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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #27495 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-12-28 23:39 -0800 |
| Last post | 2014-01-03 14:52 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 330 — 25 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-28 23:39 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-28 21:52 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-12-29 11:28 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-29 23:12 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-29 07:45 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-12-29 18:33 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-29 16:57 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 00:25 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-01 13:29 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-01 14:18 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-01-01 15:46 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-01-01 15:26 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-03 13:22 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-01-03 11:54 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-06 10:57 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-03 14:07 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-06 12:42 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 14:22 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-03 09:06 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 11:10 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-04 11:49 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-05 13:14 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-04 16:35 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-05 11:35 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-05 06:15 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-05 15:11 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-05 10:07 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-05 21:14 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-06 04:44 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-06 12:42 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-06 21:51 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-06 22:41 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-07 03:29 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2014-01-07 11:48 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-07 12:58 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-07 15:13 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-07 10:22 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-08 02:20 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-07 14:13 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-09 23:19 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-10 17:19 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-10 09:02 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-13 13:28 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-14 09:05 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? mhx@iae.nl - 2014-01-14 04:05 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-14 12:36 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-15 11:37 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-13 17:07 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-11 01:40 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-13 11:21 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-01-13 01:50 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-13 12:05 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-13 03:19 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-13 03:36 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-12 19:22 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-11 17:09 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-02 17:06 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-02 08:13 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-02 18:59 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 12:54 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 07:19 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-12-29 22:32 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 16:46 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-12-30 18:37 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 11:53 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:21 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:03 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 18:09 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:43 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 16:52 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-02 08:32 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-05 13:26 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-04 16:55 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-07 12:45 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-06 22:15 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-15 08:39 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-05 12:53 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-02 13:45 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-01-02 20:17 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 04:03 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 13:43 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 11:53 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-01 23:57 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-01 13:19 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-02 19:48 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-02 19:13 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-02 15:44 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-02 23:56 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-02 15:43 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-02 15:34 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 04:14 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-03 17:49 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 12:03 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-03 10:31 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-03 19:19 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-03 09:56 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-04 04:18 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-04 12:39 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-03 21:43 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-03 13:45 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-03 23:10 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-03 15:41 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-10 22:05 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-04 04:21 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2014-01-10 06:46 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-07 13:33 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-07 08:44 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-08 14:52 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-08 08:41 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 08:14 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-07 18:41 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-08 15:09 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-08 20:00 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-08 12:45 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-09 00:16 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-10 22:34 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-10 22:41 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-10 23:12 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-10 23:04 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-10 22:08 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-09 02:16 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 04:18 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 11:19 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 09:04 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-10 17:27 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-10 11:37 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2014-01-10 12:47 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-10 13:37 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2014-01-10 14:24 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-13 16:53 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-09 14:50 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 09:08 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-09 18:33 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 12:32 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-09 20:49 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 09:10 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-09 14:37 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-07 08:48 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-08 15:24 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-08 08:50 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 08:28 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-08 16:21 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 09:39 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 04:28 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 11:27 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-09 14:42 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 09:41 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-09 18:44 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 12:35 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-10 00:20 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-10 05:22 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-01-10 03:48 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-10 09:31 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-09 09:40 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-10 21:54 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-11 03:41 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-11 13:33 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-11 11:44 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-11 10:40 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-11 04:11 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-11 13:31 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-11 07:52 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-11 19:35 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-12 02:57 -0600
chipFORTH [Was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-12 03:12 -0600
Re: chipFORTH Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-12 08:43 -0800
Re: chipFORTH Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-12 10:40 -0600
Re: chipFORTH albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-12 18:00 +0000
Re: chipFORTH Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-01-12 11:18 -0800
Re: chipFORTH anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-13 16:03 +0000
Re: chipFORTH "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-01-13 17:21 +0000
Re: chipFORTH stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-13 19:10 +0000
Re: chipFORTH [Was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?] "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-01-13 02:28 -0500
Re: chipFORTH [Was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?] Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-12 21:39 -1000
