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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #55968 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-03-20 09:58 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-03-24 17:52 -0700 |
| Articles | 12 on this page of 212 — 28 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.forth
Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 09:58 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-20 10:34 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 10:51 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-20 18:08 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 12:19 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 05:51 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 15:04 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-21 11:22 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 14:47 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 01:34 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-25 17:27 +1100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-25 00:06 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-25 01:02 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-25 01:05 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-27 12:11 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-27 15:53 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-26 22:12 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-29 10:30 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-25 09:34 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! mhx@iae.nl - 2017-03-25 03:46 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-27 10:56 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-28 10:07 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! mhx@iae.nl - 2017-03-27 16:46 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-27 18:51 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-27 17:21 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-28 10:57 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! minforth@arcor.de - 2017-03-28 01:16 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-28 03:36 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! minforth@arcor.de - 2017-03-28 01:54 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-28 12:57 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-28 03:51 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-29 10:29 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 03:33 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 05:17 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 09:42 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 09:49 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 12:12 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:28 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-21 16:43 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-21 14:11 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-21 16:46 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 12:32 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 10:57 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 14:10 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 12:50 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 15:29 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 14:01 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-22 03:23 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-04-07 09:26 +0200
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-04-07 10:10 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-21 16:42 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-22 13:10 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 06:38 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-22 15:24 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-22 08:52 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-25 13:55 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-25 17:41 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 07:43 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 08:06 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 10:01 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 10:19 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 10:59 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-22 18:31 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 13:55 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 05:50 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-23 08:05 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-23 13:47 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-03-23 15:31 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-23 10:25 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-24 18:07 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-03 10:45 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 03:50 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 05:57 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-03 12:08 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 12:26 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-03 16:02 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 16:08 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-03 16:35 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 18:28 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-04 10:14 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 12:44 +0200
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-04 12:32 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 06:49 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! crc <charles.childers@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 04:50 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 13:14 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-05 11:19 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-05 04:16 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-05 12:35 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-03 13:55 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-03 17:04 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 07:29 +0300
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 02:52 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-05-04 05:08 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 06:34 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-04 11:17 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2017-05-03 19:03 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-24 18:12 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-25 13:49 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-23 00:58 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-23 00:57 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-22 20:55 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-23 18:05 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 15:57 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-25 10:29 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 04:00 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 08:01 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-04 16:06 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-22 14:02 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-23 00:57 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-22 20:59 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-23 12:14 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-23 14:45 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-23 12:24 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-28 10:55 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-27 17:24 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-29 10:49 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-28 15:05 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-28 19:06 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-03-29 06:43 +0300
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-30 10:37 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-29 19:34 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-03-23 10:36 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-23 11:33 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-23 14:58 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-24 17:57 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-24 22:32 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 17:10 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-03-25 07:31 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-04-07 08:50 +0200
