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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #15684 > unrolled thread

Olympic Spririt for Forth

Started by"Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
First post2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
Last post2012-10-15 18:00 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 143 — 26 participants

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  Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 15:50 +0200
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-03 14:04 +0000
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 10:29 -0700
                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:07 +0000
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:27 +0200
                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:11 +0000
                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 20:12 +0200
                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 13:08 +0000
                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 17:48 +0200
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-10-03 07:39 -0700
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:24 +0200
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:13 -0700
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 22:20 +0200
                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 12:41 -0700
                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 22:40 +0200
                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 15:26 -1000
                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:54 -0700
                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-05 08:19 +0200
                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 22:18 -1000
                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-05 08:20 +0100
                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 11:08 +0000
                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 08:32 -0700
                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-07 21:39 +0200
                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 21:03 -0700
                                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-08 19:09 +0200
                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-08 21:57 -0700
                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:10 -0700
                                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:12 -0400
                                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:29 +0100
                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:13 -0400
                                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 02:02 -0700
                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 18:24 -0700
                                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-11 17:21 +0000
                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-11 12:33 -0700
                                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 13:42 -0700
                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 18:59 -0400
                                                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 13:49 -1000
                                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-12 03:27 +0200
                                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 19:18 -0700
                                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-12 18:53 -1000
                                                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 22:55 -0700
                                                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-13 22:07 +0200
                                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:56 -0400
                                                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 18:41 -0400
                                                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-13 16:05 -0700
                                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 02:57 +0200
                                                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 00:26 -0700
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 19:28 +0200
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                                                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-14 03:17 -0700
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-14 15:43 -0700
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:18 -0400
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                                                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-15 10:03 +0000
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 04:04 -0700
                                                                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-15 21:34 +0100
                                                                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:51 -0400
                                                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700
                                                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700
                                                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700
                                                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400
                                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400
                                                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700
                                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400
                                                                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700
                                                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400
                                                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700
                                                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100
                                                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100
                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700
                                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700
                                                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500
                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200
                                                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700
                                                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500
                                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700
                                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200
                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 11:31 -1000
                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 16:50 -0700
                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:06 -0700
                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 00:38 -0700
                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 02:06 -0700
                    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 03:38 -0700
                      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 13:40 -0700
                        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 01:00 -0700
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 22:32 -1000
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 04:49 -0700
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 01:35 -0700
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-06 06:17 -0700
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth arc <arc.deletethis@vorsicht-bissig.de> - 2012-10-07 23:45 +1300
                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:34 -0700
                                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 12:16 -0700
                                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:04 -0500
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 11:41 -0700
                            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-05 12:29 -0700
                              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700
                          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700
                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> - 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 08:52 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 11:53 -0700
                  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400

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#15684 — Olympic Spririt for Forth

From"Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Date2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
SubjectOlympic Spririt for Forth
Message-ID<abka93F3k97U1@mid.individual.net>
In attending this years EuroForth conference in Oxford, it seems that the 
community needs to instil the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded 
the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons 
for self expres level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and 
Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level 
upwards.

There are companies that need the right sort of new-blood intake that not 
only has some enthusiasm for the STEM subjects, but also the desire to 
continue learning useful skills and techniques to create the technology that 
will carry their own generation's aspiration to self expression.

What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable 
and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal?

-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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#15705

FromMark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com>
Date2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
Message-ID<cff5560a-b57c-46b5-b206-d4bd2ce724d4@c4g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#15684
On Sep 15, 10:29 pm, "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> In attending this years EuroForth conference in Oxford, it seems that the
> community needs to instil the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded
> the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons
> for self expres level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and
> Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level
> upwards.
>
> There are companies that need the right sort of new-blood intake that not
> only has some enthusiasm for the STEM subjects, but also the desire to
> continue learning useful skills and techniques to create the technology that
> will carry their own generation's aspiration to self expression.
>
> What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable
> and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal?
>
> --
> ********************************************************************
> Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
> Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
> Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
> ********************************************************************

Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer? You know... the ones
that tell you your current speed, average speed, distance travelled,
total distance travelled etc. Should easily be possible with a tiny
little embedded Forth board. Would just need some IO (an analog input
for sensing the sensor on the spokes as the wheel turns) some DO's
(for the LCD display), some DI's (for the UI controls (which mode to
select etc)).

It mixes a little bit of math in there too; different wheel sizes
cover different distances per revolution, and the computer needs to
take account of this. That opens up avenues for interesting discourse
as to how that particular problem may be solved without recourse to
floating point math, for example.