Re: chipFORTH [Was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?] Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-13 03:16 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-12 11:38 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-12 07:46 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-13 15:46 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-13 10:45 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-13 19:05 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-13 20:53 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-14 03:41 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-14 13:07 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-14 17:53 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-14 17:35 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-14 08:23 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-14 13:19 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2014-01-14 12:31 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-14 21:37 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-14 16:12 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-14 12:18 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-15 04:19 +0100
DOES> and flash (was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-15 17:52 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash (was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-15 21:56 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash (was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-16 09:30 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-01-17 12:44 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash oh2aun@gmail.com - 2014-01-17 08:05 -0800
Re: DOES> and flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-17 16:43 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-17 20:37 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-18 04:40 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-18 11:56 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-18 10:54 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-18 17:36 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-18 12:17 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-18 18:23 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-18 14:00 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-18 20:24 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-18 14:05 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-18 23:12 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-19 03:38 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-19 14:03 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-19 09:17 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-19 15:31 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-19 19:48 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-18 18:11 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-01-19 01:12 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-19 21:53 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-01-20 11:32 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash (was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-16 02:02 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-01-16 07:19 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-16 00:22 -0800
Re: DOES> and flash Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-16 15:38 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2014-01-20 09:45 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash (was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-16 09:33 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash (was: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based?) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-16 16:09 +0100
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-17 03:28 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-17 11:39 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-17 08:16 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-01-17 16:06 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-18 17:21 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-19 12:32 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-19 09:19 -0600
Re: DOES> and flash stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-19 18:20 +0000
Re: DOES> and flash Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-20 01:25 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-14 08:31 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-14 01:33 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-14 10:05 +0000
CREATE...DOES> on program-in-flash systems anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-14 11:58 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-11 08:43 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-11 19:37 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-11 11:28 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-11 12:24 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-03 18:19 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-03 22:03 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 13:28 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-03 15:09 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-02 03:41 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 18:09 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 04:16 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-02 22:58 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2013-12-29 22:34 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-29 19:30 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-29 22:49 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? AKK <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-12-30 08:48 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 16:24 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 11:18 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:32 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:05 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 11:02 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-02 05:48 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 11:00 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-31 21:42 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-12-30 09:14 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 03:35 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 16:06 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 10:41 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:50 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:21 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 11:21 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-02 07:08 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 11:13 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 07:36 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 15:23 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <firth@trstn.net> - 2014-01-03 16:02 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-03 08:54 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <firth@trstn.net> - 2014-01-03 19:59 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-03 10:12 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <st@trstn.net> - 2014-01-03 20:17 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <firth@trstn.net> - 2014-01-03 20:29 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-03 11:48 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-04 12:00 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <firth@trstn.net> - 2014-01-04 13:12 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-04 08:22 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-01-10 21:37 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-02 16:58 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-02 16:41 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-01-02 16:54 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-02 23:22 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-02 23:20 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 11:56 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-30 08:14 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:54 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-31 23:15 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-31 07:05 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-31 09:26 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-01 13:27 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-31 18:21 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-01-01 12:12 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-03 15:59 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? mhx@iae.nl - 2014-01-03 00:19 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-05 13:25 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? mhx@iae.nl - 2014-01-04 19:03 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-06 14:08 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2014-01-06 01:47 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-07 12:43 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-08 13:29 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-01-08 16:30 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2014-01-11 23:12 +1100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 14:30 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2014-01-04 13:57 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-04 12:17 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-04 15:08 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-05 04:57 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-01-05 09:14 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-05 12:20 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-08 13:05 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-01-08 08:55 -1000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-09 08:49 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-01-19 11:24 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2014-01-04 16:06 -0800
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-07 13:47 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <firth@trstn.net> - 2013-12-30 18:29 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 09:34 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-01-02 20:06 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-01-03 11:34 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnohavenotit.cnm> - 2014-01-03 08:04 -0500
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-01-03 07:38 -0600
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2014-01-03 15:57 +0100
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-03 14:17 +0000
Re: PICK changed from 1-based to 0-based? Tristan Plumb <firth@trstn.net> - 2014-01-03 14:52 +0000
Page 2 of 17 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 … 17 Next page →
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-04 11:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2014Jan4.124902@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #27644 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>> Gforth changed division from platform-specific (but probably symmetric
>> everywhere) to floored... and nobody complained. The performance
>> impact was small even for pure division microbenchmarks:
>
>That's probably because of interpreter overhead.
