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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #19527 > unrolled thread

3D-graphics calculations using integers?

Started byZbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com>
First post2013-02-07 22:51 +0100
Last post2013-02-10 00:06 -0500
Articles 20 on this page of 144 — 25 participants

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  3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 22:51 +0100
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-07 22:08 +0000
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:32 -0800
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:40 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:06 -0800
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:07 -0800
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:36 -0800
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:46 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 16:38 -1000
          Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 10:22 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-08 10:26 +0000
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 12:50 -1000
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:15 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-02-08 14:51 -0600
          Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:02 +0100
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:21 -0500
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:30 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:39 +0100
          Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:51 -0500
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 12:28 +0100
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-08 12:25 +0000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:04 +0100
                  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-09 15:27 +0000
                    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:36 +0100
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 05:01 -0800
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 21:58 +0100
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:08 -0500
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:11 -0500
                  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:05 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 08:29 -0800
                  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 18:48 +0100
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 17:20 -0500
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 23:32 +0100
                  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 23:57 -0500
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:02 -1000
                  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 02:24 +0100
                    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:58 -1000
                      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:43 +0100
                        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:03 -1000
                        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-10 11:35 +1100
                    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 23:48 -0800
                      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:37 +0100
                        OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 17:27 +0100
                          Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:06 -1000
                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-09 12:26 -0800
                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 14:38 -1000
                                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 12:52 -0500
                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-22 09:25 -1000
                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-10 08:15 -0600
                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 23:34 -0800
                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2013-02-11 22:14 +0000
                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-11 13:34 -1000
                            Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-11 11:52 +1100
                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 17:11 -0800
                              Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-10 22:06 -1000
                                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Charles Childers" <crc@retroforth.org> - 2013-02-11 17:17 -0500
                                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-13 11:42 +1100
                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-12 16:07 -1000
                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-15 09:42 +1100
                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-15 00:16 +0100
                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-17 16:05 +1100
                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 04:16 -0800
                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-17 13:12 +0000
                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 09:15 -0800
                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-19 09:35 -0800
                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 19:25 +0000
                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 15:35 -0600
                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:37 -0800
                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 23:07 -1000
                                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:38 -0800
                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 08:50 -1000
                                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:44 -0800
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 03:41 +0000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 20:00 -0800
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-24 13:49 +0000
                                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 15:04 +0000
                                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 14:52 -0800
                                                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 23:51 +0000
                                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 16:23 -0800
                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 03:55 -0600
                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 13:01 -0500
                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-22 12:26 -0600
                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 21:54 +0000
                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 18:21 -0600
                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-20 08:45 -0800
                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-20 11:01 -0800
                                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 11:25 -1000
                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:22 -0800
                                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 22:50 -1000
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:08 -0800
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-21 12:42 +0000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:50 +0100
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:36 -0800
                                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:32 +0100
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:50 -0800
                                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 03:03 +0100
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 09:12 -0800
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:38 -0800
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:01 -1000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-22 00:05 +0200
                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:24 +0100
                                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:33 -0800
                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 13:04 -0600
                                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:41 +0100
                                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:31 -0800
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-23 09:15 +0000
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:33 -0600
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:49 +0000
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:35 -0500
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:46 -0500
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:26 -0800
                                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-24 09:41 -0500
                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:09 -1000
                                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:37 -0800
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:57 +0000
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-23 08:47 -1000
                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:27 +0100
                                                        Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:16 -0800
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:36 -0600
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-23 16:52 +0000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 12:39 -0800
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 16:27 +0000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-23 18:08 -0500
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 02:20 +0100
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 20:16 -0800
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:04 +0100
                                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-25 17:12 +0000
                                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:44 +0100
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:45 +0100
                                                          Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-24 02:09 +0000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 04:03 +0100
                                                              Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 17:58 +0000
                                                                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:57 +0100
                                                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-02 16:43 +0000
                                                                    Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-02 18:14 +0100
                                                                      Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 13:56 +0000
                                                            Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-24 03:45 -0600
                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-13 04:12 -0600
                                  Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-13 12:24 +0000
                              Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-11 14:41 +0000
                              Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-11 19:44 +0000
                                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-11 21:14 +0000
                    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-09 18:14 -0600
                    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 00:06 -0500