It might get them out on their bicycles, too :-)

Just thought I'd punt an idea, for what it's worth!

Regards

Mark

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#15708

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
Message-ID<2012Sep18.135829@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#15705
Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> writes:
>Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer? You know... the ones
>that tell you your current speed, average speed, distance travelled,
>total distance travelled etc. Should easily be possible with a tiny
>little embedded Forth board. Would just need some IO (an analog input
>for sensing the sensor on the spokes as the wheel turns) some DO's
>(for the LCD display), some DI's (for the UI controls (which mode to
>select etc)).

The input is digital: There's a magnetic switch that is activated by
the passing of the magnet.

The result could not compete with a commercial cycle computer in most
respects: It would consume much more energy, die in bad weather,
probably cost more, be bigger and heavier.  You would have to make up
for these deficiencies in some other way, maybe in ways where the
programmability pays off, like being able to compute unusual metrics,
or having a program for interval training or somesuch.

Apart from commercial cycle computers, there is another form of
competition: Smartphone apps.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

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#15710

FromMark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com>
Date2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
Message-ID<cf472779-f51e-4773-b6dc-987bcd2f1cb7@o19g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#15708
On Sep 18, 1:11 pm, an...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
wrote:
> Mark Wills <forthfr...@gmail.com> writes:
> >Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer? You know... the ones
> >that tell you your current speed, average speed, distance travelled,
> >total distance travelled etc. Should easily be possible with a tiny
> >little embedded Forth board. Would just need some IO (an analog input
> >for sensing the sensor on the spokes as the wheel turns) some DO's
> >(for the LCD display), some DI's (for the UI controls (which mode to
> >select etc)).
>
> The input is digital: There's a magnetic switch that is activated by
> the passing of the magnet.
>
> The result could not compete with a commercial cycle computer in most
> respects: It would consume much more energy, die in bad weather,
> probably cost more, be bigger and heavier.  You would have to make up
> for these deficiencies in some other way, maybe in ways where the
> programmability pays off, like being able to compute unusual metrics,
> or having a program for interval training or somesuch.
>
> Apart from commercial cycle computers, there is another form of
> competition: Smartphone apps.
>
> - anton
> --
> M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
> comp.lang.forth FAQs:http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
>      New standard:http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
>    EuroForth 2012:http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

Sure, something cooked up by a bunch of kids on a development board
could not compete with a commercial unit, but that's not the point.
The OP asked for ideas to try to inspire youngsters. Given that
Forth's niche is generally seen to be in the embedded arena, I thought
I would make a suggestion in that vien in the hope that Forth would
get a look in!

Smartphone apps... Well, world + dog is writing smartphone apps, so
the same limitation would apply: Very unlikely a bunch of beginners,
however inspired, could produce something of commercial quality.
Still, if it *did* inspire them and get them into the STEM stream,
then hats off!


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#15714

Fromanton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Date2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
Message-ID<2012Sep19.145021@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
In reply to#15710
Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> writes:
>Sure, something cooked up by a bunch of kids on a development board
>could not compete with a commercial unit, but that's not the point.

That's ok.  One just has to make sure the expectations of the kids
match with that.  Of course, it's better if there is at least one cool
feature that the self-programmed unit has that the commercial ones
don't.  The accelerometer sounds good.

>Smartphone apps... Well, world + dog is writing smartphone apps, so
>the same limitation would apply: Very unlikely a bunch of beginners,
>however inspired, could produce something of commercial quality.

That's certainly much easier; also, the commercial qualities it misses
will be those (like a granny-compatible UI) that the developers don't
care for.

But yes, it's a very differenty kind of project, and one where Forth
probably does not particularly shine.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2012: http://www.euroforth.org/ef12/

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#15968

Fromtheoriginalsnial@gmail.com
Date2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
Message-ID<f674d2c8-1c37-4f4a-8b87-142eb5fa9239@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#15710
Hi Mark,

Just looking at some other posts!

> > Mark Wills <forthfr...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer [...features
> > > suggested hardware...]

Yes, that'd be fun. It's a much more practical application than any 555 circuit, could be done with Forth and Arduino could do it pretty easily (you could do both, using AmForth). They can learn a lot about electronic design and could add their own features. Who cares if it's not a commercial solution - it'll help them get out of the hyper-consumerist ethos!

Being inspired in these terms, is all about being able to see that your only choice isn't just to buy prepackaged products.

