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C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost?

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  C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-05-12 17:50 -0700
    Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-12 19:20 -0700
    Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-05-12 19:48 -0700
      Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-12 21:44 -0700
        Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Marcos Cruz <null_email_so_use_my_contact_page@programandala.net> - 2015-05-14 18:55 +0000
          Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-14 23:12 +0200
            Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 11:33 -0400
      Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-05-13 10:49 +0000
    Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-05-13 10:46 +0000
      Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 16:05 -0400
        Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 13:28 -0700
        Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-13 14:07 -0700
          Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-13 17:23 -0400
            Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-07 19:49 -0700
              Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 23:48 -0400
                Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-07 21:08 -0700
            Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-06-07 19:52 -0700
              Re: C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 23:49 -0400

#39053 — C.H.I.P - The World's First Nine Dollar Computer - Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost?

Is this the end of the low price computer race - or will we have the ultimate First Four Dollar Forth Computer some day?

Four guys from Oakland, California, founded NEXT THING CO. and started a Kickstarter project asking for a 50,000$ funding for their 9$-Computer, and got a pledge of more than 1,000,000$ from more than 20,000 backers. Exceptional!

Here is what they write:
C.H.I.P. is a computer for students, teachers, grandparents, children, artists, makers, hackers, and inventors. Everyone really. C.H.I.P. is a great way to add a computer to your life and the perfect way to power your computer based projects.

C.H.I.P. is a /real/ computer, and can run software written in all kinds of programming languages, so long as there's a compiler for them. Python, Ruby, PHP, C++, JS, Assembly, BF.. even our favorite, ArnoldC, and lots lots more.

Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost?

Sources:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer/video_share

Turn Your Raspberry Pi Prototypes into Products Ready For Market.
 http://nextthing.co/

The four founders: We build Smart Devices and the technology that powers them.
 http://nextthing.co/aboutus.html

STAK - An OS Built for Smart Devices that Loves Raspberry Pi.
 http://nextthing.co/stak.html

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#39056

visualforth@rocketmail.com writes:
> Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost?

It's basically a shrunken down Raspberry Pi and should be able to run
basically the same programs, i.e. gforth should work.  Whether they can
actually ship the thing at $9 without losing money has been a topic of
some debate.  The Rasperry Pi model A+ at $20 is already priced very
aggressively for the hardware you get.  With C.H.I.P. you will end
up needing some more accessories that cost extra, though.

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#39057

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 7:50:18 PM UTC-5, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost?

It's ARM Linux.  So: gforth requires miles and miles of build
system.  VFX Forth requires a few hundred dollars.  SwiftX
requires a thousand plus dollars and a separate computer.  Then
some other stuff might work, but nothing really ANS.  Probably
the most mature and reasonable alternative is 4th.

It's the same picture you see with every other ARM Linux.  I
blame Apple.

But since this project aims to offer a rich development
environment, it may be easier than usual to marshal gforth's
requirements.

IAC, if you care about promoting Forth in CHIP's community, then
get as much of a Forth together as you can and then write some
cool stuff for CHIP.  Hackable or extensible cool stuff goes
farther than 'mentions'.


-- Julian

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#39062

Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> writes:
> It's ARM Linux.  So: gforth requires miles and miles of build
> system.  

"apt-get install gforth" supposedly works on the Rpi Debian distros.
That command doesn't build the whole Forth system from sources, but
neither does installing Swift or VFX.

> It's the same picture you see with every other ARM Linux.  I blame
> Apple.

How is it different from the situation with x86 Linux?  I blame Apple
for plenty of things too, but this isn't one of them.

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#39123

En/Je/On 2015-05-13, Paul Rubin <no.email> escribe/skribas/writes:

> Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> writes:
>> It's ARM Linux.  So: gforth requires miles and miles of build
>> system.  
>
> "apt-get install gforth" supposedly works on the Rpi Debian distros.
> That command doesn't build the whole Forth system from sources, but
> neither does installing Swift or VFX.

