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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #52536 > unrolled thread

I'm so conflicted...

Started byMark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com>
First post2016-11-11 03:47 -0800
Last post2016-11-16 12:33 -0800
Articles 7 on this page of 67 — 17 participants

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  I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-11 03:47 -0800
    I'm so conflicted... foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 04:37 -0800
    Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-11 05:29 -0800
      Re: I'm so conflicted... JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-11-11 05:33 -0800
      Re: I'm so conflicted... JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-11-11 05:35 -0800
      Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-11 20:02 -0500
        Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-12 10:59 +0000
          Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 11:21 -0500
            Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-12 21:30 +0000
              Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 23:18 -0500
                Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-13 12:28 +0000
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-13 10:50 -0800
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-13 19:14 +0000
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:11 -0500
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-14 09:44 +0000
          Re: I'm so conflicted... "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2016-11-20 01:51 +0000
        Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 10:32 -0800
          Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 13:52 -0500
            Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 11:55 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 23:19 -0500
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-13 18:16 -0800
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:14 -0500
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-14 09:51 +0000
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-14 04:04 -0800
                      Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 03:11 -0800
                        Re: I'm so conflicted... "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2016-11-20 23:50 +0000
          Re: I'm so conflicted... albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 20:11 +0100
    Re: I'm so conflicted... "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-12 00:34 +1100
    Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 16:19 -0800
      Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 10:34 -0800
        Re: I'm so conflicted... november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-11-12 12:35 -0800
          Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-12 11:46 -1000
            Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 15:23 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-12 18:13 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 23:23 -0500
                Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-12 20:55 -1000
              Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-12 20:46 -1000
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-13 01:06 -0800
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 12:59 -0800
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-13 18:27 -0800
                      Re: I'm so conflicted... Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 20:34 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-13 17:56 -0800
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-14 14:53 +1100
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-13 22:04 -1000
            Re: I'm so conflicted... albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-13 10:51 +0100
    Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 03:10 -0800
      Re: I'm so conflicted... "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-15 01:03 +1100
        Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 07:31 -0800
          Re: I'm so conflicted... foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-14 13:29 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 03:02 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 13:39 +0100
          Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-15 18:22 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-16 01:32 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-16 13:00 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-16 13:04 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-16 13:42 -0800
                  Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 12:28 -0800
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 22:14 -0800
                    Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-19 15:01 -0800
                      Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-19 16:55 -0800
                        Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 10:36 -0800
                          Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 10:43 -0800
                          Re: I'm so conflicted... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-20 11:15 -0800
                            Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 13:57 -0800
                          Re: I'm so conflicted... Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-28 13:26 -0500
            Re: I'm so conflicted... Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-11-16 10:25 +0000
              Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-16 12:33 -0800

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#52771

FromMark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com>
Date2016-11-20 10:36 -0800
Message-ID<36fdf559-726d-48f1-a15d-c37683ed2d7c@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#52743
No sounds like we're on the same wavelength, it's just that your idea of PLCs is from the 70s ;-)

The PLC I used to use (Allen Bradley ControlLogix) had 32 megabytes of RAM. They are capable of millions of instructions per second, and have fully typed languages (booleans,bytes,ints, dint, reals, floats, date-time). Very very sophisticated indeed capable of monitoring many hundreds of IO and talking numerous protocols (including TVP/IP) simultaneously. Most of them these days can be programmed using the IEC61131 standard, which includes ladder,  FBD (function block diagrams), sequential function charts (SFC) Instruction List (a very simple assembler type language) and lastly ST (structured text) which is a mind of cross between c and pascal. A modern plc can run multiple programs each written in a different 61131 language. And because the language is standardised once toy can program one type of plc the toy van move to a different platform with ease. Unlike forth where every system is different. My favourite machines are the Siemens S7 range.

They've come a long way since the 70s. Unlike Forth ;-)

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#52772

FromMark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com>
Date2016-11-20 10:43 -0800
Message-ID<186a6f97-1154-4e08-88f1-0b9b219c1a33@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#52771
Sorry for the terrible spelling. Tapping on my phone with my 5 year old daughter on my knee!  Toy=you. TVP=TCP etc!

