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Windows8

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  Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-02 08:41 -0700
    Re: Windows8 Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-11-02 11:12 -0700
    Re: Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-06 09:05 -0800
      Re: Windows8 Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-12 07:10 -0800
        Re: Windows8 stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-11-12 17:27 +0000
      Re: Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-21 17:48 -0800
    Re: Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-07 20:44 -0800
    Re: Windows8 Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-12 07:15 -0800
      Re: Windows8 Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-11-12 07:59 -0800
      Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-12 07:55 -1000
        Re: Windows8 "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-11-14 20:04 +1100
          Re: Windows8 anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-14 17:01 +0000
            Re: Windows8 "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-11-18 11:14 +1100
              Re: Windows8 anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-19 14:25 +0000
                Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-19 08:09 -1000
                  Re: Windows8 anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-20 09:55 +0000
                    Re: Windows8 mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-11-25 10:56 +0200
                      Re: Windows8 Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-25 16:46 +0100
              Re: Windows8 Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-19 16:21 -0500
                Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-19 13:46 -0800
                  Re: Windows8 Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-19 17:05 -0500
                    Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-19 12:14 -1000
                      Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-19 14:30 -0800
                        Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-19 12:53 -1000
                      Re: Windows8 Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-19 17:44 -0500
                        Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-19 14:52 -0800
                          GC (was Re: Windows8) Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-26 11:44 -0500
                            Re: GC Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-26 11:44 -0800
                              Re: GC Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 06:35 -0500
                                Re: GC Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-29 11:58 -0800
                                  Re: GC albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-11-30 01:46 +0000
                                    Re: GC Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-29 21:14 -0800
                    Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-19 14:42 -0800
                      Re: Windows8 Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-19 17:56 -0500
                        Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-19 15:14 -0800
                          Re: Windows8 Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-19 18:45 -0500
                            Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-19 14:18 -1000
                            Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-19 16:18 -0800
                          Re: Windows8 Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-11-19 19:01 -0500
                      Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-19 12:58 -1000
                      Re: Windows8 Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-20 02:23 +0100
                        Re: Windows8 anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-20 10:48 +0000
                          Re: Windows8 Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-11-20 07:56 -0800
                            Re: Windows8 anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-21 15:03 +0000
                          Re: Windows8 Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-23 05:58 -0800
                      Re: Windows8 Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-20 02:13 -0800
                        Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-20 08:57 -0800
                          Re: Windows8 "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2012-11-20 16:56 -0500
                        Re: Windows8 mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-11-25 11:20 +0200
      Re: Windows8 rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-11-14 16:36 -0500
        Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-14 12:12 -1000
          Re: Windows8 rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-11-14 17:46 -0500
            Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-14 13:12 -1000
              Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-14 18:12 -0800
              Re: Windows8 rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-11-15 13:55 -0500
                Re: Windows8 RR <freedomspyder@gmail.com> - 2012-11-15 16:03 -0800
                  Re: Windows8 rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-11-15 21:54 -0500
                    Re: Windows8 RR <freedomspyder@gmail.com> - 2012-11-15 19:26 -0800
                    Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-15 19:27 -0800
                      Re: Windows8 Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-16 17:45 +0100
                        Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-16 09:10 -0800
                          Re: Windows8 Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-16 22:34 +0100
                        Re: Windows8 Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2012-11-16 18:06 +0000
                          Re: Windows8 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-16 11:09 -0800
                            Re: Windows8 Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-11-16 15:18 -0500
          Re: Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-15 00:19 -0800
            Re: Windows8 "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-14 22:55 -1000
            Re: Windows8 albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-11-15 12:20 +0000
              Re: Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-15 08:32 -0800
              Re: Windows8 kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-11-16 04:51 -0600
                Re: Windows8 stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-11-16 13:46 +0000
                Re: Windows8 visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-11-16 08:12 -0800
    Re: Windows8 the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-11-29 00:16 -0800

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#17333

Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> Most OEMs have a contract with Microsoft that goes "per machine sold", 

I can tell you I bought a Lenovo-branded Thinkpad in 2008 or so (I'm
still using it) with SuSE Linux that really did cost nontrivially less
(I don't remember the amount, but closer to $100 than to $0) than the
same hardware with Windows.  

In the case where the hardware manufacturer (Foxconn, Compal, etc.) is
separate from the retail brand (e.g. Dell sells a lot of Compal gear, or
did), I'd have expected that the retail brand supplies the OS, and
therefore the Linux laptop specialty places really aren't buying
Windows, but they still have to charge more for the laptops because they
have less buying power and have to pay more for the hardware.  If the
hardware manufacturers are having to license Windows, that's annoying :(.