Re: Make Forth Small Again! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-20 17:57 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-03 10:09 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 10:28 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 07:57 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-03 13:07 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! john <anon@example.com> - 2017-05-03 16:03 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-20 14:08 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 17:51 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! minforth@arcor.de - 2017-03-20 13:12 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! bruehlconsult@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 17:22 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-20 19:12 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 02:30 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! minforth@arcor.de - 2017-03-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-21 05:56 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-03-21 16:07 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-03-21 14:28 -1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-03-28 11:30 +1000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-21 16:42 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-21 22:56 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2017-03-22 04:04 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-03-23 00:57 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 02:32 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-24 10:00 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-24 06:46 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-24 14:41 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 15:32 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-25 23:10 +0000
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-25 17:29 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-03-25 18:08 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-26 08:30 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-26 08:50 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-26 15:14 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-27 08:32 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 13:21 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-27 15:31 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-27 09:04 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-27 11:52 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-27 18:41 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-03-27 12:58 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-27 12:07 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-03-27 13:06 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-28 11:30 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-28 20:06 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-03-29 14:54 +0200
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 19:13 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-27 21:18 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-28 10:54 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-03-27 21:53 +0300
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-27 22:29 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 14:07 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 16:03 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-31 09:28 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 03:36 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-31 19:29 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 04:37 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-04-01 09:23 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 10:37 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-04-01 11:55 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-01 14:15 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-05-06 12:55 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-07 12:08 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-05-07 09:04 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Coos Haak <htrofhc@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 21:35 +0200
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-04-01 20:35 -0400
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 11:52 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-01 16:31 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-04-01 20:54 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-04-01 21:13 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-04-05 16:06 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-03-31 09:42 +0100
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 03:52 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 20:26 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-27 04:55 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-27 08:49 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 13:35 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 14:23 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-30 15:28 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-30 23:20 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 02:29 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-03-31 03:20 -0700
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-31 03:38 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-03-24 09:17 -0500
Re: Make Forth Small Again! hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-03-24 17:52 -0700
Page 11 of 11 — ← Prev page 1 … 9 10 [11]
| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-30 20:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c53154ad-8f70-45be-844f-3e580d481fb5@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56386 |
On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 7:31:58 AM UTC-7, Alex wrote: > Whichever way that turns out, the example serves to demonstrate that > there's room for plenty more Forth standards -- like ANS, Forth 201x, > Hughs' Straight Forth and perhaps even one of your efforts. > > However, I place Hugh's Straight Forth in the doomed category. It has > little support or promotion beyond Hugh's posts here, no product (that's > generally a fatal mistake) and it appears to be significantly incomplete > and in places ill thought through. It also requires Hugh to do all the > work. Mostly, Traditional Forth or Straight Forth or whatever are an opportunity for me to be a Forth programmer. I would be okay with one of Ilya Tarasov's efforts too --- I don't agree with his ideas completely, but he seems to be reasonably intelligent and unlikely to do anything utterly stupid --- I can learn to live with any reasonable Forth standard that anybody comes up (part of being a Forth programmer, or any kind of programmer, is learning to adapt to other people's language design). I can't be an ANS-Forth programmer though --- ANS-Forth is a cult, and being an ANS-Forth programmer depends entirely upon Elizabeth Rather's approval --- every time that I write ANS-Forth code, all of Elizabeth Rather's sycophants attack it, calling it "peak stupid" etc., which gets annoying after the first eight years (I'll continue doing it though, because this shines a spotlight on the fact that ANS-Forth is a cult, which helps to kill ANS-Forth). What the Forth community needs is a Forth standard that allows them to write portable Forth programs --- a language in which writing programs is necessary to be a programmer and fakers are not accepted --- cults such as ANS-Forth are a dead-end.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-27 04:55 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <o7edne_ABeECfEXFnZ2dnUU7-YXNnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #56304 |
Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> wrote: > On 3/25/2017 22:32, Ilya Tarasov wrote: >>> That's OK; & no-one is trying to stop them doing what they want, >>> and that includes participating or not participating in the >>> standard as they see fit. The market (consumers like you of >>> Forth-as-a-language) decide whether it is useful or not, and what >>> contributions they want to make. MPE, Forth Inc and a number of >>> other Forth system providers think it is useful to continue to >>> develop the standard, and I'm with them on that. >> >> This is a long-term position here. You are assuming Forth Inc is the >> only source of 'right' Forth and the only possibility to advance >> Forth is contributing and write proposals to ANS committee. > > What? Where did I say that? Nowhere. There is no way that any reasonable person could take what you wrote and interpret it as "You are assuming Forth Inc is the only source of 'right' Forth." Here's what seems to be happening: a message goes to Ilya and it passes through something which behaves like a broken verison of Google Translate. Ilya reads the scrambled message and replies to what he thinks it means. This is invariably something completely insane or an attack on Ilya. Because of this, he spends much of his time here arguing against positions that are held by literally no-one. The odd thing is that even when people explain what they meant, Ilya doesn't believe them. Andrew.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-27 08:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4b471806-e6ea-49c5-8edd-ecc2b1eb9533@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56377 |
On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 2:55:48 AM UTC-7, Andrew Haley wrote:
> Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> wrote:
> > On 3/25/2017 22:32, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> >> This is a long-term position here. You are assuming Forth Inc is the
> >> only source of 'right' Forth and the only possibility to advance
> >> Forth is contributing and write proposals to ANS committee.
> >
> > What? Where did I say that?
>
> Nowhere. There is no way that any reasonable person could take what
> you wrote and interpret it as "You are assuming Forth Inc is the only
> source of 'right' Forth."
All of the Forth-200x committee members were appointed by Elizabeth Rather. All of them just just do what Leon Wagner tells them to do, and believe what Leon Wagner tells them to believe.
