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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #47094 > unrolled thread
| Started by | stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-05-13 20:05 +0000 |
| Last post | 2016-05-17 21:08 +1000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 214 — 26 participants |
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C to Forth (was Ting) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2016-05-13 20:05 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-13 14:06 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-05-14 00:27 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-13 21:55 -0700
RTX20xx ...Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-05-19 08:58 +0100
Re: RTX20xx ...Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-05-21 04:08 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-05-21 04:09 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-13 14:33 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-05-14 00:28 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-13 21:02 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-14 15:15 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-14 17:39 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-14 16:56 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-14 20:25 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 00:16 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-15 00:19 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 08:58 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-15 08:24 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 17:18 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-15 18:52 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-16 06:23 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-16 15:12 -0700
Programmable "people" "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-20 23:34 +0000
Re: Programmable "people" rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 00:48 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-23 14:21 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-15 10:42 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-05-17 20:33 +1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-17 08:39 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-17 14:06 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-17 11:40 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 19:20 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Tessa Bonting <tessa.bonting@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 08:32 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-15 12:18 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-05-25 13:41 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-15 17:22 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-15 17:24 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-15 19:30 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-16 13:37 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-16 07:25 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-05-16 21:50 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-16 16:06 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-17 01:04 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 01:43 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-05-17 10:05 +0100
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 11:08 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-18 10:49 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-05-19 13:27 +0100
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-19 06:01 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-19 10:32 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-19 10:11 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-19 16:29 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-19 14:16 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-19 14:07 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-19 14:42 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-20 03:46 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@bcczxcfre.cmm> - 2016-05-20 04:53 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-20 22:16 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-20 21:43 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-21 15:56 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-21 02:52 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-20 22:11 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-21 03:13 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-21 15:43 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-22 22:22 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-05-23 08:30 +0200
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-22 23:39 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-22 23:36 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-23 04:24 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-24 09:14 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-05-23 10:35 +0100
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-23 18:53 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-23 19:43 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-24 00:28 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-23 21:53 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-24 01:56 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-24 09:03 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-24 22:09 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-23 22:59 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-24 04:32 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-24 12:46 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-24 15:26 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-24 15:57 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-05-25 07:44 +0200
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-24 23:29 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-24 22:09 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-25 03:57 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-05-24 11:04 +0100
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-24 14:01 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-19 15:05 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-19 21:25 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-20 03:57 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 06:48 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-20 09:40 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-20 09:31 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 13:53 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-20 14:16 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-21 03:01 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-21 10:23 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 13:37 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-23 04:38 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-23 23:11 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-24 13:15 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-24 13:51 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 19:36 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-20 22:50 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-21 16:22 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 14:04 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-22 15:33 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 19:14 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-22 17:11 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 20:58 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-23 13:50 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 08:09 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-23 13:38 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 07:58 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 18:55 +0300
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 16:00 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 06:54 +0300
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 00:04 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 07:19 +0300
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 00:40 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 08:04 +0300
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 03:41 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-24 01:51 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Bruce Axtens <bruce.axtens@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 10:00 +0800
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 07:08 +0300
