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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #46348 > unrolled thread
| Started by | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-03-30 21:39 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-03-31 23:23 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 119 — 10 participants |
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New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 21:39 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-30 18:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-30 20:31 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 23:41 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 00:37 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 14:36 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-04-01 00:42 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 13:09 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-04-01 23:43 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-01 17:28 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-04-02 12:10 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-31 17:07 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-03-31 23:59 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-04-01 00:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 12:47 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 18:54 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 22:08 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 19:36 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 23:28 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 22:32 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 02:39 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 04:42 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick josv@planet.nl - 2016-04-01 04:48 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 05:50 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-04-01 13:35 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 13:11 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 01:58 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 10:15 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 08:02 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:39 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:54 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-02 15:14 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 22:14 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-02 23:08 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 02:11 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-03 22:54 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 02:50 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 16:37 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:15 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:21 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:01 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:17 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 01:15 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 12:50 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 23:21 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:29 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:02 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 02:07 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:12 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:12 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:22 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 01:22 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 02:12 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:15 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-05 17:14 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 03:03 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-04 19:51 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 20:18 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-04 20:44 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 22:39 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:25 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 16:23 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:18 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:22 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 13:34 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 21:28 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:34 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-01 15:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 01:55 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 22:38 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 23:10 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 16:28 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 22:35 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 21:40 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 22:13 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 22:44 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 02:41 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 01:26 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 02:02 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 09:06 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 05:09 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 03:50 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 19:23 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 16:29 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-07 11:32 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 15:38 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 09:45 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 11:04 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 17:36 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 17:39 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 14:08 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-08 10:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-05-08 14:57 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-08 13:23 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 09:26 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 10:26 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 09:38 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 12:58 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 22:53 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 22:41 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 11:08 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 13:21 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 23:39 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 19:03 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 21:44 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-10 08:28 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-10 12:34 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-10 22:27 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 09:16 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 14:01 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:26 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 19:09 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-31 21:41 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:10 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 12:37 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-01 15:35 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 18:11 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 19:47 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:23 -0700
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 00:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <79e16e60-0112-4a21-90c0-aaa899968239@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46501 |
marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:48 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > On 4/5/2016 2:15 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > > luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 23:37:05 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > >> On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > >>> > >>>> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): > >>>> > >>>> http://www.espruino.com/Pico > >>>> > >>>> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, > >>>> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a > >>>> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very > >>>> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. > >>> > >>> Wow, that's expensive :D > >>> You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... > >> > >> I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 > >> for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 > >> all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Rick > > > > Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. The $10 is only BOM I admit > > and practically you would need to make 100 pcbs to get to a fair price. > > But the pcb is very small, and 100 of them will be just a medium size board > > in fact. > > All in all, you can make 100 of them at $10 with no problem. That's why I said > > $25 is quite high price :) > > For these money, I won't have any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 > > boards, and I would sel, them at $15 not $25. > > Only that I'm not in this market... > > Did you read what you wrote? > > "You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one..." > > -- > > Rick Don't get it such mot a mot... If you need only one resistor, would you buy only one? You even can't. But, as I said, if you make a decent 100 pcbs, and buy the other components at min. qty., and you will stuff only one board afterwards, you will get that board around $10 BOM. Min. qty. for the mcu is 1, and you get it with $7. All the rest cannot be more than $3. Of course, after stuffing one board, you will get some components/pcbs in stock. That's always happening, even if you are just a hobbyist.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 03:17 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndvokn$l78$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46506 |
On 4/5/2016 3:01 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:48 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >> On 4/5/2016 2:15 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>> luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 23:37:05 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >>>> On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.espruino.com/Pico >>>>>> >>>>>> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, >>>>>> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a >>>>>> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very >>>>>> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. >>>>> >>>>> Wow, that's expensive :D >>>>> You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... >>>> >>>> I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 >>>> for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 >>>> all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Rick >>> >>> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. The $10 is only BOM I admit >>> and practically you would need to make 100 pcbs to get to a fair price. >>> But the pcb is very small, and 100 of them will be just a medium size board >>> in fact. >>> All in all, you can make 100 of them at $10 with no problem. That's why I said >>> $25 is quite high price :) >>> For these money, I won't have any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 >>> boards, and I would sel, them at $15 not $25. >>> Only that I'm not in this market... >> >> Did you read what you wrote? >> >> "You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one...." >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > Don't get it such mot a mot... I don't understand this. > If you need only one resistor, would you buy only one? You even can't. > But, as I said, if you make a decent 100 pcbs, and buy the other > components at min. qty., and you will stuff only one board afterwards, > you will get that board around $10 BOM. Min. qty. for the mcu is 1, and > you get it with $7. All the rest cannot be more than $3. > Of course, after stuffing one board, you will get some components/pcbs > in stock. That's always happening, even if you are just a hobbyist. I have lots of excess parts I've bought and never used. That doesn't mean I didn't pay for them. If you buy 100 of something to build one, you've still paid for 100. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 01:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c956563e-e65a-4756-aead-1901ed9f243a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46510 |
marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 10:17:49 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > On 4/5/2016 3:01 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > > marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:48 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > >> On 4/5/2016 2:15 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > >>> luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 23:37:05 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > >>>> On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://www.espruino.com/Pico > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, > >>>>>> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a > >>>>>> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very > >>>>>> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. > >>>>> > >>>>> Wow, that's expensive :D > >>>>> You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... > >>>> > >>>> I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 > >>>> for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 > >>>> all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> Rick > >>> > >>> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. The $10 is only BOM I admit > >>> and practically you would need to make 100 pcbs to get to a fair price. > >>> But the pcb is very small, and 100 of them will be just a medium size board > >>> in fact. > >>> All in all, you can make 100 of them at $10 with no problem. That's why I said > >>> $25 is quite high price :) > >>> For these money, I won't have any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 > >>> boards, and I would sel, them at $15 not $25. > >>> Only that I'm not in this market... > >> > >> Did you read what you wrote? > >> > >> "You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one...." > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Rick > > > > Don't get it such mot a mot... > > I don't understand this. > > > > If you need only one resistor, would you buy only one? You even can't. > > But, as I said, if you make a decent 100 pcbs, and buy the other > > components at min. qty., and you will stuff only one board afterwards, > > you will get that board around $10 BOM. Min. qty. for the mcu is 1, and > > you get it with $7. All the rest cannot be more than $3. > > Of course, after stuffing one board, you will get some components/pcbs > > in stock. That's always happening, even if you are just a hobbyist. > > I have lots of excess parts I've bought and never used. That doesn't > mean I didn't pay for them. If you buy 100 of something to build one, > you've still paid for 100. > > -- > > Rick You are not alone. I have many excess componets too, ones that I don't know if I will use it anymore... The question is: if you buy 100 pcs. to use only one would you load the final price with the whole lot cost? Or the unit cost?