You yourself worked for Forth Inc. and taught the novice class there when Elizabeth Rather wasn't able to do so (note that only a salesman would teach that class; no programmer would ever do that). You were appointed to the committee by Elizabeth Rather because you are totally obedient to her.
Stephen Pelc and his employee Peter Knaggs were both appointed to the committee by Elizabeth Rather because Forth Inc. and MPE do joint projects together and hence they are obliged to be obedient to Leon Wagner.
A good example of how all of the Forth-200x committee members are totally obedient to Leon Wagner is that { is normally used for defining local variables, and this has been true since prior to ANS-Forth. SwiftForth uses { for multi-line comments however, so Leon Wagner vetoed the use of { for local variables --- this causes the entire Forth community to rewrite all of their code that uses { for locals if they want to be Forth-200x compliant.
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-30 13:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <25ae3860-20b1-4292-b03c-974c82f18a22@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56377 |
понедельник, 27 марта 2017 г., 12:55:48 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал: > Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> wrote: > > On 3/25/2017 22:32, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > >>> That's OK; & no-one is trying to stop them doing what they want, > >>> and that includes participating or not participating in the > >>> standard as they see fit. The market (consumers like you of > >>> Forth-as-a-language) decide whether it is useful or not, and what > >>> contributions they want to make. MPE, Forth Inc and a number of > >>> other Forth system providers think it is useful to continue to > >>> develop the standard, and I'm with them on that. > >> > >> This is a long-term position here. You are assuming Forth Inc is the > >> only source of 'right' Forth and the only possibility to advance > >> Forth is contributing and write proposals to ANS committee. > > > > What? Where did I say that? > > Nowhere. There is no way that any reasonable person could take what > you wrote and interpret it as "You are assuming Forth Inc is the only > source of 'right' Forth." > > Here's what seems to be happening: a message goes to Ilya and it > passes through something which behaves like a broken verison of Google > Translate. Ilya reads the scrambled message and replies to what he > thinks it means. This is invariably something completely insane or an > attack on Ilya. Because of this, he spends much of his time here > arguing against positions that are held by literally no-one. > > The odd thing is that even when people explain what they meant, Ilya > doesn't believe them. > > Andrew. You made my day!!! :) This is an absolute brilliant explanation! I can suggest another: my bear steal my vodka and my personal nuclear reactor goes too hot, so I can't read letters properly and translate black as white and vice versa. If you want to stay with your illusions where you are a Forth expert and nobody can understand your arguments, let it be. I wonder how long you will be able to keep this illusion without serious impact on mental health.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-30 14:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8ff7e2ee-c98c-4f78-a8e5-162d2acc471b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56492 |
On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 1:35:22 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > понедельник, 27 марта 2017 г., 12:55:48 UTC+3 пользователь Andrew Haley написал: > > Here's what seems to be happening: a message goes to Ilya and it > > passes through something which behaves like a broken verison of Google > > Translate. Ilya reads the scrambled message and replies to what he > > thinks it means. This is invariably something completely insane or an > > attack on Ilya. Because of this, he spends much of his time here > > arguing against positions that are held by literally no-one. > > > > The odd thing is that even when people explain what they meant, Ilya > > doesn't believe them. > > > > Andrew. > > You made my day!!! :) This is an absolute brilliant explanation! I can suggest another: my bear steal my vodka and my personal nuclear reactor goes too hot, so I can't read letters properly and translate black as white and vice versa. > > If you want to stay with your illusions where you are a Forth expert and nobody can understand your arguments, let it be. I wonder how long you will be able to keep this illusion without serious impact on mental health. Andrew Haley's illusions qualified him to be appointed to the Forth-200x committee. His Forth experience involved teaching the novice class at Forth Inc. when Elizabeth Rather wasn't able to do so herself. He is very loyal to Forth Inc.! If Elizabeth Rather tells him that local variables are bad, he will believe that. If Elizabeth Rather tells him that the sky is orange, he will believe that too. Getting appointed to the Forth-200x committee is all about replacing reality with illusions --- living in a fantasy world in which Elizabeth Rather is the "leading expert" on Forth. You are not loyal to Forth Inc. at all, and hence you will not be appointed to the Forth-200x committee. I'm sure this news will be a heart-breaker for you! ;-)