-cheers from julz

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#15970

From"A. K." <akk@nospam.org>
Date2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
Message-ID<506ff774$0$6556$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net>
In reply to#15968
On 06.10.2012 10:40, theoriginalsnial@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Just looking at some other posts!
>
>>> Mark Wills <forthfr...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer [...features
>>>> suggested hardware...]
>
> Yes, that'd be fun. It's a much more practical application than any 555 circuit, could be done with Forth and Arduino could do it pretty easily (you could do both, using AmForth). They can learn a lot about electronic design and could add their own features. Who cares if it's not a commercial solution - it'll help them get out of the hyper-consumerist ethos!
>
> Being inspired in these terms, is all about being able to see that your only choice isn't just to buy prepackaged products.
>
> -cheers from julz
>

C'mon --- why on earth should kids learn Forth ???
They can spend their time way better to find their own place in this 
everchanging world.

The "target market" for Forth are not bicycle riding kids but 
technically oriented young students. For them you can crank up the 
complexity of a Forth demo, for instance a house photovoltaic battery 
charger or somesuch that is more useful than taping an Arduino board to 
a bike handle.

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#15712

FromSpam@ControlQ.com
Date2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
Message-ID<alpine.BSF.2.00.1209181111390.20553@yoko.controlq.com>
In reply to#15705

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Mark Wills wrote:

> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 02:08:31 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
> Subject: Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth
> 
> On Sep 15, 10:29 pm, "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> In attending this years EuroForth conference in Oxford, it seems that the
>> community needs to instil the "Inspire a Generation" spirit that pervaded
>> the London 2012 Olympics event. By this we mean that we need to raise theons
>> for self expres level of enthusiasm for Science, Technology, Engineering and
>> Mathematics within the upcoming generations from primary school level
>> upwards.
>>
>> There are companies that need the right sort of new-blood intake that not
>> only has some enthusiasm for the STEM subjects, but also the desire to
>> continue learning useful skills and techniques to create the technology that
>> will carry their own generation's aspiration to self expression.
>>
>> What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable
>> and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal?
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************************************
>> Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Benn...@topmail.co.uk>
>> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
>> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
>> Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
>> Going Forth Safely ..... EBA.www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
>> ********************************************************************
>
> Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer? You know... the ones
> that tell you your current speed, average speed, distance travelled,
> total distance travelled etc. Should easily be possible with a tiny
> little embedded Forth board. Would just need some IO (an analog input
> for sensing the sensor on the spokes as the wheel turns) some DO's
> (for the LCD display), some DI's (for the UI controls (which mode to
> select etc)).
>
> It mixes a little bit of math in there too; different wheel sizes
> cover different distances per revolution, and the computer needs to
> take account of this. That opens up avenues for interesting discourse
> as to how that particular problem may be solved without recourse to
> floating point math, for example.
>
> It might get them out on their bicycles, too :-)
>
> Just thought I'd punt an idea, for what it's worth!
>
> Regards
>
> Mark

A good idea, but my son rides BMX bicycles, and spends more time in the 
air and inverted ... perhaps a MEMS accelerometer application with Forth 
software to chart the "ups and downs" so to speak.

Cheers,
Rob.

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#15715

FromHugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com>
Date2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
Message-ID<9685087d-35dc-427c-a9f5-f45ccb61f748@n9g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#15705
On Sep 18, 2:08 am, Mark Wills <forthfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, for youngsters, how about a cycle computer? You know... the ones
> that tell you your current speed, average speed, distance travelled,
> total distance travelled etc. Should easily be possible with a tiny
> little embedded Forth board. Would just need some IO (an analog input
> for sensing the sensor on the spokes as the wheel turns) some DO's
> (for the LCD display), some DI's (for the UI controls (which mode to
> select etc)).
>
> It mixes a little bit of math in there too; different wheel sizes
> cover different distances per revolution, and the computer needs to
> take account of this. That opens up avenues for interesting discourse
> as to how that particular problem may be solved without recourse to
> floating point math, for example.
>
> It might get them out on their bicycles, too :-)

That is a pretty good idea. As Anton pointed out, the input is
digital; there is a switch that gets triggered when the magnet goes
past. You want to debounce the switch, otherwise the cyclist will have
spurts of over 1000 mph.. If all the thing is doing is a running
display of the speed, and a calculation of average speed since trip-
start, then a pretty small low-power processor can be used. You don't
really need Forth for this --- you can use a tiny processor (like the
PIC16) and write in assembly language.