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-24 04:36 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 02:48 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-23 19:28 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-23 11:46 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 13:30 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-24 13:37 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 14:22 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-05-26 00:29 +0200
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 16:12 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 23:29 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 14:06 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-25 19:30 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-25 20:52 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 23:27 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 07:40 +0300
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-26 10:03 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 14:31 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-27 07:22 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 06:07 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-27 10:00 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-27 15:51 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-27 16:27 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-27 19:25 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-28 13:12 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 15:07 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-28 19:15 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 23:41 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 14:50 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-29 04:36 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-29 04:34 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-29 12:19 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 15:37 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-30 15:31 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 14:54 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-05-30 14:44 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-30 19:21 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 13:49 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-31 04:01 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 15:02 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-31 17:27 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-01 07:22 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 16:09 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-01 18:03 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 06:36 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-01 02:54 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 08:50 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-01 07:38 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 10:58 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-01 11:32 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:10 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:04 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-06-01 17:57 -1000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-06-01 22:54 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 04:31 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-06-02 04:59 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 11:44 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 14:58 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 23:43 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 15:07 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 22:44 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 07:14 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 10:33 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) pahihu <pahihu@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 10:31 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 16:57 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) pahihu <pahihu@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 23:57 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 09:01 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) pahihu <pahihu@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 07:17 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 13:12 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 14:09 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 10:07 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:13 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2016-05-17 02:14 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 11:50 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Darin Murphy <murphy.darin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-17 15:28 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 18:52 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-18 09:41 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 01:12 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-05-17 04:34 -0500
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-05-17 10:46 -0700
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-18 09:10 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-18 09:36 -0400
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-16 17:58 +0000
Cross compilers [Was: C to Forth] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-18 04:58 -0500
Re: Cross compilers [Was: C to Forth] Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-18 11:25 +0000
Re: Cross compilers [Was: C to Forth] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-05-18 10:28 -0500
Recognizers (was: Cross compilers) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-05-18 16:48 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-16 15:11 +0000
Re: C to Forth (was Ting) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-05-17 21:08 +1000
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-30 14:44 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <yuOdnYl4aeTOQ9HKnZ2dnUU7-dnNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #47646 |
On 5/30/16 11:54 AM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >> Indeed not. It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. > > Ok,... candle :) How many projects you are done last year with Forth? Enough to keep several programmers employed full time. We tend to have long-term relationships with substantial companies, who use us for systems-level tasks (e.g., drivers, comms protocols, etc.) while their own Forth programmers write most of the applications layers. Here are a couple: GE JungleMUX SONET and TN1Ue SDH multiplexer product line http://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/Multiplexers.asp (most of the power grid in the US and Canada depends on these devices) Radeus Labs Model 8200™ development team Satellite Earth Station Controls https://www.forth.com/satellite-earth-station-antenna-controls/ Here's a list of Forth Space applications... https://www.forth.com/resources/space-applications/ it's old, but a lot of the users are still active. The Rosetta Spacecraft that was in the news last year used Forth. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2003ESASP.532E..72B There's a partial user list here: https://www.forth.com/resources/who-uses-forth/ Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-30 19:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c277ea44-23ec-4825-9b00-e9097751b5fe@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47648 |
On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 5:44:04 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > On 5/30/16 11:54 AM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > >> Indeed not. It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. > > > > Ok,... candle :) How many projects you are done last year with Forth? > > Enough to keep several programmers employed full time. We tend to have > long-term relationships with substantial companies, who use us for > systems-level tasks (e.g., drivers, comms protocols, etc.) while their > own Forth programmers write most of the applications layers. Here are a > couple: > > GE JungleMUX SONET and TN1Ue SDH multiplexer product line > http://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/Multiplexers.asp > (most of the power grid in the US and Canada depends on these devices) > > Radeus Labs Model 8200™ development team Satellite Earth Station Controls > https://www.forth.com/satellite-earth-station-antenna-controls/ > > Here's a list of Forth Space applications... > https://www.forth.com/resources/space-applications/ > it's old, but a lot of the users are still active. The Rosetta > Spacecraft that was in the news last year used Forth. > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2003ESASP.532E..72B > > There's a partial user list here: > https://www.forth.com/resources/who-uses-forth/ You have a long history of claiming support from people who don't actually support you. In the ANS-Forth document you listed both Ray Duncan and Charles Moore as supporters of