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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #15684 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100 |
| Last post | 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 143 — 26 participants |
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Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 15:50 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-03 14:04 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 10:29 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:07 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:27 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:11 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 20:12 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 13:08 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 17:48 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-10-03 07:39 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:24 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:13 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 22:20 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 12:41 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 22:40 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 15:26 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:54 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-05 08:19 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 22:18 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-05 08:20 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 11:08 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 08:32 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-07 21:39 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 21:03 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-08 19:09 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-08 21:57 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:10 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:12 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:29 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:13 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 02:02 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 18:24 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-11 17:21 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-11 12:33 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 13:42 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 18:59 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 13:49 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-12 03:27 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 19:18 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-12 18:53 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 22:55 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-13 22:07 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:56 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 18:41 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-13 16:05 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 02:57 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 00:26 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 19:28 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-14 03:17 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-14 15:43 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:18 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-15 10:03 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 04:04 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-15 21:34 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:51 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 11:31 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 16:50 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:06 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 00:38 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 02:06 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 03:38 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 13:40 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 01:00 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 22:32 -1000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 04:49 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 01:35 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-06 06:17 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth arc <arc.deletethis@vorsicht-bissig.de> - 2012-10-07 23:45 +1300
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:34 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 12:16 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:04 -0500
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 11:41 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-05 12:29 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> - 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 08:52 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 11:53 -0700
Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400
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| From | Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <969e4d7a-825c-4991-addd-cf6865ef13d3@c17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16313 |
On Oct 15, 10:51 pm, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/15/2012 7:04 AM, visualfo...@rocketmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 12:05:04 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote: > >> Bernd Paysan<bernd.paysan.de> writes: > > >>> Yes, nobody uses m/s, which would be the metric base unit. > > >> Which gets us back to the bike computer project: If you can program it > >> yourself, you can use it to measure speed in m/s, or knots if you > >> want, and still get the distance traveled in km or miles. > >> - anton > > > So we are back to START: > > "It seems that the community needs to instill the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons for self express level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level upwards." > > > Let's do it! > > I've already said I'm in. I'll design all the hardware you want. Who > will write the software? > > Rick- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - For hardware inspiration, have a look at MicroRobotics.co.uk - they have everything that has been mentioned, all done and debugged, with a super fast object based programming language (kind of a mixture between Basic and Pascal when I was using them). They hook straight up to things like touch-screen systems, SD card readers, ethernet boards blah blah, and they have a number of project boards available. We used their hardware for some projects in Singapore years ago (early 90's). The kit is still running!
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <be8dd8ee-ade0-437d-99d8-a0c36f337ae7@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16334 |
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:09:40 AM UTC+2, M.R.W Wills wrote: > > For hardware inspiration, have a look at MicroRobotics.co.uk - they > have everything that has been mentioned, all done and debugged, with a > super fast object based programming language (kind of a mixture > between Basic and Pascal when I was using them). They hook straight up > to things like touch-screen systems, SD card readers, ethernet boards > blah blah, and they have a number of project boards available. > > We used their hardware for some projects in Singapore years ago (early > 90's). The kit is still running! Congratulations for your robotics project! I think this hardware is adequate to become a robotics professional using a kind of Basic/Pascal programming language, but for beginners it is quite expensive: the Starter Kit is priced 400$, and a Relay Card is 55$. We should be able to do better, and we should be able to offer Forth programming! By the way, there is another Robotics company in UK, but offering Forth programming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST_Robotics - they have their 30th anniversary this year. Dirk Bruehl http://4e4th.com We are all tolerant - as long as the other behaves as expected!
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <254cb13d-96b8-482f-9d6a-cacf3d69014e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16313 |
On Monday, October 15, 2012 11:51:37 PM UTC+2, rickman wrote: > On 10/15/2012 7:04 AM, visualforth.com wrote: > > So we are back to START: > > > "It seems that the community needs to instill the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons for self express level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level upwards." > > > > Let's do it! > > I've already said I'm in. I'll design all the hardware you want. Who > will write the software? > > Rick Don't worry, Rick! There are several intelligent people on this world who are able and willing to write demo applications in Forth. As Paul wrote, a little "shield" is needed containing some relays, and stepper motor interface with encoder, may be. Some kind of display would be useful, too. Dirk Bruehl http://4e4th.com We are all tolerant - as long as the other behaves as expected!