What I wanted back when I did a lot of cycling, was for the computer
to keep a log of my speed and my heartrate. Afterward, it could squirt
this over to a desktop computer where a graph could be plotted. If I
do the same course repeatedly, I could compare my performance from one
time to the next. This would require a bigger processor (PIC24 or
MSP430) and would justify Forth. You would need at least 100 miles
worth of data, and 200 miles would be better.

The average speed is mildly useful because you know if you are ahead
of schedule or are falling behind. If there are hills though, then you
need to be able to compare graphs to have any kind of meaningful
comparison from one run to the next.

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#15812

Fromtheoriginalsnial@gmail.com
Date2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
Message-ID<70fba44e-473b-49b2-b04d-ae49a83bfe74@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#15705
Hi folks,

> > What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable
> 
> > and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal?

FIGnition is an obvious choice!

http://www.fignition.co.uk

It's a £20 Forth-based DIY home micro with a built-in keypad for programming; composite video output; 8Kb .. 32Kb of RAM 0.5Mb Flash and has the same performance as an early home micro (i.e. it runs Forth as fast as an 8-bitter runs machine code).

An explicit goal is STEM clubs in schools; I've sold about 580 so far with about 20% going to education. The great educational thing about FIGnition is that you can solder it together from scratch and because the firmware is so tiny (16Kb) it's possible to understand it from end-to-end: hardware, video driver, audio driver, flash driver, keypad driver, virtual machine, compiler.

-cheers from julz

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#15830

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
Message-ID<k49s60$ha0$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#15812
On 9/29/2012 3:56 AM, theoriginalsnial@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
>>> What sort of projects do those members of the list think will be affordable
>>
>>> and inspirational enough to fulfil this goal?
>
> FIGnition is an obvious choice!
>
> http://www.fignition.co.uk
>
> It's a £20 Forth-based DIY home micro with a built-in keypad for programming; composite video output; 8Kb .. 32Kb of RAM 0.5Mb Flash and has the same performance as an early home micro (i.e. it runs Forth as fast as an 8-bitter runs machine code).
>
> An explicit goal is STEM clubs in schools; I've sold about 580 so far with about 20% going to education. The great educational thing about FIGnition is that you can solder it together from scratch and because the firmware is so tiny (16Kb) it's possible to understand it from end-to-end: hardware, video driver, audio driver, flash driver, keypad driver, virtual machine, compiler.
>
> -cheers from julz

What is the processor on this board?  I can't find that.

Rick

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#15834

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
Message-ID<7x391zgx4p.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#15830
rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> writes:
> What is the processor on this board?  I can't find that.

From "What can it do" on its homepage:

    FIGnition now also:

    Has been performance tested: thanks to its new Forth interpreter written
    in AVR assembler it's now 6x to 20x faster than a Jupiter Ace; seriously
    faster than any 80s 8-bit micro when running Forth, in fact it runs
    Forth at near native machine-code speeds.

So it's using an AVR, not clear what model, but looking at AVR
datasheets can probably identify it.

I notice there is now a TI Launchpad with a Cortex M4, for just $5 intro
price:

https://estore.ti.com/Stellaris-LaunchPad.aspx

However, you don't get to build it yourself.

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#15836

Fromrickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Date2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
Message-ID<k4ae4k$llh$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#15834
On 9/30/2012 2:53 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  writes:
>> What is the processor on this board?  I can't find that.
>
>  From "What can it do" on its homepage:
>
>      FIGnition now also:
>
>      Has been performance tested: thanks to its new Forth interpreter written
>      in AVR assembler it's now 6x to 20x faster than a Jupiter Ace; seriously
>      faster than any 80s 8-bit micro when running Forth, in fact it runs
>      Forth at near native machine-code speeds.
>
> So it's using an AVR, not clear what model, but looking at AVR
> datasheets can probably identify it.
>
> I notice there is now a TI Launchpad with a Cortex M4, for just $5 intro
> price:
>
> https://estore.ti.com/Stellaris-LaunchPad.aspx
>
> However, you don't get to build it yourself.

If you can get one.  I ordered the $5 TI Launchpad eval board last week 
and my scheduled delivery is sometime just before Christmas.

Rick

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#15858

Fromtheoriginalsnial@gmail.com
Date2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
Message-ID<38bc373a-aa2f-4251-9247-1fbfbfcf5f6c@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#15834
Hi folks,

> So it's using an AVR, not clear what model, but looking at AVR
> 
> datasheets can probably identify it.