ANS-Forth --- that was not true --- you listed them because they were the luminaries of Forth at that time and you wouldn't have gotten ANSI approval without their names, but you were lying. For a long time you were claiming that Forth Inc. worked for NASA, but you seem to have dropped that story now. The whole idea of Forth Inc. working for NASA is ridiculous! Did you teach the NASA programmers that PAD is the standard in ANS-Forth temporary storage? Did you try to impress the NASA programmers with your "leading expert" status in Forth by showing them code snippets copied directly out of the "Starting Forth" book? Did you show them code like this? On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 7:30:10 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > Here's [an array definer] presented in my Forth Application Techniques that I think is > far more useful than the FSL version: > > : ARRAY ( n -- ) CREATE DUP , CELLS ALLOT > DOES> ( n -- a) SWAP OVER @ OVER < OVER > 1 < OR ABORT" Out of Range" CELLS + ; You're a total fake! You don't program in Forth at all. I think that you are a pathological liar --- all of your success stories are fiction --- I have never heard of any Forth Inc. customer (not NASA or anybody else) who says that your stories are true. You have made an entire career out of bragging about knowing Charles Moore back in the 1970s --- funny thing is though, that he never brags about knowing you. You have claimed to hob-nob with Barrack Obama's family, and to also hob-nob with Nobel Peace Prize winners (plural). You remind me of how, when I used to work as a cab driver, customers would often brag to me about partying with various celebrities, or tell me wild stories about how they worked for NASA as a test-pilot, or were the MMA cage-fighting champion in multiple cities, or whatever. None of this stuff is true --- you aren't lighting a candle in the darkness --- you are just blowing hot air. I also don't think that Forth Inc. employees any full-time programmers. I think that Forth Inc. only employees sales-people who pretend to be programmers. Forth Inc. sold SwiftForth-v2 for over $400 and yet (LOCAL) would crash the system when it was used. How does a bug like this get past your testing team? This is not a subtle bug that happens in obscure situations. Obviously, you never tested SwiftForth locals at all before releasing SwiftForth. You never wrote any program that used locals at all, or you would have noticed that the system crashed every time. I think that the Forth Inc. "programmers" are just sales-people who slap some code together without testing it and then sell sell sell --- when the customers point out the bugs they tell the customer to pay a $300 upgrade fee to get the new version that supposedly has the bugs fixed.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-31 13:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9678b09c-a252-49d2-a9f7-31fdaf9380b1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47648 |
вторник, 31 мая 2016 г., 3:44:04 UTC+3 пользователь Elizabeth D. Rather написал: > On 5/30/16 11:54 AM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > >> Indeed not. It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. > > > > Ok,... candle :) How many projects you are done last year with Forth? > > Enough to keep several programmers employed full time. We tend to have > long-term relationships with substantial companies, who use us for > systems-level tasks (e.g., drivers, comms protocols, etc.) while their > own Forth programmers write most of the applications layers. Here are a > couple: > > GE JungleMUX SONET and TN1Ue SDH multiplexer product line > http://www.gegridsolutions.com/Communications/Multiplexers.asp > (most of the power grid in the US and Canada depends on these devices) > > Radeus Labs Model 8200™ development team Satellite Earth Station Controls > https://www.forth.com/satellite-earth-station-antenna-controls/ > > Here's a list of Forth Space applications... > https://www.forth.com/resources/space-applications/ > it's old, but a lot of the users are still active. The Rosetta > Spacecraft that was in the news last year used Forth. > http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2003ESASP.532E..72B > > There's a partial user list here: > https://www.forth.com/resources/who-uses-forth/ Thank you, this is very interesting. I hope this kind of success stories will show real examples how to organize programming on Forth (not how to write programs). In early 2000-th I had contact with one company, who claims they are #1 forthers in Russia. When I invite them to a conference, I suddenly receive proposal to be their regional sales manager :) Several years ago another large silicon design centre cancel partnership with them due to poor architecture of their ForthCPU combined with enormous ambitions of '#1 forthers'. I know it, because that design center is my partner since the time they calls me to solve that problem. They was surprised forthers may be ready to contact and not to behave as an elite. So 'more than 20 years on the Forth market in Russia' is not a guarantee to be successful every time. I'm sure to be more open to non-forther partners is very important now, otherwise Forth positions will degrade over time. I wish Forth Inc my best, but also want to help another peoples and workgroups to take a part with this process.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-31 04:01 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <BrSdncklw8Fwz9DKnZ2dnUU7-e_NnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #47646 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > ???????????, 30 ??? 2016 ?., 23:31:19 UTC+3 ???????????? Andrew Haley ???????: >> > This is not productive position. When you try to make Forth too different, >> >> I'm not. Your question was: "Why do you speak about Forth systems >> only?" The answer was: because this is c.l.f. I'm not proposing to >> make Forth too different. > > File access is not an exclusive Forth invention. Many languages use > file operations and this is not too wise idea to highlight Forth > difference by proposing different syntax for non-important > things. If Forth will be more familiar when possible, more > programmers can say 'we have a little enough list to learn, so why > don't try?' Sure, but this is assuming that the Forth way of handing files is "different for non-important things." I dont accept that it is. >> Hmm. I don't think that follows. The main things Forth has to >> contribute are IMO the areas in which it is differnt from other >> languages and systems. In particular, Forth is elegant and very >> simple. > > Differency is not a rule or style. Some key things in Forth cannot > be done with common syntax, such as stack and postfix notation, but > it is a wrong way to continue invention of strange things. I think that requires some specific examples. The Forth way is to solve problems in simple and clean ways by providing simple and clean facilities. >> Of course, I would vbe very happy if someone wrote a specification for >> a standard way to interface Forth with posix. But I don't think that >> this needs to be pat of a language standard. > > A noticeable problem is related to Forth extensions. They are > optional, but many peoples interprets it like 'you must do not > implement it at all or implement it as extension describes'. That would seem sensible to me, but neither I nor the standard are responsible for people's incorrect assumptions. > So when C++ programmer comes and ask 'can I have fopen/fread/fclose > in Forth?' the common answer is 'no, it is not allowed by Forth > standard!' That is utter nonsense. Absolute twenty-four carat nonsense on stilts. I don't know why you even bothered to write it. >> > You still don't show me benefits from using only OPEN-FILE and other >> > file IO from ANS. >> >> Still? Is this a question that you already asked? When? > > I've asked several times, why Forth fileIO use different syntax. Forth has its own syntax, of course, but the commands are not very different. The Forth file I/O corresponds to the low-level file operations provided by many operating systems. Read, write, open, close, etc. Whatever you do isn't going to vary in a very substantial way. >> not at all. The question was answered in a straightforward and >> truthful way. If there's anything you didn't understand, feel free to >> ask. If you have a reason to believe it was insincere, you need to >> explain why. Preferably in a way that doesn't insult anybody. > > I've told you that reasons to propose different syntax looks > innatural. This is not my misunderstanding in terms how to work with > files. I want to point you current version of ANS shows no strategy, > no logic structure and don't target real applications. Look at me as > at your investor before write an answer :) Yeah, right. What exactly