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5kbud$me1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16338 |
On 10/16/2012 5:30 AM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Monday, October 15, 2012 11:51:37 PM UTC+2, rickman wrote: >> On 10/15/2012 7:04 AM, visualforth.com wrote: >>> So we are back to START: >> >>> "It seems that the community needs to instill the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons for self express level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level upwards." >>> >>> Let's do it! >> >> I've already said I'm in. I'll design all the hardware you want. Who >> will write the software? >> >> Rick > > Don't worry, Rick! > There are several intelligent people on this world who are able and willing to write demo applications in Forth. As Paul wrote, a little "shield" is needed containing some relays, and stepper motor interface with encoder, may be. > Some kind of display would be useful, too. > > Dirk Bruehl > http://4e4th.com > We are all tolerant - as long as the other behaves as expected! For that matter, what is wrong with existing hardware? Your use of the term "shield" for a daughter card says you know about Arudino, so why not that? Beagleboard has several variations including the Beaglebone which has no onboard video, but otherwise is similar. Both are reasonably inexpensive. I've not looked hard at the rPi, but it has a huge following and could be fertile ground. I could design any specialized hardware that is needed. What drives the need for a relay board? Is this a mechanical relay or is a solid state relay useful? High voltage, what current, AC and/or DC? Rick
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5fnhh$vfh$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16255 |
On 10/13/2012 7:05 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > Doug Hoffman<glidedog@gmail.com> writes: >> Yes. There was a "firm" plan for the US to go metric in 1978. I >> clearly recall the events just prior to that. Most all interstate >> freeways had metric speed limit signs installed, > > No country on earth has ever used metric speed limits or metric > speedometers on automobiles. The US uses traditional units (miles per > hour) and some other countries use a mixture of metric and traditional > units (kilometers per hour). I think aircraft still use *nautical* > miles per hour. AFAIK, among transportation technologies, only > spacecraft use actual metric units (meters per second). This has always > been a peeve of mine. Ok, if you think KM/HR is not metric enough then there is no hope for you. Metric is not the same as SI. Using hours does not mean you aren't metric. km is certainly metric. km/hr is used because how far you go in an hour is useful when driving. How many meters you travel in a second is much less useful. Really? Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xk3usr0p9.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16276 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > km/hr is used because how far you go in an hour is useful when > driving. How many meters you travel in a second is much less useful. > Really? Meters per second is the metric unit. If you think metric units aren't so useful, that's fine; lots of other people feel the same way and are content to keep using miles per hour. One conclusion might be that metric isn't so great after all.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5i0tl$2q2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16278 |
On 10/14/2012 9:19 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> km/hr is used because how far you go in an hour is useful when >> driving. How many meters you travel in a second is much less useful. >> Really? > > Meters per second is the metric unit. If you think metric units aren't > so useful, that's fine; lots of other people feel the same way and are > content to keep using miles per hour. One conclusion might be that > metric isn't so great after all. I said nothing about miles. I said "hour". No one cares how far a car goes in a second until it is time to stop possibly. The issue was that you objected to the use of km/hr rather than m/s which no one will use for autos. So what is wrong with km/hr? I don't get that. It's still metric. Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xa9vnl6ke.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16314 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > So what is wrong with km/hr? I don't get that. It's still metric. Bernd posted some standard claiming hours are metric units, but that was news to me. I've always been taught that the metric units are meters, kilograms, seconds. So the unit of speed is meters per second, and road signs using anything else aren't really metric. Of course the m/s thing is sort of a joke, just like the "nano", but realizing it convinced me that the arguments about metric vs traditional (in either direction) don't have much substance.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <k5i42g$lat$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #16316 |