I use Rpi with Raspbian (=Debian) and Gforth. Gforth can be installed
with "apt-get install gforth" (currently Gforth 0.7.0). Compilation from
the sources also works fine (at least until Gforth 0.7.3, I didn't the
latest yet).

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#39126

Op Thu, 14 May 2015 18:55:58 +0000 (UTC) schreef Marcos Cruz:

> En/Je/On 2015-05-13, Paul Rubin <no.email> escribe/skribas/writes:
> 
>> Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> writes:
>>> It's ARM Linux.  So: gforth requires miles and miles of build
>>> system.  
>>
>> "apt-get install gforth" supposedly works on the Rpi Debian distros.
>> That command doesn't build the whole Forth system from sources, but
>> neither does installing Swift or VFX.
> 
> I use Rpi with Raspbian (=Debian) and Gforth. Gforth can be installed
> with "apt-get install gforth" (currently Gforth 0.7.0). Compilation from
> the sources also works fine (at least until Gforth 0.7.3, I didn't the
> latest yet).

0.7.9_20150221 compiles and works

-- 
Coos

CHForth, 16 bit DOS applications
http://home.hccnet.nl/j.j.haak/forth.html 

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#39149

On 5/14/2015 5:12 PM, Coos Haak wrote:
> Op Thu, 14 May 2015 18:55:58 +0000 (UTC) schreef Marcos Cruz:
>
>> En/Je/On 2015-05-13, Paul Rubin <no.email> escribe/skribas/writes:
>>
>>> Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> It's ARM Linux.  So: gforth requires miles and miles of build
>>>> system.
>>>
>>> "apt-get install gforth" supposedly works on the Rpi Debian distros.
>>> That command doesn't build the whole Forth system from sources, but
>>> neither does installing Swift or VFX.
>>
>> I use Rpi with Raspbian (=Debian) and Gforth. Gforth can be installed
>> with "apt-get install gforth" (currently Gforth 0.7.0). Compilation from
>> the sources also works fine (at least until Gforth 0.7.3, I didn't the
>> latest yet).
>
> 0.7.9_20150221 compiles and works

I have gforth running on my rPi, but haven't done much with it yet.  I 
would like to be able to use serial ports and need to find the code to 
support that... just not right now.

I'm using e4thcom on the pi which seems to be based on miniforth.  I 
crashed it the other day and it coughed up that name.  lol

-- 

Rick

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#39072

In article <7b630082-38ff-40db-9363-593f5d93f403@googlegroups.com>,
Julian Fondren  <ayrnieu@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 7:50:18 PM UTC-5, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>> Forth not mentioned. Another chance or already lost?
>
>It's ARM Linux.  So: gforth requires miles and miles of build
>system.  VFX Forth requires a few hundred dollars.  SwiftX
>requires a thousand plus dollars and a separate computer.  Then
>some other stuff might work, but nothing really ANS.  Probably
>the most mature and reasonable alternative is 4th.
>
>It's the same picture you see with every other ARM Linux.  I
>blame Apple.
>
>But since this project aims to offer a rich development
>environment, it may be easier than usual to marshal gforth's
>requirements.
>
>IAC, if you care about promoting Forth in CHIP's community, then
>get as much of a Forth together as you can and then write some
>cool stuff for CHIP.  Hackable or extensible cool stuff goes
>farther than 'mentions'.

Indeed. One of the things that holds that back is having to
install a run time environment. I try to something about
that with ciforth.