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| From | Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-30 15:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <487dbd70-09b0-4d86-a925-b2aacd0e16a8@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56492 |
On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote: > If you want to stay with your illusions where you are a Forth expert and nobody can understand your arguments, let it be. What people can't understand is you, and they've expressed irritation with that -- they aren't attributing it to your expertise. Actually, the mystery is that within this thread there are moments of crystal clarity in your argumentation, right next to completely obscure paragraphs. My guess at the reason for that is this: when you think we won't understand something, you speak clearly, and when (more often) you wrongly think there's considerable shared understanding about a matter, you try to expand on it. And when people don't go along with your points, you still assume the shared understanding and conclude: "aha, you fundamentally agree with me and are just trying to confuse people with dishonest rhetoric because you don't like where the logic leads." For example: > > > The question: is standard a part of solution or a part of problem? > > > > Who knows, since you've not described either the solution or the problem. > I repeat this several times :) I know this USA-specific trick to looks smart in any case. You: *expounding on who-knows-what* Us: what are you talking about? You: ohoh, the famous "what are you talking about?" deflection, nee of Boston, USA! No, seriously, what are you talking about? In technical discussion, questions are just questions. Meanwhile, in America, there are only crazy people and people funded by Ukrainian oligarchs (some overlap there) who badmouth Russia. To the sane, Russia is basically France: an evil country full of eternal enemies who are basically alright. When you whine about all the anti-Russian sentiment you're getting in clf, it's so transparently an expression of your own anti-American bigotry that I'm embarrassed for you.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-30 23:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3d543d43-9f36-4e91-aade-9e9303445604@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56497 |
On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 3:28:07 PM UTC-7, Julian Fondren wrote: > Meanwhile, in America, there are only crazy people and people funded > by Ukrainian oligarchs (some overlap there) who badmouth Russia. To > the sane, Russia is basically France: an evil country full of eternal > enemies who are basically alright. When you whine about all the > anti-Russian sentiment you're getting in clf, it's so transparently an > expression of your own anti-American bigotry that I'm embarrassed for > you. I have not found Ilya Tarasov to have any anti-American bigotry --- none of the Russians on the winglion forum have been anti-American --- I don't think this is a problem. Julien Fondren has some mental-health issues. His posts are often quite bizarre: "To the sane, Russia is basically France: an evil country full of eternal enemies who are basically alright." What??? Julien Fondren is also a remarkably bad Forth programmer. He wants to educate everybody on singly-linked lists, which is a pretty simple subject, but his own code is abysmally bad: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/0-W-72ziaOo On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 8:59:39 PM UTC-7, Julian Fondren wrote: > : each[ ( list -- ) > POSTPONE begin POSTPONE dup POSTPONE while ; immediate > > ( list -- list ) > > : ]each ( list -- ) > POSTPONE @ POSTPONE repeat POSTPONE drop ; immediate My prediction for 2017 is that Stephen Pelc and his employee Peter Knaggs will both resign from the Forth-200x committee. At this time, Elizabeth Rather will need to appoint two new committee members --- Julien Fondren and Alex McDonald are the obvious choices because of their loyalty to Forth Inc. --- they may be purposely trying to red-line the stupidometer in an effort to drive Stephen Pelc away, because they know that they are the obvious choices. What do you say, Stephen Pelc? Is there a limit to how stupid the ANS-Forth cult has to become before you abandon them? I wonder about Bernd Paysan too. Earlier in this thread he promoted the use of disambiguifiers (he didn't use the word "disambiguifier" though). Leon Wagner, Stephen Pelc and Anton Ertl all refuse to acknowledge the existence of the disambiguifiers, because doing so involves admitting that FIND is ambiguous. Bernd Paysan is skating on thin ice! Elizabeth Rather could remove him from the Forth-200x committee and replace him with somebody more loyal. Bernd Paysan may be purposely taunting Elizabeth Rather --- he is willing to be loyal to Forth Inc., but he wants to get a paycheck from Forth Inc. in exchange for his loyalty --- by promoting the disambiguifiers he is letting Elizabeth Rather know that he can be disloyal, and that he is willing to put her in the awkward position of having to kick him off the committee. He hopes that she would rather just pay him, as kicking him off the committee would be an embarrassment for her, and he is likely right about this. What do you say, Bernd Paysan? Did you promote the disambiguifiers because you want to get paid to not promote the disambiguifiers?