Doubtful. Division is so slow that the small overhead of Gforth is
relatively small. You can also see that in the times for the 0.6.2
mixed division words. If intepreter overhead was dominating, the
speed factor between the 0.6.2 and the newer implementation would
me much smaller.
>In (compiled) ghc,
>`quot` (symmetric) is significantly faster than `mod` (floored), enough
>to make a real difference in the running speed of certain programs.
My guess is that they don't know how to implement mod efficiently.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2013: http://www.euroforth.org/ef13/
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| From | "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-05 13:14 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <laaf88$q7i$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #27638 |
Anton Ertl wrote: > "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> writes: > >Forth is empirically based. It matters whether a majority of cases favour a > >particular solution. It was this that drove the decision to make PICK and > >ROLL zero-based - even at the expense of breaking code. > > Please enlighten me about the empirical basis of "zero-based" PICK and > ROLL. When the index is computed, zero-based is optimum. > > >Short-term > >pain for long-term gain. > > Long-term pain for no gain. Clearly not. PICK and ROLL have been zero-based since '83 and '94. Where are the long-term complaints? > >Floored integer division favoured the majority of > >cases but completely ignored the reality of hardware division which was > >symmetric. The result - long-term pain. > > What pain? How many times do you need to be reminded? Several vendors refused to adopt '83 division, opting for conventional division. '94 chose a political compromise which even mathematicians saw as crazy. This saga has been going for 30+ years. It's time Forth ended it. > Gforth changed division from platform-specific (but > probably symmetric everywhere) to floored (symmetric could be chosen > as a build option), and nobody complained. The performanc impact was > small even for pure division microbenchmarks: > > From <2007Jan26.165751@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> > > | development 0.6.2 > | floored symmetric symmetric > |/ 194 ms 181 ms 175 ms > |mod 197 ms 181 ms 175 ms > |/mod 193 ms 183 ms 175 ms > |*/ 252 ms 250 ms 908 ms > |*/mod 258 ms 259 ms 885 ms > |fm/mod 278 ms 277 ms 1283 ms > |sm/rem 196 ms 196 ms 1215 ms > |um/mod 235 ms 235 ms 693 ms > |m*/ 2018 ms 1764 ms 2373 ms I see no compelling argument here or elsewhere for all division to be floored. Which isn't to say floored division has no uses. All that '83 had to do was provide FM/MOD for those relatively few applications which required it. Job done. Andso it is today. It is the floored-division hold-outs who wish to continue Forth's 30-year argument.
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| From | "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-04 16:35 -1000 |
| Message-ID | <bKednYnGQ4GVWFXPnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #27676 |
On 1/4/14 4:14 PM, Ed wrote: > Anton Ertl wrote: ... >> Gforth changed division from platform-specific (but >> probably symmetric everywhere) to floored (symmetric could be chosen >> as a build option), and nobody complained. The performanc impact was >> small even for pure division microbenchmarks: >> >> From <2007Jan26.165751@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> >> >> | development 0.6.2 >> | floored symmetric symmetric >> |/ 194 ms 181 ms 175 ms >> |mod 197 ms 181 ms 175 ms >> |/mod 193 ms 183 ms 175 ms >> |*/ 252 ms 250 ms 908 ms >> |*/mod 258 ms 259 ms 885 ms >> |fm/mod 278 ms 277 ms 1283 ms >> |sm/rem 196 ms 196 ms 1215 ms >> |um/mod 235 ms 235 ms 693 ms >> |m*/ 2018 ms 1764 ms 2373 ms > > I see no compelling argument here or elsewhere for all division to be > floored. Which isn't to say floored division has no uses. > > All that '83 had to do was provide FM/MOD for those relatively few > applications which required it. Job done. Andso it is today. It is the > floored-division hold-outs who wish to continue Forth's 30-year argument. The argument has to do with graphics. If you wish to draw a straight line through zero, you have to use floored division to avoid a shoulder. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================
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| From | stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-05 11:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <52c9431d.1036475884@news.demon.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #27679 |
On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 16:35:50 -1000, "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> wrote: >The argument has to do with graphics. If you wish to draw a straight >line through zero, you have to use floored division to avoid a shoulder. Or bias the coordinate system, which is often faster on current hardware. The rationale for floored arithmetic is very thin now, and was thin at the time. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-05 06:15 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <6ZGdnef-1Pt70VTPnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #27683 |
