokked assembly more quickly. Plus, assembly made it easy to play with the VGA hardware and write cool graphics demos. The joy of the art was setting in.

Mostly my dad taught me, though I also learnt a lot from reading FidoNet groups and from Demoscene coders. After playing with graphics stuff and coding the first 50 lines of about five different games that were going to “change the face of computer gaming”, my first serious project was to write a Forth compiler. I bootstrapped it by writing the core in assembly, then the rest in Forth.

Speaking of which, I really rate learning Forth. It’s probably the earliest language apart from Lisp which is extensible at the language level and has real macros. But it’s much simpler than Lisp. 

The only problem is that it’s so easy to write your own Forth compiler that everyone does that instead of writing good libraries or language extensions.

Source: http://blog.brush.co.nz/2007/06/how-did-you-learn-to-program/

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#16519

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:02:38 PM UTC-7, M.R.W Wills wrote:
> The price of the handheld WikiReader on Amazon has tumbled from the
> 
> 100's of dollars to $14 (in the USA).
> 
> 
> 
> In the UK, it's £20:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pandigital-Handheld-Electronic-Encyclopedia-Wikipedia/dp/B0039NLVB2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1349549948&sr=8-4
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like they're selling the stock out and then that'll be it. If
> 
> anyone is interested in getting one, now might be a good time.
> 
> 
> 
> Note: These machines run Forth. You can place ANS Forth text files on
> 
> the SD card and it will happily compile and run them. It comes with a
> 
> number of Forth words to allow GUI interaction, SD card access etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you hook it up to a serial port and a terminal emulator you
> 
> get a Forth prompt and you're off.
> 
> 
> 
> I just bought mine! At that price, I couldn't resist it!

I'm on the fence with this one.

To be honest, what is the advantage of this kit over an old Palm device with Quartus Forth? Get a Treo and you even get a reasonable keyboard.

Ian

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#16521

On Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:21:31 PM UTC-4, Ian Osgood wrote:
> I'm on the fence with this one. To be honest, what is the advantage of this 
> kit over an old Palm device with Quartus Forth? Get a Treo and you even get a 
> reasonable keyboard. 
> Ian

You are right. 
You get a reasonable keyboard, GPS, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, USB and voice command.
The Palm Treo starts at $68.95
That's intriguing.

May be you should open a discussion for comparison, or better: what would be the best low cost handheld Forth device?

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