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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #46348 > unrolled thread
| Started by | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-03-30 21:39 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-03-31 23:23 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 119 — 10 participants |
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New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-30 21:39 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-30 18:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-30 20:31 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-03-30 23:41 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 00:37 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 14:36 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-04-01 00:42 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 13:09 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-04-01 23:43 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-01 17:28 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-04-02 12:10 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-31 17:07 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-03-31 23:59 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-04-01 00:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 12:47 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 18:54 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 22:08 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 19:36 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 23:28 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 22:32 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 02:39 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 04:42 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick josv@planet.nl - 2016-04-01 04:48 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 05:50 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-04-01 13:35 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-01 13:11 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 01:58 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 10:15 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 08:02 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:39 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 12:54 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-02 15:14 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 22:14 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-02 23:08 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-03 02:11 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-03 22:54 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 02:50 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 16:37 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:15 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:21 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:01 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:17 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 01:15 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 12:50 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 23:21 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:29 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:02 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 02:07 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:12 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 00:12 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 03:22 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 01:22 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 02:12 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:15 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-05 17:14 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 03:03 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-04 19:51 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 20:18 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-04 20:44 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-04 22:39 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 02:25 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 16:23 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 23:18 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 13:22 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-05 13:34 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 21:28 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:34 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-04-01 15:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-04-02 01:55 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-04 22:38 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 23:10 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 16:28 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 22:35 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 21:40 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 22:13 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-05 22:44 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 02:41 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 01:26 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 02:02 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 09:06 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 05:09 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 03:50 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 19:23 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-06 16:29 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-07 11:32 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 15:38 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 09:45 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 11:04 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 17:36 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-08 17:39 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 14:08 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-08 10:52 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-05-08 14:57 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-08 13:23 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 09:26 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 10:26 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 09:38 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 12:58 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 22:53 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 22:41 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 11:08 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 13:21 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 23:39 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 19:03 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-05-09 21:44 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-10 08:28 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-10 12:34 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-10 22:27 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Albert van der Horst <albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2016-05-09 09:16 +0000
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 14:01 -0400
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:26 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 19:09 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-03-31 21:41 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:10 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 12:37 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-01 15:35 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2016-04-01 18:11 -0500