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| From | Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-31 02:29 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ffbe3b8b-b637-42a4-ae81-bd478e37b405@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56497 |
> What people can't understand is you, and they've expressed irritation > with that -- they aren't attributing it to your expertise. Actually, > the mystery is that within this thread there are moments of crystal > clarity in your argumentation, right next to completely obscure > paragraphs. My guess at the reason for that is this: when you think we > won't understand something, you speak clearly, and when (more often) > you wrongly think there's considerable shared understanding about a > matter, you try to expand on it. And when people don't go along with > your points, you still assume the shared understanding and conclude: > "aha, you fundamentally agree with me and are just trying to confuse > people with dishonest rhetoric because you don't like where the logic > leads." If you entering serious area, you must to meet serious demands. How do you want to carry out worldwide language, if you think and behave like a standard programmer, following Microsoft/other language communities etc.? Are you pretend to determine where Forth is going to? If yes, you must be able to answer many questions, not just 'how DUP works'. I know the logic and thinking threads related to real problems may be hard to understand. I don't plan to pity those who want to keep an illusion they are rulers of Forth. Real life is much more intresting when you start to get benefits from your Forth skills, instead of enjoying you are not alone and several guys are sharing your opinion about new word syntax. Again, it's your choice > > > > The question: is standard a part of solution or a part of problem? > > > > > > Who knows, since you've not described either the solution or the problem. > > I repeat this several times :) I know this USA-specific trick to looks smart in any case. > > You: *expounding on who-knows-what* > > Us: what are you talking about? > > You: ohoh, the famous "what are you talking about?" deflection, nee of > Boston, USA! > > No, seriously, what are you talking about? > > In technical discussion, questions are just questions. Ok, I can clearly state: the standard is a part of problem, because it defines a lot of details without clearly explanation why it should be implemented this way. A part of solution is a simple guide for creating Forth from the scratch, explaining what we must have and how it may be done in Forth (with alternatives). Looking on a standard, skilled programmers can see many disadvantages and obsolete approaches and start to work with their own, incompatible versions. So they can meet here only critics and calls for participation/contribution/promotion. Since Forth, roughly, appears 1000+ times more per programmer than C#, it is not a problem to say ANS-group goodbye. Now I can suggest a really hard question - how you (all who feels himself a part of ANS-group) plan to solve this? Will you leave them alone, or you will continue to collect remaining crumbs of peoples who comes for Forth, but not skilled enough to write their own? > Meanwhile, in America, there are only crazy people and people funded > by Ukrainian oligarchs (some overlap there) who badmouth Russia. To > the sane, Russia is basically France: an evil country full of eternal > enemies who are basically alright. When you whine about all the > anti-Russian sentiment you're getting in clf, it's so transparently an > expression of your own anti-American bigotry that I'm embarrassed for > you. I can see only one analog of world politics. Here, in c.l.f., 'official' USA is dictating (with not enough power), some peoples from USA are honest enough to leave others at their own, Europe is looking how to not to put official USA into a rage, and Russia is claiming independency and calls for partnership on the base of mutual respect :)))
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| From | Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-31 03:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9cdb281e-7bb5-480f-8c40-8557e7db9776@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56506 |
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 4:29:03 AM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> If you entering serious area, you must to meet serious demands. How do you want to carry out worldwide language, if you think and behave like a standard programmer, following Microsoft/other language communities etc.? Are you pretend to determine where Forth is going to? If yes, you must be able to answer many questions, not just 'how DUP works'. I know the logic and thinking threads related to real problems may be hard to understand. I don't plan to pity those who want to keep an illusion they are rulers of Forth. Real life is much more intresting when you start to get benefits from your Forth skills, instead of enjoying you are not alone and several guys are sharing your opinion about new word syntax. Again, it's your choice
>
I thought, "OK, I'll summarize you back to you", but the very first
paragraph is a fail. What I get out of it is nothing, because you're
speaking to people that don't exist.
Summarization:
(nothing so far)
> Ok, I can clearly state: the standard is a part of problem, because it defines a lot of details without clearly explanation why it should be implemented this way. A part of solution is a simple guide for creating Forth from the scratch, explaining what we must have and how it may be done in Forth (with alternatives). Looking on a standard, skilled programmers can see many disadvantages and obsolete approaches and start to work with their own, incompatible versions. So they can meet here only critics and calls for participation/contribution/promotion. Since Forth, roughly, appears 1000+ times more per programmer than C#, it is not a problem to say ANS-group goodbye. Now I can suggest a really hard question - how you (all who feels himself a part of ANS-group) plan to solve this? Will you leave them alone, or you will continue to collect remaining crumbs of peoples who comes for Forth, but not skilled enough to write their own?