do you want? Buffered I/O on top of the low-level words? It's hard to tell. >> > This is because you are focused on money, not on long-term benefits >> > for society. >> >> No, it's because that's what the English word "professional" means. > > This word pronounces exactly equal in Russian, so it is not an > 'English word'. We're writing English, so we must use English definitions of words. > Professionals must solve real tasks for peoples, > don't play their games with standards, which are only tools. No argument there. >> >> > I think programmers are free to write their own implementations. >> >> >> >> Do you see anyone here disagreeing with that? >> > >> > Formally, no. In background, yes. >> >> I don't understand what you mean by this. > > Finally, there is a 'last argument' here: 'this is non-standard'. So > some peoples allowing others to play theis games, until it is not > too serious. > >> Indeed not. It's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. > > Ok,... candle :) How many projects you are done last year with Forth? That's an interesting attempt at evasion. It won't work. In recent years I've been busy with other things. But I'm not going to argue qualifications with anyone. It seems to me that you're making a fundamental mistake. This mistake is to assume that if anyone disagrees with you about Forth standardzation they are "playing games." Has it not occured to you that they might honestly disagree with you? Andrew.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-31 15:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a7d45ccf-0080-4821-92e3-89e2f147994a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47656 |
вторник, 31 мая 2016 г., 12:01:35 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > > things. If Forth will be more familiar when possible, more > > programmers can say 'we have a little enough list to learn, so why > > don't try?' > > Sure, but this is assuming that the Forth way of handing files is > "different for non-important things." I dont accept that it is. I can show at least two sets of file IO. From old Turbo-Pascal we have open rewrite readfile close, and from C family of languages we have fopen fread (fscanf) fclose. I see no reasons to strictly fix one set of words in standard. Allowing programmers to choose familiar syntax (depending on what is their base programming language) will make Forth more comfortable to learn. Base low-level set may be left as an example with guide how to recover it to favorite syntax. > > Differency is not a rule or style. Some key things in Forth cannot > > be done with common syntax, such as stack and postfix notation, but > > it is a wrong way to continue invention of strange things. > > I think that requires some specific examples. The Forth way is to > solve problems in simple and clean ways by providing simple and clean > facilities. There a lot of examples. Forthers often provokes other programmers to conflict, presenting all in Forth as features. This may include syntax. Of course, this leads to misunderstanding, and requests to modify Forth looks very strong. I see no reasons to keep THROW after each file IO, to keep E in floating number etc. All of these claimed to be changeable, so there is success stories how it was changed after requests? At least we should have a pack of guides how to do it and what is a real core of Forth, which cannot be modified with easy. > > A noticeable problem is related to Forth extensions. They are > > optional, but many peoples interprets it like 'you must do not > > implement it at all or implement it as extension describes'. > > That would seem sensible to me, but neither I nor the standard are > responsible for people's incorrect assumptions. Formally no. In reality, peoples who feel they are leaders, must be responsible even for assumptions. If other peoples can't properly understand the role of extensiions, this point should be corrected. > > So when C++ programmer comes and ask 'can I have fopen/fread/fclose > > in Forth?' the common answer is 'no, it is not allowed by Forth > > standard!' > > That is utter nonsense. Absolute twenty-four carat nonsense on > stilts. I don't know why you even bothered to write it. I don't understand your reaction. I met both C programmers who ask me for Forth words renaming/altering and Forth programmers who wants to keep all exactly as is. > Forth has its own syntax, of course, but the commands are not very > different. The Forth file I/O corresponds to the low-level file > operations provided by many operating systems. Read, write, open, > close, etc. Whatever you do isn't going to vary in a very substantial > way. Really? Take a look and compare. You can start from the fact Windows API returns only one parameter. > > I've told you that reasons to propose different syntax looks > > innatural. This is not my misunderstanding in terms how to work with > > files. I want to point you current version of ANS shows no strategy, > > no logic structure and don't target real applications. Look at me as > > at your investor before write an answer :) > > Yeah, right. > > What exactly do you want? Buffered I/O on top of the low-level words? > It's hard to tell. Indeed, I have a list of things I have implemented different from ANS. I have no goal to replace ANS with my (and only my) vision, but I can see no real way to propose solution and make it accepted or declined by transparent rules. It is very hard to come to small group to make it open to big world. > We're writing English, so we must use English definitions of words. Definitions are rarely to be 100% complete. For me, responsibility to make things right means more than ability to receive salary. > > Ok,... candle :) How many projects you are done last year with Forth? > > That's an interesting attempt at evasion. It won't work. In recent > years I've been busy with other things. But I'm not going to argue > qualifications with anyone. I've wrote before I use Forth active enough. It includes PC, embedded and Forth-CPU products. This means I'm not complaining. > It seems to me that you're making a fundamental mistake. This mistake > is to assume that if anyone disagrees with you about Forth > standardzation they are "playing games." Has it not occured to you > that they might honestly disagree with you? Having no results for 1 year means almost nothing. No results for 20 years means everything. I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-31 17:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6b54c891-8c85-4dda-a0ec-7937947ab3f4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47670 |
On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 3:02:56 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> вторник, 31 мая 2016 г., 12:01:35 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал:
> There a lot of examples. Forthers often provokes other programmers to conflict, presenting all in Forth as features. This may include syntax. Of course, this leads to misunderstanding, and requests to modify Forth looks very strong. I see no reasons to keep THROW after each file IO, to keep E in floating number etc. All of these claimed to be changeable, so there is success stories how it was changed after requests? At least we should have a pack of guides how to do it and what is a real core of Forth, which cannot be modified with easy.
I have this in the novice-package:
: <open-file> ( adr cnt fam -- file-id )
open-file abort" *** <OPEN-FILE> failed to open ***" ;
: <create-file> ( adr cnt fam -- file-id )
create-file abort" *** <CREATE-FILE> failed to open ***" ;
: <close-file> ( file-id -- )
close-file abort" *** <CLOSE-FILE> failed to close ***" ;
There is rarely any need to handle each error with THROW --- usually you just want to abort --- maybe in a commercial program with a GUI you would want to trap the error, but I'll worry about that problem when it comes.
Also, as I said, I have STR>NUM in my string-stack.4th package.
> Indeed, I have a list of things I have implemented different from ANS. I have no goal to replace ANS with my (and only my) vision, but I can see no real way to propose solution and make it accepted or declined by transparent rules. It is very hard to come to small group to make it open to big world.
The problem with ANS-Forth (I mean, other than the myriad technical problems), was that it was presented as the one-and-only definition of Forth, and everybody else denounced as non-standard and meaningless.
There can be multiple Forth standards in existence at the same time. There can be standards that were written by sales-people claiming to be the "leading expert" on Forth, and there can be standards written by programmers who want portability of programs between compilers. The Forthers can choose which standard(s) they want to work with, and the compiler-vendors can choose which standard(s) they want to support.