It's documented on the build-it page:

http://www.fignition.co.uk/documentation/build-it-rev-e

It's an AtMega168.

> However, you don't get to build it yourself.

Yep; and in the past year, mere hundreds people in the world have actually built their own computer and over 90% of them will have been FIGnitions :-)

Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> Does anybody hope on the such symple device,
> which can be implemented by hundreds ways?

Well, I was just responding to the initial post. Building your own computer *is* inspiring. It's also a Forth-based computer, which is what you want on this forum eh? Like proper computers it doesn't need an external host to do any programming with it. And it's very similar to an early 80s micro, using similar resources.

But the key thing *is* the simplicity, that's what makes it special; because only simple machines can be mastered and understood from end-to-end. How does it benefit kids if their only true experience of programming requires incomprehensible Giga-byte and GigaHertz, multi-core monstrosities? How would they ever grasp it, if even reading the code in the system would take many lifetimes?

And how is it inspirational if every computer we experience is pre-packaged, surface-mount technology that requires a microscope to modify it? It's in some sense impressive, but what does that say about accessibility?

Ultimately, we have to weigh up why kids aren't inspired to program today. Is it because computers aren't cheap enough (though even a netbook is 3x cheaper than a ZX Spectrum in today's money)? Or could it be something to do with them being 10,000 times more complex? Does FIGnition fit the STEM club criteria? (yes) Can you do a substantial amount of a GCSE computer studies on a FIGnition? (yes) Is FIGnition cute and fun? (you bet ;-) ) !

-cheers from julz

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#15863

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
Message-ID<7xhaqc69sz.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#15858
theoriginalsnial@gmail.com writes:
> It's documented on the build-it page:
> http://www.fignition.co.uk/documentation/build-it-rev-e
> It's an AtMega168.

I didn't see anything on that page identifying the part, and the
AtMega168 according to its data sheet has 16k of flash and 1k of ram.
Are you using external flash and ram, or do you mean another part
number?

> But the key thing *is* the simplicity, that's what makes it special;
>because only simple machines can be mastered and understood from
>end-to-end. How does it benefit kids if their only true experience of
>programming requires incomprehensible Giga-byte and GigaHertz,
>multi-core monstrosities? How would they ever grasp it, if even reading
>the code in the system would take many lifetimes?

Low-level programming certainly has its appeal, though it's also
possible to get started at the other end.  The computer game "Code Hero"
teaches kids how to program 3D graphics games in Javascript (using those
gigabytes and gigahertz) and is doing pretty well.  I don't think it
would be feasible to implement anything like Code Hero with Forth.
Forth has its own applicable areas that are somewhat different.

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#15864

FromBernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Date2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
Message-ID<22489610.pnmz7RBueg@sunwukong.fritz.box>
In reply to#15863
Paul Rubin wrote:
> I don't think it
> would be feasible to implement anything like Code Hero with Forth.
> Forth has its own applicable areas that are somewhat different.

What part of Code Hero would be impossible?  Rember: Two of the major 
JavaScript engines are partly written in Forth.  So the JavaScript part 
is totally within reach of Forth.

A lot of people use Forth on embedded systems.  These systems have 
limited resources and also not many useful libraries.  This doesn't mean 
Forth is limited to embedded systems.  You probably wouldn't expect 
Forth to be part of Firefox, but it is.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#15865

FromSpam@ControlQ.com
Date2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
Message-ID<alpine.BSF.2.00.1210021557090.8868@yoko.controlq.com>
In reply to#15864
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Bernd Paysan wrote:

> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 20:20:42 +0200
> From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
> Subject: Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth
> 
> Paul Rubin wrote:
>> I don't think it
>> would be feasible to implement anything like Code Hero with Forth.
>> Forth has its own applicable areas that are somewhat different.
>
> What part of Code Hero would be impossible?  Rember: Two of the major
> JavaScript engines are partly written in Forth.  So the JavaScript part
> is totally within reach of Forth.

Bernd,

Can you provide a link/citation or such which points to the JavaScript 
engines which embed Forth?  Gekko??


> A lot of people use Forth on embedded systems.  These systems have
> limited resources and also not many useful libraries.  This doesn't mean
> Forth is limited to embedded systems.  You probably wouldn't expect
> Forth to be part of Firefox, but it is.
>
>

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#15866

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
Message-ID<7x391wsjjp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#15864
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>> I don't think it
>> would be feasible to implement anything like Code Hero with Forth.
>> Forth has its own applicable areas that are somewhat different.
>
> What part of Code Hero would be impossible?  