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2016-03-31 19:47 -0700
Re: New "Forth" MCU Board, ChipStick Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-31 23:23 -0700
Page 2 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 Next page →
| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-01 02:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndl4tn$asv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46379 |
On 4/1/2016 1:32 AM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 11:28:50 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: >> On 3/31/2016 10:36 PM, visualforth.com wrote: >>> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 10:08:39 PM UTC-4, rickman wrote: >>>> On 3/31/2016 9:54 PM, visualforth.com wrote: >>>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 at 2:41:04 AM UTC-4, JUERGEN wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Stick an FRAM on instead of the RAM and you got a "Disk". >>>>>> >>>>>> So is there a small Block Editor around that can be used? >>>>> >>>>> With FRAM and a token threaded Forth (like Jupiter ACE's Forth) no Block Editor is needed: programming as you go and editing/debugging the source code directly on chip if needed. >>>>> >>>>> The greatest discovery Ken made is demystifying the BSL story! >>>>> Enables transferring Forth to the MSP430 with no additional hardware. >>>>> Then Forth makes programming possible directly with the MSP430 alone. >>>>> Even cloning will be possible this way. >>>> >>>> BSL? Boot Strap Loader? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Rick >>> >>> Yes! >> >> Personally I feel they are a bit overrated. They have to be installed >> using a JTAG or similar programmer. Then if they are clobbered, back to >> the programmer. So why not just use one all the time to begin with. Or >> do I misunderstand what this bootloader is doing? Is it pre-installed >> by TI? >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > The BSL is part of the MSP430FR2433 ROM. It has ROM? Ok, then why is a programmer needed, for debugging? -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-01 04:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <33379c59-49ee-48ba-8d72-24d6d78a5971@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46383 |
> It has ROM? Ok, then why is a programmer needed, for debugging? There are many chips that have internal bootloaders (in rom). These bootloaders are often named factory bootloaders or primary bootloaders. NXP LPC chips (arm cortex-m0/m3/m4) for example have UART and USB bootloaders since they appeared. Some chips with USB even have Mass storage bootloaders. These are the most friendly chips to be programmed ever. No drivers, no custom software, no nothing. They appear as a disk and you can write (drag'n drop) the new firmware image file on it. For UART based bootloader chips (the majority) you only need an RS232/TTL converter (if you have a legacy RS232 - hardly these days) or an USB/TTL converter. The protocol is proprietary, but usually it's open and documented. The chipstick guy is MSP430-based obviously. Personally I would make it with a cortex-m0/m3 small chip and a serial flash. It would be a 32bit full forth with a file system in serial flash. Probably not $5 though. But I don't have any motivation for doing this. Unless I would sell 1000 of them... minimum :)
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| From | josv@planet.nl |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-01 04:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e1c3a9d9-7072-4d41-9b28-63a74cd11657@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46388 |
Hi, > It would be a 32bit full forth What is the smallest device on which gForth currently runs? Jos On April 1st, 2016 13:42:09 UTC+2 Raimond Dragomir wrote: > > It has ROM? Ok, then why is a programmer needed, for debugging? > > There are many chips that have internal bootloaders (in rom). These > bootloaders are often named factory bootloaders or primary bootloaders. > NXP LPC chips (arm cortex-m0/m3/m4) for example have UART and USB > bootloaders since they appeared. Some chips with USB even have Mass storage bootloaders. These are the most friendly chips to be programmed ever. No drivers, no custom software, no nothing. They appear as a disk and you can > write (drag'n drop) the new firmware image file on it. > For UART based bootloader chips (the majority) you only need an RS232/TTL > converter (if you have a legacy RS232 - hardly these days) or an USB/TTL > converter. The protocol is proprietary, but usually it's open and documented. > > The chipstick guy is MSP430-based obviously. Personally I would make it > with a cortex-m0/m3 small chip and a serial flash. It would be a 32bit full forth > with a file system in serial flash. Probably not $5 though. > > But I don't have any motivation for doing this. Unless I would sell 1000 > of them... minimum :)
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-01 05:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7ff68e58-30dc-44e2-af2c-ddeb0527c2c3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46390 |
vineri, 1 aprilie 2016, 14:48:57 UTC+3, jo...@planet.nl a scris: > Hi, > > > It would be a 32bit full forth > What is the smallest device on which gForth currently runs? > > Jos > > On April 1st, 2016 13:42:09 UTC+2 Raimond Dragomir wrote: > > > It has ROM? Ok, then why is a programmer needed, for debugging? > > > > There are many chips that have internal bootloaders (in rom). These > > bootloaders are often named factory bootloaders or primary bootloaders. > > NXP LPC chips (arm cortex-m0/m3/m4) for example have UART and USB > > bootloaders since they appeared. Some chips with USB even have Mass storage bootloaders. These are the most friendly chips to be programmed ever. No drivers, no custom software, no nothing. They appear as a disk and you can > > write (drag'n drop) the new firmware image file on it. > > For UART based bootloader chips (the majority) you only need an RS232/TTL > > converter (if you have a legacy RS232 - hardly these days) or an USB/TTL > > converter. The protocol is proprietary, but usually it's open and documented. > > > > The chipstick guy is MSP430-based obviously. Personally I would make it > > with a cortex-m0/m3 small chip and a serial flash. It would be a 32bit full forth > > with a file system in serial flash. Probably not $5 though. > > > > But I don't have any motivation for doing this. Unless I would sell 1000 > > of them... minimum :) You don't need a gforth for a microcontroller like that. When I mean "full" forth I mean a forth system servicing the microcontroller peripherals AND a flash file system when you can store real forth source file (among any other files of course)
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-01 13:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2016Apr1.153514@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #46390 |
josv@planet.nl writes:
>What is the smallest device on which gForth currently runs?
There's Gforth EC for the R8C board distributed with Elektor
<http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/doku.php/projects:r8c:r8c_forth>, but
that's 16-bit AFAIK.
For non-EC Gforth, something like the Raspberry Pi Zero is plenty for
Gforth and should run it out of the box. You should be able to get it
to run on an ARM board without OS and 512KB RAM, but that needs more
work (the less RAM, the more work).