On 10/15/2012 6:21 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> So what is wrong with km/hr? I don't get that. It's still metric. > > Bernd posted some standard claiming hours are metric units, but that was > news to me. I've always been taught that the metric units are meters, > kilograms, seconds. So the unit of speed is meters per second, and road > signs using anything else aren't really metric. Of course the m/s thing > is sort of a joke, just like the "nano", but realizing it convinced me > that the arguments about metric vs traditional (in either direction) > don't have much substance. Base units, as others have said. Prefixes are used so km is ok and they don't insist on kiloseconds, they permit hours. SI is an international organization, but the US NIST has a nice PDF on SI, I don't have the URL and they don't make it easy to find, but a little searching should turn it up. This explains all the issues with base units and other acceptable units along with units they prefer went away, but likely won't until the last MG car is turned into rust. I think that will be sometime this week by my experience. ;^) Still, metric and SI are not synonymous, no? BTW, what is the speed limit in your neighborhood in m/s? Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xr4ozqncv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16318 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > Base units, as others have said. Prefixes are used so km is ok and > they don't insist on kiloseconds, they permit hours. So much for the supposed advantage of metric, using power-of-10 factors for everything. > BTW, what is the speed limit in your neighborhood in m/s? Here we use God's units (mph) for speed limits. ;-)
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| From | "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <adrh60Fsgh2U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #16203 |
rickman wrote: [%X] >> Woops. > > That is my point. They *do* test the "living shit" out of their stuff, > but sometimes they decide a given test is not required (Hubble) or they > just don't think to test something (Mars Orbiter). There are just so > many tests you can do that you *can't* do them all. So problems can't > be tested out of a complex system. > > Of course I'm not saying you shouldn't test. I'm saying you can't > produce complex systems that are 100% reliable. Then I read stuff like > the post I replied to that makes it sound like they think there *is* a > magic bullet to solve the problem. > > I'm just sayin'... Where Forth wins out for high integrity systems, in my view, is in that you can write a collection of simple programmes that are so obviously correct by inspection, confirm the case by fully testing, and build the more complex application without having to repeat too much of the former testing.This is, of course, assuming that the Forth code was developed from use of a decent development process. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
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| From | "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <adrg70Frv5mU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #16200 |
Mark Wills wrote: [%X] >> what about the mars probe where they mixed imperial and metric units? >> >> Q.E.D :-) > > On September 23, 1999 NASA lost the $125 million Mars Climate Orbiter > spacecraft after a 286-day journey to Mars. Miscalculations due to the > use of English units instead of metric units apparently sent the craft > slowly off course -- 60 miles in all. Thrusters used to help point the > spacecraft had, over the course of months, been fired incorrectly > because data used to control the wheels were calculated in incorrect > units. Lockheed Martin, which was performing the calculations, was > sending thruster data in English units (pounds) to NASA, while NASA's > navigation team was expecting metric units (Newtons). > > Woops. A case of not fully locking down the Interface Spec. -- ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979 Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk.. ********************************************************************
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| From | Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <07a5baa4-815e-44fa-ad6d-e598f0a2f38b@y6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16078 |
On Oct 9, 5:57 am, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote: > I guess I'm not seeing how this is different from C then. Code change > is not topologically continuous. Sure you can write a new component > bottom-up, but you can't really connect it up to other components til a > substantial amount of the new component is working, and maybe then you > find there you find an interaction problem you hadn't thought of in > advance. What then? You re-factor. You change the code. You know these kind of high-brow discussions are quite entertaining. They often make me chuckle to myself. Not so much here on CLF, but on Java websites, or (all the time) in programming books we hear these kind of every-day programming problems cited as major disasters. Project Mangler: "Oh no! Johnny had to change the interface of his object to take an unsingned int instead of an int. CALL THE MEDIA. OH NASH NASH. WAIL WAIL. HOW WILL WE EVER RECOVER FROM THIS TERMINAL ERROR? SOMEONE FIRE JOHNNY. HOW COULD HE BE SO STUPID... SEE? SEE?.... IF HE HAD ABSTRACTED THE INTERFACE FROM THE DEFINITION OF THE CLASS THEN THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED... BUT NO... *NOBODY* LISTENS TO ME. I TOLD YOU IT WOULD BE A DISASTER. I READ IT IN A BOOK. OH NO! WE'RE REALLY SCREWED NOW. UP SHIT CREEK. *WE'LL HAVE TO RE-WRITE THE ENTIRE APP*. OH MAN. I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN..." Johnny: "Er, it's okay guys. I did the change. Took like 15 mins. God bless the object browser, eh?" :-) The truth is, if you know the app, you can change it. It really isn't a big deal. Sure, there's a cost. The expense is in the re-testing, not in the re-engineering.