Stephen Pelc <stephenXXX@mpeforth.com> wrote: > On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 16:35:50 -1000, "Elizabeth D. Rather" > <erather@forth.com> wrote: > >>The argument has to do with graphics. If you wish to draw a straight >>line through zero, you have to use floored division to avoid a >>shoulder. > > Or bias the coordinate system, which is often faster on current > hardware. Floored arithmetic does exactly that, but does it everywhere consistently, so the programmer doesn't have to work with that biased system. This saves programmer cycles for a very small cost of machine cycles in the cases where it really is slightly slower. > The rationale for floored arithmetic is very thin now, and was thin > at the time. Mathematically speaking, the rationale hasn't changed at all. I don't think you can argue with the rationale for making floored division available in Forth systems. And if there is a choice, with no cost implications, then floored is the best default because it misbehaves less. I always have preferred floored division because MOD has to be compatible with / , and the MOD that results from symmetric division is rather less useful than a chocolate teapot. I would have thought that argument was sufficient. Why do you think anything else has changed? I suppose more processors have signed DIV instructions, but even where they exist the difference with floored division isn't that great, is it? Andrew.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-05 15:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <labp5u$1el$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #27684 |
Andrew Haley wrote: > Why do you think anything else has changed? I suppose more processors > have signed DIV instructions, but even where they exist the difference > with floored division isn't that great, is it? The speed relation is unsigned < floor(d/u) < symmetric < floored but the differences are rather small. If speed was the argument, floor(d/u) would be the winner: It has no bumps, is mathematically sound, and nobody divides by negative numbers - the case that you divide by a fractional number which represents [0..1[ is more likely, and then you need the full range of u. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-05 10:07 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <78udnYX5-5y7HlTPnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #27687 |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > Andrew Haley wrote: >> Why do you think anything else has changed? I suppose more processors >> have signed DIV instructions, but even where they exist the difference >> with floored division isn't that great, is it? > > The speed relation is > > unsigned < floor(d/u) < symmetric < floored > > but the differences are rather small. On x86 I imagine you're right, but not always: it is possible to do symmetric division (in hardware) at the same speed as unsigned. SRT division can be implemented this way. Andrew.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-05 21:14 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <laceej$igj$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #27688 |
Andrew Haley wrote:
> On x86 I imagine you're right, but not always: it is possible to do
> symmetric division (in hardware) at the same speed as unsigned. SRT
> division can be implemented this way.
It might be possible, but who does it? Intel has some tradition with SRT
(famous FDIV bug), so they could. You could use the same circuit for the
non-restoring version of SRT to do both signed and unsigned division by
spending an extra bit - then both signed and unsigned numbers can be
expanded to fit into the same representation.
However, SRT is itself agnostic to floored or symmetric division, because it
can produce negative or positive remainders, independent of the actual
inputs, so the last step in SRT is to adjust the remainder to the chosen
rounding method. That's because SRT will always produce an odd quotient (a
result of the representation), and the remainder is in the range [-d..d[.
If you want to try, here's it:
\ non-restoring division
: nr/mod ( d n -- nq nr ) 0
8 cells 0 DO
>r >r
dup 0< IF
d2* r@ + r> r> 2*
ELSE
d2* r@ - r> r> 2* 1+
THEN
LOOP >r drop nip r> 2* 1+ swap ;
srt uses essentially the same algorithm, but it is less precise, so the
final correction is a bit larger - you might end up with two correction
steps instead of just one.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-06 04:44 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <itadnQtYkMJtFVfPnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #27692 |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > Andrew Haley wrote: >> On x86 I imagine you're right, but not always: it is possible to do >> symmetric division (in hardware) at the same speed as unsigned. SRT >> division can be implemented this way. > > It might be possible, but who does it? Hard for anyone to say, especially in public, because silicon companies are so jealous about revealing anything, but I have seen some timings where symmetric signed division had the same speed as unsigned, at 4 bits/cycle. The rest is my guess! :-) > However, SRT is itself agnostic to floored or symmetric division, Sure, but that doesn't really matter unless you're making your own silicon. Andrew.