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 12:50 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ne0q7b$iv5$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46515 |
On 4/5/2016 4:15 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 10:17:49 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >> On 4/5/2016 3:01 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>> marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:48 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >>>> On 4/5/2016 2:15 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>>>> luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 23:37:05 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >>>>>> On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.espruino.com/Pico >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, >>>>>>>> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a >>>>>>>> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very >>>>>>>> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow, that's expensive :D >>>>>>> You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... >>>>>> >>>>>> I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 >>>>>> for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 >>>>>> all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Rick >>>>> >>>>> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. The $10 is only BOM I admit >>>>> and practically you would need to make 100 pcbs to get to a fair price. >>>>> But the pcb is very small, and 100 of them will be just a medium size board >>>>> in fact. >>>>> All in all, you can make 100 of them at $10 with no problem. That's why I said >>>>> $25 is quite high price :) >>>>> For these money, I won't have any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 >>>>> boards, and I would sel, them at $15 not $25. >>>>> Only that I'm not in this market... >>>> >>>> Did you read what you wrote? >>>> >>>> "You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one...." >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Rick >>> >>> Don't get it such mot a mot... >> >> I don't understand this. >> >> >>> If you need only one resistor, would you buy only one? You even can't. >>> But, as I said, if you make a decent 100 pcbs, and buy the other >>> components at min. qty., and you will stuff only one board afterwards, >>> you will get that board around $10 BOM. Min. qty. for the mcu is 1, and >>> you get it with $7. All the rest cannot be more than $3. >>> Of course, after stuffing one board, you will get some components/pcbs >>> in stock. That's always happening, even if you are just a hobbyist. >> >> I have lots of excess parts I've bought and never used. That doesn't >> mean I didn't pay for them. If you buy 100 of something to build one, >> you've still paid for 100. >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > You are not alone. I have many excess componets too, ones that I don't know > if I will use it anymore... The question is: if you buy 100 pcs. to use only one > would you load the final price with the whole lot cost? Or the unit cost? Absolutely. I sell a board that is ordered by one customer sporadically. My fab house normally orders just the parts needed for that run even if it would be advantageous to order more (which I've tried to discuss with them). But sometimes they have to order more due to minimums. The full purchases get factored into my unit price and my profit changes accordingly. If the board becomes obsolete with inventory sitting on the shelf, that will just be my loss. My point was that you talked about the price of building *one* unit. If you say "one" unit, then deal with what it costs to build "one" unit. That's why people will pay $25 for a tiny MCU board if they want that board. It is just way cheaper than building their own plus the cost of their considerable time, unless the entire thing is a project of love... which we all know you can't put a price tag on. -- Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 23:21 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <878u0sr2wy.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46499 |
Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: >> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. > Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have > any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell > them at $15 not $25. That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your addition of a 0.20 SPI flash.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 02:29 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndvlqq$dg6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46502 |
On 4/5/2016 2:21 AM, Paul Rubin wrote: > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: >>> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. >> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have >> any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell >> them at $15 not $25. > > That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the > parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU > so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot > cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered > for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your > addition of a 0.20 SPI flash. Wow, 5x the parts cost is pretty high I think. Not sure why only parts cost would be used. I sell boards at 3.5x the fabrication costs and feel I am committing highway robbery. I've always heard 2x. But it depends a lot on the amount of effort required to get the thing up and running vs. the volume of units that can be sold. That's why the rPi zero can be sold for $5. They have very little overhead and no profit required, mated to a very high volume. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 00:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <73b74abe-8f4e-45d2-bc81-95778178b718@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46504 |
marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:29:51 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > On 4/5/2016 2:21 AM, Paul Rubin wrote: > > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > >>> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. > >> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have > >> any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell > >> them at $15 not $25. > > > > That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the > > parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU > > so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot > > cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered > > for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your > > addition of a 0.20 SPI flash. > > Wow, 5x the parts cost is pretty high I think. Not sure why only parts > cost would be used. I sell boards at 3.5x the fabrication costs and > feel I am committing highway robbery. I've always heard 2x. But it > depends a lot on the amount of effort required to get the thing up and > running vs. the volume of units that can be sold. That's why the rPi > zero can be sold for $5. They have very little overhead and no profit > required, mated to a very high volume. > > -- > > Rick Usually I sell boards at 2x. Sometimes higher but it highly depends on the value added (read: firmware complexity) and the number of units expected to be sold.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 02:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <874mbgqv8s.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46504 |
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: > That's why the rPi zero can be sold for $5. They have very little > overhead and no profit required, mated to a very high volume. They're also not selling them, except dribbling out minimal quantities while they have plenty of pi 3's. They're probably losing money on them. I suspect it was a publicity stunt in response to C.H.I.P. If you really want one, they are selling in the $20 range on ebay. The 5x figure was for a supported, packaged product sold through a middleman so maybe it can be less for other kinds of products, I guess. But looking at what places like Adafruit charge for boards they make, they need a significant cost multiple to pay their bills with.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 13:12 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ne0rfd$od9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46518 |
On 4/5/2016 5:07 AM, Paul Rubin wrote: > rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes: >> That's why the rPi zero can be sold for $5. They have very little >> overhead and no profit required, mated to a very high volume. > > They're also not selling them, except dribbling out minimal quantities > while they have plenty of pi 3's. They're probably losing money on > them. I suspect it was a publicity stunt in response to C.H.I.P. If > you really want one, they are selling in the $20 range on ebay. I don't think you actually understand the rPi Foundation. Go to their web site. They are having production issues and the volumes should increase any day. My local Microcenter has units in stock... well they did the other day, now they have 1 left. lol They should be getting shipments from rPi every other week. Don't know how many but clearly not yet enough to satisfy demand. > The 5x figure was for a supported, packaged product sold through a > middleman so maybe it can be less for other kinds of products, I guess. > But looking at what places like Adafruit charge for boards they make, > they need a significant cost multiple to pay their bills with. Not sure who you are talking about. Too many pronouns. I keep wanting to buy a Pi zero, but I don't actually have an immediate need. I also have a camera module that I've yet to plug into a unit. I am thinking of getting a Pi 3 to run KiCAD on. Ultimately I'd like to have something smaller than a laptop that I can cart around and simply hook up to a monitor and a keyboard to do all my work on. It would have USB peripherals for an oscilloscope/logic analyzer and maybe more. A Pi zero would not be bad for this if I add a bluetooth dongle and use wireless keyboard and mouse, but likely not enough horsepower... but I don't know for sure. I've yet to see much on using KiCAD on the rPi (any version), but I know the rPi original isn't so good for even web surfing. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 00:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <cc8245c4-e0fb-44b6-b1c9-5dbd6c635c01@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46502 |
marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:50 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > >> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. > > Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have > > any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell > > them at $15 not $25. > > That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the > parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU > so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot > cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered > for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your > addition of a 0.20 SPI flash. If you have spi flash, you don't need the fram inside the mcu. My "proposed" design with a cortex-m0 can run a tokenized forth directly from the serial flash quite fast. With the cpu at 48Hz I can get the spi at 24MHz. Will be faster than many native forths on older micros. Not to say that you can use a "pipeline", executing the forth primitive while the spi is fetching the next opcode. The only limiting factor will be the RAM, but an 8K ram seems pretty decent to me, compared with 2K of the atmega for example... I always wanted to make a forth engine running directly from a spi flash... lack of time...
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 03:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndvou9$n15$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46508 |