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7x1uh7k5a0.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16087 |
Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> writes: > The truth is, if you know the app, you can change it. It really isn't > a big deal. Sure, there's a cost. The expense is in the re-testing, > not in the re-engineering. Well, I was just in this situation with a C++ program. I added a feature and that caused a double-free crash in another part of the program. I "fixed" the crash but the fix left a memory leak, which also had to be fixed. Detecting the memory leak required running the program for a while, which I had to do several times to observe the leak and test the fix, burning more time. None of this was a big disaster--it was just a normal part of a day's development. But with more civilized (i.e. GC'd) languages, this stuff just doesn't happen in the first place. Programmers can then focus their efforts more directly at producing visible end results. If your testing expenses are that large (outside of critical systems), it could be because too many bugs are getting through your development process, and maybe you should re-examine your strategy.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <etydnYn8ffDy0OnNnZ2dnUVZ8j-dnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #16100 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Well, I was just in this situation with a C++ program. I added a > feature and that caused a double-free crash in another part of the > program. I "fixed" the crash but the fix left a memory leak, which > also had to be fixed. Detecting the memory leak required running > the program for a while, which I had to do several times to observe > the leak and test the fix, burning more time. > > None of this was a big disaster--it was just a normal part of a > day's development. But with more civilized (i.e. GC'd) languages, > this stuff just doesn't happen in the first place. And neither, I have to point out, does it happen with a language that doesn't use dynamic memory allocation. Besides, the analogy in a GC'd langauge is a memory leak: these are very hard to avoid and happen all the time. Andrew.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1671428.16UQojdk74@sunwukong.fritz.box> |
| In reply to | #16102 |
Andrew Haley wrote: > And neither, I have to point out, does it happen with a language that > doesn't use dynamic memory allocation. Besides, the analogy in a GC'd > langauge is a memory leak: these are very hard to avoid and happen all > the time. A lot of people seem to assume that a GC'd language means you don't have memory leaks, the GC will find and collect all garbage. Though, in reality, this isn't true. A GC can throw away things that aren't pointed to by any of the root pointers. However, you can easily have a situation where you store things in a structure pointed by a root that you don't actually need anymore. You may, in a GUI, have a map of the OS window identifiers to the internal window objects, and that map is alive. If you don't manually remove window objects from that list, they'll clutter your memory indefinitely. If you are writing a complex piece of software, like a web browser, which is by design and specification prone to memory leaks, you better should add enough debugging code to inspect your memory and see the reasoning of the GC why objects are alive. If you don't know what's going on in your program, you are too easily lost. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xsj9n2jv6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #16102 |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >> But with more civilized (i.e. GC'd) languages, this stuff just >> doesn't happen in the first place. > And neither, I have to point out, does it happen with a language that > doesn't use dynamic memory allocation. Besides, the analogy in a GC'd > langauge is a memory leak: these are very hard to avoid and happen all > the time. When the language doesnm't feature dynamic memory allocation, applications (at least of a certain sort) tend to grow it, per Greenspun's Tenth Law. Memory leaks in GC'd programs happen, but in my own experience they haven't been that big a problem in Python or Lisp (I don't know about Java). When they do occur, usually there's a stray reference to some complex structure, so get rid of that and everything is solved. This is better than C++ where you have to be much more careful about what depends on what. They happen very easily in Haskell as a result of Haskell's lazy evaluation strategy, and this is one of the most common and serious criticisms of Haskell. Learning how to avoid them is one of the early hurdles new Haskell programmers have to get past. There are some decent tools for detecting them based on runtime profiling. It would really be better if the compiler could help more, but there are apparently complex issues involved.