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2015: http://www.rigwit.co.uk/EuroForth2015/
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-01 13:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndm9u4$m6l$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46388 |
On 4/1/2016 7:42 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >> It has ROM? Ok, then why is a programmer needed, for debugging? > > There are many chips that have internal bootloaders (in rom). These > bootloaders are often named factory bootloaders or primary bootloaders. > NXP LPC chips (arm cortex-m0/m3/m4) for example have UART and USB > bootloaders since they appeared. Some chips with USB even have Mass storage bootloaders. These are the most friendly chips to be programmed ever. No drivers, no custom software, no nothing. They appear as a disk and you can > write (drag'n drop) the new firmware image file on it. > For UART based bootloader chips (the majority) you only need an RS232/TTL > converter (if you have a legacy RS232 - hardly these days) or an USB/TTL > converter. The protocol is proprietary, but usually it's open and documented. > > The chipstick guy is MSP430-based obviously. Personally I would make it > with a cortex-m0/m3 small chip and a serial flash. It would be a 32bit full forth > with a file system in serial flash. Probably not $5 though. > > But I don't have any motivation for doing this. Unless I would sell 1000 > of them... minimum :) I don't see that quantity being a problem. See my link in the original post for the OSHChip. That is what you just specified plus Bluetooth. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 01:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ab27ccfd-afa1-4f89-b055-f22973503669@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46394 |
> I don't see that quantity being a problem. See my link in the original > post for the OSHChip. That is what you just specified plus Bluetooth. > > -- > > Rick If you can sell them, let's do it together. I will design and produce the boards, you will sell them. There are quite a number of CPU+RF on chip these days, including BLE. The problem is certification. A better way is to use small modules which are certified. A BLE module can go as low as $6-7 in moderate volumes.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 10:15 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndojvl$54v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46411 |
On 4/2/2016 4:58 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >> I don't see that quantity being a problem. See my link in the original >> post for the OSHChip. That is what you just specified plus Bluetooth. >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > If you can sell them, let's do it together. I will design and produce > the boards, you will sell them. > There are quite a number of CPU+RF on chip these days, including BLE. > The problem is certification. A better way is to use small modules which > are certified. A BLE module can go as low as $6-7 in moderate volumes. And those modules include an MCU. I appreciate the offer, but I am not lacking in design experience myself. Can you actually design and make Forth MCU modules that can be sold at a profit for $5? I've never worked with Chinese makers before. To sell this for $5 you would need to get the whole process, including shipping, down pat and done in Hong Kong or similar. Wow! Just checked supply and the MSP430FR2433 is not available until June, but I think this is a new item, so I guess that is the initial delivery date. If they really can be sold for $5, I expect they will sell well. Personally, I don't have a burning need for a DIP replacement form factor. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 08:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c39e30dd-0b92-4f0a-b1bf-c141f73ec751@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46414 |
sâmbătă, 2 aprilie 2016, 17:15:21 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > On 4/2/2016 4:58 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > >> I don't see that quantity being a problem. See my link in the original > >> post for the OSHChip. That is what you just specified plus Bluetooth. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Rick > > > > If you can sell them, let's do it together. I will design and produce > > the boards, you will sell them. > > There are quite a number of CPU+RF on chip these days, including BLE. > > The problem is certification. A better way is to use small modules which > > are certified. A BLE module can go as low as $6-7 in moderate volumes. > > And those modules include an MCU. > > I appreciate the offer, but I am not lacking in design experience > myself. Can you actually design and make Forth MCU modules that can be > sold at a profit for $5? I've never worked with Chinese makers before. > To sell this for $5 you would need to get the whole process, including > shipping, down pat and done in Hong Kong or similar. > > Wow! Just checked supply and the MSP430FR2433 is not available until > June, but I think this is a new item, so I guess that is the initial > delivery date. > > If they really can be sold for $5, I expect they will sell well. > Personally, I don't have a burning need for a DIP replacement form factor. > > -- > > Rick Even if I can make the modules, I don't have the logistics to sell such retail items... Unless I would make a deal with Adafruit (for example) to sell them at $4 and they sell them at $5 making $1 profit per module. My problem would be to make the module at $3, which can be doable at 1000+.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 12:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndosdt$4v5$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46415 |