Summarization:
Forth is unpopular and easily implemented, so we can easily produce
our own incompatible Forth-like languages and get attention to them.
Yes, that's been clear for a long time.
Summariation (cont.):
The standard in bad though because it's hard to implement a Forth
with reference only to it.
... what.
Summarization (cont.):
Forth's user base is destined to consist only of people incapable of
writing their own incompatible Forth-like language, in spite of how
easy that is.
You think ANS Forth is a straightjacket, so of course you'd think
this. Without that premise, you have to explain what's so attractive
about incompatibility. There are also opinions like: Forth is so
flexible that you can just add features to it instead of coming up
with a brand new language for them. Widely implemented [: ;]
quotations are more impressive than
2 Aug 2007
here is Forth-except-it-has-quotations and also I changed the names of
a bunch of core words for no reason but FUCK STANDARDS WOOOOOO
Also ROT goes the other way around now.
1 Dec 2007
I changed some of those core words' names again because I have new
opinions today. Please rewrite all of your code to comply. Your code
just rotted away purely due to my whim, so please enjoy this freedom
from oppression :)
4 Apr 2013
OK guys, short story: my I/O words are very badly conceived. Even
though huge libraries depend on them, I'm going to fork the entire
language to fix this. Please spend the next ten years writing your
code as if basic terminal I/O was not an intrinsic feature of the
language so that your code will run on both versions of
Forth-except-it-has-quotations.
> I can see only one analog of world politics. Here, in c.l.f., 'official' USA is dictating (with not enough power), some peoples from USA are honest enough to leave others at their own, Europe is looking how to not to put official USA into a rage, and Russia is claiming independency and calls for partnership on the base of mutual respect :)))
Summarization:
{: :} was an outrage.
Apart from that, are there any outrages?
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-31 03:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <T9adnWo1XrgciEPFnZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #56492 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > ???????????, 27 ????? 2017 ?., 12:55:48 UTC+3 ???????????? Andrew Haley ???????: >> >> Here's what seems to be happening: a message goes to Ilya and it >> passes through something which behaves like a broken verison of Google >> Translate. Ilya reads the scrambled message and replies to what he >> thinks it means. This is invariably something completely insane or an >> attack on Ilya. Because of this, he spends much of his time here >> arguing against positions that are held by literally no-one. >> >> The odd thing is that even when people explain what they meant, Ilya >> doesn't believe them. > > You made my day!!! :) This is an absolute brilliant explanation! I > can suggest another: my bear steal my vodka and my personal nuclear > reactor goes too hot, so I can't read letters properly and translate > black as white and vice versa. > > If you want to stay with your illusions where you are a Forth expert > and nobody can understand your arguments, let it be. I wonder how > long you will be able to keep this illusion without serious impact > on mental health. And indeed you immediately prove my point by replying to something that I didn't say. QED. Andrew.
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| From | Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 09:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <O8ednWt6IJXyt0jFnZ2dnUU7-bGdnZ2d@supernews.com> |
| In reply to | #56219 |
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> wrote: > > Reading all discussion, I see the same ideas as has been posted here > several times. Maybe I don't agree with all proposals, but I'm agree > with whole idea 'make Forth simplier' (smaller, most understandable, > whatever else). I think, the very source of these voices is the fact > Forth is not a pure programming language, but methodology. Couldn't you say the same about, say, LISP or Smalltalk? Every programming language has an associated style and ethos. > As usual, there is no black/white world. An important thing is to > align efforts with objective trends. For large community of > beginners, pretty-looking and standard Forth is useful. For skilled > programmers, less fences makes Forth more attractive. A question to > standard defenders - who are your auditory, you want to cooperate > with? He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Andrew.