> to install your own Ubuntu, Mint, OpenSuSE or Fedora, because Acer's 
> Linux is really bad.

Yeah, I'm used to that, I didn't run SuSE either (replaced it
immediately with Ubuntu, later switched to Fedora).

> Asus tried the same when they started their netbook line, and the 
> consequence was that Microsoft lowered the price for Windows XP on a 
> netbook to mere $3 - if all units are going to be sold with Windows.  
> AFAIK, they even undercut the pirated Windows in China ;-).

Now there is something called a Chromebook which I think is basically a
netbook running Android.  I'd like to know if there are any impediments
to running a regular Linux distro instead.

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#17339

Paul Rubin wrote:
> In the case where the hardware manufacturer (Foxconn, Compal, etc.) is
> separate from the retail brand (e.g. Dell sells a lot of Compal gear,
> or did), I'd have expected that the retail brand supplies the OS, and
> therefore the Linux laptop specialty places really aren't buying
> Windows, but they still have to charge more for the laptops because
> they
> have less buying power and have to pay more for the hardware.  If the
> hardware manufacturers are having to license Windows, that's annoying
> :(.

Yes, it is.  And all the discussion more than 10 years ago about 
splitting up Microsoft would have better spent to "debundle" the license 
from the boxes, especially the "all units shipped".

If your rebate was closer to $100, this probably was a business laptop - 
these often enough sell to companies which already have a company-wide 
Microsoft license, and don't want to pay twice.  Then, the Windows 
license is a big deal, because it's only for a minority of the buyers.
hina ;-).

> Now there is something called a Chromebook which I think is basically
> a netbook running Android.  I'd like to know if there are any
> impediments to running a regular Linux distro instead.

No, seems to be a no-brainer to install Ubuntu on it:

http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/67014-samsungs-arm-powered-
chromebook-runs-ubuntu

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#17336

Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> > Most OEMs have a contract with Microsoft that goes "per machine sold", 
> I can tell you I bought a Lenovo-branded Thinkpad in 2008 or so (I'm
> still using it) with SuSE Linux that really did cost nontrivially less
> (I don't remember the amount, but closer to $100 than to $0) than the
> same hardware with Windows.  

If saving money is really the goal, buy a used laptop on eBay, download
a Linux install CD ISO (I mostly use Ubuntu here) and tread Linux onto
the laptop yourself.  A refurb unit from the manufacturer like:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-Aspire-One-10-1-Netbook-N2600-1-6GHz-Dual-core-1GB-320GB-AOD270-1606-/261128547509?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item3ccc796cb5

is $190.  That's quite a lot of portable computing for the price!

Installing Linux has become quite straightforward; I've been especially
impressed by the Ubuntu install process.  For this Acer, you'll need a
USB thumb drive or else a USB CD drive.  That should add like another $10
if you're one of the few remaining people on the planet without a USB
thumb drive....

Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

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#17337

Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> writes:
> If saving money is really the goal,

I think the goal also extends to avoiding donating money to Microsoft
given that the laptop won't be running Microsoft software.

>     http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-Aspire-One-10-1-Netbook
> is $190.  That's quite a lot of portable computing for the price!

You can get a brand new netbook for just a little more than that, so I'd
avoid the refurb.  But a netbook is not really a good development
machine.  Rick had mentioned wanting a 17" screen.  I.e. it's a desktop
replacement rather than something to take around everywhere.

> Installing Linux has become quite straightforward; I've been
> especially impressed by the Ubuntu install process.

Lately I'm staying away from Ubuntu which has become too commercial and
Windows-ish IMHO.  I'm using Fedora on laptops and Debian on servers.
Installation of both of those is also pretty easy.  Debian was hard to
install in the distant past, so I avoided it for a long time after some
early bad experiences, but at least the current stuff installs pretty
easily.