On 4/2/2016 11:02 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > sâmbătă, 2 aprilie 2016, 17:15:21 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >> On 4/2/2016 4:58 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>>> I don't see that quantity being a problem. See my link in the original >>>> post for the OSHChip. That is what you just specified plus Bluetooth. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Rick >>> >>> If you can sell them, let's do it together. I will design and produce >>> the boards, you will sell them. >>> There are quite a number of CPU+RF on chip these days, including BLE. >>> The problem is certification. A better way is to use small modules which >>> are certified. A BLE module can go as low as $6-7 in moderate volumes. >> >> And those modules include an MCU. >> >> I appreciate the offer, but I am not lacking in design experience >> myself. Can you actually design and make Forth MCU modules that can be >> sold at a profit for $5? I've never worked with Chinese makers before. >> To sell this for $5 you would need to get the whole process, including >> shipping, down pat and done in Hong Kong or similar. >> >> Wow! Just checked supply and the MSP430FR2433 is not available until >> June, but I think this is a new item, so I guess that is the initial >> delivery date. >> >> If they really can be sold for $5, I expect they will sell well. >> Personally, I don't have a burning need for a DIP replacement form factor.. >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > Even if I can make the modules, I don't have the logistics to sell > such retail items... > Unless I would make a deal with Adafruit (for example) to sell them at $4 > and they sell them at $5 making $1 profit per module. My problem would > be to make the module at $3, which can be doable at 1000+. I think selling them would be the easy part. Yes, even making them at $4 would be hard, but once you commit to selling 10,000 that might not be so hard. When the rPi was still fairly new at $25, someone said he was going to make a similar device to sell for $9 and is now shipping. Looks like he raised over $2 mil last year. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer That is much more computer than a Forth MCU which I'm sure *can* be sold for $5 in volume. The trick is *not* having a middle man but to use all minimum cost services overseas that drop ship using the same methods as eBay. Heck, eBay would be a good way to sell these. But someone seems to be going down that road, so we'll see how he does. -- Rick
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 12:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndotah$7t0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46417 |
On 4/2/2016 12:39 PM, rickman wrote: > On 4/2/2016 11:02 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >> sâmbătă, 2 aprilie 2016, 17:15:21 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >>> On 4/2/2016 4:58 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>>>> I don't see that quantity being a problem. See my link in the >>>>> original >>>>> post for the OSHChip. That is what you just specified plus Bluetooth. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Rick >>>> >>>> If you can sell them, let's do it together. I will design and produce >>>> the boards, you will sell them. >>>> There are quite a number of CPU+RF on chip these days, including BLE. >>>> The problem is certification. A better way is to use small modules >>>> which >>>> are certified. A BLE module can go as low as $6-7 in moderate volumes. >>> >>> And those modules include an MCU. >>> >>> I appreciate the offer, but I am not lacking in design experience >>> myself. Can you actually design and make Forth MCU modules that can be >>> sold at a profit for $5? I've never worked with Chinese makers before. >>> To sell this for $5 you would need to get the whole process, >>> including >>> shipping, down pat and done in Hong Kong or similar. >>> >>> Wow! Just checked supply and the MSP430FR2433 is not available until >>> June, but I think this is a new item, so I guess that is the initial >>> delivery date. >>> >>> If they really can be sold for $5, I expect they will sell well. >>> Personally, I don't have a burning need for a DIP replacement form >>> factor.. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Rick >> >> Even if I can make the modules, I don't have the logistics to sell >> such retail items... >> Unless I would make a deal with Adafruit (for example) to sell them at $4 >> and they sell them at $5 making $1 profit per module. My problem would >> be to make the module at $3, which can be doable at 1000+. > > I think selling them would be the easy part. Yes, even making them at > $4 would be hard, but once you commit to selling 10,000 that might not > be so hard. When the rPi was still fairly new at $25, someone said he > was going to make a similar device to sell for $9 and is now shipping. > Looks like he raised over $2 mil last year. > > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer > > > That is much more computer than a Forth MCU which I'm sure *can* be sold > for $5 in volume. The trick is *not* having a middle man but to use all > minimum cost services overseas that drop ship using the same methods as > eBay. Heck, eBay would be a good way to sell these. > > But someone seems to be going down that road, so we'll see how he does. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the $5 rPi and the FREE (to UK school children) BBC Micro Bit. The BBC Micro Bit uses the Nordic nRF21822 which uses an ARM CM0 with Bluetooth. Too bad they can't be bought, at least not yet. -- Rick
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 15:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8737r3sloc.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46415 |
Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > Unless I would make a deal with Adafruit (for example) to sell them at $4 > and they sell them at $5 making $1 profit per module. My problem would > be to make the module at $3, which can be doable at 1000+. The TI processor alone is $1.5 or something like that. And Adafruit's own less powerful Atmel-based Trinket boards start around $7. So this sounds difficult. I'll wait and see whether the ChipStick actually becomes available at $5. But, a version with SPI flash is almost the same board as the one with SRAM, I'd expect.