>-- Julian

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#39071

In article <6aa5738e-0340-426a-9152-971ecdffe83a@googlegroups.com>,
 <visualforth@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Is this the end of the low price computer race - or will we have the
>ultimate First Four Dollar Forth Computer some day?
>
>Four guys from Oakland, California, founded NEXT THING CO. and started a
>Kickstarter project asking for a 50,000$ funding for their 9$-Computer,
>and got a pledge of more than 1,000,000$ from more than 20,000 backers.
>Exceptional!
>
>Here is what they write:
>C.H.I.P. is a computer for students, teachers, grandparents, children,
>artists, makers, hackers, and inventors. Everyone really. C.H.I.P. is a
>great way to add a computer to your life and the perfect way to power
>your computer based projects.
>
>C.H.I.P. is a /real/ computer, and can run software written in all kinds
>of programming languages, so long as there's a compiler for them.
>Python, Ruby, PHP, C++, JS, Assembly, BF.. even our favorite, ArnoldC,
>and lots lots more.

All vaporware, because the chip isn't there yet.

>
>Forth not mentioned.

Forth will be one of the first languages available on that chip,
as always. There are more Forth implementors on this planet than
implementors for all other languages combined (to the chagrin of
Elizabeth Rather)

>Another chance or already lost?

Don't be ridiculous.

>
>Sources:
>https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer/video_share
>
>Turn Your Raspberry Pi Prototypes into Products Ready For Market.
> http://nextthing.co/
>
>The four founders: We build Smart Devices and the technology that powers them.
> http://nextthing.co/aboutus.html
>
>STAK - An OS Built for Smart Devices that Loves Raspberry Pi.
> http://nextthing.co/stak.html

With about 25 euro for Raspberry and beagle board a line was crossed.
Going to 9 will not make a dramatic impact I think.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#39084

On 5/13/2015 6:46 AM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
>
> With about 25 euro for Raspberry and beagle board a line was crossed.
> Going to 9 will not make a dramatic impact I think.

That's the part I don't agree with.  The $9 device is only good for 
embedded devices (headless).  It is $19 with a VGA interface or $24 for 
HDMI, neither much different from the $25 for the pi.  The "dramtic 
impact" would be in the form of a user programmable device much like the 
Beagle or pi, not a blind unit like CHIP.

I'm sure they will sell a lot of units at $9, but it may well never 
catch up with the pi.

-- 

Rick

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#39086

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 3:05:22 PM UTC-5, rickman wrote: 
> That's the part I don't agree with.  The $9 device is only good for 
> embedded devices (headless).  It is $19 with a VGA interface or $24 for 
> HDMI, neither much different from the $25 for the pi.

If your applications tend to only require WiFi, then you can buy N of
these devices and only 1 set of a VGA adapter, an HDMI adapter, or
whatever else you need for development or maintenance.

-- Julian

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#39089

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> That's the part I don't agree with.  The $9 device is only good for
> embedded devices (headless).  It is $19 with a VGA interface or $24
> for HDMI, neither much different from the $25 for the pi. 

The pi has an HDMI port but I wonder how many people actually use it.  I
don't even own any standalone monitors, so any pi's that I used would be
headless, communicating from my laptop by ethernet.  There is also a
headless Pi "compute module" but it costs as much as the HDMI one.

I've actually been interested in testing some software on a Pi, and
rather than mucking around with actually buying one and cabling it up
and having yet more electronic junk cluttering up my room, I've been
thinking of renting one that's hosted in a data center in Bulgaria:

  https://www.fitvps.com/members/cart.php?a=confproduct&i=0

These guys host in Amsterdam and charge less per month, but you have to
supply your own pi or buy one from them:

  http://raspberrycolocation.com/

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#39090

On 5/13/2015 5:07 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> That's the part I don't agree with.  The $9 device is only good for
>> embedded devices (headless).  It is $19 with a VGA interface or $24
>> for HDMI, neither much different from the $25 for the pi.
>
> The pi has an HDMI port but I wonder how many people actually use it.  I
> don't even own any standalone monitors, so any pi's that I used would be
> headless, communicating from my laptop by ethernet.  There is also a
> headless Pi "compute module" but it costs as much as the HDMI one.