The big problem is that the world is full of people with weak minds who are incapable of accomplishing anything themselves and just want to follow a great leader. This makes it possible for a non-programmer to be successful at claiming to be the great leader of all the programmers in the world --- successful in the sense of acquiring a legion of pocket boys --- not successful in the sense that she ever learns how to program.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 07:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b10f3b05-cec7-4192-85d5-bffdf51da926@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47673 |
On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 5:27:10 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 3:02:56 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > вторник, 31 мая 2016 г., 12:01:35 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал: > > There a lot of examples. Forthers often provokes other programmers to conflict, presenting all in Forth as features. This may include syntax. Of course, this leads to misunderstanding, and requests to modify Forth looks very strong. I see no reasons to keep THROW after each file IO, to keep E in floating number etc. All of these claimed to be changeable, so there is success stories how it was changed after requests? At least we should have a pack of guides how to do it and what is a real core of Forth, which cannot be modified with easy. > > I have this in the novice-package: > > : <open-file> ( adr cnt fam -- file-id ) > open-file abort" *** <OPEN-FILE> failed to open ***" ; > > : <create-file> ( adr cnt fam -- file-id ) > create-file abort" *** <CREATE-FILE> failed to open ***" ; > > : <close-file> ( file-id -- ) > close-file abort" *** <CLOSE-FILE> failed to close ***" ; > > There is rarely any need to handle each error with THROW --- usually you just want to abort --- maybe in a commercial program with a GUI you would want to trap the error, but I'll worry about that problem when it comes. > > Also, as I said, I have STR>NUM in my string-stack.4th package. I wrote STR>NUM primarily so that it could be used in the outer-interpreter of my Forth. I agree with Ilya that numbers in Forth should look like numbers in other languages. Every language in the world considers 123.45 to be a floating-point number a little over 123 --- it makes Forth look gratuitously obscure (a "white crow") for this to be a double-precision integer equal to 12,345 --- people see this and they think, "WTF?," and they lose interest in Forth. OTOH however, I am not going to have recognizers in my Forth. What numbers look like should be defined in the language. Recognizers are a mistake because then any yahoo can come up with his own syntax for Forth. If you have X sets of recognizers, and they all clash so the order they are installed matters, then you have X! incompatible syntaxes. This can quickly get out of control. Pretty soon, every Forth program depends upon a different mish-mash of recognizers, every Forth program has a different syntax, and Forth has become completely unreadable! Similarly with file I/O. It is a good idea to use something that is in common use, such as POSIX, but it is a bad idea for everybody to do their own thing. The whole point of a standard is to make programs portable from one compiler to another, and also to make programs readable with minimal study --- you don't want a lot of gratuitous divergence, but you need standardization --- this only works if the standard is written by programmers who are focused on portability of programs as their goal, rather than by an idiot sales-person who is focused on declaring her self to be the ruler of the world. ANS-Forth: informed by ignorance, driven by arrogance, and successful at nothing
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 16:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <24467be1-8770-4bcd-8a64-42e2fdf542df@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47673 |
среда, 1 июня 2016 г., 3:27:10 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:
>
> I have this in the novice-package:
>
> : <open-file> ( adr cnt fam -- file-id )
> open-file abort" *** <OPEN-FILE> failed to open ***" ;
>
> : <create-file> ( adr cnt fam -- file-id )
> create-file abort" *** <CREATE-FILE> failed to open ***" ;
>
> : <close-file> ( file-id -- )
> close-file abort" *** <CLOSE-FILE> failed to close ***" ;
>
> There is rarely any need to handle each error with THROW --- usually you just want to abort --- maybe in a commercial program with a GUI you would want to trap the error, but I'll worry about that problem when it comes.
Yes, this is often appears on top of low-level words. Programmers are familiar with interface like fileid = fopen("myfile.dat", "r"); and no other parameters are required. If required file is missing, no recovering action may be taken in 99% cases. It is normal to return to Forth console through ABORT, with no system crash here.
> The problem with ANS-Forth (I mean, other than the myriad technical problems), was that it was presented as the one-and-only definition of Forth, and everybody else denounced as non-standard and meaningless.
There are two strategies:
1. Collect remaining newbies and hobbyists and prevent deep learning of Forth for them to keep ability to control Forth community. This is a way to slow degradation and completely moving to group of 'strange, obsolete and useless PLs'.
2. Found real partners and customers and review Forth engine to make it domain-specific for group of selected tasks.
> There can be multiple Forth standards in existence at the same time. There can be standards that were written by sales-people claiming to be the "leading expert" on Forth, and there can be standards written by programmers who want portability of programs between compilers. The Forthers can choose which standard(s) they want to work with, and the compiler-vendors can choose which standard(s) they want to support.
There is an hierarchy of standards which can be applicable, including company-level standards. I never met an official requirement 'ANS-compatible Forth must be used in this project'.
> The big problem is that the world is full of people with weak minds who are incapable of accomplishing anything themselves and just want to follow a great leader. This makes it possible for a non-programmer to be successful at claiming to be the great leader of all the programmers in the world --- successful in the sense of acquiring a legion of pocket boys --- not successful in the sense that she ever learns how to program.
This is normal for real leader to make peoples around more skilled and independent. Weak assistents are useless for a strong team.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 18:03 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <Tc2dnapKnq6bLdLKnZ2dnUU7-RnNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #47701 |
On 6/1/16 1:09 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > There is an hierarchy of standards which can be applicable, > including company-level standards. I never met an official > requirement 'ANS-compatible Forth must be used in this project'. I have, many times. Maybe not so much in Russia, but in this country the larger companies all require projects to follow established, recognized standards, because this ensures that they can recruit project members from a wide base both for development and for maintenance of the project into the future. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 06:36 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6fff716c-4b7c-4097-823c-1b3d68cb9498@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47711 |