On 4/5/2016 3:12 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:50 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: >> Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: >>>> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. >>> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have >>> any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell >>> them at $15 not $25. >> >> That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the >> parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU >> so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot >> cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered >> for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your >> addition of a 0.20 SPI flash. > > If you have spi flash, you don't need the fram inside the mcu. > My "proposed" design with a cortex-m0 can run a tokenized forth > directly from the serial flash quite fast. With the cpu at 48Hz > I can get the spi at 24MHz. Will be faster than many native > forths on older micros. Not to say that you can use a "pipeline", > executing the forth primitive while the spi is fetching the next > opcode. The only limiting factor will be the RAM, but an 8K ram > seems pretty decent to me, compared with 2K of the atmega for example... > I always wanted to make a forth engine running directly from a > spi flash... lack of time... I think you miss the value of the FRAM. People are attracted to the FRAM because it allows direct modification of executable memory without the lengthy waits and limited number of program cycles. I think it also has power advantages, but I don't recall the details on that. The FRAM is a very useful feature in Forth processors during development. I think this board is supposed to be an educational device, so the FRAM would be advantageous. Not sure it is required for the $4 price goal however. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 01:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <50caa4ea-c3eb-4cf6-aed1-204ee234434b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46511 |
marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 10:22:55 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > On 4/5/2016 3:12 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > > marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:50 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: > >> Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > >>>> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. > >>> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have > >>> any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell > >>> them at $15 not $25. > >> > >> That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the > >> parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU > >> so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot > >> cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered > >> for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your > >> addition of a 0.20 SPI flash. > > > > If you have spi flash, you don't need the fram inside the mcu. > > My "proposed" design with a cortex-m0 can run a tokenized forth > > directly from the serial flash quite fast. With the cpu at 48Hz > > I can get the spi at 24MHz. Will be faster than many native > > forths on older micros. Not to say that you can use a "pipeline", > > executing the forth primitive while the spi is fetching the next > > opcode. The only limiting factor will be the RAM, but an 8K ram > > seems pretty decent to me, compared with 2K of the atmega for example... > > I always wanted to make a forth engine running directly from a > > spi flash... lack of time... > > I think you miss the value of the FRAM. People are attracted to the > FRAM because it allows direct modification of executable memory without > the lengthy waits and limited number of program cycles. I think it also > has power advantages, but I don't recall the details on that. > > The FRAM is a very useful feature in Forth processors during > development. I think this board is supposed to be an educational > device, so the FRAM would be advantageous. Not sure it is required for > the $4 price goal however. > > -- > > Rick I don't miss the FRAM value. I use fram parts (i2c ones) on some of my designs, for their value (for storing some non-volatile counters). For developing, I never found the flash memory being limiting on number of cycles or programming time. Speaking of FRAM, I know that the FRAM memory has limited number of cycles for both read and write - not only for write like the flash. 10^14 is quite a number, but when executing a program from FRAM (read cycles) that can be not enough... especially on tight loops... Maybe this is the reason TI included some normal SRAM on the chips?
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 02:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87zit8pgfb.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46516 |
Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > Speaking of FRAM, I know that the FRAM memory has limited number of > cycles for both read and write - not only for write like the flash. > 10^14 is quite a number, but when executing a program from FRAM > (read cycles) that can be not enough... especially on tight loops... > Maybe this is the reason TI included some normal SRAM on the chips? I don't know about read wear, but yes, that's why there's SRAM, which is also a little bit faster than FRAM. I'd put the stacks and address interpreter and a few other critical things in SRAM and the rest in FRAM or off-chip flash. That might use 0.5k of SRAM leaving a fair amount for user code and variables that they could put there. FRAM sounds way better than flash since you don't have to erase pages (slow and burns energy etc). You just update it a word at a time like ram.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 13:15 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ne0rl4$od9$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46516 |