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| From | "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-06 12:42 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <lad28i$kil$2@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #27679 |
Elizabeth D. Rather wrote: > On 1/4/14 4:14 PM, Ed wrote: > > ... > > All that '83 had to do was provide FM/MOD for those relatively few > > applications which required it. Job done. Andso it is today. It is the > > floored-division hold-outs who wish to continue Forth's 30-year argument. > > The argument has to do with graphics. If you wish to draw a straight > line through zero, you have to use floored division to avoid a shoulder. That's what FM/MOD is for. The rest of the time conventional division works fine because most division operations involve positive arguments. Only Forth made it into an issue - by ascribing to one name, two different functions.
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-06 21:51 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <laf4vu$u3o$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #27695 |
Ed wrote: > That's what FM/MOD is for. The rest of the time conventional division > works fine because most division operations involve positive arguments. We have um/mod for positive arguments. Following your argument, / should really be ( u1 u2 -- u3 ), because nobody needs / for negative numbers. I redefined VFX's divison operators to the floored ones when porting MINOS, because that way I got pixel-identical results. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-06 22:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <52cb30e2.1162880639@news.demon.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #27702 |
On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 21:51:10 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: >I redefined VFX's divison operators to the floored ones when porting MINOS, >because that way I got pixel-identical results. Did you hide them from other people? No, you just don't care about other people's code. It's the ego problem again. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-07 03:29 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lafoqg$uq7$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #27703 |
Stephen Pelc wrote: > On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 21:51:10 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> > wrote: > >>I redefined VFX's divison operators to the floored ones when porting >>MINOS, because that way I got pixel-identical results. > > Did you hide them from other people? No, you just don't care about > other people's code. It's the ego problem again. Yes, I do hide them from other people by using different names for those divisions; we discussed that. I started by putting the redefinitions into the harness, because replacing every / and */ and friends in MINOS was quite some work. I wanted to have results quickly, and this was also something that needed discussion. Generally speaking, MINOS programs are graphics programs, so they want to have a floored division, too. That was the idea of redefining the division words completely: with a GUI, you enter the world where division rounding starts to matter, and therefore, you need to tighten your spec. All this lose spec where you don't know how non-corner-cases behave aren't any good. Following the argument that floored division is only needed for those programs which do care, changing divisions to floored will not cause any malfunction in those programs that don't care. That's our experience with the change from Gforth 0.6.2->0.7.0, where we went to floored division: zero complaints. On the other hand, changing rounding mode from floored to symmetric causes known malfunction to the code-base I have, so that's a bad idea. So to speak: Your choice of symmetric division shows that you don't care about other people's code. It's the ego problem again. Writing standard systems is just as much about ego as writing standard programs. I know that MINOS is demanding. You fixed the broken inliner. You added C bindings with floating point parameters on the floating point stack. You added floating point locals. If I ported MINOS to SwiftForth, the same problems will show up again - most of them (SwiftForth has no fancy inliner). And the same problems (with the exception of the inliner), *also* did show up when I wrote the OpenGL MINOS widget for bigForth. This OpenGL stuff is just an external constraint, as it uses float everywhere. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-07 11:48 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <52cbdb63$0$20518$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl> |
| In reply to | #27708 |
On 07/01/2014 03:29, Bernd Paysan wrote: > This OpenGL stuff is > just an external constraint, as it uses float everywhere. > I'm afraid it's not only OpenGL. When you're using an Apple you'll see floats for everything and all as well. The GUI, Quartz, audio, you name it (stack should be FP as default on a Mac ;) And then there are 32bit and 64bit floats, which leads to somewhat different OS interfaces for SF, VFX and i4. Quite a bit of mucking around integers and floats. Yes, I consider them Fremdkorper as well. Treat them as a matter-of-fact. Anyway, an Apple interface running on (top of) the three mentioned Forth systems is doable. I let the Apple engineers draw my windows and menus, their bugs their responsibility. No additional work for Forth vendors needed. Keeping away from internals, not attempting to write standard programs, enjoying differences, keeping all ego's in tact :-) Cheers, -r