четверг, 2 июня 2016 г., 7:03:19 UTC+3 пользователь Elizabeth D. Rather написал: > On 6/1/16 1:09 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > > There is an hierarchy of standards which can be applicable, > > including company-level standards. I never met an official > > requirement 'ANS-compatible Forth must be used in this project'. > > I have, many times. Maybe not so much in Russia, but in this country the > larger companies all require projects to follow established, recognized > standards, because this ensures that they can recruit project members > from a wide base both for development and for maintenance of the project > into the future. This is important for mainstream languages, when vendors want to save time and money to teach programmers. If you want to do the same with Forth, you need a large market where Forth is required as is, not as internal tool. I'm looking on worldwide statistics here, not on Forth Inc only. It shows Forth lost positions in top50 languages, so it is more likely to be used as an internal tool. In this case, standard is better to be optimized for market domain or even group of vendors with similar requirements.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 02:54 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <G6Gdndp5c_07CdPKnZ2dnUU7-SvNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #47670 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > ???????, 31 ??? 2016 ?., 12:01:35 UTC+3 ???????????? Andrew Haley ???????: >> Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: >> > things. If Forth will be more familiar when possible, more >> > programmers can say 'we have a little enough list to learn, so why >> > don't try?' >> >> Sure, but this is assuming that the Forth way of handing files is >> "different for non-important things." I dont accept that it is. > > I can show at least two sets of file IO. From old Turbo-Pascal we > have open rewrite readfile close, and from C family of languages we > have fopen fread (fscanf) fclose. I see no reasons to strictly fix > one set of words in standard. We can't have shared library code otherwise. Is that not a reason? >> > Differency is not a rule or style. Some key things in Forth cannot >> > be done with common syntax, such as stack and postfix notation, but >> > it is a wrong way to continue invention of strange things. >> >> I think that requires some specific examples. The Forth way is to >> solve problems in simple and clean ways by providing simple and clean >> facilities. > > There a lot of examples. Forthers often provokes other programmers > to conflict, presenting all in Forth as features. This may include > syntax. Of course, this leads to misunderstanding, and requests to > modify Forth looks very strong. I see no reasons to keep THROW after > each file IO, to keep E in floating number etc. In my view this is complete lunacy. These are pointless differences and lead to nothing but chaos. >> > So when C++ programmer comes and ask 'can I have fopen/fread/fclose >> > in Forth?' the common answer is 'no, it is not allowed by Forth >> > standard!' >> >> That is utter nonsense. Absolute twenty-four carat nonsense on >> stilts. I don't know why you even bothered to write it. > > I don't understand your reaction. I met both C programmers who ask > me for Forth words renaming/altering and Forth programmers who wants > to keep all exactly as is. Nobody has ever said that you can't have fopen/fread/fclose in Forth. >> Forth has its own syntax, of course, but the commands are not very >> different. The Forth file I/O corresponds to the low-level file >> operations provided by many operating systems. Read, write, open, >> close, etc. Whatever you do isn't going to vary in a very substantial >> way. > > Really? Take a look and compare. Compare with what, for crying out loud? You've provided nothing to compare with! > You can start from the fact Windows API returns only one parameter. So what? Why should anyone care? >> What exactly do you want? Buffered I/O on top of the low-level words? >> It's hard to tell. > > Indeed, I have a list of things I have implemented different from > ANS. I have no goal to replace ANS with my (and only my) vision, but > I can see no real way to propose solution and make it accepted or > declined by transparent rules. Your proposals will not be accepted for standardization unless they are discussed and receive reasonably wide acceptance. To do that you have to persuade people that you have some idea what you're talking about. So far you have provided nothing and everything you have said has suggested that they are in no way more useful than what's there already. >> It seems to me that you're making a fundamental mistake. This mistake >> is to assume that if anyone disagrees with you about Forth >> standardzation they are "playing games." Has it not occured to you >> that they might honestly disagree with you? > > Having no results for 1 year means almost nothing. No results for 20 > years means everything. ? > I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each > man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be > taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems. Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about. One the one hand you say your ideas would be a better choice for standardization than what we have already; on the other hand you see no reasons to strictly fix one set of words in a standard. Which is it? Andrew.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 08:50 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <nimlm3$tbv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #47680 |
On 6/1/2016 3:54 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each >> man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be >> taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems. > > Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about. I second *that*! -- Rick C
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 07:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6fa677ce-2869-40d4-b30b-f3794135577c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47685 |
On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:50:13 AM UTC-7, rickman wrote: > On 6/1/2016 3:54 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: > > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each > >> man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be > >> taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems. > > > > Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about. > > I second *that*! Obviously, ANS-Forth has problems --- that is why it was a complete failure --- that is why everybody lost interest in Forth in 1994 and just switched over to C. Ilya --- debating with people such as Andrew Haley and Rickman is a waste of time. I have already been through this with John Passaniti and Alex McDonald. They will purposely misunderstand you, they will twist your words to make you look ridiculous, they will use straw-man arguments, and if none of that works then they will just say that your code "sucks" and is "crap" etc.. It is like wrestling with a pig --- you both get muddy, and the pig likes it --- ANS-Forth just has to be abandoned, but making ANS-Forth look pretty is like putting lipstick on the pig.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 10:58 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <nimt68$pef$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #47691 |
On 6/1/2016 10:38 AM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote: > On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:50:13 AM UTC-7, rickman wrote: >> On 6/1/2016 3:54 AM, Andrew Haley wrote: >>> Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each >>>> man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be >>>> taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems. >>> >>> Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about. >> >> I second *that*! > > Obviously, ANS-Forth has problems --- that is why it was a complete failure --- that is why everybody lost interest in Forth in 1994 and just switched over to C. > > Ilya --- debating with people such as Andrew Haley and Rickman is a waste of time. I have already been through this with John Passaniti and Alex McDonald. They will purposely misunderstand you, they will twist your words to make you look ridiculous, they will use straw-man arguments, and if none of that works then they will just say that your code "sucks" and is "crap" etc... > > It is like wrestling with a pig --- you both get muddy, and the pig likes it --- ANS-Forth just has to be abandoned, but making ANS-Forth look pretty is like putting lipstick on the pig. I agree. The best thing is for Hugh to abandon ANS-Forth and never discuss it again. -- Rick C
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 11:32 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <Ba6dnRHQHPisk9LKnZ2dnUU7-d3NnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #47694 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree. The best thing is for Hugh to abandon ANS-Forth and never > discuss it again. Mmm, but I don't think that Ilya is such a hopeless case. The trouble is that some of the time he seems to want more things to be standardized, and some of the time fewer. Some of the time he rejects the very idea of a standard as though he doesn't care whether it exists or not, and then he vociferously argues against parts of it. And some of the time he seems to be objecting to things that no-one has ever said or believes anyway. Andrew.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 17:10 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ninj0k$e7t$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #47697 |
On 6/1/2016 12:32 PM, Andrew Haley wrote: > rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I agree. The best thing is for Hugh to abandon ANS-Forth and never >> discuss it again. > > Mmm, but I don't think that Ilya is such a hopeless case. The trouble > is that some of the time he seems to want more things to be > standardized, and some of the time fewer. Some of the time he rejects > the very idea of a standard as though he doesn't care whether it > exists or not, and then he vociferously argues against parts of it. > And some of the time he seems to be objecting to things that no-one > has ever said or believes anyway. I don't know. I can't tell exactly what Ilya is complaining about. The posts seem to be rather vague talking about non-standard file IO which file IO is not standard. The POSIX spec is between the application and the OS, not between the user and the development tools. I really don't know what Ilya is not happy about with Forth. Do you? -- Rick C