On 4/5/2016 4:22 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 10:22:55 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >> On 4/5/2016 3:12 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>> marți, 5 aprilie 2016, 09:21:50 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: >>>> Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>> Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. >>>>> Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. .. I won't have >>>>> any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sell >>>>> them at $15 not $25. >>>> >>>> That sounds pretty optimistic... I always heard to sell stuff at 5x the >>>> parts cost... maybe for something like this, 3x is ok. Why is that CPU >>>> so expensive? Doing the same thing with a few separate parts is a lot >>>> cheaper, I think. But anyway, the board is fairly seriously overpowered >>>> for Forth. Something like the ChipStick is fine, especially with your >>>> addition of a 0.20 SPI flash. >>> >>> If you have spi flash, you don't need the fram inside the mcu. >>> My "proposed" design with a cortex-m0 can run a tokenized forth >>> directly from the serial flash quite fast. With the cpu at 48Hz >>> I can get the spi at 24MHz. Will be faster than many native >>> forths on older micros. Not to say that you can use a "pipeline", >>> executing the forth primitive while the spi is fetching the next >>> opcode. The only limiting factor will be the RAM, but an 8K ram >>> seems pretty decent to me, compared with 2K of the atmega for example.... >>> I always wanted to make a forth engine running directly from a >>> spi flash... lack of time... >> >> I think you miss the value of the FRAM. People are attracted to the >> FRAM because it allows direct modification of executable memory without >> the lengthy waits and limited number of program cycles. I think it also >> has power advantages, but I don't recall the details on that. >> >> The FRAM is a very useful feature in Forth processors during >> development. I think this board is supposed to be an educational >> device, so the FRAM would be advantageous. Not sure it is required for >> the $4 price goal however. >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > I don't miss the FRAM value. I use fram parts (i2c ones) on some of > my designs, for their value (for storing some non-volatile counters). > For developing, I never found the flash memory being limiting on > number of cycles or programming time. > > Speaking of FRAM, I know that the FRAM memory has limited number of > cycles for both read and write - not only for write like the flash. > 10^14 is quite a number, but when executing a program from FRAM > (read cycles) that can be not enough... especially on tight loops... > Maybe this is the reason TI included some normal SRAM on the chips? FRAM is far slower than RAM on writes. So it isn't ready to compete with RAM. But FRAM is far faster than Flash. I think it takes low microseconds for a write. I'm not digging to read the data sheet just now. -- Rick
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| From | David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 17:14 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <GKWdnZA9io4ypZnKnZ2dnUU7-U_NnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #46516 |
On 04/05/2016 03:22 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > Speaking of FRAM, I know that the FRAM memory has limited number of > cycles for both read and write - not only for write like the flash. > 10^14 is quite a number, but when executing a program from FRAM (read > cycles) that can be not enough... especially on tight loops... Maybe > this is the reason TI included some normal SRAM on the chips? > FRAM has a destructive read so every read requires that the data be written back. Unless you like your memory to be of the read once variety. The MSP430 FRAM controller handles the write back automatically and also provides a little bit of cache. The cache also helps when you use a CPU clock faster than the FRAM speed which for the FR5969 is 8MHz. As a practical matter, the FRAM endurance limitation isn't a problem. As an example, the FR5969 has a maximum clock speed of 16MHz and FRAM endurance of 10^15 cycles. The fastest possible loop that accesses FRAM (remember the cache) that I have thought of runs about 500ns per loop. So that useless program would run for 5X10^8 seconds at least. (~16 years) Then adjust for practical loops that do something and the normal practice of putting the MSP430 into a low power mode most of the time and FRAM endurance will be much longer than that. -- David W. Schultz http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz Returned for Regrooving
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 03:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e656db1f-abf4-40d0-a7eb-1f352917f40f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46459 |
luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 08:54:49 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > > Than you would get toward $9. Still one digit price. I don't > > understand this lowest cost race. You always get what you paid for. > > Yeah, I still don't understand the vision of this board. A miniaturized > Apple II with a retro 70's-style dev environment? A little embeddable > board to stick inside projects like Arduino Nanos are currently used? > An educational thing to be handed out by the 100's at scouting events? > I don't understand it too. They are probably meant for educational use or just hobby/prototyping. The thing is I never use such boards, not even for prototyping. I do use modules, depending on the project, but designed by myself. For example I currently have two small modules based on an LPC4088 (cortex-m4, 512K flash, 96K ram) with 8Mbytes serial flash and 8MB/32MB external sdram. One has connectors (0.8mm pitch), one has only pads for soldering (like many RF modules these days). One of them also has a very high quality audio codec on board - just needed for the intended application... But these modules are designed for some clear applications in mind initially, with some degree of generality - to be used on more than one application. I never sold them isolated. As I said, I can't sell such "retail" items. Unless some retailer will be interested... But again, what is the value added? The design itself? I admit, one of the modules uses BGA packages (to be small) and it's just impossible to make it at home... Maybe that's the value added :)
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 19:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8945a5b4-b450-4a59-ae12-a4b7b682836e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46437 |