How many rPis do you have?  None?  I rest my case.  The vast majority of 
rPi purchases are by those who are *learning* about computers, much like 
the Arduino.  The big advantage of the rPi is that you can connect a TV, 
a keyboard and a mouse making it the development system as well as the 
target.  That was the intended market and they have done extremely well 
with it.


> I've actually been interested in testing some software on a Pi, and
> rather than mucking around with actually buying one and cabling it up
> and having yet more electronic junk cluttering up my room, I've been
> thinking of renting one that's hosted in a data center in Bulgaria:
>
>    https://www.fitvps.com/members/cart.php?a=confproduct&i=0

Really?  Renting a pi?  It is the size of a deck of cards.  The cables 
take up more space.  I had mine hung over the back of a monitor (of 
which I have plenty).  But now that it is connected to a launchpad 
making it remotely controllable from my laptop it sits on the work bench.

If you have a TV, you can plug in the rPi and access it over your local 
network.  I expect you can even use it to play movies over the Internet. 
  I haven't tried that yet.


> These guys host in Amsterdam and charge less per month, but you have to
> supply your own pi or buy one from them:
>
>    http://raspberrycolocation.com/

Uh, you would pay for storage of your own rPi?  Heck, I will work on 
this a bit and let you use mine for free.  I want to get an rPi 2 and 
won't need both of them all the time.  I have a static IP address, so I 
can make it available if you are really interested.  But if you can use 
it remotely, why do you need it at all?  Can't you write the software 
for *any* linux box and have it work where you want?  I am using it 
because of the I/O and the fact that it is so much smaller than a PC.

-- 

Rick

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#39622

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> On 5/13/2015 5:07 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> The pi has an HDMI port but I wonder how many people actually use it.  I
>> don't even own any standalone monitors, 

> How many rPis do you have?  None?  I rest my case.

No rPis but I do have a Beaglebone Black.

> The vast majority of rPi purchases are by those who are *learning*
> about computers, much like the Arduino.  

Well specifically (in the case of the Arduino, and I think also of the
rPi though that's more questionable) about hardware control, i.e. doing
things with the gpio pins rather than just computing stuff.

> The big advantage of the rPi is that you can connect a TV, a keyboard
> and a mouse making it the development system as well as the target.
> That was the intended market and they have done extremely well with
> it.

But, if all you want is computation, web browsing, etc., for about the
same expenditure as an Rpi with keyboard, mouse, monitor/tv, etc. you
can get a cheap laptop that's much more useful (portable,
self-contained, faster, has mass storage).  

>>    https://www.fitvps.com/members/cart.php?a=confproduct&i=0
> Really?  Renting a pi?  It is the size of a deck of cards.  The cables
> take up more space.

Well the rental cost is also for the network connection and hosting,
plus it pays off the hardware cost at the other end.

> If you have a TV, 

My family had one when I was a kid and I remember watching Star Trek on
it, but I've never personally owned one.

> Uh, you would pay for storage of your own rPi?  Heck, I will work on
> this a bit and let you use mine for free. 

Thanks!  I might take you up on that at some point.

> But if you can use it remotely, why do you need it at all?  Can't you
> write the software for *any* linux box and have it work where you
> want?  

Compatibility testing, benchmarks, that sort of thing.  Also in the case
of the fitvps or colo hosting, it's a way to have a small and very cheap
dedicated server, which has some advantages over a VPS since nobody else
is on the machine. 