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| From | stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-07 12:58 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <52cbe75a.1209592377@news.demon.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #27708 |
On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 03:29:35 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: >So to speak: Your choice of symmetric division shows that you don't care >about other people's code. It's the ego problem again. No. It shows that the people I consulted disagreed with your position, probably because they work in different application domains. Overall, clients were happy to get the speed of symmetric division on CPUs with divide instructions, albeit at the expense of having to be explicit in graphics and motion applications. Different application domains demand both symmetric and floored division. Where it matters, it is no bad thing to have to be explicit. The ANS TC probably made the right decision. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
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| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-07 15:13 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <lah21l$15s$1@online.de> |
| In reply to | #27713 |
Stephen Pelc wrote: > On Tue, 07 Jan 2014 03:29:35 +0100, Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> > wrote: > >>So to speak: Your choice of symmetric division shows that you don't care >>about other people's code. It's the ego problem again. > > No. It shows that the people I consulted disagreed with your position, > probably because they work in different application domains. Overall, > clients were happy to get the speed of symmetric division on CPUs > with divide instructions, albeit at the expense of having to be > explicit in graphics and motion applications. The typical case (all values positive) has only a small difference. It depends on the CPU you use (of course), but using a microbenchmark, the difference between fm/mod and sm/rem in VFX is 15% (loop overhead included). The tradeoffs and which instruction to use are processor-dependent; so while last time I measured, the processor was fastet for um/mod, on the Core i7 it is slowest on um/mod (fm/mod is faster). > Different application domains demand both symmetric and floored > division. Where it matters, it is no bad thing to have to be > explicit. The ANS TC probably made the right decision. I still haven't seen any application that really "demands" symmetric division in the sense of that it would not have correct answers otherwise (financial rounding is round to nearest even, with rules like "if the last digit is 5, round to nearest even, otherwise round to nearest" - this usually requires multiplying the nominator by 10, doing a floored division, dividing the result by 10 floored, and then checking for 5 and looking for the next even - certainly symmetric division would completely break this). I can understand that there are many programs where it doesn't matter, but those are rarely the kind of program with many divisions. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-07 10:22 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <7xr48jvei7.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #27713 |
stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes: > Different application domains demand both symmetric and floored > division. What's an example of an application that demands the arithmetic properties of symmetric division? Some applications choose it because of the artifact that it's a little bit faster on some processors (I've long wondered why that is) and they can accept the mathematical weirdness. Mathematically as far as I can tell, applications either require floored division or else they don't care. It's not just graphics: anything involving modular arithmetic just about certainly needs floored division.
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| From | "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-08 02:20 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <lah622$s2s$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #27702 |
Bernd Paysan wrote: > Ed wrote: > > That's what FM/MOD is for. The rest of the time conventional division > > works fine because most division operations involve positive arguments. > > We have um/mod for positive arguments. Following your argument, / should > really be ( u1 u2 -- u3 ), because nobody needs / for negative numbers. Nice try. How many languages do you know don't support signed division. Which function do you imagine languages will use to synthesize floored or Euclidean division.
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-07 14:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2014Jan7.151358@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #27676 |
"Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> writes:
>Anton Ertl wrote:
>> "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> writes:
>> >Forth is empirically based. It matters whether a majority of cases favour a
>> >particular solution. It was this that drove the decision to make PICK and
>> >ROLL zero-based - even at the expense of breaking code.
>>
>> Please enlighten me about the empirical basis of "zero-based" PICK and
>> ROLL.
>
>When the index is computed, zero-based is optimum.
What index? What do you compare with what? Which metric are you
using? What were your results?
>> >Short-term
>> >pain for long-term gain.
>>
>> Long-term pain for no gain.
>
>Clearly not. PICK and ROLL have been zero-based since '83 and '94.
>Where are the long-term complaints?