On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 5:11:18 AM UTC-4, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > duminică, 3 aprilie 2016, 09:09:06 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: > > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir.com> writes: > > > $1.5 sounds expensive. I know a cortex-m0 chip with 64K flash and 8K ram > > > in LQFP48 which is $1 qty1000 and $0.8 qty2500. A 4Mbit (512KB) serial flash > > > is $0.25 1000+. PCB + some other components (with a micro-usb connector... > > > There are cheaper MCUs with only 4K ram, but this sounds too limiting for > > > a forth system. The most limiting factor here is the RAM, it's hard to get > > > low prices for higher ram MCUs. But 8K seems quite ok. > > > > If you can compile to flash, 4k ram doesn't seem that bad. The > > msp430g2553 has 256 bytes, fwiw. And the Atmega328 found in zillions of > > arduinos has 2.5k. But yeah, with that SPI flash, you want some block > > buffers, so 8k is better. > > > > An usb interface like the Digispark's (the card plugs directly into a > > USB port, no connector) is probably cheaper than a micro usb. Photo: > > > > http://digistump.com/products/1 > > > > I have to admit puzzlement about the use cases for the board. That > > seems worth discussing in its own right. Most applications that > > interest me (though that's just me) need RTC which means a crystal > > adding cost. Maybe that could be optional. Built-in lipo charger is > > also nice--more cost. Etc. > > Than you would get toward $9. Still one digit price. > I don't understand this lowest cost race. You always get what you paid for. > No more. That's easy to explain: Before we started 4e4th on TI's G2 LaunchPad, we named it 4€4th, because at that time with TI's special offer it had been possible to sell TI's G2 LaunchPad as a 4€4th board for 4€ in Europe - or 4$ in the United States. But we couldn't get a website 4€4th.eu, so the name was changed to 4e4th, the website named www.4e4th.eu and we started our education initiative, naming our MSP430G2553 Forth "Forth for Education". Later TI increased the price of the board, and this chance was over anyway, but the education initiative was started already. So still there is some urge to sell a little Forth board for 4€ or 4$ to show what Forth can do in programming education. For now only a 4£ board would be feasible without problems. 4.4. is a memorable day.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 20:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87h9fgrbew.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46490 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: > So still there is some urge to sell a little Forth board for 4€ or 4$ > to show what Forth can do in programming education. > For now only a 4£ board would be feasible without problems. I see. It's easy to get Atmega boards on Ebay or presumably places like Alibaba for under $2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252067263517 They have more memory than the MSP430G2553 (32k flash, 2.5k ram, plus some eeprom) though they probably run Forth a bit slower due to the 8 bit architecture, though still much faster than old fashioned microcomputers. They should be able to run AmForth ok.
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| From | visualforth@rocketmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 20:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <04b9e58c-e7c0-4ffb-ad39-d42a77420299@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46492 |
On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 11:18:17 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote: > visualforth.com writes: > > So still there is some urge to sell a little Forth board for 4 EURO or 4$ > > to show what Forth can do in programming education. > > For now only a 4£ board would be feasible without problems. > > I see. It's easy to get Atmega boards on Ebay or presumably places like > Alibaba for under $2: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/252067263517 > > They have more memory than the MSP430G2553 (32k flash, 2.5k ram, plus > some eeprom) though they probably run Forth a bit slower due to the 8 > bit architecture, though still much faster than old fashioned > microcomputers. They should be able to run AmForth ok. Thanks, Paul! We don't have to chase the lowest price any more, doesn't make sense. But there is still the need for a little microprocessor board running on Forth for Education, supported by our Forth community. It's needed for the next generation of Forth programmers. There are so many promises out there in the Maker scene that it is totally easy to program with C or it's derivatives, but education professionals already recognized that this is not true and leaves kids frustrated, turning their back on programming. Forth is easy to learn and powerful. I myself had the experience to show kids at the electronica fair in Munich decades ago how to program in Forth - it was RSC-Forth back then - and soon after I started they told me where I had made typos. Amazing experience!
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
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| Date | 2016-04-04 22:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87d1q4r4uq.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46493 |
visualforth@rocketmail.com writes: > We don't have to chase the lowest price any more, doesn't make sense. > But there is still the need for a little microprocessor board running > on Forth for Education, supported by our Forth community. Maybe you want the BBC Micro Bit? > There are so many promises out there in the Maker scene that it is > totally easy to program with C or it's derivatives, but education > professionals already recognized that this is not true and leaves kids > frustrated, turning their back on programming. I'd agree that C is painful. The trend with educational computers these days (Raspberry Pi, Micro Bit) is to use interpreted languages like Python. Those use more machine resources, of course, but that's very affordable now. Forth on the Micro Bit sounds interesting.
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