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 17:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0d3b19c2-b8c5-4406-ae36-d42e24b66b04@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47680 |
среда, 1 июня 2016 г., 10:54:16 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > > I can show at least two sets of file IO. From old Turbo-Pascal we > > have open rewrite readfile close, and from C family of languages we > > have fopen fread (fscanf) fclose. I see no reasons to strictly fix > > one set of words in standard. > > We can't have shared library code otherwise. Is that not a reason? Of couse no! How many lines of code do you expect at this level? Having good syntax is more important than illusory ability to use some kind of shared libraries. With fixed poor syntax you will carry a lot of bad code through your project at all levels instead of making addition level of wrappers right on the start. Note, wrappers is better to build on OS API rather that on a pyramid 'OS API -> ANS Forth file IO extension'. > > There a lot of examples. Forthers often provokes other programmers > > to conflict, presenting all in Forth as features. This may include > > syntax. Of course, this leads to misunderstanding, and requests to > > modify Forth looks very strong. I see no reasons to keep THROW after > > each file IO, to keep E in floating number etc. > > In my view this is complete lunacy. These are pointless differences > and lead to nothing but chaos. You told you don't use Forth right now. It seems it is better to ask first how it can be possible to invite programmers to Forth and make them happy. Forth is 1) flexible 2) unknown for most programmers. How do you ever expect they will agree with you rules, if they feel no respect to traditions in Forth? 1.23 is absolutely common format for floating point numbers. No reason to demand E here (but is it possible, of course). Double size integers are Forth-specific and have only historical interest. Try to explain to mainstream language programmer why E is necessary (and try to not to make him laugh). > > Nobody has ever said that you can't have fopen/fread/fclose in Forth. '> We can't have shared library code otherwise. Is that not a reason?' ? :) > > Really? Take a look and compare. > > Compare with what, for crying out loud? You've provided nothing to > compare with! Should I search for you requests like 'C++ file operations', 'Java file operations' etc.? > > You can start from the fact Windows API returns only one parameter. > > So what? Why should anyone care? I wonder why I must write THROW many times throghout all my programs just to feel I'm writing ANS-compatible code. Don't show to a new programmer how file operations are implemented in Forth and see how he will implement it. Probably, he will write a simple wrapper around OS function. Of course, if you want to hear 'ANS is perfect', nobody should care. > Your proposals will not be accepted for standardization unless they > are discussed and receive reasonably wide acceptance. To do that you It seems my team at least comparable with Forth Inc. Sanctions is a real help for now, we greatly need to expand our company because of huge wave of contracts for IT. Many commercial companies in Russua thinks Europe is unreliable partner and asks for software and electronic devices replacement. In addition, there is a strong government support for this kind of projects. Tell me please, what kind of permission or acceptance I need to receive? If you cannot tell how to use Forth, I don't want to share your dreams how it may be used in virtual reality. > have to persuade people that you have some idea what you're talking > about. So far you have provided nothing and everything you have said > has suggested that they are in no way more useful than what's there > already. This 'useful' seems to has zero income. > > Having no results for 1 year means almost nothing. No results for 20 > > years means everything. > > ? If you want to bring a strong scientific part to your project, this is normal to spent more than one year to achieve good results. If you only promise results for 20 years, it means failure even for fundamental scientific research. > > I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each > > man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be > > taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems. > > Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about. May be it is becaise nobody has a real project? When you have budget and deadline, all useless things will be dismissed very quickly. If you still think you can use 20+ years old document to write program today, this means you have no problem because you have no project. > One the one hand you say your ideas would be a better choice for > standardization than what we have already; on the other hand you see > no reasons to strictly fix one set of words in a standard. > > Which is it? This is an approach I want to bring here. Don't dictate non-important things, let programmers decide, how they want to name their functions. Forth is not a wide-known language to dictate anything and has no well-known libraries to share. Show to programmers how things can be done in Forth and rely on their initiative. No matter 5 copies of 100-lines library will appears, but you will have 5 forthers in your team.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 17:57 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <GO2dndqwJcoGM9LKnZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #47704 |
On 6/1/16 2:04 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote: среда, 1 июня 2016 г., 10:54:16 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал: > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: >>> I never state what other forthers must do immediately, this is each >>> > > man's own decision. However, sooner or later proper actions must be >>> > > taken. Note I'm not talking about my problems. >> > >> > Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about. > May be it is becaise nobody has a real project? When you have budget and > deadline, all useless things will be dismissed very quickly. If you still > think you can use 20+ years old document to write program today, this > means you have no problem because you have no project. For nearly 40 years FORTH, Inc. has operated in a world of real projects with budgets and deadlines. Forth was born in such a world, and hardly alone. Look at the list of members of the ANS Forth TC: in addition to Forth vendors and small businesses, the participants in developing this standard included programmers from Ford Motor Co., Johns Hopkins Univ. Applied Physics Lab, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Computer Sciences Corp., Harris Semiconductor, IBM, IEEE, NIST (the main US standards organization), Purdue Univ., and Texas Instruments. These companies know about budgets and deadlines. >> > One the one hand you say your ideas would be a better choice for >> > standardization than what we have already; on the other hand you see >> > no reasons to strictly fix one set of words in a standard. >> > >> > Which is it? > > This is an approach I want to bring here. Don't dictate non-important > things, let programmers decide, how they want to name their functions. > Forth is not a wide-known language to dictate anything and has no > well-known libraries to share. Show to programmers how things can be > done in Forth and rely on their initiative. No matter 5 copies of > 100-lines library will appears, but you will have 5 forthers in your team. For over 30 years I was involved in recruiting, training, and managing Forth teams. Following the adoption of ANS Forth, most of the Forths on the market quickly adapted, and it became much, much easier to recruit programmers for projects. I've also learned the value of establishing team-wide mutually-agreed practices for naming, formatting, etc., and that helps enormously in sharing code within a team, although that isn't really part of the standards discussion. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 22:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2dc835ca-dcc9-4784-b428-bccc492be0ce@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47710 |
On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 8:57:17 PM UTC-7, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> On 6/1/16 2:04 PM, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> среда, 1 июня 2016 г., 10:54:16 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал:
> >> > Nobody here has any idea what problems you're talking about.