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#52773

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2016-11-20 11:15 -0800
Message-ID<87twb2arom.fsf@nightsong.com>
In reply to#52771
Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> writes:
> The PLC I used to use (Allen Bradley ControlLogix) had 32 megabytes of
> RAM. They are capable of millions of instructions per second, and have
> fully typed languages (booleans,bytes,ints, dint, reals, floats,...

Interesting -- is that still different from what we would usually call a
computer instead of a PLC?

I had thought the original PLC's were implemented with relays or simple
switching elements and were programmed with ladder logic, which
persisted into the microprocessor era because control engineers
understood it, it had good verification methods, and it was hard to go
wrong because its range was so limited.  Once you get away from that,
are you not doing just ordinary programming?

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#52775

FromMark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com>
Date2016-11-20 13:57 -0800
Message-ID<51bffdd3-9597-4260-965a-39ea28c28d03@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#52773
All of that is still true. You can still program a PLC in ladder and do quite sophisticated things with it. For example I wrote a printer driver for Epson printers connected via serial port in ladder logic! The thing that is changed most is that you can now select the programming language/method that is most appropriate for the job. Also now it is possible to create library functions (again, in any of the languages) that can be used by other programmers. Much like defining classes in other languages, you define the interfaces, code the implementation and others can use them as black-boxes. I'm currently doing that in the water industry. Coding standard libraries that are tested once and used over and over again.

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#52927

FromWalter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Date2016-11-28 13:26 -0500
Message-ID<o1hstg$cuk$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to#52771
On 2016-11-20 1:36 PM, Mark Wills wrote:
> No sounds like we're on the same wavelength, it's just that your idea
> of PLCs is from the 70s ;-)
>
> The PLC I used to use (Allen Bradley ControlLogix) had 32 megabytes
> of RAM. They are capable of millions of instructions per second, and
>  have fully typed languages (booleans,bytes,ints, dint, reals,
> floats, date-time). Very very sophisticated indeed capable of
> monitoring many hundreds of IO and talking numerous protocols
> (including TVP/IP) simultaneously. Most of them these days can be
> programmed using the IEC61131 standard, which includes ladder,  FBD
> (function block diagrams), sequential function charts (SFC)
> Instruction List (a very simple assembler type language) and lastly
> ST (structured text) which is a mind of cross between c and pascal.
> A modern plc can run multiple programs each written in a different
> 61131 language. And because the language is standardised once toy
> can program one type of plc the toy van move to a different platform
> with ease. Unlike forth where every system is different. My
> favourite machines are the Siemens S7 range.
>
> They've come a long way since the 70s. Unlike Forth ;-)
>
IEC61131 has also evolved quite a bit. It is the common core of several
advanced languages. IOf you are interested in Mark's comments you might
also want to look at IEC61499 (2005) evolved from the work developed in
IEC61131.

This whole group of standards deals very well with parallel execution
environments.

A function may be located on the same processor a different processor or
a piece of specialized hardware. This is transparent to the application
developer.

w..

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#52669

FromJan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>
Date2016-11-16 10:25 +0000
Message-ID<20161116102554.2761c0c2@HP-6550b>
In reply to#52663
On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:22:04 -0800 (PST)
hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

> Anyway, my understanding of Python is that it is a scripting
> language. You write the actual code in C and then make a
> Python wrapper around it for the end user to use.

Python source is compiled to byte code. Most commonly the python
byte code is executed on a virtual stack machine.  

What is your definition of understanding?

Jan Coombs

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#52673

Fromhughaguilar96@gmail.com
Date2016-11-16 12:33 -0800
Message-ID<f520f07d-ad26-4896-a6bb-dc7766cd13bc@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#52669
On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 3:25:55 AM UTC-7, Jan Coombs wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:22:04 -0800 (PST)
> hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > Anyway, my understanding of Python is that it is a scripting
> > language. You write the actual code in C and then make a
> > Python wrapper around it for the end user to use.
> 
> Python source is compiled to byte code. Most commonly the python
> byte code is executed on a virtual stack machine.  

Everybody knows this --- what is your point?

> What is your definition of understanding?

Bernd Paysan calls me "stupid" --- you certainly have a funny way of saying the same thing --- what is the point of that?

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