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#19769 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

From"Ed" <invalid@nospam.com>
Date2013-02-17 16:05 +1100
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<kfpoft$3j8$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to#19740
Zbiggy wrote:
> In comp.lang.forth, Ed wrote:
>
> > If having the lowest number of users and vendors in its history and being
> > reduced to securing votes from lurkers on a usenet group is surviving well,
> > then Forth is indeed a most unusual language.
>
> I've got a feeling, it may change during following years. There are numerous
> designs of new "home-computer" generations:
>
> - commercial:
>
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2057605091/p112-single-board-computer-kit
> http://www.xgamestation.com/
> http://propellerpowered.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_73&product_id=55
>
>
> - "homebrew":
>
> http://www.msarnoff.org/6809/
> https://sites.google.com/site/retroelec/
> http://sbc.rictor.org/
> http://www.rickard.gunee.com/projects/
> http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/craft/
>
> As I see, presently they mostly program their designs in assembler, or C.
> But soon most of these people will find, that Forth is better suited for
> this...

I think hobby Forth will be around for quite some time but interest will
remain small.

Forth's lack of acceptance isn't due to ignorance but its quirkyness.
I hear comments like: "Yes, I've played with Forth and tried a few things.
It was fun, however it's not for me."  Forth is not what most folks expect
of a high-level language.  This is true even among Forth users.


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#19770 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromHowerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2013-02-17 04:16 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<3f94bc5e-70cd-4e20-8367-c5fae9078531@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#19769
On Sunday, February 17, 2013 6:05:18 AM UTC+1, Ed wrote:
> Zbiggy wrote:
> 
> > In comp.lang.forth, Ed wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > > If having the lowest number of users and vendors in its history and being
> 
> > > reduced to securing votes from lurkers on a usenet group is surviving well,
> 
> > > then Forth is indeed a most unusual language.
> 
> >
> 
> > I've got a feeling, it may change during following years. There are numerous
> 
> > designs of new "home-computer" generations:
> 
> >
> 
> > - commercial:
> 
> >
> 
> > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2057605091/p112-single-board-computer-kit
> 
> > http://www.xgamestation.com/
> 
> > http://propellerpowered.us/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_73&product_id=55
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> > - "homebrew":
> 
> >
> 
> > http://www.msarnoff.org/6809/
> 
> > https://sites.google.com/site/retroelec/
> 
> > http://sbc.rictor.org/
> 
> > http://www.rickard.gunee.com/projects/
> 
> > http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/craft/
> 
> >
> 
> > As I see, presently they mostly program their designs in assembler, or C.
> 
> > But soon most of these people will find, that Forth is better suited for
> 
> > this...
> 
> 
> 
> I think hobby Forth will be around for quite some time but interest will
> 
> remain small.
> 
> 
> 
> Forth's lack of acceptance isn't due to ignorance but its quirkyness.
> 
> I hear comments like: "Yes, I've played with Forth and tried a few things.
> 
> It was fun, however it's not for me."  Forth is not what most folks expect
> 
> of a high-level language.  This is true even among Forth users.

Hi Ed,

> Forth's lack of acceptance isn't due to ignorance but its quirkyness.
If by "quirkiness" you mean that Forth is not like other mainstream languages, I would agree, and this certainly puts people off using it.

> Forth is not what most folks expect of a high-level language.
I agree with this too.

> I think hobby Forth will be around for quite some time but interest will
> remain small.

What is interesting about your post is that I agree with almost everything that you say, but I do not agree with two things that I infer from the way that you say them :
1. That Forth's lack of popularity is somehow a failure of Forth as a language
2. That Forth's lack of popularity is necessarily a bad thing

> Forth's lack of acceptance isn't due to ignorance
Agreed - some people like Forth, other people will never like Forth however much they know about it.

> I think hobby Forth will be around for quite some time but interest will
> remain small.
I think that Forth will always be less popular than any language that is supported by billion dollar companies, taught in Computer Science classes and heavily advertised as the latest and best way to program.
But maybe interest will pick up. Mainstream computer languages are getting more complicated, as attempts to "lock in" customers get more difficult, so it could be that its time for simplicity to make a comeback.