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| From | hughaguilar96@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-24 17:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <86faa532-9331-45a3-86a4-add837529b97@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #56219 |
On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 2:32:14 AM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > Forth has to become SMALL again. Something basic. Well, even if this is not convenient to some commercial vendors: Forth lost with its complexity. Instead of DPAN94 there should be something that *only* defines DUP DROP SWAP etc. Inside "core"-word of DPANS is for example 2OVER... Why? Today? 64bit... Or all these 8-bit-memory access? All crap. Nobody needs this. Americans can use it. But to get U-Umlaut is a problem in current "standards".
>
> Reading all discussion, I see the same ideas as has been posted here several times. Maybe I don't agree with all proposals, but I'm agree with whole idea 'make Forth simplier' (smaller, most understandable, whatever else). I think, the very source of these voices is the fact Forth is not a pure programming language, but methodology. It is impossible to cover all possible applications and write a standard for all. This is why many programmers, having a skill to write their own Forth implementation, are asking 'why do we need to study someone's scratches, when we can understand the basic idea and redesign all by own will?'.
>
> As usual, there is no black/white world. An important thing is to align efforts with objective trends. For large community of beginners, pretty-looking and standard Forth is useful. For skilled programmers, less fences makes Forth more attractive. A question to standard defenders - who are your auditory, you want to cooperate with?
My Straight Forth proposal is not intended to be the last word on Forth. It is intended to be a basic Forth standard that anybody can use for writing basic Forth programs. Everybody typically programs Straight Forth at the novice-level using the two built-in data-structures (arrays and chains), rather than write custom data-structures (writing custom data-structures is possible, but is intermediate-level programming).
The skilled Forth programmers that you mentioned don't necessarily want to turn every program into a demonstration of their mighty skill. A lot of the time, they just want to get the program written reasonably quickly and have it run reasonably efficiently. Even if they are advanced Forth programmers, they will still program Straight Forth the same way that the novice Forth programmer would (using the built-in HOFs). They can also program Straight Forth using intermediate-level techniques (writing their own HOFs), but if they do this then their programs can't be maintained by novice-level programmers who don't know how to write HOFs, so this should only be done when novice-level programming is inadequate.
In summary, this is how Straight Forth would be programmed:
1.) Use novice-level techniques whenever possible. This allows novice-level programmers to maintain the program. This should be about 98% of the time.
2.) Use intermediate-level techniques when necessary, but be aware that few will be able to maintain the program (maybe only yourself).
3.) Advanced-level techniques ("redesign all by own will") is not possible in Straight Forth --- it is not possible in any standard --- fortunately, it is rarely needed.
There is no "large community of beginners" at this time, because ANS-Forth turns away every programmer with a three digit I.Q. and only embraces:
1.) imbeciles who don't understand that ambiguity is bad and/or don't understand basic programming concepts such as re-entrancy.
2.) trolls who want to be big programming experts on the internet without writing any programs.
I can't be an ANS-Forth programmer because I don't fit into either category. Almost every Forth programmer abandoned Forth in 1994 when ANS-Forth became the standard --- they just switched to C programming --- I don't want to switch to C though, because I like Forth.
In the old days of Forth-83, there was a large community of beginners. Forth-83 was very easy to understand! For example, FIND worked in an obvious and easily understood manner. Most if not all Forthers were attracted to Forth because it was easy to understand --- Forth is to C what Go is to Chess --- with Forth, there were no complicated syntax rules to figure out, or complicated statements in which every element's meaning depended upon the context in which it was used.
The problem with Forth-83 is that it was too small. Every program needed to have custom data-structures written which is impossible for novice-level programmers (by definition, a novice-level programmer can't do intermediate-level programming) and is a bad idea for intermediate-level programmers (because the novice-level programmers can't maintain the program). Not only was there no novice-level programming, and too much intermediate-level programming, but many Forthers would jump into advanced-level programming (upgrading the compiler using assembly-language and carnal knowledge of the compiler) which would negate the purpose of having a standard at all.
Straight Forth is intended to be a basic Forth standard that is useful about 98% of the time. This is what the Forth community has always lacked. Until there is such a standard, Forth will never succeed. If the two-percenters want to "redesign all by own will" then I don't stop them --- creativity, by definition, doesn't conform to any standard --- sometimes creativity is necessary though, or at least is more fun than conformity.
Straight Forth is intended to save Forth from the idiocy of ANS-Forth --- this doesn't mean that 100% of Forth programs will be written in Straight Forth --- there will always be a small percentage of Forth programs that are non-standard due to either necessity or adventure.
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