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <voCdnX6yofMjbOnNnZ2dnUVZ8nqdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #16141 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes: >>> But with more civilized (i.e. GC'd) languages, this stuff just >>> doesn't happen in the first place. >> >> And neither, I have to point out, does it happen with a language that >> doesn't use dynamic memory allocation. Besides, the analogy in a GC'd >> language is a memory leak: these are very hard to avoid and happen all >> the time. > > When the language doesn't feature dynamic memory allocation, > applications (at least of a certain sort) tend to grow it, per > Greenspun's Tenth Law. Memory leaks in GC'd programs happen, but in my > own experience they haven't been that big a problem in Python or Lisp (I > don't know about Java). When they do occur, usually there's a stray > reference to some complex structure, so get rid of that and everything > is solved. This is better than C++ where you have to be much more > careful about what depends on what. I don't think it's so clear. With a GC you have to remember to null references to structures you no longer care about instead of manually freeing them, but you still have to clean up after yourself. GC helps, for sure, because you can't access data after it's been freed and you don't have to worry who else has a reference to your data. But that's all. Andrew.
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| From | Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <41674309-5ea4-4f33-8b03-c62c5209d975@w2g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #16058 |
On Oct 8, 6:09 pm, Bernd Paysan <bernd.pay...@gmx.de> wrote: > The array function in my string package is auto-expanding the string > array instead of crashing. This goes towards robustness, not towards > crashing. No it doesn't. If it's *auto* expanding then it just hides an undetected problem. You end up with a program that works fine for a few hours on the lab bench, but crashes every three weeks in the field. It goes towards crash later. And I can tell you, from bitter experience, they are the hardest of all bugs to find, and often end up never being solved: "Hey, that plating controller is really great, saved us a lot of money in copper sulphate solution, but it crashes every three weeks, and we have to scrap whatever job is in the bath." "Hmmm... Are you sure it's not some power spike? Is a large pump nearby switching on or something like that?" "Dunno. Could be. We're all scratching our heads here! But hey, it's like only every three weeks or so..." "Hmmm... Say, how's about we program it to do a reboot at the end of each job?" "Yeah. Great idea" < six months later > "How's the controller" "Oh man! Solid as a rock! We just love it! Send us the bill. And another controller while you're at it!" "Great" When the truth is, it's as shaky as hell!
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1363612.6LjOv5X6MU@sunwukong.fritz.box> |
| In reply to | #16084 |
Mark Wills wrote: > On Oct 8, 6:09 pm, Bernd Paysan <bernd.pay...@gmx.de> wrote: >> The array function in my string package is auto-expanding the string >> array instead of crashing. This goes towards robustness, not towards >> crashing. > > No it doesn't. If it's *auto* expanding then it just hides an > undetected problem. I honestly disagree. What should $+! do other than auto-expanding the destination string so it can add the requested string? Same with a string array, which you usually use by converting lines of a file into an array for random access. Some of the auto-expanding code I wrote allow to expand one bit at a time, but not arbitrary writes into the void. This covers pretty well for what could be an undetected problem. Having to expand deliberately and manually makes the use of such a package tedious at the expense of robustness. > You end up with a program that works fine for a > few hours on the lab bench, but crashes every three weeks in the > field. It goes towards crash later. And I can tell you, from bitter > experience, they are the hardest of all bugs to find, and often end up > never being solved: Sorry to say so, but if you don't print out a meaningful backtrace in case of a crash, you won't solve this sort of problems. Maybe yes, it only crashes every three weeks and the backtrace goes something like out of memory error $[]+! some function calling that etc. So what do you do? Maybe you need to add a little clues in the backtrace, to show what actually happened, and let it run another 3 weeks to get there... or maybe it's already enough of a hint to show what's going wrong. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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