I see a parallel with the music industry - however much MTV produces heavily marketed products aimed at particular demographics there will always be some people that just want to make music. Thank God for Mumford & Sons, for example ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MkpBqGPS7g ). 

Similarly there will always be a need for C#/.Net, or whatever the latest language is, because people want job security, and for that you need a mass market. 

Forth could never be adopted by Microsoft, for example, because it does not provide enough "lock in" to make it profitable. 
But for individual users such as myself, and hobby programmers, it makes a wonderfully powerful tool.

Just my 2p worth...

Best regards,
Howerd








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#19772 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

Fromalbert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date2013-02-17 13:12 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<5120d75a$0$26884$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#19770
In article <3f94bc5e-70cd-4e20-8367-c5fae9078531@googlegroups.com>,
Howerd  <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
>Similarly there will always be a need for C#/.Net, or whatever the
>latest language is, because people want job security, and for that you
>need a mass market.

The inventor of C# had the same drive as CHuck Moore. Don't blame C#
because it was adopted by Microsoft.

>
>Forth could never be adopted by Microsoft, for example, because it does
>not provide enough "lock in" to make it profitable.

They adopted C# to kill Java, for sure.

>But for individual users such as myself, and hobby programmers, it makes
>a wonderfully powerful tool.

Same can be said from C# ...
>
>Just my 2p worth...
>
>Best regards,
>Howerd

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#19776 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromHowerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2013-02-17 09:15 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<febbe8e1-63e9-46c7-a8ff-a5ced30de1da@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#19772
On Sunday, February 17, 2013 2:12:58 PM UTC+1, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <3f94bc5e-70cd-4e20-8367-c5faexxxxxxxx@googlegroups.com>,
> 
> Howerd  <howxxxx@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> >
> 
> >Similarly there will always be a need for C#/.Net, or whatever the
> 
> >latest language is, because people want job security, and for that you
> 
> >need a mass market.
> 
> 
> 
> The inventor of C# had the same drive as CHuck Moore. Don't blame C#
> 
> because it was adopted by Microsoft.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> 
> >Forth could never be adopted by Microsoft, for example, because it does
> 
> >not provide enough "lock in" to make it profitable.
> 
> 
> 
> They adopted C# to kill Java, for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> >But for individual users such as myself, and hobby programmers, it makes
> 
> >a wonderfully powerful tool.
> 
> 
> 
> Same can be said from C# ...
> 
> >
> 
> >Just my 2p worth...
> 
> >
> 
> >Best regards,
> 
> >Howerd
> 
> 
> 
> Groetjes Albert
> 
> -- 
> 
> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
> 
> Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
> 
> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Hi Albert,

> Same can be said from C# ...
Yes - there is even an open source C# compiler : http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
Wonderful and powerful though this is, I could not find a .NET CLR for the MSP430 ;-) Maybe this will be included in a later update of Windows 8?

Its horses for courses here :-)

Best regards,
Howerd

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#19822 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromBrad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com>
Date2013-02-19 09:35 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<6010e112-93d6-4541-9ba8-2dc4020eec0c@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#19769
On Saturday, February 16, 2013 10:05:18 PM UTC-7, Ed wrote:
> 
> Forth's lack of acceptance isn't due to ignorance but its quirkyness.
> I hear comments like: "Yes, I've played with Forth and tried a few things.
> It was fun, however it's not for me."  Forth is not what most folks expect
> of a high-level language.  This is true even among Forth users.

They want Forth to work the way they were taught that programming languages should work. Nobody likes to un-learn stuff because overriding the ego is hard.

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#19827 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromAndy Valencia <user@vsta.org>
Date2013-02-19 19:25 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<20130219191650.21147.66122@Nokia-N810-43-7>
In reply to#19822
Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> writes:
> They want Forth to work the way they were taught that programming languages
> should work. Nobody likes to un-learn stuff because overriding the ego is
> hard. 