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 22:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <092057c0-e91f-49cf-8d69-506df8d03b1d@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46424 |
duminică, 3 aprilie 2016, 01:14:44 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > > Unless I would make a deal with Adafruit (for example) to sell them at $4 > > and they sell them at $5 making $1 profit per module. My problem would > > be to make the module at $3, which can be doable at 1000+. > > The TI processor alone is $1.5 or something like that. And Adafruit's > own less powerful Atmel-based Trinket boards start around $7. So this > sounds difficult. I'll wait and see whether the ChipStick actually > becomes available at $5. But, a version with SPI flash is almost the > same board as the one with SRAM, I'd expect. $1.5 sounds expensive. I know a cortex-m0 chip with 64K flash and 8K ram in LQFP48 which is $1 qty1000 and $0.8 qty2500. A 4Mbit (512KB) serial flash is $0.25 1000+. PCB + some other components (with a micro-usb connector which is probably the cheapest) will get $2 for BOM. $1 for the chinese manufacturer -> $3. $1 for the retailer -> $4. $1 for me :D -> $5 on the shelf. There are cheaper MCUs with only 4K ram, but this sounds too limiting for a forth system. The most limiting factor here is the RAM, it's hard to get low prices for higher ram MCUs. But 8K seems quite ok.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-02 23:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87y48vql51.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46429 |
Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > $1.5 sounds expensive. I know a cortex-m0 chip with 64K flash and 8K ram > in LQFP48 which is $1 qty1000 and $0.8 qty2500. A 4Mbit (512KB) serial flash > is $0.25 1000+. PCB + some other components (with a micro-usb connector... > There are cheaper MCUs with only 4K ram, but this sounds too limiting for > a forth system. The most limiting factor here is the RAM, it's hard to get > low prices for higher ram MCUs. But 8K seems quite ok. If you can compile to flash, 4k ram doesn't seem that bad. The msp430g2553 has 256 bytes, fwiw. And the Atmega328 found in zillions of arduinos has 2.5k. But yeah, with that SPI flash, you want some block buffers, so 8k is better. An usb interface like the Digispark's (the card plugs directly into a USB port, no connector) is probably cheaper than a micro usb. Photo: http://digistump.com/products/1 I have to admit puzzlement about the use cases for the board. That seems worth discussing in its own right. Most applications that interest me (though that's just me) need RTC which means a crystal adding cost. Maybe that could be optional. Built-in lipo charger is also nice--more cost. Etc.