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#17338

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:09:18 -0800
> From: Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
> Subject: Re: Windows8
> 
> Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> writes:
>> If saving money is really the goal,
>
> I think the goal also extends to avoiding donating money to Microsoft
> given that the laptop won't be running Microsoft software.
>
>>     http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-Aspire-One-10-1-Netbook
>> is $190.  That's quite a lot of portable computing for the price!
>
> You can get a brand new netbook for just a little more than that, so I'd
> avoid the refurb.  But a netbook is not really a good development
> machine.  Rick had mentioned wanting a 17" screen.  I.e. it's a desktop
> replacement rather than something to take around everywhere.
>
>> Installing Linux has become quite straightforward; I've been
>> especially impressed by the Ubuntu install process.
>
> Lately I'm staying away from Ubuntu which has become too commercial and
> Windows-ish IMHO.  I'm using Fedora on laptops and Debian on servers.
> Installation of both of those is also pretty easy.  Debian was hard to
> install in the distant past, so I avoided it for a long time after some
> early bad experiences, but at least the current stuff installs pretty
> easily.
>

I agree with Ubuntu becoming too ... icky, but Debian seems to work well, 
and for a notebook, I've recently installed OpenSuse (12.2??), and it 
works very well indeed.

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#17290

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:12:42 PM UTC-5, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
> ... Right now, for instance, the only usable accounting software is Windows-only. So, even though I love my Mac, it's set up with dual-boot to Windows so I can run Quickbooks and Quicken when I need to. 

I can't believe it!

When I started with RSC-Forth in 1984, Mr. Streicher from Rockwell Munich, Germany, told me that he had written a book keeping program within an afternoon.

I am doing all my accounting using my own Forth programs, using original sources (bank statements etc.) as input, I don't have to type in any number. I can't understand that there isn't accounting software written in Forth. Would be so easy. If I would have known that it is possible too make money with accounting programs, I would have written one for other people. My own accounting programs written by myself in Forth I only use once a year to do my taxes, so it is still not a general purpose book keeping program. I know other people who wrote their own book keeping programs because they didn't like what is on the market.


> plays)... Windows 8. It's quite possible to buy a discounted, legal copy of Windows 7. Just google for it. Win7 was/is a pretty good system (as Windows versions go). I would recommend continuing with that rather than wrestling with Win8 for now. Cheers, Elizabeth --

I still use Windows XP, and I do not plan to switch to Windows 7 or 8. I would like to use Linux if there would be a Forth running on Linux as easy to use as Win32Forth.

Cheers,
Dirk.

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#17293

On 11/14/12 10:19 PM, visualforth@rocketmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:12:42 PM UTC-5, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>> ... Right now, for instance, the only usable accounting software is Windows-only. So, even though I love my Mac, it's set up with dual-boot to Windows so I can run Quickbooks and Quicken when I need to.
>
> I can't believe it!
>
> When I started with RSC-Forth in 1984, Mr. Streicher from Rockwell Munich, Germany, told me that he had written a book keeping program within an afternoon.
>
> I am doing all my accounting using my own Forth programs, using original sources (bank statements etc.) as input, I don't have to type in any number. I can't understand that there isn't accounting software written in Forth. Would be so easy. If I would have known that it is possible too make money with accounting programs, I would have written one for other people. My own accounting programs written by myself in Forth I only use once a year to do my taxes, so it is still not a general purpose book keeping program. I know other people who wrote their own book keeping programs because they didn't like what is on the market.
>
>
>> plays)... Windows 8. It's quite possible to buy a discounted, legal copy of Windows 7. Just google for it. Win7 was/is a pretty good system (as Windows versions go). I would recommend continuing with that rather than wrestling with Win8 for now. Cheers, Elizabeth --
>
> I still use Windows XP, and I do not plan to switch to Windows 7 or 8. I would like to use Linux if there would be a Forth running on Linux as easy to use as Win32Forth.
>
> Cheers,
> Dirk.
>

Yeah, Chuck and I wrote some accounting programs in Forth early on, and 
FORTH, Inc. used one of them until the late 1980's. Peachtree (a major 
supplier of PC-based accounting software) wrote their first programs 
using MacForth.

But today's reality is that the state-of-the-art is far more complex 
than that. The two outfits I do accounting for ($2M/yr and $150,000/yr) 
really require a level of support that DIY can't provide, unless I 
wanted to spend my waking hours working on it, which I do not!

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#17297

In article <4122372d-8762-41a1-ab2c-c94d425a414b@googlegroups.com>,
 <visualforth@rocketmail.com> wrote:
 <SNIP>
>
>I still use Windows XP, and I do not plan to switch to Windows 7 or 8. I
>would like to use Linux if there would be a Forth running on Linux as
>easy to use as Win32Forth.

Win32Forth "easy to use"? What are your criterions?