This is true of any innovative language.  Having done the exercise multiple
times, I can say as a high level language Forth did not compare well at all
to Python, Prolog, OCaml, Erlang.  For low level/embedded, it always lagged
behind C.  I've written a *lot* of Forth, and I still believe C comes out
way ahead.

Its true strength is that it provides a simple language model which lends
itself to implementation with a modest amount of effort.  And that this small
model often provides a sweet spot when facing the limitations of the 16-bit
world.  It also provides a nostalgic return to simplicity in a world of
massively layered software.

Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

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#19830 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2013-02-19 15:35 -0600
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<O4ednUuOcsG7bb7MnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#19827
Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> wrote:
> Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> writes:
>> They want Forth to work the way they were taught that programming languages
>> should work. Nobody likes to un-learn stuff because overriding the ego is
>> hard. 
> 
> This is true of any innovative language.  Having done the exercise
> multiple times, I can say as a high level language Forth did not
> compare well at all to Python, Prolog, OCaml, Erlang.  For low
> level/embedded, it always lagged behind C.  I've written a *lot* of
> Forth, and I still believe C comes out way ahead.

Oh come on, this is bloody ridiculous.  I can understand the argument
about higher-level languages like Python, but C for embedded work?  C
is crude, it has very limited extensibiity, it has a mess of tools:
compilers, linkers, makefiles, debuggers.  And even then it doesn't
have an interactive environment.  The lack of extensibility means that
whatever the language designer provides had better better be right,
because you're not going to get anything better.  And yes, I know
there are IDEs that make up for some of this, but I've never seen
anything that can approach the ease of development and interactivity
of an embedded Forth system.  And, as a GCC developer, I have more
than a passing familiarity with C.

> Its true strength is that it provides a simple language model which
> lends itself to implementation with a modest amount of effort.  And
> that this small model often provides a sweet spot when facing the
> limitations of the 16-bit world.  It also provides a nostalgic
> return to simplicity in a world of massively layered software.

Well, yes it does.  And this is a bad thing?

Andrew.

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#19862 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2013-02-21 00:37 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<7xehgakqpc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#19830
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
> C for embedded work?  C is crude, it has very limited extensibiity...,
> there are IDEs that make up for some of this, but I've never seen
> anything that can approach the ease of development and interactivity
> of an embedded Forth system.

I'd be interested to know what kinds of features a Forth environment
needs to supply this ease of development.  Are you talking about
interacting with a resident Forth on the embedded target?  Does it have
its own way to edit and save and re-run source code (maybe with
blocks/screens), instead of having to keep re-typing it at a serial
port?  If not, did you use some kind of cross-development system and
reload source code from a remote host?  Do those dev environments have a
way to start and stop a multi-tasker so you can inspect task data from
an interactive Forth shell?

What little Forth hacking I've done has been in gforth, which has pretty
good checks and diagnostics for all kinds of program errors.  I get the
impression that embedded Forths are much less helpful about that, making
debugging all the more painful.

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#19864 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2013-02-20 23:07 -1000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<QuWdnTSVx80hfrjMnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#19862
On 2/20/13 10:37 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>> C for embedded work?  C is crude, it has very limited extensibiity...,
>> there are IDEs that make up for some of this, but I've never seen
>> anything that can approach the ease of development and interactivity
>> of an embedded Forth system.
>
> I'd be interested to know what kinds of features a Forth environment
> needs to supply this ease of development.  Are you talking about
> interacting with a resident Forth on the embedded target?  Does it have
> its own way to edit and save and re-run source code (maybe with
> blocks/screens), instead of having to keep re-typing it at a serial
> port?  If not, did you use some kind of cross-development system and
> reload source code from a remote host?  Do those dev environments have a
> way to start and stop a multi-tasker so you can inspect task data from
> an interactive Forth shell?
>
> What little Forth hacking I've done has been in gforth, which has pretty
> good checks and diagnostics for all kinds of program errors.  I get the
> impression that embedded Forths are much less helpful about that, making
> debugging all the more painful.