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-03 02:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dec96967-7877-4606-83b2-f7540b4c260f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46430 |
duminică, 3 aprilie 2016, 09:09:06 UTC+3, Paul Rubin a scris: > Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > > $1.5 sounds expensive. I know a cortex-m0 chip with 64K flash and 8K ram > > in LQFP48 which is $1 qty1000 and $0.8 qty2500. A 4Mbit (512KB) serial flash > > is $0.25 1000+. PCB + some other components (with a micro-usb connector... > > There are cheaper MCUs with only 4K ram, but this sounds too limiting for > > a forth system. The most limiting factor here is the RAM, it's hard to get > > low prices for higher ram MCUs. But 8K seems quite ok. > > If you can compile to flash, 4k ram doesn't seem that bad. The > msp430g2553 has 256 bytes, fwiw. And the Atmega328 found in zillions of > arduinos has 2.5k. But yeah, with that SPI flash, you want some block > buffers, so 8k is better. > > An usb interface like the Digispark's (the card plugs directly into a > USB port, no connector) is probably cheaper than a micro usb. Photo: > > http://digistump.com/products/1 > > I have to admit puzzlement about the use cases for the board. That > seems worth discussing in its own right. Most applications that > interest me (though that's just me) need RTC which means a crystal > adding cost. Maybe that could be optional. Built-in lipo charger is > also nice--more cost. Etc. Than you would get toward $9. Still one digit price. I don't understand this lowest cost race. You always get what you paid for. No more.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-03 22:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87twjhrk9l.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #46437 |
Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> writes: > Than you would get toward $9. Still one digit price. I don't > understand this lowest cost race. You always get what you paid for. Yeah, I still don't understand the vision of this board. A miniaturized Apple II with a retro 70's-style dev environment? A little embeddable board to stick inside projects like Arduino Nanos are currently used? An educational thing to be handed out by the 100's at scouting events? I do like that $1.5 ChipStick FRAM processor and didn't realize that 2MB SPI flash parts were that cheap. Maybe the MCU, flash, and an LED or two is enough. No USB, just some uart pins and expect the person to use an ftdi cable, or else do low speed USB in software like the Digispark does. Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): http://www.espruino.com/Pico Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it.
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 02:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0273c125-c337-4fd0-8073-e9355b4ddc9b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46459 |
> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): > > http://www.espruino.com/Pico > > Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, > accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a > built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very > nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. Wow, that's expensive :D You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one...
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 16:37 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <nduj3c$ait$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46473 |
On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > >> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): >> >> http://www.espruino.com/Pico >> >> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, >> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a >> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very >> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. > > Wow, that's expensive :D > You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. -- Rick
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| From | Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-04 23:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d94afd83-1fc8-454d-9abb-b064ea08971a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #46484 |
luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 23:37:05 UTC+3, rickman a scris: > On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > > > >> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): > >> > >> http://www.espruino.com/Pico > >> > >> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, > >> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a > >> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very > >> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. > > > > Wow, that's expensive :D > > You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... > > I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 > for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 > all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. > > -- > > Rick Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. The $10 is only BOM I admit and practically you would need to make 100 pcbs to get to a fair price. But the pcb is very small, and 100 of them will be just a medium size board in fact. All in all, you can make 100 of them at $10 with no problem. That's why I said $25 is quite high price :) For these money, I won't have any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 boards, and I would sel, them at $15 not $25. Only that I'm not in this market...
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-05 02:21 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ndvlbm$b9p$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #46499 |
On 4/5/2016 2:15 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: > luni, 4 aprilie 2016, 23:37:05 UTC+3, rickman a scris: >> On 4/4/2016 5:50 AM, Raimond Dragomir wrote: >>> >>>> Here's another board I like, that's more expensive ($25 retail): >>>> >>>> http://www.espruino.com/Pico >>>> >>>> Cortex M4, 384kb flash, 96kb RAM, On-board 3.3v 250mA voltage regulator, >>>> accepts voltages from 3.5v to 16v. Again a tiny little board with a >>>> built-in USB plug. It comes with Javascript but could run Forth very >>>> nicely. I think someone has also gotten MicroPython running on it. >>> >>> Wow, that's expensive :D >>> You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one... >> >> I bet you can't! Qty 1 the processor is $7.02. That only leaves you $3 >> for the PCB, switch, regulator, crystal, LEDs, FET and passives. Qty 1 >> all of this likely pushes $15 not counting the PCB. >> >> -- >> >> Rick > > Get real, what is around the micro barely gets to $3. The $10 is only BOM I admit > and practically you would need to make 100 pcbs to get to a fair price. > But the pcb is very small, and 100 of them will be just a medium size board > in fact. > All in all, you can make 100 of them at $10 with no problem. That's why I said > $25 is quite high price :) > For these money, I won't have any problem investing 1000 bucks to make 100 > boards, and I would sel, them at $15 not $25. > Only that I'm not in this market... Did you read what you wrote? "You can make that board around $10 yourself, even if you make only one..." -- Rick
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