>
>Cheers,
>Dirk.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#17299

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:20:46 AM UTC-5, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> > In article <4122372d-8762-41a1-ab2c-c94d425a414bgooglegroups.com>, <visualforth.com> wrote: <SNIP> 
> > I still use Windows XP, and I do not plan to switch to Windows 7 or 8. 
> > I would like to use Linux if there would be a Forth running on Linux as 
> > easy to use as Win32Forth. 

> Win32Forth "easy to use"? What are your criterions? 

Thanks for asking! I can't explain - that's why I wrote "easy to use" only!

I only can count my past experience.

RSC-Forth was easy to use for me, F-PC was, UR/Forth was, Win32Forth is, and MPE's Forth for their Tiny ARM stamp.

I had difficulties using LMI's Forth for Windows and Swift Forth - I still have evaluation packages of these both on my computer, but I wasn't able to work with these. May be it's a personal thing.

Do you have similar experience? Did you write your own Forth because of problems with other Forth systems?

Cheers,
Dirk. 

P.S.: May be I should make a special topic about this!

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#17329

In article <50a4ddfe$0$3204$e4fe514c@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl>, 
albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) wrote:

> Win32Forth "easy to use"? What are your criterions?

 Well I would say a form designer and a toolbox. WinForth comes with 
both though of course not on the same scale as a commercial Windows 
development language like Delphi or Visual Basic. Windows calling 
conventions are a pain and having an environment that can do a lot of 
the foundation for you makes life easier. I have no idea if there is 
anything similar for Linux but the number of different desk tops 
available can not make things easy.

 Ken Young

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#17330

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 04:51:48 -0600, kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>Windows calling 
>conventions are a pain and having an environment that can do a lot of 
>the foundation for you makes life easier.

All the major Forths can make API calls, e.g. in VFX Forth the
code below is basically a copy and paste from the API documentation.

Extern: HANDLE PASCAL CreateAcceleratorTable(
  LPACCEL lpaccl, int cEntries
);

>I have no idea if there is 
>anything similar for Linux but the number of different desk tops 
>available can not make things easy.

VFX Forth can use GTK+ and Glade, which can also be used on Windows
and OS X.

Stephen

-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#17331

On Friday, November 16, 2012 5:51:49 AM UTC-5, ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> Well I would say a form designer and a toolbox. WinForth comes with both though of course not on the same scale as a commercial Windows development language like Delphi or Visual Basic... Ken Young

Take a look at visualFORTH!

www.visualFORTH.org

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#17665

On Friday, November 2, 2012 8:41:12 AM UTC-7, visua...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Reading a review on Windows8 tells me that Microsoft now has divided the MS-Computerworld into two parts: 
> 
> Windows8 for the Consumer-World and Windows7 for the Professionals,
> 
> and to make it worse, the Professionals have to deal with two types of hardware: the Intel-line and the ARM - that means different assembler code, or no assembler code any more.
> 
> 
> 
> Windows8 is not suited for Professionals until there is a Windows7-App or WindowsXP-App available, because only two Apps can be open at the same time. 
> 
> 
> 
> The era of windows, where you could open as many windows as you like, is over with Windows8. That's why I wrote Windows8 is for Consumers only.
> 
> May be you get multiple windows back if you buy and install a bunch of touch screen monitors.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting is that traditional Windows programs may run, but in case of a crash Windows8 recovers only Windows8 apps - all other apps have to be reinstalled manually. A second option wipes everything off, including your personal settings, and you get a fresh Windows8 again as it was delivered from factory.
> 
> 
> 
> May be there is a Windows8 upgrade soon.
> 
> It's strange that people don't recognize that Windows8 isn't good for windows anymore. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sources: 
> 
> 
> 
> 10 Things You Can Get From Windows 8 That Windows 7 Just Doesn't Have
> 
> http://www.hrsolutionjournal.com/launchpage.aspx?CID=347277&NUOSID=102246572
> 
> 
> 
> Windows 8 launch is a non-event for businesses
> 
> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/windows-8-launch-non-event-businesses
> 
> 
> 
> What about Forth?
> 
> Will there ever be a Forth for Windows8?

I hate win8.  Full screen out of desktop when I open a pdf and I have to ctl-tab out of it?  why not have it appear in the desktop model with a window and a taskbar icon?  you bastards.  I still can't switch off the small pic preview of every icon on the taskbar?  ff uu!! 

PS I would move to archlinux but I love myth2 and baldurs gate 1-6

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