SwiftX uses an umbilical link to the target. In olden times it was 
serial, but nowadays it's more commonly USB or other fast connections, 
sometimes JTAG. Compiling is done on the host, which generates a program 
image and downloads it to the target. The compiling is extremely fast 
(~1s or less, even for fairly large programs), and downloading is pretty 
quick, depending on the details of the interface - they vary a lot.

Only the executable code & initialized data space is downloaded. The 
host retains the heads of all words, with links to their target image. 
So, testing is just like on a resident system: put arguments on the 
stack and type a word. The host passes its stack to the target, asks the 
target to execute the word, and gets its stack back. You can examine 
target memory, ports, etc. There is no perceptible time delay -- it 
feels just like working on your resident system.

If you want to, you can type in a definition and it is automatically 
compiled (to target code), downloaded, and it's ready to test.

If your target program has multiple tasks, the one supporting the 
umbilical link lets you observe the others, including user variables and 
global variables they're managing, etc.

A resident Forth on the target is somewhat more trouble, but they 
usually do let you keep your source in a file on the host and download 
the whole thing. If the link is USB or another fast technology it's not 
so bad.

If you're really curious about this, you should download a free trial 
version of SwiftX for a target you have or can get, and check it out.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#19866 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2013-02-21 01:38 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<7xk3q26m87.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#19864
"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
> SwiftX uses an umbilical link to the target..... Compiling is done on
> the host...  Only the executable code & initialized data space is
> downloaded.., testing is just like on a resident system: put
> arguments on the stack and type a word. The host passes its stack to
> the target, asks the target to execute the word, and gets its stack
> back. You can examine target memory, ports, etc. There is no
> perceptible time delay -- it feels just like working on your resident
> system.

Thanks, this sounds pretty neat, though relatively complex compared to a
classic resident interpreter.  

> A resident Forth on the target is somewhat more trouble, but they
> usually do let you keep your source in a file on the host and download
> the whole thing. If the link is USB or another fast technology it's
> not so bad.

I guess that makes sense.  Now I'm wondering about the possibility of
having a complete IDE in a target microcontroller, with a block editor
saving source code to program flash.  There are quite a few midsized and
larger microcontrollers that would be plausible targets for this.

> If you're really curious about this, you should download a free trial
> version of SwiftX for a target you have or can get, and check it out.

I might try that sometime.  I'm also interested in how it was done
historically, in the old 16-bit systems.

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#19883 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

From"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Date2013-02-21 08:50 -1000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<N46dnYYkgMXq8bvMnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#19866
On 2/20/13 11:38 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>> SwiftX uses an umbilical link to the target..... Compiling is done on
>> the host...  Only the executable code & initialized data space is
>> downloaded.., testing is just like on a resident system: put
>> arguments on the stack and type a word. The host passes its stack to
>> the target, asks the target to execute the word, and gets its stack
>> back. You can examine target memory, ports, etc. There is no
>> perceptible time delay -- it feels just like working on your resident
>> system.
>
> Thanks, this sounds pretty neat, though relatively complex compared to a
> classic resident interpreter.

Yes, it is more complex, but it delivers target code that is far more 
compact and significantly faster, thanks to sophisticated optimizing 
compilers which can run on a PC host but are impractical in a 
limited-space target. This is the technology that works for 
professional, production applications.

The concept started in the early 80's, addressing the smaller 
microcontrollers such as the 8051. It has evolved over the years so 
that, although rather complex on the inside, it is extremely simple to use.

>> A resident Forth on the target is somewhat more trouble, but they
>> usually do let you keep your source in a file on the host and download
>> the whole thing. If the link is USB or another fast technology it's
>> not so bad.
>
> I guess that makes sense.  Now I'm wondering about the possibility of
> having a complete IDE in a target microcontroller, with a block editor
> saving source code to program flash.  There are quite a few midsized and
> larger microcontrollers that would be plausible targets for this.

Sure, that can work. But harken back to the discussion we were just 
having about Forths that leave the compiler, etc., in place in a 
finished program. This is a very innocuous practice on a PC with Gb of 
memory, but the tradeoffs in an embedded system are quite different.