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#39626

On 6/7/2015 10:49 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 5/13/2015 5:07 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>> The pi has an HDMI port but I wonder how many people actually use it.  I
>>> don't even own any standalone monitors,
>
>> How many rPis do you have?  None?  I rest my case.
>
> No rPis but I do have a Beaglebone Black.
>
>> The vast majority of rPi purchases are by those who are *learning*
>> about computers, much like the Arduino.
>
> Well specifically (in the case of the Arduino, and I think also of the
> rPi though that's more questionable) about hardware control, i.e. doing
> things with the gpio pins rather than just computing stuff.
>
>> The big advantage of the rPi is that you can connect a TV, a keyboard
>> and a mouse making it the development system as well as the target.
>> That was the intended market and they have done extremely well with
>> it.
>
> But, if all you want is computation, web browsing, etc., for about the
> same expenditure as an Rpi with keyboard, mouse, monitor/tv, etc. you
> can get a cheap laptop that's much more useful (portable,
> self-contained, faster, has mass storage).

Not sure what you are referring to.  Both the rPi and any laptop you can 
get for $100 is pretty much pointless for web surfing.  Maybe the new 
rPi 2 will do better, but browsers don't do well on low end hardware.  I 
don't know of any laptops you can get for anywhere near that price.


>>>     https://www.fitvps.com/members/cart.php?a=confproduct&i=0
>> Really?  Renting a pi?  It is the size of a deck of cards.  The cables
>> take up more space.
>
> Well the rental cost is also for the network connection and hosting,
> plus it pays off the hardware cost at the other end.

Yes, this is absurdly expensive for what you can have 100% for well 
under $100.  And as you said yourself, an rPi is mostly about what you 
can connect to it.


>> If you have a TV,
>
> My family had one when I was a kid and I remember watching Star Trek on
> it, but I've never personally owned one.
>
>> Uh, you would pay for storage of your own rPi?  Heck, I will work on
>> this a bit and let you use mine for free.
>
> Thanks!  I might take you up on that at some point.

You'll need to figure out how to find the way past my modem and router. 
  But otherwise I'm happy to share.


>> But if you can use it remotely, why do you need it at all?  Can't you
>> write the software for *any* linux box and have it work where you
>> want?
>
> Compatibility testing, benchmarks, that sort of thing.  Also in the case
> of the fitvps or colo hosting, it's a way to have a small and very cheap
> dedicated server, which has some advantages over a VPS since nobody else
> is on the machine.

If you say so.  I have been using mine as a remote access point for a TI 
MCU board.  The TI board plugs into the rPi USB and I SSH into it from 
my PC in the other room where it is more comfortable.  To learn how to 
control it, I connected an HC-05 Bluetooth module via a USB serial port 
on the rPi.  But the durn thing gives fits and does all sorts of flaky 
stuff.  I may have to go right off the PC to get it to work at all.

-- 

Rick

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#39629

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> Not sure what you are referring to.  Both the rPi and any laptop you
> can get for $100 is pretty much pointless for web surfing.  Maybe the
> new rPi 2 will do better, but browsers don't do well on low end
> hardware.  I don't know of any laptops you can get for anywhere near
> that price.

I was figuring more like $200 including a monitor, some flash cards,
power adapter, enclosure, wifi dongle, etc.  You can get a decent x86
laptop for $200 new if you shop carefully and wait for closeouts etc.
Frys.com has several right now.  Or you can get a Chromebook if you
don't mind its limitations.  Or you can get decent used laptops galore
for $100-ish on Craigslist.

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#39623

Oh I forgot to mention in previous post: These guys are claiming the
C.H.I.P.  computer will actually cost $29 after the Kickstarter is over.
They are cynical about the initial $9 price tag as a marketing stunt.

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-news-tell-people-that-you-will-make-and-sell-something-which-cost-you-20-for-9/

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#39627

On 6/7/2015 10:52 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Oh I forgot to mention in previous post: These guys are claiming the
> C.H.I.P.  computer will actually cost $29 after the Kickstarter is over.
> They are cynical about the initial $9 price tag as a marketing stunt.
>
> https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-news-tell-people-that-you-will-make-and-sell-something-which-cost-you-20-for-9/

That wouldn't surprise me at all.  I don't know how you can build and 
ship a pet rock for $9 and make much profit.

-- 

Rick

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