There is still no smooth transition from Forth-79.
>> >Floored integer division favoured the majority of
>> >cases but completely ignored the reality of hardware division which was
>> >symmetric. The result - long-term pain.
>>
>> What pain?
>
>How many times do you need to be reminded?
>
>Several vendors refused to adopt '83 division, opting for conventional division.
But the problem here was not the "reality of hardware division", but
the redefinition of words standardized by Forth-79 with a different
meaning.
>'94 chose a political compromise which even mathematicians saw as crazy.
Sure, mathematicians tend to like floored division, so some saw the
loosening of the spec done in Forth-94 as crazy.
It is instructive to compare what happened with flags to what happened
with division: In both cases Forth-83 changed the spec incompatibly,
and Forth-94 tried to fix the consequences.
For flags the Forth-83 representation was kept, but NOT (the word that
was affected by this change on the input side) was split into two
words: 0= (79's NOT) and INVERT (83's NOT).
For division Forth-94 loosened the specification of many words
(starting with / and MOD) and provided two additional, tight ones:
FM/MOD and SM/REM.
Now consider the alternative courses that Forth-94 could have taken in
these areas:
For flags it could have loosened the spec to allow systems to
implement either 1 or -1 as canonical flag representation, with NOT
working on the system's representation. Or make canonical flags into
an opaque cell-wide data type that the system could implement as it
sees fit, with AND OR XOR working bitwise, and ?AND ?OR ?XOR ?NOT
working on flags.
I think these courses would be worse than the one chosen for Forth-94;
Many Forth programmers would have use the carnal knowledge about the
flag representation anyway, leading to portability bugs (and these
would probably have been hard to find and fix).
For division Forth-94 could have taken an approach similar to what
they did with NOT: destandardize all the existing division words / */
etc. and standardize symmetric and floored variants (say, /S /F */S
*/F etc.); and maybe have a don't-care variant (/X */X etc.). This
would allow us now to see in how many cases people really want
symmetric division, floored division, or where they do not care. That
might have given us a basis for a rational decision on what to
standardize, or we might still be in the situation where we don't find
consensus.
Currently the words with the old names (/ */ etc.) are the don't-care
words, and we have FM/MOD SM/REM as primitives for constructing the
floored and symmetric variants of these words.
I think the choices made in Forth-94 in the division area is also
good: The don't-care case is probably the most frequent (cases were
both operands are only ever positive), and we have a way to get at the
Forth-79 and Forth-83 behaviour if we ever really care about it.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2013: http://www.euroforth.org/ef13/
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| From | "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-09 23:19 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <lam75r$dlg$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #27721 |
Anton Ertl wrote: > "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> writes: > >Anton Ertl wrote: > > ... > >> Please enlighten me about the empirical basis of "zero-based" PICK and > >> ROLL. > > > >When the index is computed, zero-based is optimum. > > What index? What do you compare with what? Which metric are you > using? Observation and experience. >What were your results? Zero-based was better. How could it be otherwise. > >> Long-term pain for no gain. > > > >Clearly not. PICK and ROLL have been zero-based since '83 and '94. > >Where are the long-term complaints? > > There is still no smooth transition from Forth-79. 'No long-term complaints' sounds smooth to me. > For division Forth-94 could have taken an approach similar to what > they did with NOT: destandardize all the existing division words / */ > etc. and standardize symmetric and floored variants (say, /S /F */S > */F etc.); and maybe have a don't-care variant (/X */X etc.). This > would allow us now to see in how many cases people really want > symmetric division, floored division, or where they do not care. That > might have given us a basis for a rational decision on what to > standardize, or we might still be in the situation where we don't find > consensus. > > Currently the words with the old names (/ */ etc.) are the don't-care > words, and we have FM/MOD SM/REM as primitives for constructing the > floored and symmetric variants of these words. > > I think the choices made in Forth-94 in the division area is also > good: The don't-care case is probably the most frequent (cases were > both operands are only ever positive), and we have a way to get at the > Forth-79 and Forth-83 behaviour if we ever really care about it. Time has done what '94 couldn't and today virtually all Forth systems use symmetric division. Case closed.
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