>> If you're really curious about this, you should download a free trial
>> version of SwiftX for a target you have or can get, and check it out.
>
> I might try that sometime.  I'm also interested in how it was done
> historically, in the old 16-bit systems.

As I described above, although for professional projects this concept 
only survived for a few years (late 70's to mid-80's).

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

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#19970 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2013-02-23 15:44 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<7xk3pyd287.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#19883
"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>> Now I'm wondering about the possibility of having a complete IDE in a
>> target microcontroller...
> ... This is a very innocuous practice on a PC with Gb of memory, but
> the tradeoffs in an embedded system are quite different.

Yeah, I'm thinking of microcontrollers with relatively plentiful program
space.  E.g. the Stellaris Launchpad (Cortex M4F procesor) has 256K of
program flash and 32K of ram, quite a bit more program space than the
classic 16-bit computers had, and would presumably work fine.  The MSP430
Launchpad (16k flash, 512B ram) is probably too constrained.  The KL05
Freedom board (ARM Cortex M0+, 32k flash, 4k ram) might be marginally
enough.  What I'm not sure is whether the flash erase commands on these
chips are capable of erasing 1K pages as a block system would need.

> As I described above, although for professional projects this concept
> only survived for a few years (late 70's to mid-80's).

That's a good point.  I had been imagining those systems staying in
use for a lot longer.

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#19980 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

Fromalbert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date2013-02-24 03:41 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<51298bd3$0$610$e4fe514c@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#19970
In article <7xk3pyd287.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Paul Rubin  <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>>> Now I'm wondering about the possibility of having a complete IDE in a
>>> target microcontroller...
>> ... This is a very innocuous practice on a PC with Gb of memory, but
>> the tradeoffs in an embedded system are quite different.
>
>Yeah, I'm thinking of microcontrollers with relatively plentiful program
>space.  E.g. the Stellaris Launchpad (Cortex M4F procesor) has 256K of
>program flash and 32K of ram, quite a bit more program space than the
>classic 16-bit computers had, and would presumably work fine.  The MSP430
>Launchpad (16k flash, 512B ram) is probably too constrained.  The KL05
>Freedom board (ARM Cortex M0+, 32k flash, 4k ram) might be marginally
>enough.  What I'm not sure is whether the flash erase commands on these
>chips are capable of erasing 1K pages as a block system would need.

For the Launchpad, it is probably best to map blocks onto an sd card.
That can be used for other traditional uses like data aquisition.
All of the flash is usable as program memory (unlike e.g. the Renesas
chips).

>
>> As I described above, although for professional projects this concept
>> only survived for a few years (late 70's to mid-80's).
>
>That's a good point.  I had been imagining those systems staying in
>use for a lot longer.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#19981 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2013-02-23 20:00 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<7xbobapdie.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#19980
albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
> For the Launchpad, it is probably best to map blocks onto an sd card.

None of the Launchpads support SD cards as far as I know.  Maybe there
is a way to communicate with an SD card through GPIO pins but that
would be kind of extreme.

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#19987 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromstephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc)
Date2013-02-24 13:49 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<512a19f7.988062534@192.168.0.50>
In reply to#19981
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 20:00:25 -0800, Paul Rubin
<no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
>> For the Launchpad, it is probably best to map blocks onto an sd card.
>
>None of the Launchpads support SD cards as far as I know.  Maybe there
>is a way to communicate with an SD card through GPIO pins but that
>would be kind of extreme.

Most SD cards still support SPI mode. Most microcontrollers have an
SPI port. If you are desparate or cheap, you can easily write a
bit-banged driver.

Stephen


-- 
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

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#19989 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

Fromalbert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date2013-02-24 15:04 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<512a2bf3$0$26901$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#19987
In article <512a19f7.988062534@192.168.0.50>,
Stephen Pelc <stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeforth.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 20:00:25 -0800, Paul Rubin
><no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
>>> For the Launchpad, it is probably best to map blocks onto an sd card.
>>
>>None of the Launchpads support SD cards as far as I know.  Maybe there
>>is a way to communicate with an SD card through GPIO pins but that
>>would be kind of extreme.
>
>Most SD cards still support SPI mode. Most microcontrollers have an
>SPI port. If you are desparate or cheap, you can easily write a
>bit-banged driver.