> > May be it is becaise nobody has a real project? When you have budget and
> > deadline, all useless things will be dismissed very quickly. If you still
> > think you can use 20+ years old document to write program today, this
> > means you have no problem because you have no project.
Ilya is right about this. People push for nonsense such as recognizers because they consider Forth to be a toy, and they want it to be a pretty toy --- nobody who writes Forth professionally wants this.
> For nearly 40 years FORTH, Inc. has operated in a world of real projects
> with budgets and deadlines. Forth was born in such a world, and hardly
> alone. Look at the list of members of the ANS Forth TC: in addition to
> Forth vendors and small businesses, the participants in developing this
> standard included programmers from Ford Motor Co., Johns Hopkins Univ.
> Applied Physics Lab, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Computer Sciences
> Corp., Harris Semiconductor, IBM, IEEE, NIST (the main US standards
> organization), Purdue Univ., and Texas Instruments. These companies know
> about budgets and deadlines.
What I remember about the late 1980s and early 1990s is that UR/Forth (from Ray Duncan's company LMI) was the only professional Forth system available in the MS-DOS world. There were other Forth systems, and they may have been used professionally on occasion, but UR/Forth was the Forth to know if you wanted a job.
When I interviewed at Testra, they didn't ask me if I knew Forth. They asked me if I knew UR/Forth. I had to explain in detail the inner workings of UR/Forth to prove that I had disassembled it extensively and knew it thoroughly.
Nowadays, the only professional Forth system available in the Windows world is VFX. Anybody who wants a job has to be able to write code like this:
: rexit ( -- ) rdrop ;
: (r:) ( -- r ) r@ 5 + ; \ 5 is the size of a JMP instruction in 32-bit x86
: r[ ( -- r ) postpone (r:) postpone ahead ; immediate
: ]r ( -- ) postpone rexit postpone then ; immediate
code rcall ( r -- ) \ in VFX the LF is in EDI
push edi \ this is the HOF's LF which won't be used by the quotation
mov edi, 0 [edi] \ this is the parent's LF which will be used in the quotation
call ' execute
pop edi \ restore HOF's LF
next, end-code
This is a trivial example of VFX programming --- I don't show all my code on comp.lang.forth --- I'm not really into working for free.
My novice-package that I did provide publicly is entirely written in ANS-Forth --- writing software within the weird and pointless restrictions of ANS-Forth is just a hobby --- it is about as difficult as building a ship in a bottle, and about as useful.
> For over 30 years I was involved in recruiting, training, and managing
> Forth teams. Following the adoption of ANS Forth, most of the Forths on
> the market quickly adapted, and it became much, much easier to recruit
> programmers for projects. I've also learned the value of establishing
> team-wide mutually-agreed practices for naming, formatting, etc., and
> that helps enormously in sharing code within a team, although that isn't
> really part of the standards discussion.
This is the speech of a career sales-person --- total bullshit!
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 04:31 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c9f914de-53bc-46bf-ab1b-7123496ba694@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #47710 |
четверг, 2 июня 2016 г., 6:57:17 UTC+3 пользователь Elizabeth D. Rather написал: > > May be it is becaise nobody has a real project? When you have budget and > > deadline, all useless things will be dismissed very quickly. If you still > > think you can use 20+ years old document to write program today, this > > means you have no problem because you have no project. > > For nearly 40 years FORTH, Inc. has operated in a world of real projects > with budgets and deadlines. Forth was born in such a world, and hardly > alone. Look at the list of members of the ANS Forth TC: in addition to > Forth vendors and small businesses, the participants in developing this > standard included programmers from Ford Motor Co., Johns Hopkins Univ. > Applied Physics Lab, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Computer Sciences > Corp., Harris Semiconductor, IBM, IEEE, NIST (the main US standards > organization), Purdue Univ., and Texas Instruments. These companies know > about budgets and deadlines. This looks to be useful for Forth Inc only. When a new user comes to see how Forth can help him, he hasn't 40-years background. If you suggest him to learn 30-40 most important words, he will be able to continue. If you increase this list to 300-400 words from ANS, he is probably decline your suggestion. There is no need to teach how to open file or draw graphics. > For over 30 years I was involved in recruiting, training, and managing > Forth teams. Following the adoption of ANS Forth, most of the Forths on > the market quickly adapted, and it became much, much easier to recruit > programmers for projects. I've also learned the value of establishing > team-wide mutually-agreed practices for naming, formatting, etc., and > that helps enormously in sharing code within a team, although that isn't > really part of the standards discussion. And, finally, Forth Inc has several full-time programmers? Can't you see overall results for Forth in the world? The common mistake of small communities is ignoring reality and thinking you are a part of elite and no one can understand the power of your ideas. Yes, having a list of ~40 companies is not bad. What about to do the same with other teams? As I can see, you can only refer to ANS and Forth Inc success. This is not suited for beginners and not required for skilled programmers.
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