The teaching part, if the idea is for kids to implement animated games
with 3d graphics.  They can't reasonably be expected to do that by
writing low level Forth code.  The underlying JS engine (written by
experienced programmers) could of course in principle be done in Forth.
Then you'd have to re-implement Unity3D and so on.

Note that the existing JS that I know of that uses Forth (Tamarin
Trace), I think uses Forth only as an intermediate form in a certain
stage of compilation, with the main engine written in C++.

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#15872

FromBernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Date2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
Message-ID<8997734.FPiUxMsVlB@sunwukong.fritz.box>
In reply to#15866
Paul Rubin wrote:

> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>>> I don't think it
>>> would be feasible to implement anything like Code Hero with Forth.
>>> Forth has its own applicable areas that are somewhat different.
>>
>> What part of Code Hero would be impossible?
> 
> The teaching part, if the idea is for kids to implement animated games
> with 3d graphics.  They can't reasonably be expected to do that by
> writing low level Forth code.

What about writing high level 3d-turtle graphics code?  Forth is not 
about writing "dup swap + over !", it is about creating domain specific 
programming languages.  I found OpenGL to be "way too low-level" for me, 
and therefore, I added a 3D turtle graphics in MINOS.  It's an awful lot 
easier to use than OpenGL.

> The underlying JS engine (written by
> experienced programmers) could of course in principle be done in
> Forth. Then you'd have to re-implement Unity3D and so on.

And what's the reason why this can't be done in Forth?  Most things are 
done in popular languages, because most people only know one of the 
popular languages.  This is a social reason why it hasn't been done in 
Forth.

> Note that the existing JS that I know of that uses Forth (Tamarin
> Trace), I think uses Forth only as an intermediate form in a certain
> stage of compilation, with the main engine written in C++.

The JIT is written in Forth; the rest is written in C++.  That's 
probably because the JIT couldn't be written in C++, therefore they 
resorted to Forth, not the other way round.  There usually is a high 
pressure to use "popular" languages both in open source and commercial 
projects, and the rest of the browser is written in C++.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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#15873

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
Message-ID<7xbogk71fc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
In reply to#15872
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> What about writing high level 3d-turtle graphics code?  Forth is not 
> about writing "dup swap + over !", it is about creating domain specific 
> programming languages. 

I don't think they want turtle graphics (it's hard for me to understand
how 3D turtle graphics would mean).  They want rendered, shaded robots
walking around on the screen, that they can replicate, vaporize, etc.

Anyway, Forth is supposedly an amplifier, helpful to the most skillful
programmers but obstructive to the rest.  The idea of Code Hero is that
it teaches everyone to code.  It aims to be an equalizer rather than an
amplifier.  That's a different philosophy than Forth.

>> Then you'd have to re-implement Unity3D and so on.
> And what's the reason why this can't be done in Forth?  

You'd have to ask the Forth programmers who aren't doing it.

> Most things are done in popular languages, because most people only
> know one of the popular languages.  This is a social reason why it
> hasn't been done in Forth.

Other languages burn more machine resources to conserve programmer
effort.  Most programmers consider this a usually-good trade.  Forth
wins in the situations where it's not a good trade.

Take a look at some rubyquiz.com problems sometime, and ask how you
would do them if you were being paid per delivered solution.  Of course
they can all be solved in Forth, but for the most part they can be
solved much more productively in other languages.  (I did a few of them
as Haskell exercises).

>> (Tamarin Trace)
> The JIT is written in Forth; the rest is written in C++.  

What do you mean by "the JIT is written in Forth"?  

> That's probably because the JIT couldn't be written in C++, therefore
> they resorted to Forth, not the other way round.

If Forth was the language they "resorted to" rather than their first
choice, that fits the general picture of Forth's virtue as being able to
go to places where other languages can't, rather than it being able to
deliver comfort and style in the places where other languages can.

> There usually is a high pressure to use "popular" languages both in
> open source and commercial projects, and the rest of the browser is
> written in C++.

But they are aiming to rewrite the browser in a language (Rust) that
currently has even fewer users than Forth.  They see Rust as having
enough technical advantages over C++ that it's worth the change.  They
don't see Forth that way, it's pretty safe to say.

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