What would you think of a 5 euro card? We're cheap!
Buy a 2 euro micro-sd card with a sd enclosure, and solder the
enclosure to a header. Or just solder to the gold pads of a normal
sd card. The bit banged driver has been written a long time ago
for the 8051 Byteforth.

>
>Stephen

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#19997 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2013-02-24 14:52 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<7x8v6dfhoh.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#19989
albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
> Buy a 2 euro micro-sd card with a sd enclosure, and solder the
> enclosure to a header.

Adding this amount of external hardware somewhat defeats the point of
those highly integrated SOC's.  You might as well use a Raspberry Pi or
something like that, with a more workstation-like development
environment.

In my case I've been thinking of building a certain embedded gadget that
has to be quite small and low powered, but at the same time have a
certain amount of user-level configurability.  The typical approach
would be to just have some closed UI functions that adjust the config
parameters.  A more flexible approach for technical users would be to
have a communication port speaking some simple binary protocol, and a
special purpose PC or phone application that configures the device using
the protocol.

It seems to me though that having a completely resident Forth in the
device that the user can control from a generic terminal emulator would
be cooler still, so I've been playing with the idea.

This is all at the level of "in my nonexistent free time" though,
i.e. pretty much a thought exercise and likely to stay that way.

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#20000 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

Fromalbert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date2013-02-24 23:51 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<512aa769$0$26874$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl>
In reply to#19997
In article <7x8v6dfhoh.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Paul Rubin  <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
>> Buy a 2 euro micro-sd card with a sd enclosure, and solder the
>> enclosure to a header.
>
>Adding this amount of external hardware somewhat defeats the point of
>those highly integrated SOC's.  You might as well use a Raspberry Pi or
>something like that, with a more workstation-like development
>environment.

You must be kidding. Whenever you do something with the Launcpad, you
have to solder something to it. A DB9 connector (to play the tingle tangle)
, a temperature sensor, an lcd display, relays, buttons.
Why are you upset when I add an sd card?

Groetjes Albert.
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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#20002 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2013-02-24 16:23 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<7x38wlkzqg.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#20000
albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) writes:
> You must be kidding. Whenever you do something with the Launcpad, you
> have to solder something to it. A DB9 connector (to play the tingle tangle)
> , a temperature sensor, an lcd display, relays, buttons.
> Why are you upset when I add an sd card?

Well usually it's just header pins, no soldering ;-).  For the Launchpad
itself I guess an external socketed SD is less of a big deal.  If the
idea is to use the Launchpad as a development tool for an eventual much
smaller embedded circuit, then that circuit has to minimize the external
parts.

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#19869 — Re: OT: ANS Forth

FromAndrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Date2013-02-21 03:55 -0600
SubjectRe: OT: ANS Forth
Message-ID<OJudnbK5U6mKcrjMnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@supernews.com>
In reply to#19862
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>> C for embedded work?  C is crude, it has very limited extensibiity...,
>> there are IDEs that make up for some of this, but I've never seen
>> anything that can approach the ease of development and interactivity
>> of an embedded Forth system.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what kinds of features a Forth environment
> needs to supply this ease of development.  Are you talking about
> interacting with a resident Forth on the embedded target? 

I've used both resident Forths on embedded targets and
chipFORTH/umbilical-style systems.  On balance, the latter is
preferable because the host machine is much more powerful.

> Does it have its own way to edit and save and re-run source code
> (maybe with blocks/screens), instead of having to keep re-typing it
> at a serial port? 

Oh heavens, yes.  I've never done anything like re-typing at a serial
port.

> If not, did you use some kind of cross-development system and reload
> source code from a remote host? 

I've done that too.

> Do those dev environments have a way to start and stop a multi-
> tasker so you can inspect task data from an interactive Forth shell?

It'd be trivial to add that, but I've never wanted it.  As I was
saying, if a system is really flexible and comprehensible you don't
every debugging facility to be dreamt up by the system's author.

Andrew.

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